Taper crimp die question

[nonferrous]

I read in another thread that using a taper crimp die is not a good idea. I am loading .38 Spl 148 gr wadcutters for my S&W 52 and they have to be flush with the case mouth.
The crimp die that I use for 158 gr semi wc's rolls the mouth a bit and pushes the lead back into the case a few .000's.
It seemed to me that a taper crimp die would do a better job, but I have not picked up a die yet and have never used one.
As I understand it, the die would simply squeeze the brass around the lead, but I really don’t have a clue.
Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks

[HeavyMetal]

I load for a 52 so am familiar with the issue.

First if the case's are not all the same length, read that as trimmed brass, any crimp, roll or taper, is going to be all over the place.

The trick with flush seated wadcutters is to have them below the case mouth, not even or slightly above, but below the case mouth.

For my DEWC boolit I had to make a seating plug to get the job done that has a slight recess allowing it to actually fit into a case mouth.

This does not take much! Most likely .030 to .040 below the case mouth.

Then you roll crimp as needed! The crimp is not to keep the boolit in place but it is an aide to feeding! If you look at mid range wad cutter loads designed for the 52 you'll find they all use a fair amount of roll crimp.

The DEWC has enough bevel on each end that you can actually roll the case right down to match the bevel on the boolit.

I think this is to much crimp and you run the risk of having the crimp actually "shave" lead as the bolit exits the case!

Now you did not say what boolit you were using. The truth is not many choice's are out there.

The HBWC, the DEWC and the button nose wadcutter. All of these will work in the 52 but will require you be creative in seating arrangements.

I don't know if anyone actually makes a taper crimp die for the 38 special. Even if some one does this is a disaster waiting to happen. Usually these dies require way to much work to make them work right.

It's a rare day that I suggest anyone taper crimp and this day is no different!

[Echo]

I use a taper crimp die on some of my 38 loads. It has been a while since I loaded for my Clark 38, and I believe I simply seated the HBWC flush with the neck, and gave it a small crimp (not taper) to get rid of the flare. Feed has never been a problem.

AND GETTING CLOSE TO MY SECOND BOOLIT!

[lwknight]

I prefer the roll crimp with bullets that have a crimp groove because it is 1 less step in the process since it crimps when seating. I did have to use the taper when I loaded WCs because the roll could never be adjusted precisely enough due to case length variation.

For the "J"s in 44mag and 357 mag , its heavy taper crimp only.

[cuzinbruce]

I agree with HeavyMetal. I load for a S&W M52 myself. You want the cases the same length. I trim to the minimum. Then roll crimp them. I use a Redding Profile Crimp die, which is a roll crimp. No trouble feeding at all.

[nonferrous]

Thanks,
The few that I have loaded were From the Lee 148 TL mold and they did function and shoot well. I simply set the lead flush and crimped with the same setting I was using for the 158 gr swc. The crimp rolled the nose in a bit and set the lead back a few .000's. I guess it looks like that is what I was supposed to do.
I am putting an order together and have a taper crimp die on it, looks like the thing to do is take it back off. The reason I asked, is that I know nothing about a taper crimp die, but it just seemed to be the way to finish off the wc load.

[35remington]

There's nothing wrong with a taper crimp die. Used correctly it will not adversely affect the bullet. Since WC's don't need that much in the way of preventing the bullet from being pulled in recoil in an automatic there is little to be condemned and possible advantage in what you are thinking of doing. Perhaps your 52 will tell you if there's a feeding difference between the two, roll or taper?

Perhaps the comments you heard were directed at dies that size and taper crimp at the same time (LFCD) or about overly applied taper crimps.

[KYCaster]

I load for a 52 so am familiar with the issue.

I reloaded for a 52 for a very brief time in the past, so I am somewhat familiar with the issue. I also load 38/357 and 45ACP revolver rounds for use in action games that require a different approach to crimping. More about that later.

And, BTW, I agree with most of what Heavy Metal says.

First if the case's are not all the same length, read that as trimmed brass, any crimp, roll or taper, is going to be all over the place.

Yes, consistent length is essential for consistent crimp and serious bullseye competition is one of the few places where that level of consistency is required. For most applications I consider trimming handgun brass to be unnecessary.

The trick with flush seated wadcutters is to have them below the case mouth, not even or slightly above, but below the case mouth.

For my DEWC boolit I had to make a seating plug to get the job done that has a slight recess allowing it to actually fit into a case mouth.

This does not take much! Most likely .030 to .040 below the case mouth.

Then you roll crimp as needed! The crimp is not to keep the boolit in place but it is an aide to feeding! If you look at mid range wad cutter loads designed for the 52 you'll find they all use a fair amount of roll crimp.

There's the key, right there. "The crimp is not to keep the boolit in place but it is an aide to feeding!"

The DEWC has enough bevel on each end that you can actually roll the case right down to match the bevel on the boolit.

I think this is to much crimp and you run the risk of having the crimp actually "shave" lead as the bolit exits the case!

Now you did not say what boolit you were using. The truth is not many choice's are out there.

The HBWC, the DEWC and the button nose wadcutter. All of these will work in the 52 but will require you be creative in seating arrangements.

I don't know if anyone actually makes a taper crimp die for the 38 special. Even if some one does this is a disaster waiting to happen. Usually these dies require way to much work to make them work right.

Yes, there are taper crimp dies available for 38/357. While not the best choice for loads intended for a M52 I don't understand how a taper crimp "is a disaster waiting to happen".

I've not had any unusual problems getting taper crimp dies to work right, on the contrary, I've found them to be more forgiving of case length and thickness variations than roll crimps.

It's a rare day that I suggest anyone taper crimp and this day is no different!


More about taper crimps. This is not really relevant to your M52 loads, but I want to add it anyway.

In action pistol games, the ability of a round to slide smoothly into the chamber is very desirable. This is more easily accomplished with a taper crimp than it is with a roll crimp. Also, the longer ogive of 9mm bullets is better for quick reloads than the more blunt nose of most 38 bullets, but they lack a crimp groove. It's almost impossible to apply a proper roll crimp to a bullet with no crimp groove, but a taper crimp is simple and effective.

Both methods have their place and I wouldn't dismiss either one for a particular application without considering the advantages of both.

Jerry

[sqlbullet]

Also, to be clear...

A taper crimp die is the only die to properly crimp a cartridge that headspaces on the case mouth, like 9mm, 40S&W, 10mm Auto, and 45 ACP to name a few.

When dealing with a rimmed round, as others have said, it depends.

Also, if you are loading 45 ACP for a S&W 625 and shoot with moon clips, then effectively you are adding a rim to a rimless cartridge and allowing it to headspace off the clip, not the mouth. In this case, a roll crimp may be experimented with and found to be beneficial.

Likewise, with your 38 special, a taper crimp may provide better result in some instances, though the round was designed to have a roll crimp.

[Dannix]

Also, to be clear...

A taper crimp die is the only die to properly crimp a cartridge that headspaces on the case mouth, like 9mm, 40S&W, 10mm Auto, and 45 ACP to name a few.
Quoted for importance.

(as an aside though, at lot of autos headspace on the extractor or leade. Something neat to read up on if you shoot autos)

[MtGun44]

Don't just buy the 'headspace on the extractor" story. Do a bit of actual checking and
measuring, might learn something.

[Dannix]

MtGun44, iirc I read about it on a 1911 forum. Some old timer posted it in response to questions about 'out of spec short' .45 ACP brass. No clue if it's applicable with my plastic guns. I'll have to check some time.

Hasn't been the case in your experience?

[nonferrous]

Thanks,
The die is only 10.00, I am going to get it and try both crimping both ways. You are right, I just might learn something.
Thanks again

[MtGun44]

Dannix,

Much discussed on this forum. I have taken two 1911 uppers off and done some
looking and measuring. Not possible with the shortest brass you could ever imagine
"normally" having and definitely not with the shortest brass I have ever found. Not
that I spent the last 6 months measure brass to find the shortest in captivity.

Just do some looking and measuring before you believe this old story that gets passed
on by people that haven't investigated it. Sounds good.

To my satisfaction, for 1911s, it is not the typical situation, which is the basic claim.
Could it happen, possibly but only with something like .45 GAP brass, not normal
brass.

Bill