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View Full Version : Armi Sport Sharps...any good?



WBH
08-23-2006, 03:29 PM
A friend of mine is interested in buying a 1874 Sharps in 45-70. He will probably use smokeless and BP in the gun. Since I have no experience with that manufacturer (imported by Taylors) I though I would ask. All my RB's are originals, and the Sharps I have is a Pedersoli.

Any comments out there on the quality etc.

powderburnerr
08-23-2006, 03:40 PM
the quality is a bit less than your pedersoli but will work if it is done right .. some come with chambers off center and such ,, that said . if they are done right they are accurate and decent for the price. just check it closely before purchaceing...Dean

WBH
08-23-2006, 03:54 PM
It is a special order item from his gun shop. I would hope they would allow him to refuse it if it was poorly chambered etc.....but he'll have to clarify it first.

montana_charlie
08-23-2006, 04:38 PM
I understand that some Armi Sport guns are pretty good, but even the best don't quite measure up to the Pedersoli. Of course, they sell a bit cheaper, too.

I have two .22 rimfire rifles. Neither is a target gun...but you'll never see me in a rimfire competition, anyway.

If your friend wants a Sharps-pattern rifle to have fun with, the Armi Sport (if it's not a lemon) will probably do him fine.
But, if he has more 'precise' plans...that Pedersoli barrel is worth the $200 difference.
CM

KCSO
08-23-2006, 04:39 PM
All the Armi Sports I have gotten lately were chambered properly and the barrells are good. Where they fall down is on the details. The guns have the old sharps breech block without a bushed firing pin and no gas shield. With smokless loads this could lead to pierced primers. The set triggers are rough and need adjusting and honing and the mainsprings in the lock need to have the machine marks polished out and lightened. The difference in price between the armi sport and the uberti is about 300 bucks. If you can do the above work yourself you can save some money, if you have to pay to have the corrections made you won't. Ooops I forgot the bores are a little rough and need lapped for cast shooting.

windwalker
08-24-2006, 07:05 AM
i looked at there site last year they say there sharps colection has a 1 in 560 mm twist =1in 22 inches to slow for big bullets heres the page.
bernie:-D
http://www.armisport.com/eng/dettaglioA.asp?idSottoFamiglia=38

Boz330
08-24-2006, 08:32 AM
Are these the guns made by IAB? If so a local gunshop here had a bunch of the rejects that had been returned and were selling them real cheap, $250. Myself and 2 friends bought some of them with the idea of trying to get them to shoot. As someone pointed out the innards were real rough, springs probably won't hold up long and all of the chambers were WAY oversized. You could probably get an extra 8gr of powderin the cases after fire forming them. The barrels were pretty smooth though. Unless you want something to tinker with I would go with the Pedersoli for the difference. I sold mine before I even fired it.
WBH, ask Hoff about these, he did the work on them, and he was real concerned about the springs. Again though I'm not sure that these are the same guns.

Bob

KCSO
08-24-2006, 09:57 AM
Ari Sport has changed to a 1-18 twist I confired this by measuring mine, as to 1-22 being somehow bad, the military used that in the trapdoor and seemed to get along. The 1-18 twist comes into it's own with bullets from 500 and up, the 1-22 has always worked well for me with 405's. These are not IAB's some of which had chambers marked 45-70 and cut 45-120.

powderburnerr
08-24-2006, 10:27 AM
While all sharps pattern rifles are prone to break fireing pins the armi sports are the worst offenders . I replaced a couple of them in a year for my neighbor then turned one fron a drill bit ..it is still going so far .. so stock up on them...... dean

montana_charlie
08-24-2006, 03:32 PM
Are these the guns made by IAB?
No. Pedersoli and Armi Sport are numbers 1 & 2 in the Italian Sharps lineup, and then there is IAB (which might be the same as Pedretti & Sons...I'm not sure).

IAB is/was so bad, the Italian gunmaker's guild had been trying (for years) to make them improve their product. I think they recently did some improving, and the guns being marketed after that change are called their 'Hartford' model.
I don't know how bad they were to start with...or how much better they are now.
I do know I have never liked the way they look...
CM

threett1
08-26-2006, 10:45 PM
I have one of the Armi Sharps in 40/65. Got it used off a guy who was a collector of some cool stuff like drillings and such. Anyways, I love my Armi Sharps. It looks good and shoots great. Don't know how old it is but prob not more than 5-6 yrs. No roughness and seems to be a fairly smooth barrel. Very easy clean up. I shoot only Swiss black and cast.

jerdog53
09-15-2006, 12:31 PM
You know I have a .54 muzzle loader that shoots as well as I can hold it made by these folks.

Black Prince
09-27-2006, 09:58 PM
Armi Sports recently changed the design on their firing pins that were prone to breaking. ( They made them bigger.) I have an old one and broke the firing pin after about 500 rounds. The good news is that the pins are cheap (about seven bucks if I remember right) and easy to replace (all you need is a small screwdriver to remove one screw) so I bought a half dozen pins along with an extra extractor and keep them in my range box. The rifle shoots fine and I have had no problems with accuracy. I shoot black powder duplex loads where legal and only BP where it is required. My Taylor Sharps rifle is competetive with rifles costing twice (or more) its price. I've shot a friends Pedersolli a lot and I can tell no difference in the rifles except that he has not broken a firing pin.

I've discovered that it isn't so much what the rifle cost as how well the shooter can shoot and how well he can cast and load his ammo. Good ammo is as critical as the quality of the barrel. The sights on the Pedersolli seem to be of better quality than those on my Taylor ( they are furnished by Taylor also) and good sights are important.

If you are going to be doing serious shooting in matches, you may want to pop the extra bucks for the Pedersolli, but I shoot with those guys almost every weekend and beat them about as often as they beat me so . . . ???

highwallbo
11-03-2006, 10:22 PM
NO,
Armi sport guns are for pointing in the air during re-enactments not for hitting any kind of target.
Oh and cowboy shooters love them,they can hit things the size of 55gal. drum @ 50yds.

willdixon
03-29-2008, 03:17 PM
Hi hiwallbo -

Thank you for your input, I do appreciate it.

And I am certainly not arguing with you at all; only seeking knowledge.

Which particular Armi Sport Sharps model did you own which was so terrible?

Thank you very much.

Gene

willdixon
03-29-2008, 05:27 PM
Hi Windwalker -

I don't know about earlier times, but today TAYLOR'S AND COMPANY AND ARMI SPORT advertise their Sharps collection with 1/18" twist with 6 grooves. See http://www.taylorsfirearms.com/products/cfSharps.tpl

Best wishes,

Gene

montana_charlie
03-29-2008, 06:47 PM
Hi hiwallbo -

Which particular Armi Sport Sharps model did you own which was so terrible?

Gene
Gene,
Having done a fairly complete perusal of highwallbo's 'BPCR body of work', it is apparent that he is very satisfied with at least one rebuilt 'roller'; three Shiloh rifles; and a Pedersoli-made Gibbs muzzleloader. His only clearly voiced regret is that the Gibbs was not built by Shiloh.

I would imagine he has not owned one of the Armi Sport rifles that you are asking about, probably has not fired any Italian-made BPCR, and lives by his stated mantra which says, "The Italians do beautiful shotguns, but they can't fit or finish rifles for pasta."

Perhaps I'm wrong...
CM

willdixon
03-30-2008, 12:00 PM
Hi CM -

Thanks for the thoughts; I'm sure you're correct.

I can't wait for my Armi Sport Quigley 50/90 to get here, so I can REALLY evaluate it first hand, and post my studied opinion of it - good or bad.

Best wishes,
Gene

montana_charlie
04-02-2008, 04:42 PM
Due to the fact that I am healing up from some surgery, I am spending the bulk of my days at the computer. So, I was killin' time on the gun auction sites when I ran across some pretty pictures.

You guys know that Uberti is buying their Sharps rifles from Pedersoli. And, they can specify details on the ones they take to put their logo on.
Well, the link below will take you to a sale (on Gun Broker) where a Uberti Sharps with some fancy work is for sale.

I am posting it in this thread because of that statement I quoted earlier, from a guy who feels the Italians are capable of good 'fit and finish' on shotguns...but not on rifles.

What do you think...?
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=96379918

CM

WBH
04-02-2008, 08:55 PM
I own 2 Pedersoli rifles for about 5 years now. One is a RB and the other a Sharps. Both shoot extremely well.

I would surely buy a Shiloh for that kind of $$$, just to say I have one. Though I probably wouldn't shoot any better with it than my Pedersolis.

I do have a few custom Remington RB's (original actions) that are superb shooters with cut rifled barrels and custom wood. But none reach the $3700 mark.

willdixon
04-04-2008, 08:06 PM
YEEEHAWWWW - EAT CROW, DUDE! (That's ME talking to myself, understand!)

My much coveted ARMI SPORT QUIGLEY 50 - 2.50 arrived today, ARE YOU LISTENING HIWALLBO? YOU WERE DEAD WRONG BUDDY! You said they were only good for shooting up in the air and hitting 55 gallon drums at 50 yards.

WELL YOU WERE WRONG!

BECAUSE MY NEW ONE WON'T SHOOT AT ALL!!!!!! UP IN THE AIR OR OTHERWISE. IT WON'T SHOOT!!!!

You can cock the hammer on it, but you can't pull the trigger.

You can't pull either trigger.

They don't work.

THE RIFLE CANNOT BE FIRED!

I'm sending it back for a refund - not for repair - and I'm going to listen to the rest of you guys, and move on up in the price range.

Forgive my stupidity.

Gene

Don McDowell
04-04-2008, 11:59 PM
Aahyup seen that one comin along time ago.

Bullshop
04-05-2008, 12:16 AM
Ah thank ya be a hurtin anuf so ah wont be a oferin any toldyaso.
Only jest wana wish best a luk nex try.
God bless ya!
BIC/**

montana_charlie
04-05-2008, 02:23 PM
I probably couldn't bear to send that rifle back without examining the trigger group...to find out the 'why' of it. The mechanism is not very complicated, and the problem might be easily rectified.

But, I can't blame you for deciding to leave it alone...for refund purposes.
CM

willdixon
04-05-2008, 04:17 PM
Charlie, I would not want to keep any brand new firearm which was inoperable the first day I bought it. If it won't fire the first day, think what'll happen in five years.

Yes, I know set triggers; I honed two sets of them 61 years ago when I was a kid.

I simply do not want to start out with a useless rifle.

But I certainly understand your thoughts, and I thank you for your input.

Gene

Turboman
04-05-2008, 04:51 PM
Dang it man,ID HAVE TO LOOK AT THE TRIGGER THO iffin it was me,Ive got a feeling its something simple,PLEASE remeber u have to pull the rear trigger first OR IT WILL NOT FIRE.
JEFF

willdixon
04-05-2008, 05:35 PM
Jeff, dear boy, I bought my first two Kentucky squirrel rifles in 1945, and just for fun, I honed both of the sets of triggers on the two rifles. I know all about set triggers.

But I do not want a new rifle which will not fire the day you bring it home from the store. And I do not want to buy any rifle from any company who sells new rifles which which will not fire the day they sell them

OF COURSE I could repair it, BUT I DO NOT WANT TO HAVE TO REPAIR A BRAND NEW RIFLE - I WANT IT TO AT LEAST SHOOT THE DAY I BUY IT.

The guys who said the ARMI SPORT is junk were obviously largely correct.

At least this one is.

SO I DON'T WANT IT.

Thanks anyway,

Gene

badgeredd
04-05-2008, 06:04 PM
willdixon,
I am with you on the rifle! If it isn't firable out of the box, then the manufacturer has some SERIOUS quality control problems. Fixable, likely. Should you, NO hell no! I love my Pedersoli but if I were more affluent there'd be a Shiloh here, just cause.

montana_charlie
04-05-2008, 07:37 PM
PLEASE remeber u have to pull the rear trigger first OR IT WILL NOT FIRE.
Not true, Jeff. At least it's not supposed to be true. If you have a DST rifle that will not fire from the front trigger alone, there is something out of adjustment on it.
CM

willdixon
04-05-2008, 08:09 PM
No, sorry....

It's more than mere "adjustment" Charlie.

And yes, on most double set triggers, in an emergency you can fire the weapon by pulling on only the front trigger. But it is a much heavier pull, when it has not been set by the rear set trigger.

Gene

floodgate
04-05-2008, 10:09 PM
...and some set trigger systems (mostly for target arms) will not fire from the un-set position at all.

Fg

WBH
04-07-2008, 11:08 AM
Well, I hope you can recoup your shipping costs and FFL fees if charged. Some places won't pay for return shipping. Good Luck.

willdixon
04-07-2008, 12:14 PM
Thank you for your kind words WBH...

After this rifle has been received by the selling dealer, and after we've gotten the charge off our credit card, I'll let you know how it all went.

Black Prince
04-07-2008, 04:35 PM
Gene

Contact Sixgun Jeff. He get's some good deals on things and usually knows where you can get stuff at the best price.

Don't dispair. Hell, you could be playing golf and wearing those bright colored britches those people usually wear.

Best to you pard.

willdixon
04-07-2008, 04:49 PM
BLACK PRINCE, YOU'VE FINALLY GONE TOO FAR!

I'd take up KNITTING before I'd play golf or wear those silly pantaloons!

But things are lookin' up.

My dealer has just found a new Pedersoli in 50/90, and I reckon he'll order it in the morning.

Speaking of which, some of my friends tease me about goin' so big as a 50/90. But just take a look at this MEACHAM FEFTEEN POUND 50/120 - REPEAT 50/120 - located about 2/3rds the way down this page: http://www.meachamrifles.com/

I'd post a picture of this gorgeous rifle, but I don't know how - duhhhhhh.

I'd give one or two parts of my BODY for that baby!

WBH
04-07-2008, 05:51 PM
Gene.............that's a 50-140............but who's counting.

My 50-90 weighs almost 16 pounds. Just a gentle shove:-D

willdixon
04-07-2008, 06:10 PM
Yeah - 50 - 140!

I can't think in those big numbers!

willdixon
04-07-2008, 07:50 PM
WOW! If any of you Pedersoli owners or lovers have not seen the nifty pictoral factory tour of Pedersoli, you need to go take a look at it.

VERY INTERESTING! http://www.bpcr.net/site_photos/2004_Pedersoli_images/pages/47_jpg.htm

Bullshop
04-07-2008, 11:27 PM
Black Prince
Is that a Japanese Browning/Winchester? Custom stocked? The stock cut looks factory but the wood sure dont.
BIC/**

willdixon
04-07-2008, 11:49 PM
None of the above - it's a Meacham.

See http://www.meachamrifles.com/

Black Prince
04-08-2008, 08:19 PM
Yep Bullshop. It's a factory Jap made Browning BPCR. I can't afford a Mecham. I can buy a good used pickin' up truck for what one of those costs. It came out of the Browning box with the wood just like what you see and I have seen at least a half dozen others with as nice, or almost so, factory wood on them. Every one of them that I've seen all shoot VERY GOOD. It is the most reasonably priced, GOOD, BPCR rifle out there and in my opinion, under rated.

All I did was have Lee Shaver do a trigger job and have him change the lever contours from the stock "S" lever to the one you see. He left the Browning trademark on the lever and refilled it with gold. When people see it, it blows them away because they want to know why their Browning isn't like that.

I remember when Browning stopped making these and they were selling at closeout for $960 bucks, hand lapped Badger barrels, fancy select grade wood and all!! At the time, I had a Browning Traditional Hunter with absolutely drop dead wood on it , so I wasn't interested in BPCR's until I got interested in silloutte shooting and the prices for them had gone up quiet a bit. But I'm always ahead of the curve like that. Hee, hee. Gun trader I AIN'T!!!

But what the heck? I have it now and I'm happy; the guy I got it from is happy, so it was a good deal for everyone and that is the way a deal ought to be as far as I'm concerned.

After I got this Browning rifle, I put my Sharps in the gun safe and didn't use it. I was at the shooting contest of the Church of the Painful Truth last year and a young hard working man with four children was there. I could see that he wanted to get into this kind of shooting, so I gave him my Sharps and all the stuff he needed to cast and load for it. They say it's better to give than receive and if you could have seen his face when he opened it ( I still had the box it came in and the rifle looked new with no dings or scratches on it) you would know that statement is true. He shot very well at the annual meeting of the church this year and I even managed to win second place myownself, poor eye sight and all. The young man who actually won first place ( shooting an Armi Sports - Taylor Imported Sharps replica in 45-70 with soulie sights I might add) was 20 points ahead of me and is a past two time national champion shooter, so he steped aside and they actually awarded me the first place trophy. Believe it or not, I bought the Browning from him! I didn't earn the trophy, but I have it anyway. Sometimes things just work out that way. Karma and all that I guess.

willdixon
04-08-2008, 08:29 PM
Sorry guys, when Meacham said in his web site, "we finished it last fall", I thought that meant he had built it.

Sorry about that.

Black Prince, what please is this Church of the Painful Truth? Sounds interesting!

Gene

Bullshop
04-08-2008, 08:58 PM
Black Prince
You aint neather no black prince. God bless ya you got the holy spirate in ya, praise God!
Dont get me wrong pard I wernt bad mouthin yer gun no way. I got me one too and its a winner for sure. Its just that when I saw the pic of your gun and it had the same cut to the stock, same checkering and the same case color as mine thought it must be same as mine just spruced up a bit. Thats a fine lookin rifle and I know first hand how they shoot. Browning done their home work on that one. They gave us out of the box what gunsmiths had been doing to trick out hiwalls. The only thing I dont like about the new ones is the rebounding hammer. The older b-78 didnt have it, they have a half cock like the origonal hiwall. Reason is with the relativly light hammer the rebound spring robs some hammer energy. It dont ammount to much and dont matter most of the time but when ya shoot at -30f like we often do it does make a differance.
That inconsistant hammer fall plays havoc with extream velocity spread.
For normal folks, yup I aint normal, it wont never matter.
If yer wonderin there is a bright side to livin here in the cold. We save lots a $ on refrigeration and air conditioning.
God bless ya Sir, yer a good man! See ya there someday.
BIC/**

willdixon
04-09-2008, 01:33 PM
Yeah, Montana Charlie, you're exactly right about the Uberti firearms. And, by the way, I have owned an Uberti 1871 .44 Navy Dragoon for 15 years or so, and it is an utterly gorgeous piece of machinery, in every detail, and with better ballistics than a .357 Magnum!

But I just spent the last few days with my local Uberti dealer, who tried all over America to get an Uberti Quigley 50/90 for me, but couldn't find one anywhere.

So - even though they're terrific, and a little less than Pedersoli - they're very difficult or impossible to locate in stock.

montana_charlie
04-09-2008, 02:24 PM
But I just spent the last few days with my local Uberti dealer, who tried all over America to get an Uberti Quigley 50/90 for me, but couldn't find one anywhere.
Frankly, I haven't ever seen a Uberti-branded Sharps that was chambered for any cartirdge other than .45/70. They may have branched out far enough (by now) to include .45/90, but I haven't seen one advertised, yet.

I also haven't seen any real price difference between the Uberti and Pedersoli rifles.

There may be an advantage in ordering a Uberti if a local store has a Uberti supplier, but none for Pedersoli. Other than that, I see no particular reason to search for a Uberti-branded Sharps.
On the other hand, if a guy happens upon a Sharps that carries the Uberti name, he can be (pretty) sure it was made by Pedersoli.

I say "pretty sure" because if the gun is a couple of years old, it just may be one of the first batch offered by Uberti...the ones built by Armi Sport.
If he bumps into one of those, he will know the maker by the shape of the lever.
CM

willdixon
04-09-2008, 02:53 PM
You may be right, Charlie, but the dealer didn't mention anything to me about UBERTI SHARPS being available only in 45/70. He just said he couldn't find a 50/90

And - ha ha - to make matters a tad more complex, I have the big and beautiful UBERTI catalog right here on my desk, and it shows all the 7 or 8 UBERTI SHARPS models, including the "DOWN UNDER" (which was a 50/100, I believe). BUT THE UBERTI CATALOG IS PUBLISHED BY BINELLI FIREARMS!

Who knows....

willdixon
04-10-2008, 06:14 PM
These Italian conglomerate firearms manufacturers indeed weave a tangled web! Nothing untoward, you understand, only complicated.

My new PEDERSOLI SHARPS QUIGLEY 50/90 is due to be delivered Monday.

I returned my ARMI SPORT.

But the PERDESOLI QUIGLEY comes with only the open hunting sights, so I ordered a set of UBERTI LONG RANGE SIGHTS, and they arrived today. IN A PEDERSOLI BOX WITH PEDERSOLI INSTRUCTIONS.

By the way, being brand dumb new at BPCR and PEDERSOLIS and SHARPS, I've got upwards of a million questions to ask SOMEBODY about my 50/90, but I hate annoying all the bright shootists on the forum with my stupid questions.

So, if any of you owns a PEDERSOLI SHARPS 50/90, and have nothing better to do, I'd dearly love to chat with you by email. I'm at oldmanriver@alltel.net. Our home is right on the bank of the grand old Rebel Suwannee River, and thus the "oldmanriver".

Thank you very much.

montana_charlie
04-10-2008, 08:02 PM
So, if any of you owns a PEDERSOLI SHARPS 50/90, and have nothing better to do, I'd dearly love to chat with you by email.
I think you already have my email address, and (as I am healing from some surgery) I have some time on my hands.

I can answer questions about Pedersoli Sharps...just not the 50/90 part.
And, I can answer questions about Pedersoli sights, if you have any.

One 'sight question' is regularly asked by guys who are making changes, and I'll provide the answer (in case you need it) right now.

Tap out the blade sight out from left to right (as you look from breech to muzzle), and tap the new globe sight in from right to left.

CM

willdixon
04-10-2008, 10:36 PM
Sorry Charlie -

I greatly appreciate your concern - but I happen to have the Pedersoli sight poop sheet in my hand. It's called "USA 426. INSTALLATION AND ADJUSTMENT OF FRONT SPIRIT LEVE SIGHT #USA 426".

And, inter alia, it says, "The sight should be inserted from the left side of the barrel and if necessary, use a wood dowel rod or suitable soft object to tap the sight into final position."

Ah well. . . .

montana_charlie
04-10-2008, 10:58 PM
I won't argue with the poop from Pedersoli.
Do they tell you which end of the barrel you should be looking from when you decide which is the left side?

If you have the gun mounted in a vise, and you are standing at the muzzle end with the muzzle pointed at your belly button, you are in a natural position for working on the sight.

When standing that way, I will agree that the side which is to your left is the proper side to insert the sight from.
CM

willdixon
04-10-2008, 11:03 PM
Yeah - see Charlie - you're smarter than I am.

I hadn't even thought about that.

But yes, you were right and I was wrong. Sorry about that.

montana_charlie
04-11-2008, 11:52 AM
I was wrong.
They say "it takes a big man to admit"...that his poop was coming out backward.
CM

Sixgunjeff
04-14-2008, 05:44 PM
willdixon, did you get your rifle today?

Black Prince
04-17-2008, 09:25 PM
Dang!!! I hate it when that happens. A wooley booger got Will and toted him off.

I wonder what happened to his rifle?

Bullshop
04-17-2008, 11:30 PM
He has been having a booger of a time getting stuff he needs.
I think he mighta lost it and went and womped on his dealer.
His 50/90 bug was infectous, I cought it too.
Blessings
BIC/**

willdixon
04-18-2008, 11:37 AM
Mornin' BLACK PRINCE -

No, not dragged off quite yet, but been a tad under the weather last couple of weeks.

I'm 77 and the lyin', thievin', snake-oil salesmen tell me I've only got five more months to live. Ha ha I'll bet they'd give me an extension on that if I don't pay their bills by then.

Just a little slow lately.... sorry about that....

Black Prince
04-18-2008, 09:50 PM
Wal Will, ah know that you are a lawyer, but we won't tell the state bar assocation if you give us a simple answer like "YES" I have my rifalgun or "NO" I don't have my rifalgun, so maybe they won't disbar you.

Wal MAYBE they won't!!!.

On second thought . . . Hilary and Obama are lawyers. Maybe ya oughta jiss not say anything.

willdixon
04-23-2008, 04:53 PM
WELL I RECKON IF IT WEREN'T FOR MY BAD LUCK, I WOULDN'T HAVE ANY LUCK AT ALL.

Brand new Starline brass won't chamber in this brand new PEDERSOLI SHARPS QUIGLEY 50/90.

Any of you ever heard of this problem?

Thank you!

montana_charlie
04-23-2008, 05:11 PM
Well, I have been following you around the internet. Several have mentioned a chamber cast as a good first step, and here is a situation that makes it seem like a mandatory one.

Only by knowing the shape of the 'hole' can we decide what is in need of changing...brass, or rifle.
(Could they have sent you a .50/70, or a .45/90?)

Is your brass 'too fat' or 'too long' to go into chamber?
CM

willdixon
04-23-2008, 07:02 PM
Thank you Montana Charlie -

But I just now full sized all this Starline brass - three times for each shell, just in case. And it WILL chamber. Just barely, but it WILL chamber.

I'd buy some additional brass from a different maker, but there is nothing other than Starline available in 50/2.50 or longer, alas.

Thank you!

waksupi
04-23-2008, 09:07 PM
Did they send .50 Basic, that needs trimmed to length?

montana_charlie
04-23-2008, 10:11 PM
I just now full sized all this Starline brass - three times for each shell, just in case. And it WILL chamber. Just barely, but it WILL chamber.
In posts on other forums, you mentioned that your new brass is a touch short of 2.5 inches. After that full-length sizing, it may have grown enough to tickle you pink...or make you see red, if it is now too long.

I would not trim it yet, if it does measure longer than 2.5". Instead, fireform it with packed COW for a bullet. Then see what it's length is...compared to that chamber cast you intend to make.

The next trick will be to see how much it shortens when fired.
CM

willdixon
04-23-2008, 10:48 PM
WOW - CHARLIE!

See, I'm so new and dumb about all this BPCR loading business. I hadn't even thought of re-measuring the brass after full-length sizing. I would not have assumed it would have made any difference, BUT....

YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY CORRECT: EACH SHELL DID STRETCH OUT TO THE 2.50"!

And yes, I'll go ahead and fire form them now, but what is this "COW" business? Have I got to go shoot a bunch of cows?

Thank you.

Boz330
04-24-2008, 07:51 AM
COW is cream of wheat. I am not sure how much powder for forming but basicly you put smokeless in the case and COW on top and compress it, no boolit.
Fire this from the gun and it will fire form the cases to your chamber.
With BP all you should have to do is neck size or just stick a boolit in the case after loading all of the other components.

Bob

willdixon
04-24-2008, 09:39 AM
Thank you very much, Bob -

But no, I don't have any smokeless powder, and wouldn't have any idea how to do that COW bit properly, so I'll just load them up with lead when everything else is ready. Simpler for me.

Is that you with the parachute? I took up skydiving at age 65, with an Accellerated Freefall Course, and was just doing great! But, on my 9th jump I had a major heart attack and had to be helioed to an hospital for a triple bypass - terminating my skydive career - darn it!

Thanks again....

Sixgunjeff
04-24-2008, 10:59 AM
Willdixon have you found the bullets you were wanting? Do you still intend to use paper patch?

montana_charlie
04-24-2008, 12:11 PM
I hadn't even thought of re-measuring the brass after full-length sizing. I would not have assumed it would have made any difference, BUT....
Will,
A brass case can be likened to two ounces of water in a container.
Pour the water in a wide jar, and it has a certain depth. Call that the water column height.
Move that same volume of water into a narrow bottle, and the column height increases.

Your brass was initially too fat...like water in the jar, and you made it more narrow by resizing...like pouring it into the narrow bottle.
Since the amount of brass did not change, it had to take on a different length (or brass column height) when the case became 'narrower'

When you fire that brass, it will fatten to fill the diameter of your chamber.
If it fattens only a little, the length will not decrease much, but there will be a change.

Back when you reported success in getting your cases to chamber after resizing, you said they "just barely" chambered.
I am curious about what you meant by "just barely".

Care to expand on that?

CM

willdixon
04-24-2008, 12:22 PM
Yeah, I can see that now that you showed me, but I had not thought of the cases lengthening just because I full-lengh sized them. But obviously I just didn't have my brain in gear.

BUT NOW LEMME' ASK YOU ANOTHER QUESTION.

Everything I have read says the stock Sharps 50/90 brass is designed for bullets .512" in diameter. E.g., there's a spec sheet on 50/90 cartridges at http://www.accuratearms.com/data/PerCaliber2Guide/Rifle/ObsoleteCartridges/50%2090%20Sharps%20pages%20368%20and%20369.pdf which shows this.

NOW I KNOW YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO ONLY USE APPROXIMATELY BORE DIAMETER BULLETS FOR PAPER PATCH, SO HOW TO YOU LOAD BORE DIAMETER BULLETS IN SHELLS MADE FOR .512" DIAMETER BULLETS?

Thank you.

will

Boz330
04-24-2008, 12:39 PM
Will, that way works as well.
Yes that is me. I was the last one on the ground on the last day of operation of a drop zone that I worked at since August 1969. This was July15, 07. A pretty emotional day for all involved. The grass strip was started by WWII vets in 46, now it is going to be a rock quarry. Just what the world needs another hole in the ground.

Bob

montana_charlie
04-24-2008, 05:46 PM
BUT NOW LEMME' ASK YOU ANOTHER QUESTION.
Ok, but you didn't answer mine...about your cases "barely chambering".

NOW I KNOW YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO ONLY USE APPROXIMATELY BORE DIAMETER BULLETS FOR PAPER PATCH, SO HOW TO YOU LOAD BORE DIAMETER BULLETS IN SHELLS MADE FOR .512" DIAMETER BULLETS?
To start with, you are going to use very soft bullets...maybe even pure lead...so they are going to 'bump up' to some degree when fired.

Secondly, and this is the whole point of the 'paper patch', you will wrap a couple layers of paper around the bullet.

If that paper is (say) 3 thousandths thick, one wrap will 'fatten' the bullet by 6 thousandths. (You gotta consider the paper on both side of a bullet when measuring that.) Two wraps will give you an increase of 12 thousandths.

That is enough to fill the groove diameter (.512") of a .50 caliber barrel if you started with a .500" diameter bullet.

Actually, many paper patchers start with a bullet less than bore diameter (.500") and patch it up to a point where it is still less than groove (.512) by a generous amount.

Some of those guys start with such an undersized bullet, it is barely over bore diameter after patching.
The bullet 'bumping up' handles the final fit when it's fired.

This is an answer from a guy who has never paper patched. There is much more to learn...but not from me.

CM

Boz330
04-24-2008, 06:00 PM
The guys that shoot the long range MLs use paper patched boolits that slide down the bore from just the weight of the ramrod. Those are shot out to 1000+ yds. They say that recovered boolits will be groove diameter from one end to the other, so they definately bump up.

Bob

willdixon
04-24-2008, 08:02 PM
THANK YOU CHARLIE AND BOB -

Sorry I didn't answer your question, Charlie. The cases were too fat, and you couldn't push them into the chamber all the way by hand. But then, when I full-length sized them, they WILL chamber okay.

BOB, yes, I've heard about the pros using "loose" bullets in their MLs. But I've also read this is true with some of the award winning Sharps black powder cartridge shooters, i.e., their bore diameter or slightly less than bore diameter bullets will move up and down inside the bore with ease. I'm just not used to that idea, but I'm catching on.

Thanks a million.

will

montana_charlie
04-25-2008, 01:59 AM
For everybody who has been following along, you have seen more than one mention of cases that can be too short for a chamber.

If that is a problem you have, see my thread at...
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=20646
CM

willdixon
05-26-2008, 10:05 AM
Okay, BLACK PRINCE, you wanted to know: I've loaded up my first 20 rounds of long-range, ready to fire tomorrow. I wish I knew how to post pictures on here, 'cause the shots of these rounds look gorgeous.

They are:

BACO .492" mould
650gn
1.44" long
20:1 lead:tin
Brass Starline, annealed, full sized (had to; they wouldn't chamber), weighed, measured, deburred
All bullets within .5gn of each other, indexed in cases
Primers Federal 215 Large Magnum Rifle
Cartridges will be indexed in chamber
Powder 122gn Swiss 1.5, dropped slowly through 2' drop tube
Patch BACO 9# dry wrapped; not lubed; I'll leave a little lube in the bore after each shot perhaps.
Over powder wad - two .030 veggie wads, no other wads nor grease cookies.
Clean bore after each shot, NAPA + water
Compress powder .085
Bullets seated .285, bullets high up into rifling.

I know, not everyone is going to agree with these paramaters, but I'm excited with these for starters. Also, I've got to go in for my second open-heart surgery June 9th (to get a pig's valve), and I just didn't have any more time. My surgery chances are dismal.

Black Prince
05-26-2008, 11:52 AM
Wal, JUST DANG!!!! It sounds like you have been doing some reading and research and have put together some loads that ought to shoot good.

But ahhhhh, Will, you probably doan hafta worry about that heart surgery. If shooting a 650 grain bullet powered by 122 grains of Swiss 1.5 and the fire started with a Federal 215-M doan kill ya, ain't nuthin' gonna. That is gonna be one ash kickin' load!

I'll be ah prayin' fer you pard. Dang shore will.
All the best.

willdixon
05-26-2008, 01:07 PM
Ha ha - yeah, Black prince - you're right. If I shoot tomorrow I'll have to go in for a shoulder operation before the open-heart surgery! Worst part is, I've ordered one of those jive space-age butt stock recoil pads and a matching strap-on shoulder pad, but they haven't gotten here yet.

BUT HEY, REMEMBER, I AM A FORMER UNITED STATES MARINE, AND WHEN IT GETS TOO TOUGH FOR EVERYONE ELSE, IT'S JUST RIGHT FOR US! smile.

Seriously, when we lived up in wilderness Alaska, I shot my .460 Weatherby Magnum a lot, and I just can't believe this'll kick much more than that! That was a real killer! No one can fire a .460 Weatherby Magnum more than 4 or 5 rounds in any one day, without building up an enormous subdural hemotoma. But I don't care about recoil; I won't be shooting in any organized matches where you have to run off 20 rounds or so at a time. If I can only handle 5 shots a day - that'll be just fine with me. And, in order to gain more and better long range capability, I'm willing to dump in more powder and a heavier bullet. My entire thing is simply to see how small groups I can develop at the 1000 yard private range I'll be using near here.

I've lost your email address. Email me at oldmanriver@alltel.net, and I'll send you these shots of my loads. You'll like 'em!

Yes, and thank you, pal, for your prayers. I may not make it, but at least I'll be going out doin' what I like best!

Later

Black Prince
05-26-2008, 04:45 PM
There are no former Marines. Once a Marine, always a Marine. Since it's memorial Day, let me tell you a story about my neighbor who is an 83 year old Marine from Alabama. He was one of the original Marine raiders.

When he was 76, his son gave him an Uzi semi-auto 9mm. He wanted me to take him out to shoot it, so I took him to a friends place who trained law dogs on how to do down and dirty shooting as a private instructor. (He was a Navy Seal and knew a few things about fighting.) We set up a standard silloutte target and started walking down the range and stopped at the 50 yard mark. Mike, the old Marine, just kept walking and started down the driveway. So we tagged along to see where he was going to stop. He stopped about 100 yards from the target.

So my buddy who trains law dogs says, now just keep your attention on the sights and squeeze the trigger. Mike looked at him and said, boy, you just watch and see how it's done. With that he cranked off 10 rounds in a steady timed fire rate from the off-hand position. My buddy looked at the target with his binoculars and said, uhhhhh, looks like we are gonna hafta move up some until you can get it zeroed because there isn't a single bullet hole in the center, or anywhere I can see. The silloutte target has the bullseys and scoring rings in the middle of the stomach area and sure enough, there were no holes in it.

Mike looked at us and said, well dam it, there shouldn't be and bullet holes in the center of the stomach. Look up there between his eyes and tell me what you see because I was shooting at his head. There were 10 bullet holes across the forehead of that dam target!!! The old Marnie grined and said, do you boys want to try? So we did and it was a chore to keep those rounds in the stomach area from off-hand at that range shooting that dern uzi with the fold up stock and I know that I could not have duplicated his marksmanship.

Mike just celebrated his 84th birthday last week. He still drinks, smokes, and I wouldn't cross that old bastard for anything. He is the honest to God real deal in a time and place when we just don't have any of those guys left anymore. And as Charlie Askins (the younger) used to say, " and more's the pity!"

I'm excited about your project Will, dang shore am. Let us all know how those loads shoot. BTW, I have one of those slip-on recoil sissy pads too, and they are well worth having. This is supposed to be fun and not punishment. We old farts need to pay attention to that because we doan heal up like we used to.

willdixon
05-26-2008, 05:21 PM
No, I can tell you weren't in the Corps.

We Marines have a thing: You never say, "I am an ex-Marine"; the correct terminology is, "I am a former Marine". Trust me, I'm very proud of my time in the Corps, and even have a shadow box on my wall with all my medals and such, and even a photo of the Commanding General giving me a special Medal of Commendation.

My grandson is just about to graduate from the United States Naval Academy, and will be going into the Corps as a career grunt officer! And my baby daughter, also an Academy graduate, is a career Navy Officer about to do her fourth tour in the Middle East. She was the Ops Officer aboard the USS Lake Erie, and in charge of the operation of shooting down that satellite recently. Of course the show was really run by civilian NASA engineers on her ship, but she was technically in charge of the ooperation. Am I proud?

I love the sound of your old Marine pal. Remember, I'm 77, and he and I probably served at the same time.

Later....

Black Prince
05-26-2008, 07:15 PM
Well!!! I stand corrected Marine. I was a Boatswains mate second class. My ID card said Department of the Navy. Yours did too, so there!

My DI at the Great Lakes was a dam gunny sargent jarhead. He wasn't scheduled to be, but the Navy first class that was supposed to be the DI was in a car wreck the day my class arrived and the gunny got screwed with my company of recruits. So he was already whizzed when we got off the train. He just LOVED to kick squid's ashes. He used to tell us, you squid's wouldn't make a pimple on a Marine's ash now double time and stay in formation or I'll have you down and give me 50. He told us that of the three companies in training then, if we didn't win every dam contest that he was gonna kick all our ashes.

We won everything from shooting to close order drill and our company marched first in the graduation parade. But when he made us fix bayonetts and do close order drill, THAT made you pay attention buddy. I'll never forget a guy standing next to me on the firing line. We were all told if we had a misfire to raise our hands and let one of the line people clear it. They were all Jarheads too. This old boy had a misfire and raised his hand. As the Marine approached him, he turned toward him instead of staying as he was, and as that rifle barrel came off the down range attitude toward the next man in line, the marine popped him right over the ear with a right hand fist. The recruit droped like a sack of sand! I looked down at him and the jarhead said, if you don't want some of the same squid, keep your eyes and attention down range. This is none of your business. So I gave him the sir, YES SIR and kept my eyes down range you betcha.

Then when we got to the 600 yard prone shooting, I and one other guy were top shooters so we had to shoot it off. All the officers were standing behind us. The Marine private who was my "coach" told me I didn't have the sling tight enough on my M-1. Now my dad was a career Marine and retired as hand gun coach to the Midshipmen at Annapolous and I had been trained since I was 10 on how to shoot Marine style. So I told the "coach" that if he'd just let me the hell alone, I could shoot.

Well now, this ole boy was about 6'4" tall, weighed about 210, he was from Alabama, was as black as the inside of a cow, and he knew that I was from Mississippi. He could run through a brick wall. He just grunted and said, well if you don't squid, I'm gonna kick your ash. So now I had all the officers behind me and my coach threatening to kick my ash and I had already seen that they would do exatly that, so I had just a little pressure on me.

The guy next to me in the shoot off was Thomas R. Micheals from Lake of the Orzark, Missouri. He was a good guy and he could shoot too. We later served on the same ship and landing party together but I was issued a BAR which was the squad automatic weapon in those days. It was a good one too because those things are VERY accurate. Tommy only had an M-14. That always whizzed him off. But that day at the Lakes, Tommy didn't have the same motivation that I had to make every shot count and I had all rounds in the black and he had two just out. After the shooting the jarhead "coach" told me "Good shooting squid." It saved your ash today but the next time I tell you to tighten the dam sling, I don't care if it breaks your arm. You tighten that sling or I'm gonna kick your ash. Man, that guy sounded like a broken record. It was his solution to everything.

Of course, they can't hit people today or even curss them they way they did us back then. Too bad. It made my skinny butt sit up and take notice you betcha and it got the attention of even the hard cases. They were as serious as hell. After the shooting at the range, we were all standing in formation at attention and the poor ole boy that got smacked upside of the head was made to hold his rifle over his head and run around that HUGE shooting range while we stood there in the hot sun in silence, at attention, and watched. We could hear him grunting all the way across that field and they WANTED us to hear it. It was a real good lesson. When he got back he was about dead and could hardly stand. He was shaking all over and sweat just pouring off of him. The DI told him if he fell or fainted that he was gonna march the entire company over his dead body and for him to get in formation and keep up as we double timed it back to the barracks. My entire time at the Lakes was in double time. Jarheads just love double time or have you noticed that?

But back then I could do 200 sit ups and not even blink and could run flat out for seven miles and I don't know how far I could swim because the bayou behind my house wasn't long enough to find out. I had played baseball and run track in High school and did cross country running, so the physical part was no big deal for me. I just had to learn all that stuff you have to learn in boot camp, but some of those guys were in poor shape when they got there and it was really rough on them. Some didn't know how to make up a bed, or polish shoes, or wear a neat uniform. My dad had prepared me well for all of that and I knew what was coming and how to do it. Geeze I think some of those guys had their momma do everything for them until the day they got on the train for boot camp.

Too bad more young men don't have the opportunity to learn that you can do things you never thought you could do even if you are scared to death, and that as a team, you can do dam near the impossible because we all did it. I think about some of those guys on Memorial Day and wonder how life has treated them. Some of them were really quality guys. I kept up with a half dozen of them until everybody got married and then they just slipped away and letters came back No Forward Address. I always regretted that. Still do for that matter.

willdixon
05-27-2008, 04:36 AM
GOOD MORNING, DECK APE!

Sure, my ID card may have said DEPARTMENT OF NAVY (I don't really remember it). When there was some killin' needed doin', we had to have you guys carry us there so we could get it done. You were just a branch of the UNITED STATES MARINE CORPS! Yeeeehawwww!

Yeah, military times have changed for the worst, like the rest of our society - with all the do-gooders, tree-huggers, liberals and lazy bums who figure the government owes them a comfortable living.

But what the heck - I had my day and my America. 77 years of it. It was a different day, back in my '30s, and my America was a whole different ball game! And, although I was drafted into the Korean War, I served my country proudly and with honor.

It's early morning here in central Florida right now, AND I CAN'T WAIT!

IN A FEW HOURS I'LL BE CAPPIN' OFF MY FIRST 20 ROUNDS OR SO THROUGH MY BEAUTIFUL NOW PEDERSOLI SHARPS QUIGLEY 50/90.

What else is there!

Black Prince
05-27-2008, 08:24 AM
Best of luck to you Jarhead. A man can sure spend a day doing worse things than making that fine smelling smoke with a BP rifalgun like you have. Let us know how that comes out.

willdixon
05-27-2008, 08:44 AM
BLACK PRINCE - I know you're just jivin', but do you know what they did to us, at Parris Island, if they heard us call our M1 a "gun"?

They had a tall platform in the middle of the camp, and they'd make you climb up there with your M1, and any time anyone was within hearing range, you had to shout, "THIS IS MY RIFLE (holding it up), AND THIS IS MY GUN (holding your hand over your genetal area), THIS IS FOR FIGHTING (holding up the rifle again), AND THIS IS FOR FUN (indicating your private parts again)!

And you stood there for HOURS shouting that out.

Nobody ever called it a "gun" again.

Back in those days a Marine was issued an M1 and it stayed with him his entire career, AS IT SHOULD OF COURSE BE. And every day we fired, they MADE us take our rifles into the shower with us, field strip them, and scrub them with hot, soapy water. We were not allowed to use any lubricants at all on the weapons. A year later, over in Japan, I had my wife send a gun cleaning kit to me, and I put some oil on the moving parts. But that evening, just before liberty, our Platoon Commander inspected our firearms, and saw the oil on mine. He cancelled my liberty for it!

And yes, I'll let you know about today's shoot.

Black Prince
05-27-2008, 10:45 AM
Gene

They did the same thing to us at the Lakes, only it was in the enlisted mess hall. There was a little platform there and many a day I ate chow with some poor sumbitcx standing up there yelling until he was horse about this is his rifle and this is his gun. The military has a quick way of getting its point across to even the dumbest recruit. They did the same thing about throwing grenades. If you threw it like a baseball, you had to stand up on that little platform and yell "I'm John Wayne. I'm John Wayne."

People who didn't have to go through that read that now and think it's funny, but there was nothing funny about it then buddy. I still crenge when I hear some yokle refer to his rifle as his gun. If he knew what I knew about doing that, he dam sure wouldn't do it.

But I had a BIG advantage because my dad told me all about that stuff before I went up to the lakes. About half way through our training cycle, the gunny pulled me aside one morning after muster and asked me how I was able to take it all in with what seemed to be no effort when so many of the guys in the company just had a difficult time doing it. When I told him my dad was a jarhead and had prepared me for it, he asked me and two more guys to help those who couldn't make it. After that, I had it easy and he turned out to be a good guy. He said there was so much we had to learn in such a short time that the DI's didn't have time to be nice and besides that, they wanted to find out who could hack it and who couldn't because they didn't want to send anybody out to the fleet who wasn't going to be able to do the job. We lost about 10 to 15 ppercent of the guys during our basic training. Some went to sick bay and didn't come back. Some went AWOL and we never saw them again. Some went to the brig and some got a UD discharge and just went home. Good riddance if you asked me because once that ship left the dock, we needed every man to do his job and not complain. We had left all the complainers and those who couldn''t hack it back at the Lakes.

Some people just ain't cut out for the military. Once General Quarters is sounded, you want to be sure everybody there knows and can do his job because if he can't or doesn't, you, and a lot of your shipmates, may die.

montana_charlie
05-27-2008, 01:00 PM
In discussions where exactness matters, terms like rifle, gun, pistol, and revolver take on important meaning. The rifle versus gun routine taught to military recruits is part of the overall psycological training that is an inherent part of the physical conditioning.

It's a matter of convincing everyone to think alike, and speak alike while they are learning to act alike. It's called 'uniformity', and helps each recruit to be comfortable with the idea that he is just like his buddies...no better and no worse...regardless of his station in life before joining up.
If he slips up and does something not 'uniform', that is where disciplinary action comes in to help him remember.

To make a big deal of the difference between rifle and gun while engaged in casual civilian conversation is...well...unnecessary.
CM

Black Prince
05-27-2008, 02:21 PM
Do you mean like when Sara Brady recently gave testimony about outlawing assualt weapons while holding a 22 revolver in her hands? How many soccer moms saw that and now believe that a 22 revolver is an assualt weapon? Or maybe its okay for a civilian to say in casual conversation something to the effect that "Saturday night specials" ought to be banned, or maybe "cop killer" bullets?

That so many people are ignorant of the termonology of firearms is what allows the various reporters and the media to get away with much of the **** that they do.

Sara Brady says there should be no autimatic weapons in civilain hands and she says a Browning BAR is an automatic weapon because it says that it is right there in its name and it wouldn't say that if it wasn't true. How many soccer moms or dads believe her?

We now have two generations of men that have not been required to serve in the military. We have so many who don't know a rifle butt from a fence post and they don't care. All they know it what they have been taught and that is that all "guns" are dangerous and can kill children so therefore all "guns" should be outlawed.

I respecfully beg to differ in my own opinion Charles. It IS IMPORTANT to be specific and know what you are talking about when refering to "guns" and that does not matter whether you are in the military or standing in front of church on Sunday talking to your neighbors in casual conversation. Your neighbors vote, and they are swayed by all the lies that are told by the media who get away with it because nobody KNOWS the difference between a "gun and a rifle" or a "pistol and a revolver" or an "assualt weapon and a Remington 742."

One size does not fit all when it comes to firearms termonology, but there is a movement afoot in this country led by Sara Brady and the news media to do just that. Once they achieve that, then it becomes easier to make the case to outlaw "guns", and make no mistake, that is exactly what they intend to do. Once all handguns become Saturday Night Specials, and all bullets become cop killers, and all rifles become assualt weapons, their job will be a LOT easier.

Course, that is just my own view of things, but I think I am on very firm ground here.

montana_charlie
05-27-2008, 05:24 PM
In discussions where exactness matters, terms like rifle, gun, pistol, and revolver take on important meaning.

To make a big deal of the difference between rifle and gun while engaged in casual civilian conversation is...well...unnecessary.
Do you mean like when Sara Brady recently gave testimony about outlawing assualt weapons while holding a 22 revolver in her hands?
Do you consider giving testimony as 'casual conversation' or as something wherein 'exactness matters'?

Or maybe its okay for a civilian to say in casual conversation something to the effect that "Saturday night specials" ought to be banned, or maybe "cop killer" bullets?
As it happens, it IS Ok for a civilian to state his opinion of Saturday night specials, and any ignorance he might be suffering from will not be changed if a retired Soldier (you) stops to tell a retired Airman (me) that a rifle is not a gun.
We both already know the difference.

That so many people are ignorant of the termonology of firearms is what allows the various reporters and the media to get away with much of the **** that they do.
I find the firearm ignorance of the average citizen to be a shame, and the ignorance displayed by most politicians and media to be almost criminal.

The cure for that is education...and education is an activity in which the use of proper terminology is important. It is "a discussion where exactness matters" (to reuse those words of mine that you missed).


I respecfully beg to differ in my own opinion Charles. It IS IMPORTANT to be specific and know what you are talking about when refering to "guns" and that does not matter whether you are in the military or standing in front of church on Sunday talking to your neighbors in casual conversation. Your neighbors vote, and they are swayed by all the lies that are told by the media who get away with it because nobody KNOWS the difference between a "gun and a rifle" or a "pistol and a revolver" or an "assualt weapon and a Remington 742."
Thank you for the respect. But, I will just as respectfully disagree.

If you explain to your neighbor that this 'gun' over here (the AK-47) holds thirty 'bullets' and will fire all of them by just holding the trigger down...and that 'gun' over there needs to have each separate 'bullet' jacked into the barrel by working the bolt...he will walk away knowing the difference between an assault rifle and a Remington 742 ---- without learning that neither one is actually a 'gun' because they are both rifles.

If he isn't a shooter, the gun/rifle difference is lost on him. But knowing the difference between fully automatic weapons and bolt actions has been made clear...and that is what you need him to know when Sara Brady speaks.
He can take that knowledge to the polls at voting time.

Course, that is just my own view of things, but I think I am on very firm ground here.
There are circumstances when I would agree with you, but...

CM

Black Prince
05-27-2008, 06:21 PM
If the casual conversation were between you and I, or any number of people around here, we'd have no problems whatsoever. Try as we will, I don't think any or all of us are going to have much impact on the ignorance level of the public no matter what termonology we use. They are not interested in facts. They are going on emotion and the anti-gun bunch know just how to play on that emotion with terms like Saturday Night Special and Cop Killer Bullets. Assualt Weapon is another perjorative term they like to throw around. All of those names are right out of some Madison Avenue marketing firm working for the Brady gang.

I quit teaching NRA Hunter Education classes about six or seven years ago when the young people in the classes were coming with their moms and not their dads. Dad wasn't interested. I asked many women why dad didn't come and the answer was, he's at home watching the ball game. He doesn't know anything about "guns," so he didn't come.

That is such a contrast to when I first started doing the classes back in 1978. Then it was very unusual to see a female in the classes. I had to start every session by asking all of those who were current or former law enforcement or militray to hold their comments because they had received different training than what I was about to do. That is because there are very different objectives of the firearms training. I would ask how many had received militray training. More than half the class had. Now NONE have. In 1978 I didn't have to explain the difference between a rifle and a shotgun. Now they just don't get it. They are both GUNS you see?

So screw it. I'm getting too dam old to deal with anything that requires patience. I take that back. I have patience with other old farts like me. They have earned the right to be *******es and to tell me I am full of it. In fact, that is sorta why I like hanging out around here. There is no shortage of opinions and people to express them. But those opinions are coming from guys who know the difference between a Case XX and a Boker Tree brand pocket knife. THEY have credibility!!! In public today, nobody will tell you what they think. I'm not sure that's because they are incapable of thought, or they are being politically correct, but whatever the case, it's boring as hell. It's never boring around here thank God and everybody knows the Tree brand is the better knife. Right?:)

willdixon
05-27-2008, 07:07 PM
No way I'm buttin' into THIS conversation, thank you very much.

But I DID see an hilariously amazing firearm nomenclature misuse today, and it was either on Midway or Buffalo Arms, but I don't recall which.

I was searching for "lead", but pulled up a lot of antique replica cartridge boxes filled with loaded cartridges. And the photograph was taken from the open end of the box where you could see only the bases of the cartridges, with the primers.

And the online catalog called these cartridges "bullets".

I was amazed!

montana_charlie
05-27-2008, 07:52 PM
If the casual conversation were between you and I, or any number of people around here, we'd have no problems whatsoever.
That is exactly what I meant when I said that being a stickler for the difference is...well...unnecessary.

For the record...
When I speak with (or to) a non-gunowner about firearms, it is never a 'casual' conversation...even if he thinks it is. I was a 'teacher' during my last hitch in the Air Force. I didn't like it, but I was good at it.
I fully understand the concept of building a person's knowledge by starting with what he knows (or thinks he knows) and adding very clear pieces of information that fit with his preconceptions...but turned a little to start modifying any notions that are incorrect.

If he goes away with just a little less ignorance than when we met...I'm satisfied.
If he ever gets knowledgeable enough to need the difference between a 'rifle' and a 'gun'...he will already be primed to understand what makes it important.

But, among us chickens, I expect to be able to say 'gun' without being browbeat for it because it's...well...unnecessary.

But, if you want to set fire to MY pet peeve, just talk like this...

Yep, I went to the range today with my new .45-90 (aka .45 2 4/10ths Sharps Straight) to see if I could make it shoot as well as my .45-70 Government (aka .45 2 1/10 Sharps Straight) or my .45-120 (aka .45 3 1/4 Sharps Straight).

I think I'm really gonna like this .45 4/10ths SS cartridge (aka .45-90 Winchester) because it's ultra cool.

By the time I get done wading through all of the aka's, I don't care if he shot his foot off!

CM

Black Prince
05-27-2008, 09:07 PM
:) Me NEITHER!!!

Well Will, what happened? Did them "bullets" ya made shoot? Er not? Over.

willdixon
05-27-2008, 11:39 PM
SORRY TO DISAPPOINT YOU BLACK PRINCE. My oldest son drove up here, from an hour and a half away, to go shootin' with me today, but at the last minute I had a real down spell with my leaking heart valve, and just couldn't make it. Had a tough time standing up.

We did, however, set up a target, and REALLY CAREFULLY bore sighted the 50/90 for right on at 50 yards (I had previously bore sited it roughly). And it's a good thing we did, because the windage screw on the long distance tang sight was frozen, and it took some doin' to get it loose. We live in a dense forest, and 50 yards is the maximum you can see anywhere on my land because of all the massive old oak trees.

PLUS I had not been to the place where we were planning on going to shoot today, in back of a little gun store out here in the country, but by son had been there, and warned me it's not a "range" at all, just a small back yard, where you can only shoot about twenty feet or so, maximum distance. So we've postponed our celebration, and, in a few dys, will go out to this nice nearby 200-yard range instead: http://members.atlantic.net/~scoop10/ The very bright Events Director here is a Forum friend of mine, and a PP BPCR guru And I'm hoping he'll bring his chronograph out while I'm there, to clock me for a few rounds.

Sorry, Black Prince - trust me, I'm more disappointed than you are!

Black Prince
05-28-2008, 07:55 AM
Spit happens Gene. What is the saying that you jarheads use about that? Something about adjust, adapt, and over come? You know the drill.

Didja get the photo's I sent you by e-mail? Looks like we are on a close path there. Let us know when you go to the range old pard. Once you start smelling that black powder smoke, you will probably feel a lot better.

floodgate
05-28-2008, 11:43 AM
Actually, the use of "bullets" to describe complete, loaded cartridges is becoming more common than not, even in police reports and in court; most startling was a long summary i read a couple of days back of a study of the relative effectiveness in Iraqu (remember when "q" was ALWAYS to be followed by"u"?) of the 5.56 in the general issue M-16 vs. the 7.62 in the snipers' M-14s. I don't know if the original military text used "bullets" for loaded rounds, but the many quotations in the press reports used it exclusively.

We'll stick to our "boolits"!

floodgate

willdixon
05-28-2008, 12:16 PM
Yes, you're absolutely right, Floodgate.

Ignorance and intellectual sloth abound today in our once learned nation.

But I, for one, shall never defend, emulate nor propagate it.

I will not call a cartridge a bullet, no matter how many retards do.

And "q", I might add, was only followed by "u" in the middle of a word, not at the end of one.

montana_charlie
05-28-2008, 12:45 PM
And "q", I might add, was only followed by "u" in the middle of a word, not at the end of one.
That statement did pique my interest, but I can't think of any words (besides Iraq) that end with 'q'...and I don't suppose that words which begin with 'q' would qualify for the 'middle of a word' parameter.
CM

willdixon
05-28-2008, 02:04 PM
There was never a rule that "u" followed "q", any more than the mnemonic "i before e except after c". There are a number of English language words in which q is not followed by u, mostly of foreign root, and the mnemonic is also only a generalization, not a spelling rule. And we all know today there is no "u" in Iraq.

I'm not certain I follow this thought train, however, because none of these semantics make a cartridge a bullet.

Ah well.....I'm slow today....

Black Prince
05-28-2008, 02:29 PM
That makes two of us slow today. As Rush says, "words mean things." Or they did back in the last century when I was in school anyway. But I'm an old fart now, so what do I know? Heck, I think when the Constitution says the right of the people, I am so dam dumb that I think I am a "people" and it is referring to me having the right to keep and bear arms.

I sorta think the way Ted Nugent thinks about that. If yawl wanna see what he thinks about it, check it out here--> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_QjEL0uUgo

Now those are some plain words!

willdixon
05-28-2008, 02:57 PM
Nugent was excellent!

I hear a different drummer from most you guys, I've never cared for rock, and haven't owned nor watched a TV set for over three decades.

I busy myself with other persuits.

But I really like Nugent's discourse on the Second Amendment.

Is it too late to run him for President???

willdixon
05-29-2008, 04:48 AM
OKAY, GUYS, HERE'S ONE I GUARANTEE YOU HAVEN'T HEARD OF YET.....

You can now buy shotgun reloading BIRDSHOT MADE OUT OF FOOD SEASONING!

You shoot the bird with shotgun shells loaded with this seasoning shot, and, when you cook the meat, the shot melts and flavors the bird!

Just think, you could cast your 45/70 bullets out of salt, pepper and garlic, shoot your deer, and just cook him with all those spices flavoring him.

Check it out: http://www.seasonshot.com/How.cfm

WHAT'S NEXT!

carpetman
05-29-2008, 05:25 AM
Willdixon---I have always had to add salt to my loads so the game doesnt spoil before I get to it.

willdixon
05-29-2008, 12:26 PM
CARPETMAN - Hee hee - yeah, I've had a couple of other guys also tell me the same thing. So it HAS to be true!