Group diagnosis please

[Char-Gar]

I took out my Longbranch SMLE and gave the Fatter 30 a try. This is only the second time I have fired the rifle. The first was about two years ago and I was getting 1.25" round groups at 50 yards. The load was 16/4759 with enough PSB to give some slight compression.

I sized the Fatter 30 .315 and loaded it over 20/4795 with no filler. The groups were about a half inch wide, but three inches tall (0.5 X 3.0). All four five shot groups were the same. There seemed to be no particular order in how they hit. They did not walk up, just formed this very tall string when all was done. The holes all seemed round.

I tried elevating the muzzle before each shot and not doing so. Didn't seem to make a differnce.

Let ASSUME it is not the rifle and some kind of pressure, but the load. What do you make it it?

[AZ-Stew]

I'd guess a large variation in velocity. Try shooting a couple of groups over a chronograph and see what you get.

If it's not that, check your action screws, sight screws and your bench shooting setup (bags, hold, is some part of the rifle touching sometning other than the bags, etc.)

Vertical stringing usually results from velocity variations, so that's where I'd start looking.

Regards,

Stew

[StarMetal]

Charger,

If it's not of those other things, like the action screws, you did make a big change in the load, a difference in the amount of powder and from using PSB to not using it. I assume you upped the powder charge because you didn't use PSB, where as in the other load the PSB decreased the volume thus raised the pressure, so did you figure that if there was more volume you'd up the powder charge? At any rate if it's not the other stuff I'd say you're in the dead zone for velocity and you need to adjust your load in .5 gr increments. I had this happen with my 260 Rem. In my case I had to go up in powder. I believe I'd start somewhere after the 16 grs and work up 1/2 gr at a time. Why did you decide not to use the PSB? Why not try Dacron with that 16 gr load?

Joe

[44man]

Joe is right, you made a drastic powder charge change with 4759. Go to Dacron if you need a filler. Every boolit needs a workup, you can't just select a charge and expect results.

[David R]

Try the original charge that worked with the new boolit.

David

[45 2.1]

Vertical stringing usually requires you to increase your charge, but SR4759 needs a good crimp to achieve correct ignition pressure also.

[SharpsShooter]

Anytime you change a major item in a given load, it is just like starting from scratch and should be approached that way. To change more than one item at a time without checking results makes the workup a hit or miss game (pardon the pun) I would head back to known loads and slowly work up from that point.

[Char-Gar]

Aarrrrgh... OK guys, let's do this by the numbers..

1. I do know when you change powder and/or bullet and or charge you can't expect the same results. I am not that dense.
2. I do know to work up from below to find the sweet spot.
3. The fact that the groups is big, doesn't bother me in the least, I can attribute this to the changes you mention..not a big problem.
4. What bothers me is the very pronounced verticle stringing. This rifle is trying to tell me something other than.. You changed the load so work up.
5. What I have is either some metal to wood fit problems or some significant shot to shot variation in pressure, and I was wondering if anybody has a guess which and why.
6. 20/4759 should produce about 1.7K fps, while the 16 grain load will give a couple hundred feet less.
7. I didn't use the PSB because I didn't want to fart with it, and I was not striving for an accuracy load..just to see how the Fatter 30 would do with a good powder at a decent velocity. Any serious accuracy work will come later.
8. I did just go and check the action screw and I got a full turn and a half on it. Maybe that was indeed the problem.
9. I am not that SMLE savy, so is that one big screw in front of the magazine the only one I have to worry about or is there something else I need to check.
10. These is some movement of the barrel where it comes out of the end of the stock. I don't know if this is natural for this rifle or not. It doesn't fit tight in the foreend like the Springfield and other US rifles.
11. When I get my round tuit, I will do this again with 16/2400. If it strings this load, the problem is not the load. I have shot too many of those in the 30-40, to know it give problems with pressure variation.
12. Keep the ideas coming, in AM listening.

[StarMetal]

Charger,

I for one, and I don't think the others, take you as dense. We're just covering the bases in a symtematic method. I've owned the MIII's but not the No 4's like you got. I know on the MKIII's there a screw and spring mechanism up in the forearm part of the stock that puts pressure on the barrel. I'm don't know if they carried this over to the No 4's, but guessing I don't think that they did as the stock looks smooth there. Now you found the one screw loose. I don't know how much the buttstock being alittle loose, but there is a giant long screw that goes through it to connect it to the back of the receiver.

You need to repeat your test now that you tightened the stock screw, before you change the powder back to the 16 grs. If this shoots better, then by God it was the screw. If not, we're back to the powder charge and perhaps the bullet.

Good luck
Joe

[mag_01]

Tightening that stock screw may solve your problem---Large screw in stock--go in from butt plate good luck

[Char-Gar]

Ahhh...I was wondering how that butt stock was held on.... I just took a peek...yep there is really big booger down there. I don't have a screw driver that long or that big..I guess I will have to buy one or is there some kind of magic incantation.

Joe.. I know you don't think I am dense....At time I am opaque...but never dense. I don't see any kind of springie thing up front. There are two metal caps (one top and other other bottom, held together by a band, that join to top and bottom wood at the muzzle.

I am almost embarrassed to admit that I have been messing with rifle for over 50 years and don't know jack about the British Lee Enfields. I have always considered them ugly mutts and have never found them attractive. I bought this one a couple of years ago, because it was at the hock shop cheap ($110.00) and has a very bright and clean bore.

[StarMetal]

Chargar,

That's what I was saying, I didn't think that your rifle had the spring thing. When you said your barrel stuck out the front I knew it wasn't a MKIII, their muzzle is just about flush.

Here's the schematics of the No 1 http://www.e-gunparts.com/productschem.asp?chrMasterModel=1990zNO%201%20MKII I

here's the No 4 that you have
http://www.e-gunparts.com/productschem.asp?chrMasterModel=1990zNO%204%20MKI

Your's may be a No 4 with a variation, like a different rear sight.

Joe

[Bass Ackward]

I bought this one a couple of years ago, because it was at the hock shop cheap ($110.00) and has a very bright and clean bore.


Chargar,

Well if Joe's comment irritated ya, you are going to love mine. IF there is no reason to believe that you have bad ignition to get velocity variation like that (I don't) and it doesn't turn out that the action screw had much to do with it, (movement isn't likely one just one direction) then my experiences point to the bore.

Either the bore is not totally clean, smooth, or this bore requires more of a black bore condition to settle it down. It is likely that there is some leading involved too. How many shots did you shoot before this group? Might be you could shoot that group again in a few rounds and have it work like a charm.

This is a good use for some really thinned down LLA on a patch for a clean bore with a greatly reduced first round to start the blackbore process off correctly. You can use your own lube which is even better because you establish the same lube right off and don't have to worry about the hardening associated with LLA. But that stuff is bore repair in a bottle if roughness can be a problem.

[Char-Gar]

Bass... Joe's comments didn't irritage me... I am just frustrated in general. Joe is a good guy and he never irritage me. There are a few (very few) on this board that do, but he isn't among that number. I always like to see his posts. I don't always agree with him, but he has given though to the issue, before he puts fingers to the keyboard.

Now as to your questions. I started with a clean, dry bore. I fired a total of 20 rounds in 4 five shot groups. All groups from the first to the last strung up and down as described.

I will give the bore a good cleaning and check to see if there is any lead. I will then do as you say, and thin out some of my lube to a thick liquid and run a patch of it up and down the bore. The lube for this ammo was big batch Felix.

What do you thin the lube with...mineral spirits?

I have also thought about painting the boolit noses with LLA. MY rifle has a two groove barrel with a bore of .305. I don't know the groove size and I have never been able to slug it. I have tried three times, but the grooves are shallow and the boolit just strips and rides down the top of the wide lands.

Anyway, the boolits nose tapers from .305 to .309 and that will displace allot of lead in it trip down the barrel.

Like, I said, large groups don't worry me, or even oval groups, but these groups were like a line of ants at a picnic, within a hair of be a perfect line straight up and down...really strange.

I should have saved the targets, but they were haveing a match down the line and it was hard to get a cold line, exept on their schedule . It was getting up to be 100 degrees so I gave the targets a good scope and beat a retreat to to the air conditioning. Lawd..but I am getting soft in my old age.

BTW...Guy... I am truly sorry if I sounded a little peavish..accept my apology is I bend any feelings a mite. As my Grandaddy used to say... "I didn't go to do it."

[StarMetal]

Chargar,

Thank you sir for your kind words. You're on my pardner list too. Do keep us informed as to what you find as you go along with that rifle.

Joe

[Bass Ackward]

Now as to your questions. I started with a clean, dry bore. I fired a total of 20 rounds in 4 five shot groups. All groups from the first to the last strung up and down as described.

I will give the bore a good cleaning and check to see if there is any lead. I will then do as you say, and thin out some of my lube to a thick liquid and run a patch of it up and down the bore. The lube for this ammo was big batch Felix.

What do you thin the lube with...mineral spirits?

I have also thought about painting the boolit noses with LLA.

It was getting up to be 100 degrees so I gave the targets a good scope and beat a retreat to to the air conditioning. Lawd..but I am getting soft in my old age.

BTW...Guy... I am truly sorry if I sounded a little peavish..accept my apology is I bend any feelings a mite. As my Grandaddy used to say... "I didn't go to do it."


Chargar,

From my experience, gun guys get irritated at two topics. Cleaning and tight screws. You would think I just told them their fly was open.

The last case of this was my dad this weekend. I was actually scolded for suggesting a cleaning. He told me he used JB and yada, yada, yada. He was clean and I was welcome to educate an old man. Well in went some lead remover and after 15 minutes out came a patch that looked like ornaments on a Christmas tree when you stood it up. His mouth dropped open, but I never got an appology. So I have learned to .... hunker down before impact.

Temperature could be the problem. Maybe because of your bore dimensions, you could benifit from some LLA on the noses. If the prior bullet doesn't leave enough behind because of temperature use, then the next one better have what it needs or you will lead. My hunting loads for fall are sub MOA below 50 degrees and will lead up the wazoo above 80 degrees. By the same token, my summer loads open to 6" below freezing. Remember, I am using soft lead.

Have I ever said how I hate bullet lube?

[felix]

Mineral spirits, paint thinner, ect. ,,, felix

[44man]

I had another thought about cleaning out leading. Most guys clean with a slotted rod end and it just doesn't work. Use a tight patch and jag setup and it will push out a lot of lead right at the start making it easier to remove any remaining lead.
Another thing that might cause verticle stringing is a weak firing pin spring. It will for sure open groups. This will drive a guy nuts and give up on a good rifle.
The bolt not fitting right, dragging, uneven contact on the lugs, etc can make the rifle string as it heats up. Many surplus rifles don't have the original bolts in them.

[carpetman]

44Man---Get a piece of .065 weed trimmer line and fold it and push it through the barrel from the muzzle. You can then place a patch/rag in the loop and drag a tighter patch through than you'll ever push through with a rod. You can use .130 weed trimmer line and push a patch through a .177 or .22 barrel not going to mess up a steel barrel with nylon(I know Joe--unless grit has been imbedded in it)

[Char-Gar]

44... Just for the heck of it, I will pick up a new firing pin spring. It won't hurt and the original has got to be a little tired by now.

[44man]

Let us know how it does and you might want to lap the bolt lugs a little. A small amount of lapping with about 400 grit paste will show right off if one lug is not touching as much as the other.

[KevMT]

Ahhh...I was wondering how that butt stock was held on.... I just took a peek...yep there is really big booger down there. I don't have a screw driver that long or that big..I guess I will have to buy one or is there some kind of magic incantation.
.

Charger
I have used an old dog leg shaped tire tool (with a lug socket on one end and a flat pry bar on the other end for removing hubcaps) as a make shift screw driver to remove the bolt on those types of stocks. It works pretty good (IF it fits in the slot of course) but make sure you are centered in the slot and not prying between the screw and the stock.

Kev

[44man]

Years ago I bought a very large and long screwdriver from Sears. Works like a charm. Yes, make sure it is in the screw slot!

[StarMetal]

If you buy a screwdriver get one with a square shank so you can use a cresent wrench on it to get alittle more torque. I don't know what kind of tools you have, but if you have any metal stock, like a long round rod that is big round enough, you could grind a nice flat tip on it and use it with a plier of visegrips for example, then you wouldn't have to buy a screwdriver. If you are more mechanically inclined and have "tools" you could make yourself a nice stock screw wrench/driver. I say this too because someone will say buy the screwdriver then you'll have it to use again.

Joe

[Char-Gar]

Uh Guys... Wolfe has lots of firing pin springs for the SMLE #4. They say the factory spring is 13 lbs and their new ones start at 18 lbs, and got up by 2 lb increments to about 28 lbs. This being a cock on closing bolt, how strong a spring can I go, before I have to hire a gorilla to close the bolt. I am thinking about 20 lbs. ..Ideas.

[BruceB]

To work on that stock screw in Lee Enfields, I find that a long socket-extension works great, because the larger diameter at the end of the shaft keeps the tool centered pretty well. Just add one of those big, flat-bit screwdriver "sockets" and you're good to go.

The #4 Mk1 Rifle is intended to be bedded with the barrel lying in the groove in the bottom of the fore-end, touching it along the bottom surface of the barrel. There should be enough room to the sides and top that the fore-end can clearly be flexed away from the barrel, an equal amount to each side and a reasonable amount in the "down" direction...that is, it should be possible to push the barrel up from its seat in the fore-end. (We're actually moving the fore-end, not the barrel, of course.)

Match-bedding of the Lee Enfield #4 is a whole different topic. It usually calls for glass-bedding under the chamber, and also at the midpoint of the barrel, as well as contact near the muzzle. I wouldn't worry too much about it at this early point.

Good luck...I have to get after my own #4, which has yet to shoot like it really should, being a brand-new rifle and all.

[44man]

I think most bench rest rifles are about 25# so 20 seems to be a good way to go.

[Bigjohn]

Chargar;

Most .303's have a square shank on the very end of the Butt Stock Bolt. This is use to lock it from undoing itself through recoil and it protrudes through the socket to engage in the rear end of the fore end. To adjust the screw you must remove the fore stock before adjustments are made otherwise you could split the forestock at it's weakest point.

No. 4 .303" were made to except at least three (which I have personally seen) rear sights excluding range type sights. All were made on the flip up system to change settings; the first type was an 'L' type with two aperture on different length arms for different distances. The second version was a pressed metal aperture and ladder type aperture adjustable for longer ranges. The third is Known as the 'Singer' micrometer type simular to the pressed metal but milled from solid stock, the next best thing to a Central Target type sight.

I can PM some photo's if you wish as my photobucket on this site is about full.

Some rifle may have a leather washer in front of the stock bolt head to stop the cleaning gear from rattling around in the stock. Check for one of these before you try to remove the bolt.

I hope this helps you out

Best wishes,
John.

[Char-Gar]

Bruce... I have lots of sockets and long extensions, I will get a bit, thanks for the tip.

Next payday, I am going to order out a Wolfe 20 lbs firing pin spring. While I am at it, I will get another for my Springfield Sporter as well.

BigJohn..Mine had the flip up sight on it. I replaced it with one of the Redfield adapters that holds Redfield receiver sighst. Mine has a Redfield 102 installed. It gives me a good adjustable peep sight. Works fine.

I will get this old Brit whipped into shape sooner or later. Thanks all for the input, I have learned allot.

[blackthorn]

For what its worth, I have found that some SMLE's have a true 'bolt' (no screw slot) type stock bolt. I made up a long tool by pinning a socket to an old BBQ rotisserie. Even has a handle on the end. Cant recall the socket size and I am not near my shed , so I cant go check.

[drinks]

Charger;
I believe a chrono would show a lot of velocity variations, I had 4" or more stringing with a certain powder, put 5 over the chrono and had from 500fps to 1400fps , added dacron to base of bullet and got 1500fps to 1575fps for the next 5 shots and then 5 on paper gave a ragged hole about the size of a golf ball, this was with a .45-70 and 405gr RN bullets