Questions about HP Boolits

[Dannix]

The HP pic thread (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=88259) prompted to ask a few questions I've had recently.

Question 1. Can cast HP have the same level of reliable, predicable expansion in various mediums and through initial boundaries (e.g. denim tests) as a well trusted j-word HP like a Gold Dot?

Question 2. I've wondered if a cast FP 2-parter with a pure Pb, high tin nose would do anything an HP can do, or at least approach it, && do so with more reliability. Thoughts? Maybe good for game, but too penetrating for "serious social purposes"?

Question 3. Blammer's 185gr 45AC (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=941920&postcount=2) looks nice, but would something his last one, the 52316 HP (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=941927&postcount=4), benefit from a pentagonal cavity? Or could simply increasing the HP cavity diameter do just as well to increase expansion? I guess what I'm trying to ask is can a standard, round HP, when sized appropriately, do anything a pentagonal HP can do?

[leftiye]

#1 Probly not have the range of impact velocity that a jacketed bullet has where it will work acceptably. But if shot so that it hits at a desired velocity, then perhaps just as good. It's like the jacketed hunting bullet as compared to cast - the jacketed will hold together at higher velocities and therefore do more damage in situations where lead alone will explode.

#2 The advantage of a 2 part boolit is that the harder base section allows somewhat for higher velocities. It may also hold together better than a low tin/antimony lead will. A 50/50 boolit heat treated and with the nose annealed can probly do the same things.

#3 What you ask seems to be based on your preferences. My preference is for a smaller mushroom that stays with the boolit. If you really want petals, then X boolit your hollow point.

[fredj338]

I have played a lot w/ diff caliber LHP. I find a couple of things:
You need an alloy that bends, not breaks, so lead/tin alloys work better over a wider vel range than ww. You need enough mat'l in the walls of the bullets' nose to support expansion @ any vel over 850fps. Thin walled LHP will almost always frag @ higher vel. The faceted HP seem to be a bit more reliable across a wider range of vel, especially at higher vel. CUp points will usually expand better than deeper LHP @ higher vel, more mass in the nose to support the expansion.
Unless you hit something hard, a "soft point" is not going to expand like a LHP. The fluid factor works for you w/ the LHP. Mine work fine in wetpack through the dreaded 2 lay of denim (9mm).
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=88259

[Dannix]

#2 The advantage of a 2 part boolit is that the harder base section allows somewhat for higher velocities. Right, I get this part. It may also hold together better than a low tin/antimony lead will. A 50/50 boolit heat treated and with the nose annealed can probly do the same things. So can't really expect much improved from a 50/50 nose (with sufficient tin) to a Pb/Sn nose? Not enough Sb to really make a difference in brittleness or hardness (when annealed)?

#3 What you ask seems to be based on your preferences. My preference is for a smaller mushroom that stays with the boolit. If you really want petals, then X boolit your hollow point. Yeah, but the one on the left (http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/blammer8mm/Cast%20boolits%20fun/DSCN7669.jpg) hardly expanded at all. Maybe that boolit is designed for higher velocities than the 45 ACP allows?
Also, funny you should make that comment about j-word's velocity range. In the handgun JHP world, I've always thought of them being range specific -- if I recall correctly, a JHP designed for .38 special may get less penetration when push to .357 velocities. Not sure about the rifle realm though.


Unless you hit something hard, a "soft point" is not going to expand like a LHP. The fluid factor works for you w/ the LHP. Mine work fine in wetpack through the dreaded 2 lay of denim (9mm).
I assume that this is a cup HP (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=76712)? It's referred to there as a 'dish'.

With you on the issue of having enough material in the chamber wall for a given velocity. Good point about a 'soft point' not having the same level of expansion as a LHP, but what about a cup/dish HP? Post#3 (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=941925&postcount=3) looks certainly within the realm of 'soft-point,' but the kicker is how readily can you get a 'soft point' to expand, right?

Note: I'm asking the questions above based on the assumption (perhaps incorrect) that a large metplat 'soft-nose' will have better terminal performance than a clogged HP. I wonder how the terminal performance of a non-expanding i.e. clogged dish HP really compares to a large metplate FN. Perhaps better than a non-expanding LHP?

[Lloyd Smale]

heres my take on it. I think there better. Ive done alot of penetration and expansion testing with jacketed hps and cast and have take game with both. A jacketed bullet relys on the jacket to control expansion and usually has a pure core. If the jacket fails or is lost the bullet goes to peices. Most conventional (cheap) hps tend to shed there jackets when the going gets tough. thats why the better bullets use tricks to lock to core to the jacket. With a cast hp you can control your alloy. You can use pure if you want to blow the **** out of varmits or a harder alloy to control expansion. In many cases you can also control the size of the cavity. If i know im going to hunt deer i will use a bigger hp and a softer alloy and if its say a black bear i can run a bit harder alloy. A hp with a bigger cavity cast out of anything harder then about 8bhn shot a mag velocitys will about allways loose its nose. thats not a bad thing. Case in point the buffalo i shot with the 44 lyman devestator. It was a 1100 lb cow and the bullet was cast out of ww plus 2 percent tin. The bullet lost its nose but there was enough of the shank left to give complete penetration. Internal damage was impressive and it killed it extreamly guickly. What ive found in hps is the critical thing is how deep the hp cavity is more then the size of the cavity. You want a cast hp not to have a cavity deeper then the crimp grove to insure that theres enough bullet left to do the job if it sheds its nose. As to some people thinking a bullet fails if it looses its nose, nosler has about wrote the book on premium bullets with there partition that does just that. So if a guy is willing to test bullets and try to set up a test that is going to be simualar to what hes going to encounter in the field and find the right alloy for the job a cast hp is hands down going to outperform a jackted. Ive seen jackted hps fail miserably on pigs and bear. Especialy out of the smaller bores like the 357 and .41. Ive also seen where improper designed hp cast fail. We shot buffalo once with 500 linebaughs with cast hp with a very deep cavity that went darned near half way through the bullet and recovered bullets that were picture perfect mushrooms that were near an inch in diameter. the problem was they were so big they didnt penetrate and only went in 6-8 inches without even hitting a rib bone. those buffalo had to be put down with other bullets. Moral of the story is that if a guys willing to look for a good design and taylor it to the game your going after there a much better deal then a say a 240 gain hp jacketed bullet that is a one size fits all thing that must perform from 44 special velocitys to 44 mag. theres no way a manufacture can taylor 10 differnt bullets with cores from 10 diffent alloys or jackets of various thicknesses to run the gamit from 800 fps to 1400 fps and perform on animals from 50 lbs to 1500lbs. You have the abiiity to do that if you cast your own.

[44man]

Nice Lloyd!
I would caution everyone that there is only one test medium to see what a boolit will do and that is the animal you want to hunt.
Then experience using the boolit on all kinds of shot placement.
Cast can allow tweaking to do what is needed and you need to study kill results because even if you kill the animal fast, you could have had a total boolit failure that will eventually bite you in the butt.

[gray wolf]

Lloyd Smale
Nice composition about your findings.
I agree with much of what you said.

Thank you

Sam

[MtGun44]

Anyone test HPs filled with a soft material to avoid clogging with a solid that does
not transmit the hydraulic forces? This would be like the new Speer HPs filled with
a soft polymer (RTV type??) to ensure expansion - sheetrock or clothing will
not fill the cavity, it is already filled with soft polymer.

Lloyd said a lot of good stuff, sounds exactly right to me, but I have no direct
experience hunting with cast HP.

Bill

[mpmarty]

My 45/70 Ranch Dog boolits don't expand in game but they don't contract either. Nice half inch hole and two holes to bleed out through. Just be careful there isn't another deer hiding behind the one you shoot. Don't ask how I know:groner:

[Lloyd Smale]

never tried it bill but ive seen where hps get plugged in wet print tests and not expand. Id be leary of any thing that was intentional put in a hp that includes soft materials or even the old trick of putting shot in the tip. it probably would work 99 out of a 100 but id worry about that one time.
Anyone test HPs filled with a soft material to avoid clogging with a solid that does
not transmit the hydraulic forces? This would be like the new Speer HPs filled with
a soft polymer (RTV type??) to ensure expansion - sheetrock or clothing will
not fill the cavity, it is already filled with soft polymer.

Lloyd said a lot of good stuff, sounds exactly right to me, but I have no direct
experience hunting with cast HP.

Bill

[fredj338]

Also, funny you should make that comment about j-word's velocity range. In the handgun JHP world, I've always thought of them being range specific -- if I recall correctly, a JHP designed for .38 special may get less penetration when push to .357 velocities. Not sure about the rifle realm though.


I assume that this is a cup HP (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=76712)? It's referred to there as a 'dish'. Yes, I would call that a cup or dish point.
With you on the issue of having enough material in the chamber wall for a given velocity. Good point about a 'soft point' not having the same level of expansion as a LHP, but what about a cup/dish HP? Post#3 (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=941925&postcount=3) looks certainly within the realm of 'soft-point,' but the kicker is how readily can you get a 'soft point' to expand, right?

Note: I'm asking the questions above based on the assumption (perhaps incorrect) that a large metplat 'soft-nose' will have better terminal performance than a clogged HP. I wonder how the terminal performance of a non-expanding i.e. clogged dish HP really compares to a large metplate FN. Perhaps better than a non-expanding LHP?
Soft point refers to a solid that is soft, not any form of cup/dish or HP. A soft, full meplate may deform if driven fast enough, like rifle vel, but at handgun vel, it would have to strike bone to expand much if at all. Something like a 45-70 @ 1500fps+ will expand a soft LFP.
If you are testing in wetpack & the HP clogs, the wetpack isn't wet enough IMO. It's why dry paper is a poor expansion test medium, it tends to clog & not apply any fluid pressure the bullet nose.

[looseprojectile]

that if you hollow pointed a solid boolit it will always shoot more accurately.
I have changed my thinking on that since all the newer designs of wide meplat boolits have shown up in the last 30 or 40 years. Accuracy and performance on game is excellent when alloy and velocity are optimized without a hollow point.
Did I say I don't relish casting hollow point boolits. I also like the Lee type Micro band boolits and Alox. Fast and effective. Get some with wide meplats.

Life is good

[Harter66]

Having asked just this sort of question several times in several places and having gotten similar answers that amounted to this "if you're going to kill it on purpose with a cast boolit make a big heavy flat pointed 1 as close to bore as you can get" . Paraphrased of course and reduced down to just what you have there.

At "hand gun"velocity (assuming I meant typical sub-1 inch pistol cartriges and the sub-1.3" revolver cartriges)I believe that soft hps will function as well as jacketed. As mentioned above if impact speeds are under1000fps aflatpoint will due as much damage and go deeper than those that open up.

[Dannix]

For game, I'll be using a 311-165, both as a 'soft-point' (dual part, or annealed) FN and as a HP for Partition-like results. Great read <here> (http://www.leverguns.com/articles/fryxell/casthollowpoints.htm) on HP 30-30.

Using cast for 'self-defense' or 'serious social purposes' or however you want to call it has been my realm of thought recently though (talking handgun here). Whole different ball of wax concerning penetration. This is why I want to avoid petal fragmentation -- want to reduce the likelyhood of an exit wound as much as possible.

Overpenetration may be less of a concern if you're shooting lower-sectional density large metplate FN, like in a 45 Auto, but 9x19mm has been my focus recently. The lighter 115gn 9mm JRN penetrated a whopping 23+inches in testing here (http://www.goldenloki.com/ammo/gel/9mm/gel9.htm), I imagine a FN wouldn't penetrate quite as far at the same weight, but often 9mm boolits are often heavier than 115grn as well. Caught my eye as in a populated area, I'd like penetration at half those levels.

Looks like I'm going to be forced to play with both FN and HP for 9mm. How trying life can be at times. :mrgreen: I'm tempted to give the GoldenLoki guys a ring once I got some boolits made to see if he can include them on his site. Will do the obligatory 'milk jug' tests as well.

[RugerFan]

My 45/70 Ranch Dog boolits don't expand in game but they don't contract either. Nice half inch hole and two holes to bleed out through.

This is my philosophy with big game as well and it doesn't require a .45 cal hole either. The wound cavitation and resultant tissue damage with a .30 to .35 cal round or flat nose (hard cast) bullet is impressive on deer and hogs.

[44man]

Self or home protection is where you do not want over penetration.
A fellow on another site said he keeps a Freedom .475 under his pillow and I told him I am glad I don't live in his neighborhood. [smilie=6: Are those sheep or boolits?
Hunting is different and you want two holes with much damage in the middle without too much meat loss. Some velocities with the right boolit needs no expansion but if you start to use different speeds you just need to tailor the boolit alloy for it.
Caliber, boolit weight and velocity need to work together.
Any energy lost on the other side of an animal is not wasted if the boolit does it's job.
Back in 1956 when I bought my first .44 and even before with .357's, I shot all kinds of stuff from engine blocks, wet paper, water and up to blue clay blocks since we could not hunt deer with a handgun in Ohio, all we could do was play and varmint hunt.
Seeing the expansion always made us say, "WOW, what that would do to deer."
Well it didn't and still doesn't.
I always used the heaviest bows and the heaviest arrows the bow would shoot. I have shot deer in the front of the chest and the arrow came out the butt and still stuck 10" in the ground. I have cut every bone in half and still penetrated. I have shot over 200 deer with bows and I refuse to change my thinking. No way will I shoot the high speed toothpicks used today.
I feel the same about my revolvers and boolits. No such thing as too big. I laugh when someone says the .475 or .500 guns are too big for deer! :lovebooli

[Shooter6br]

With the right alloy matched to velocity.I find the cast hollow point is darn good. See 200 g HP Mihec 45 acp

[outdoorfan]

Shooter6br,

May I ask what alloy & velocity that was shot at? Nice expansion, BTW.

[Piedmont]

"if you're going to kill it on purpose with a cast boolit make a big heavy flat pointed 1 as close to bore as you can get"

What does "as close to bore as you can get" mean?

[outdoorfan]

Having asked just this sort of question several times in several places and having gotten similar answers that amounted to this "if you're going to kill it on purpose with a cast boolit make a big heavy flat pointed 1 as close to bore as you can get" . Paraphrased of course and reduced down to just what you have there.




What does "as close to bore as you can get" mean?


Now this makes a lot of sense. Just hunt with a full wadcutter, no matter what. That's what "everybody" is saying, right? C'mon, we're better than advice like this, I think. [smilie=s:

[Shooter6br]

Ooops alloy was 25-1 the fps was 950 in my Sig 45 acp Distance 7 yrds Bullet weight pre 200 g post 198g( Milk jug with water)

[fredj338]

Ooops alloy was 25-1 the fps was 950 in my Sig 45 acp Distance 7 yrds Bullet weight pre 200 g post 198g( Milk jug with water)

Ya gotta love 25-1 alloy for LHP.:lovebooli

[gon2shoot]

I dont have a concern about over penetration as my nearest neighbor is 1/2 mile away. For awhile I ran the softest boolit that would preform accuratly ( this coming behind my "run everything as fast as you can" period).

What I find now is if I run a moderatly soft boolit (say 14/16 bhn for 1200fps loads) at a moderat speed, I can spend more time enjoying shooting.

[AZ-Stew]

What does "as close to bore as you can get" mean?

It means he wants the flat point (meplat) to be as near bore diameter as he can get. Almost like a full wadcutter. Makes a big hole and displaces much tissue.

Regards,

Stew

[Longrange]

My 45/70 Ranch Dog boolits don't expand in game but they don't contract either. Nice half inch hole and two holes to bleed out through. Just be careful there isn't another deer hiding behind the one you shoot. Don't ask how I know:groner:

I did a 2 for 1 last year with a 30/30 RCBS 180 FN, so I know how you did it.

:-)

[Dannix]

Self or home protection is where you do not want over penetration.
A fellow on another site said he keeps a Freedom .475 under his pillow and I told him I am glad I don't live in his neighborhood.
haha, I laughed out loud when I read that one. :lol:


Some velocities with the right boolit needs no expansion but if you start to use different speeds you just need to tailor the boolit alloy for it.
Could you elaborate a bit? You mean at, say, 1800fps non expanding FN is OK, but when going slower, go softer-nosed?


Now this makes a lot of sense. Just hunt with a full wadcutter, no matter what. That's what "everybody" is saying, right? C'mon, we're better than advice like this, I think. [smilie=s:
I think something like this is more of the idea: Gates Extreme Meplat Bullets (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=48098)


Ya gotta love 25-1 alloy for LHP.:lovebooli
I need to look into how well 25-1 performs at ~1100fps for 9mm. Not sure how well, which why I'm eying the 2-part route for non-plinking loads. gon2shoot, what's your alloy? 50/50 aircooled or waterdropped? Also, what calibers are you referring to?


Thanks guys.

[44man]

[QUOTE=Dannix;943894]haha, I laughed out loud when I read that one. :lol:


Could you elaborate a bit? You mean at, say, 1800fps non expanding FN is OK, but when going slower, go softer-nosed?

I do all of my hunting with revolvers after bow season. I found if you shoot too slow you should have a tiny bit of expansion if the boolit weight is enough for penetration. There is a lack of energy so cutting a larger hole seems to work better.
As you get between 1200 and 1400 fps with a heavy boolit and large meplat, you need no expansion at all.
Using this hard boolit too fast and it just pokes holes in deer with little internal damage and they go a long way, some will be lost. Once too fast it needs expansion again to slow it in the animal but you need to regulate it according to the animal hunted. Over expansion is as bad as none.
I shoot a lot of deer with hard 300 to 335 gr boolits from my .45 Vaquero at 1160 fps and it takes them longer to die on the average, sort of like an arrow. But they work.
As soon as I get to around 1350 fps with the .44, .475, then things change and deer are down quick with massive blood trails. Most just go 30 yards or less. Deer hit with the .475 do not know where they are at and if they run, they smash into trees and bushes, never running a trail.
The same boolits from the 45-70 at 1632 fps will just poke a small hole through with almost no blood on the ground so the boolit needs to be softer. I feel the meplat creates a pressure wave in front that moves tissue out of the way because lungs are almost intact except for a hole.
Since I do not use a rifle, I can't tell you what 1800 fps will do with hard boolits or pointier boolits. I also do not hunt large animals.
I have become a believer in "dwell" time in a deer and do not believe in muzzle energy figures at all. You just need to make the boolit do the work but it is, after all, the hardest part of hunting.
Hunting bullets of any kind have been a problem for hundreds of years.
It is so strange that a pure round ball from a cap and ball revolver will put deer on the ground RIGHT NOW. So how can anyone equate that to energy? They also penetrate the entire deer, side to side. Now my Vaquero would do the same with pure lead but accuracy and leading rule out soft boolits plus I can kill deer 4X farther with it.
Tests on soaked phone books shows a Remington 240 gr will have nice expansion and penetrate 11" shot from the .44. The 265 gr RD hard cast will do 33" yet kills deer better then the jacketed soft point.
The 420 gr WFN from the .475 does 37" yet works like lightning on deer. This is because the velocity range is correct for the boolits.
You need to shoot enough animals and do a necropsy on each, then adjust your boolit to do the job every time.
It is hard to beat BP and a big, dead soft ball or boolit.

[fredj338]

I need to look into how well 25-1 performs at ~1100fps for 9mm. Not sure how well, which why I'm eying the 2-part route for non-plinking loads. gon2shoot, what's your alloy? 50/50 aircooled or waterdropped? Also, what calibers are you referring to?

Thanks guys.
I've even run 25-1 to 1200fps+ in 357sig & 44mag, still good accuracy & expansion & no serious signs of leading.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/44-272.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/9mm-136-1200.jpg

[Dannix]

Using this hard boolit too fast and it just pokes holes in deer with little internal damage ... The same boolits from the 45-70 at 1632 fps will just poke a small hole through with almost no blood on the ground so the boolit needs to be softer. ... I have become a believer in "dwell" time in a deer
Ah yes. :idea: I remember someone, perhaps on the Gates Extreme Metplate sticky, talking about using a HP just as a way to slow the boolit down for more dwell time.

Thanks for the post fredj338. I'll have to give 25-1 a go.

I feel very much like a child gleaning wisdom from the wise. Thanks for all the comments. :bigsmyl2: