I need primer diagnostic help

[gray wolf]

I know how mouthy I can get, so I will try and make this as clear and short as possible.

I have been shooting my 200 grain #68 SWC bullets with 4.7 grains of tite group powder and Winchester large pistol primers for a long time.
I shoot the 225 grain Lyman #452374 with the same identical load.
My accuracy is well with in what I want. Recoil is mild, cases show no evidence of over pressure, and the primers are not flat. they show what I would consider a normal appearance.
The SWC 200 grain are seated to 1.240 and the round nose are seated to 1.265
I think my load and my OAL fall within a good margin.
4.7 grains of tite group for the 200 grain SWC is 1/10 below Minimum load.
The book Say's 4.8--5.4
The load of 4.7 for the 225 grain LRN is 1/10 below Maximum load.The book on it is 4--4.8
OK here is the change, I ran out of the Winchester large pistol primers and switched to the Wolf LPP about 1,300 rounds ago.

My loads now show very flattened primers. There is no other tell tail pressure indications, brass lands in the same spot, recoil is the same, and the accuracy is the same. Just flat primers, if you look at a primer that has been removed from the case after shooting, it is top hatted ( rolled over on the back edge )
OK I thought perhaps the wolf primers are hotter than the Winchester,
so I loaded a bunch of test rounds with the 225 grain round nose.
Same OAL, no change but the powder charge.
I loaded 3.9 ( 1/10 under the Minimum load ) 4, 4.1, 4.2, 4.3,4.4, 4.5, 4.6, 4.7
All the primers were flat, almost the same from 3.9 to 4.7
At no time did I have any bulged cases and recoil was not heavy,
All the cases landed about 5 feet away, none were throne any father than the rest. Perhaps a foot more for the 4.7 load.
The primers are flat to the point that all the primer pocket is taken up.
My 200 grain HP's and the 212 solid points are loaded to an OAL of 1.190 and all of the bullets mentioned fall into a removed barrel very well, they are flush with the barrel hood or some may be a smidgen below.
The load for the 200 HP's and the 212 solids is 4.8, 4.9 and 5 grains of tite group.
NOW these loads flatten the Wolf primers also ( more than the WLP )
But not as bad as the 225 grain RN. They also show no other indications of high pressure and all land in a nice little spot about 5 feet away.
If you didn't look at the primers you would say that all the loads act and feel normal. I have shot 700 or 800 of these loads so far and the flattened primers are the only thing I am puzzled about. I have had no fail to feed or any miss fires
with the wolf primers.
( please don't flame the Wolf primers )
I have called Chris at Wideners reloading ( Wolf sent me to him )
They said he answers all the primer questions. Well he said they have no problem with the LPP and didn't even want the lot # 19-09.
My thoughts at this point are a very soft primer cup
( the pin indent is also heavy ) But he said the Wolf primers are harder.
My thought is they are a little fatter and seat a little harder, making it seem they are harder.
I thought like most folks that the loads were a little hot because the primers may be a little hotter. But I got a little confused when the load that was 1/10 below
minimum also flattened the primer on the 225 RN.
Well there you go men SHORT AND SWEET Eh. :bigsmyl2: [smilie=s:

So what you all think about what could be going on ?:veryconfu :veryconfu

Sam

[madsenshooter]

No telling pressure from primers because of variation. As a for instance, I have a fairly stout jacketed load that will somewhat flatten Win LRM, CCI 250, and Herter's primers, but not Rem 9 1/2M, they stay nice and rounded. As many loads as you've shot, if anything was going to happen, it already would have.

[GSM]

Softer cups in the Wolf.

[A J]

Same batch of powder? Powder temperature sensitive? Leading in throat or barrel? Hot batch of primers? I like to think maybe hot primers. That seems to be the only variable.

A J

[Echo]

+1 for softer cups. Recoils about the same, as empties end up about the same place as before w/WW, so I don't see pressure as being a problem.

[gray wolf]

Same batch of powder? Yes same powderPowder temperature sensitive? bullets were in a cooler with an ice pack Leading in throat or barrel?
barrel was cleaned and inspected every ten rounds, no leadingHot batch of primers? I like to think maybe hot primers. That seems to be the only variable.
Hot primeres ? wouldn't that make the whole load shoot a little hotter ?
Even the loads that were 1/10 below the start load had flattend primers.
But the loads shot and acted like a very light load, even blackened the case a little.
But only on the below Min. charge.

[Storydude]

Primer cups on the wolf are flowing different than USA primers.

If POI didn't change,(meaning velocity had..) velocity didn;t change(which means pressure didn't change any appreciable amount) and brass ejection is the same(which means pressures are the same as before), softer, or "more likely to flow" primer cups are the only answer.

[qajaq59]

Since we're sort of guessing here, I have to go with the softer cups. It sounds like you've already covered most of the other things that would have caused high pressure.

[gray wolf]

So far it looks like soft cups, I tried very hard to work it out before I posted.
I guess we will see what everyone has to say.

[jimb16]

Other than softer primer cups, the only thing I can think of is a looser primer fit allowing them to back out and get flattened by case setback.

[Rocky Raab]

Here is what happens ...

When the primer fires, it creates more pressure than can get through the flashhole fast enough to keep the primer from backing out. Primers ALWAYS back out upon ignition.

In a normal load, the case begins moving backwards immediately as the powder ignites. That re-seats the primer.

In a low-pressure load, the primer stays out long enough for the pressure to flow back through the flashhole again. That expands the part of the primer that's poked out from the pocket. THEN the case moves back. The part of the primer that expanded now is too big to go back into the pocket, so it "rivets" or has its edges crimped.

The situation is more noticeable with excessive headspace or soft primers.

[BD]

De-cap a couple and have a close look. There is a difference between a primer that "Top Hats" due to backing out at low pressure, and a primer that flattens due to high pressure. It's a little tough to describe, but since I'm not shy, I'll take a stab at it.

A primer that's flattened due to high pressure will generally have flowed exactly into the shape of the primer pocket. If you de-cap a couple from different brands of cases, you will be able to see the minute details of the different primer pockets embossed into the primers. This takes a magnifier and a close look. A primer that "Top Hats" will have an actual flange around it, sort of like the rim on a .22 rf case, a cylinder with a crimped rim, and they will look very similar even if from different shapes of primer pockets.

This issue drove me nuts for a few weeks when I first started shooting cast loads in rifles. Somebody from the original Shooters board eventually clued me in.

BD

[gray wolf]

Here is what happens ...

When the primer fires, it creates more pressure than can get through the flashhole fast enough to keep the primer from backing out. Primers ALWAYS back out upon ignition.

In a normal load, the case begins moving backwards immediately as the powder ignites. That re-seats the primer.

In a low-pressure load, the primer stays out long enough for the pressure to flow back through the flashhole again. That expands the part of the primer that's poked out from the pocket. THEN the case moves back. The part of the primer that expanded now is too big to go back into the pocket, so it "rivets" or has its edges crimped.

The situation is more noticeable with excessive headspace or soft primers.
__________________
Please visit my shooting articles at www.reloadingroom.com and my Vietnam novels at www.rockyraab.com

Very well put,
I thank you and everyone. I understand about low powder charges and the primers backing out, as in a case with just a primer and no powder or bullet.
Thing is the primers seat hard, indicating to me the pockets are not to loose, and the same thing happens with higher charges.
My cases have seen perhaps 12 to 15 loadings of light charges,
Could the pockets have loosened up a little ? sure it could be.
Or it's a soft cup, I can't think of anything else up till now.

[gray wolf]

A primer that's flattened due to high pressure will generally have flowed exactly into the shape of the primer pocket. If you de-cap a couple from different brands of cases, you will be able to see the minute details of the different primer pockets embossed into the primers. This takes a magnifier and a close look. A primer that "Top Hats" will have an actual flange around it, sort of like the rim on a .22 rf case, a cylinder with a crimped rim, and they will look very similar even if from different shapes of primer pockets.

This issue drove me nuts for a few weeks when I first started shooting cast loads in rifles. Somebody from the original Shooters board eventually clued me in.

BD

OK --the primers have taken up all the space at the back of the primer pocket.
and have the rim around them like the 22 RF case.
I am going to post a PIC. in a few Minutes.

Sam

[oneokie]

Another vote for soft cups.

[gray wolf]

Ok here are the Pics.
The top row are the Wolf primers, bottom are the Winchester.
Load was the same, 2-3 tenths below max.
if you click on the Pic. it gets a little bigger.

[jsizemore]

You might try measuring the thickness of the primer cups and compare to Win.

WLP primers are for standard and magnum loads so they may run a little thicker and/or harder.

I find a chronograph and check my velocities.

[jsizemore]

One other test.

Take two fired cases of the same headstamp and length, punch out the old primers and put in one each wolf and win primer, chamber and fire in your 1911 and see if you notice a difference in firing pin strike. That should settle the hardness or thickness issue.

Just a thought.

[HeavyMetal]

I think the wolf primers are just a bunch softer than the winchesters.

I learned a long time ag that primer "appearance" could be very decieving!

The ultimate test here would be to measure the base of the fired rounds.

If you have sme fired case's with the winchester primer in them measure the case just above the groove for the ejector.

Now load and fire same cases with the wolf primer and re-measure.

If the wolf's are genuinely creating more pressure you will see a larger diameter case head plain and simple.

If no difference in diameter of the case head your load is always what it was and the primers from wolf are just soft.

If you can measure even .001 more diameter reduce the load by 5% when using the wolf primers!

[hansumtoad]

If you havent blown up a barrel by now, I'd concentrate on three things....

1. Sight picture
2. Breath control
3. Trigger squeeze.

Forget everything else.

[gray wolf]

If you havent blown up a barrel by now, I'd concentrate on three things....

1. Sight picture
2. Breath control
3. Trigger squeeze.

Forget everything else.


Yes I think we can agree with what you say.
But some of us ( me ) like to know the answer to things.
The wolf primers are .001 wider than the winchester and .002 shorter.
That ( I think ) would make them have more room to back out if they were bottomed out when seated. I do notice they are backed out on the fired cases just enough to make them rock a little if you place them on a flat surface.
I thank you all that have taken the time with this, Why shouldn't we know things.
It can only help us.------------------------- I think.

[sljacob]

this may not even be a related problem...but today a friend at work showed me some brass that he had shot over the weekend that had flatened the primers shooting light to midrange loads. he also had an unfired round in the box that did not have the primer seated all the way...I suspect that all the rounds were not seated properly and flatened out due to recoil.

[Rocky Raab]

Gray Wolf, bump your charge up for a few test shots. Come up to at least the book Start load, or a tenth or so over that. I predict the flat primer problem will magically disappear. If so, you'll then know that it's a light load issue - and can ignore it.

[gray wolf]

ROCKY RAAB

I think I said in my posts that the same thing is happening with one grain under Min. charge
AND one grain under MAX. I went from 3.9 to 4.7 with the tite group powder and the
225 grain Lyman #452374 results was almost identical as to the flattening of the primers.
One thing I did measure was the hight of the primers, they are .002 shorter than Winchester.
I do think I have them seated all the way down.
But being shorter --would that make them back out more ? and if so does that cause this flattening to take place ?

[Rocky Raab]

I missed or forgot that about the loads you tried. Sorry. If bumping up the charge didn't help, then the only thing left (that I can think of) is that the primer cups are very soft.

The height of the primer ought not be a cause of what you describe - although you might have to seat them deeper for them to "bottom" as they are supposed to.

If this were me, I think I'd ignore it - and look for other primers.

[gray wolf]

Yes I agree--I have 2,000 Wolf left. I will shoot them up.
I never had a problem with Winchester, but at the time I was out they were not available to me. All I could get were the wolf. I think I also mentioned that all other things were fine with the Wolf. Accuracy was still .400 at 10 yards from a sand bag. With my eyes that is about the best I can do at 10 yards. I hit at 25,35,and 50 OK--just not as good as ten.
I did notice that with the 1/10 under Min. charge using the 225 grain bullet( 3.9 tite group)
the shell cases had carbon on the sides. This tell me that the cases did not have enough pressure to seal the chamber. But yet the primers flattened ?? Wouldn't that indicate that the load was not hot??

Sam

[Rocky Raab]

Yup, perfect analysis.

[GSM]

Look at the firing pin impressions as well - larger on the Wolf. Softer cup and a little difference in primer height.

[BD]

After looking at the pics, I'm with GSM. The firing pin impressions look like what you see from high pressure more than backed out primers. I'd think that soft brass would show those same signs at lower, (normal), pressures. As long as they're not piercing I'd shoot them. But, probably not the best batch to use if you're pushing max loads.
BD

[MtGun44]

primer appearance can tell something useful from the exact same batch of primers,
but even then, it is not a reliable "I'm OK" indicator, just a possibly useful "I'm not
OK" indicator.

Change primer brands and ALL bets are off bacause you have no idea about thickness
and hardness differences in the cups and anvils.

Just for grins I'd try punching out about 5 of each, then remove the anvils. Make up
a drop test with a chunk of steel dropping onto the cup sitting on something like an
anvil from a carefully set up repeatable height. Maybe a hammer with a handle bottom
hole drilled and a nail driven thru into a vertical board, hammer now pivots about the
nail "shaft", then the head held at an exact height each drop. See if they squish a lot
more under a pretty close to the same impact.

I'd would not worry about pressure.

Bill

[gray wolf]

Sorry but I am limited on what kind of experiments I can run here at the camp ( my house )
But I did load up 5 rounds with Federal primers, 5 with Winchester and 5 with the wolf.
The Winchester had a very normal looking primer, with a light pin dent.
The Federal and the wolf looked almost identical. Deep pin strike, and flat like the primers in my other post with the Pics.
My conclusion is that Win. is the harder of the three. No brain'er there it was obvious.
All point of impact was the same, recoil was the same and the shells all landed within about the same circle 5 feet away from me.
After shooting so many rounds of the Wolf I conclude they are safe with my loads. But I think we all new that anyway. But I thought it only right to test them to the best of my ability.
Deep conversation and a good look into something that doesn't look correct can only help us
and perhaps assist a new guy in his hand loading adventure.
BTW the load today was--4.4 of tite group and the 225 Lyman 452374 LRN. It also shoots very well with 4.7 grains of tite group. That bullet was very good with 6.5 of Long shot also
The 200 grain SWC bullets shot well with 4.7/ tite group.
The 200 grain Mi Hec hollow points are doing very well with 4.8/ 4.9 and 5 grains of tite group.
and up to 7.7 of long shot.
I wish I had a Chronograph.


Sam