Shooting jacketed bullets to remove lead

[greg1]

Will shooting a few jacketed bullets remove lead from a leaded barrel?

[geargnasher]

Soon to come will be the long list of myths, legends, facts, advice, warnings, sarcastic remarks, arguments, etc. Enjoy!

Gear

[HammerMTB]

You'll get all kinds of answers to this, but I have done it many times where there is a small bit of lead- just some traces, most often near the chamber. It works fine.
If the leading is severe, I don't know as I haven't tried.

[Trey45]

When I rarely do get a little leading, if I shoot a few J word bullets it clears it right out. I have never had severe leading and cannot attest to the merits of J word bullets to remove heavy leading.

[Jack Stanley]

I used to use jacketed bullets for that and sure enough it seemed to clean it out but I found the leading returned just as fast .

What seemed to work for me was using gas checked loads , the leading seemed to be reduced somewhat after awhile .

Jack

[dbldblu]

Elmer Keith recommended shooting jacketed bullets to remove leading. I value his opinion more than most.

[462]

I've never tried it, believing that it just ironed in the lead. But, if Mr. Keith said it works, well...

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I tried it, didn't work for me.
Jon

[R.C. Hatter]

:coffeecom My experience has been that firing jacketed bullets to remove mild leading in a rifle, seems to work OK. I would NOT advocate the use of jacketed bullets in a heavily leaded bore for pressure/safety reasons. After such firing, the bore would require cleaning to remove copper/jacket material fouling.

[mooman76]

It also can ruin a barrel if it's heavily leaded.

[Hardcast416taylor]

Seems to me this old tire has been kicked a number of times on this site.Robert

[Gohon]

After such firing, the bore would require cleaning to remove copper/jacket material fouling.

There is the rub..........you wanna clean out mild leading or copper fouling which are both about equal to clean. Either way cleaning is required but it is also said before shooting lead, all copper fouling must be cleaned or it will strip lead and the barrel will lead worse. As to whether Keith recommend it or not...well I'd personally have to read it from his own writings to believe it. Bottom line is if you are getting leading to any degree other than just a light gray powder dusting then you have another problem that needs correcting. Correct that and you don't have to worry about leading.

[454PB]

Yes, it works. Mind the pressure, a leaded bore is technically an obstructed bore.

As was stated, a gas checked boolit works well, and also a very lightly loaded plain based boolit. It's the same principal as slugging a bore.....pushing a slug through the barrel slowly.

[waksupi]

The ones who say eliminate the cause in the first place, are on the right track.
Much better to shoot a few low velocity cast boolits to clean it out.

[303Guy]

How is firing a j-word through a leaded bore different ot firing one through an oily and bore? (I mean oily, not oiled and wiped with a patch). I would rather err on the side of caution.

The next time I find a need to clean out a leaded bore I shall be using a few paper patched boolits on top of a half case of grits over medium rifle powder, followed by a few wheat bran filled loads for polishing. I don't know if that will work but it does seem to clean out a bore pretty good.

[Lloyd Smale]

ive done it quite a bit but like waksupi said if its nessisary you need to fix the problem that cause it.

[sergeant69]

Soon to come will be the long list of myths, legends, facts, advice, warnings, sarcastic remarks, arguments, etc. Enjoy!

Gear

:smile::smile::smile::smile::smile::smile:

made my day. thanks!!

[qajaq59]

Seems to me this old tire has been kicked a number of times on this site.Robert Nahhh, only 46383957836475 times. LOL

Myself, I clean the lead before I shoot copper, and vice versa, so I really couldn't say either way. But if I had to guess I'd say I doubted it. Seems like it would smooth it out, not remove it. Jacketed bullets are awfully smooth to be used as scrapers.

[Rocky Raab]

Keith wrote on a manual typewriter by a kerosene light, too. If THAT was good enough for him ...

Seriously, though; I'm in the "one or the other" camp that cleans before changing bullet types. I consider lead fouling that's thick enough to warrant cleaning to be a partial bore obstruction - a risk I choose not to take with my guns and body parts, thank you.

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

I once leaded up a 30/30 M336 Marlin something horrible - the rifling disappeared - it was a terrible mistake.

I assessed the alternative of endless brushing or (worse) working it out with steel-wool and so forth and then compared these procedures to shooting it out.

I elected to shoot it out with jacketed. I had a few old Sierra 150 grain bullets sitting around, unused, so I loaded them up over 7 grains 700X and fired them into my big box of rags out in the casting shed.

The first recovered bullet was totally lead-plated. The next one was partially covered, the third showed lead in the rifling grooves, the fourth ran pretty clean and the fifth looked just regular as do any recovered bullets do.

The barrel followed the appearance of the bullets - progressively cleaner. After the fifth shot I was satisfied with the degree of cleaniness and returned to the loading bench, loaded up conventional cast bullet combinations and returned to completely satisfying shooting ever since.

In short, it works but I doubt I'd ever go to full-tilt lead loads for the "cleaning" procedure.

Good evening,
Forrest

[94Doug]

Wasn't there even the theory of loading the jacket bullets backwards and shooting the lead out?

d

[pls1911]

The best advice above is to avoid leading in the first place...
Highly recommend gas checked bullets when approaching common sense pressure/velocity levels in pistols and ALWAYS in rifle calibers.... never had any leading problems.

Have easily cleared lead in the past for others by treating with Ed's Red or Kroil the night before, then shooting a few gas checked bullets or J bullets (LOW velocity plinker loads only) like FAsmus describes above.

Regular cleaning and storage with Ed's Red, coupled with the appropriate bullet selections will preclude leading in any popular cast caliber... Well, at least in my experience with .38/.357, .41, .44, .45, .30-30, .308, 30-06, .35 rem, 45-70...

[AZ-Stew]

For the fourth or so time... A story that's been posted here before, but bears repeating...

30+ years ago a friend of mine showed me a M-28 Smith Highway Patrolman 6 inch that had a bulge in the barrel just ahead of the frame. Here's how it got there.

The revolver belonged to a friend of my friend. He wanted to do some cheap shooting, so he bought some of the Speer swaged lead semi-wadcutters. These bullets are nearly dead-soft lead and are excellent for shooting up to 900 fps or so. Instead of studying their limitations in the Speer reloading manual, he made the assumption that he could shoot full-power .357 Magnum loads with them. After a dozen or so shots, accuracy went out the window. The barrel was heavily leaded and bullets were "squirting" through the remaining opening in the barrel. His shooting buddies that day recommended that he shoot out the lead using a couple of jacketed rounds. The first one treated the leading as a bore obstruction and bulged the barrel.

A very light amount of lead streaking near the muzzle can safely be removed with jacketed loads, but full-length barrel leading should be addressed by other methods.

Regards,

Stew

[cajun shooter]

If you use Kroil and soak the bore over night. No chance of messing up anything that way.

[Changeling]

If it works so well why did the 45 revolver I bought last fall have layer upon layer of lead/copper fouling the barrel so bad it took several weeks of soaking to get it all out?
Veral Smith, a man of considerable experience, recommends getting every trace of copper out of a barrel.

Learning how to clean a barrel is as big a part of accuracy as working up a load or any other aspect of shooting. If it's to much of a choir, maybe you could hire a local kid to clean your guns for you, correctly.

[andrew375]

There are two problems.

1. Are you clearing the lead out or just pressing it further into the barrel surface and then covering it in jacket fouling?

2. Jacket bullet fouling is a lot harder to get out than lead fouling!

My rifles get cleaned on two occasions. Before shooting jacketed bullets and after shooting jacketed bullets. Except my M94 and .375 H&H, neither of which ever see a jacketed bullet, they get cleaned once a year. If I think about it.

[9.3X62AL]

I don't have a deep scientific reason for not running a jacketed bullet through a leaded barrel, other than it seems very darn unsafe to do. Lots of people have done it, and with great success.

Just like dacron wadding for powder-positioning in rifle cases. After my first swelled chamber, I ceased that practice. So, I classify the "jacketed bullet to remove lead deposits" right along with dacron fillers--a fine idea that works well--until it doesn't.

[splattersmith]

I use lead removal cloth. Simple, easy and safe. Use it rarely when a lube or another "test" goes south. Or when my buddy forces me to try his new, magic concoction. It is easier to comply than listen, forever.

I read something about lead under copper fouling as a no-no, which seems what the Badger break in procedure implies. Don't know about that but still wonder.

[sergeant69]

whatever happened to the LEWIS LEAD REMOVER?

[WARD O]

Some also say to use well fitted very hard cast bullets - they supposedly act the same way as jacketed but without the copper issues. Anyone have any thoughts on this procedure?

Ward

[gray wolf]

I cleaned my barrel and my pistol today after three trips to the range.
So thats about 600 rounds of shooting. I shot HP, SWC, flat point and round nose.
All different powder charges ( no max loads ) three different hardness of bullets.
None very, very soft and none very , very hard,
I didn't even look at the barrel, I just ran a bore brush in and out with a piece of chore boy
about 5 strokes, and then three clean patches. Barrel shines and is spotless in relation to any leading.
Well that's a great report from me but does not help anyone
What may help is to say that my bullets fit MY barrel and my lube works for ME
My accuracy is what I want.
I can't help but think in certain situations copper jacket bullets through a badly fouled bore
could/may create a high pressure problem. Since there are so many folks shooting fire arms that hardly know what end the bullet comes out ( not here I am sure ) I don't recommend it. What I do recommend is to slug the darn bore, shoot the right size bullets and use a lube that works.

Sam

[trapper9260]

I had shot some factory load lead bullets and had fouling. The bullest must of been swag with soft lead. The bullet went alover then I shot some jacket that I load and the leading clear. Then I shot some cast GC bullet I done myself and I had no problem after. The gun shot good.Oh by the way where I learn to shot jacket with leading is from the Lyman cast book. Yes you just make sure that you just donot have leading bad in the first place .Like orthers had pointed out.

[sergeant69]

still can't find any chore boy where i live.

[frankenfab]

still can't find any chore boy where i live.

Group Buy!!!![smilie=l:

Seriously.....when I worked for Kimberly-Clark we had these big rolls of copper mesh that we tore pieces from to wipe down polymer extrusion dies. I will see if I can find it, pretty sure it came from McMaster. The stuff looked just like chore boy, and it was like a 200 ft. roll.

[gray wolf]

Group Buy!!!!

Seriously.....when I worked for Kimberly-Clark we had these big rolls of copper mesh that we tore pieces from to wipe down polymer extrusion dies. I will see if I can find it, pretty sure it came from McMaster. The stuff looked just like chore boy, and it was like a 200 ft. roll.
I would be interested in a piece of that.

[frankenfab]

I would be interested in a piece of that.

I looked last night on the McMaster website and couldn't find it. I will get in touch with one of my friends who still works at KC and get the part#.

[sergeant69]

I would be interested in a piece of that.

me too!

[qajaq59]

I had to look in both the local supermarket and Wally world, but I finally found it. But be sure you read what it is made from. There are several types that are copper covered steel. And yeah, it'is in the fine print.

There is also some that is made from stainless steel specifically for gun barrels. I saw a thread that was talking about it and got some. It works too. Can't remember the name of it but I suspect someone in here will and say what it is.

[frankenfab]

OK, I have gotten the part# for the copper mesh. It is a 100ft. roll. Once I decide how best to go about a group buy, I will place a post in the group buy or site benefit section. I don't want to make any money from the deal, but I wouldn't mind seeing the site make some.

My work schedule is such that I never know for sure when I am going to have time to get by a post office other than Saturday, so I may contact someone else on the site about handling this.

Could somebody who just bought some chore boy please post how much it cost and how big a pad it was?

[HammerMTB]

Here's something related that kind of has blown my mind.
I shot a CC match yesterday. I usually have a comp'd bbl on my Glock and it has Ballard rifling. No comps for the CC match, so I reached for my stock bbl. Lo and behold, it wasn't cleaned the last time it was used, and has a modest amount of lead in it. Not a lot, but it was enough to make out, all up the bbl to the muzzle.
So, with nothing else to do, I just shot the match and figured I'd clean it up after....
Went to clean it up in the evening, and it didn't look like there was any lead in it at all! I could see a bit of powder fouling, but no lead streaks....
So I used the Lewis Lead rremover. I know I didn't need that tool, but it always saves all the leading on the mesh so I can see it. There was absolutely none!
I have no explanation....
It seems I shot leading out with a lead boolit.... :veryconfu

[sergeant69]

does anyone still sell the lewis lead remover? and count me in on the group buy of the chore boy stuff.

[frankenfab]

Last I knew, Brownell's has it. Mine came in a neat, antuique themed box. But I never have to use it!:mrgreen:

[Lloyd Smale]

sometimes shooting a bullet cast with a harder alloy will work just like a gas checked or jacketed bullet for removing lead.
Here's something related that kind of has blown my mind.
I shot a CC match yesterday. I usually have a comp'd bbl on my Glock and it has Ballard rifling. No comps for the CC match, so I reached for my stock bbl. Lo and behold, it wasn't cleaned the last time it was used, and has a modest amount of lead in it. Not a lot, but it was enough to make out, all up the bbl to the muzzle.
So, with nothing else to do, I just shot the match and figured I'd clean it up after....
Went to clean it up in the evening, and it didn't look like there was any lead in it at all! I could see a bit of powder fouling, but no lead streaks....
So I used the Lewis Lead rremover. I know I didn't need that tool, but it always saves all the leading on the mesh so I can see it. There was absolutely none!
I have no explanation....
It seems I shot leading out with a lead boolit.... :veryconfu

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
Have done it successfully with mild leading.
Also done it successfully w/ cast GC boolits shot as slow as possible.
Heavy leading, or just some leading the Cu chore boy wrapped around a old worn out bore brush does well. It is basically a home made Lewis lead remover.

[azcruiser]

When I was a teenager and worked at a gun shop in Connecticut we would go to Alexandria VA to Inter arms co to buy surplus rifles . Mostly old 43 Egyptian -8mm Mauser 6,5 swedes-765 Argentine's just ton of stuff.My job was to clean them and test fire them
since I lived on a 700 acre farm. After cleaning
I would shoot a few lead bullets then a few jacked one it made the rifling look much smoother and would fill in the pitting if any people would look down the bore and say O this one looks good and buy. Great childhood memories 200.000sf warehouse filled with gun stacked like cord wood for like 8 to 15 buck ea wish I could go back in time.Think it could shoot out of a pistol as per Keith but a rifle think it just smooches it into the bore

[FAsmus]

Hammer;

I have seen something like this in my Ruger New Blackhawk;

I fired some high-test rounds and noted the leading coming on in the forcing cone and somewhat up the barrel ~ I wasn't done shooting for the day by a long way and so I switched over to a moderate load of Lyman 452460 and light charge of 700X.

I fired some 25 - 30 of these, inspected the pistol to see what was going on and Presto! There was no sign of leading anywhere, just like I'd never fired those high-octane rounds at all.

Good afternoon,
Forrest

[honus]

I used to use a Lewis Lead Remover in my gunshop for customer's guns but once educated about the causes of leading, they seldom had leading problems.
One interesting observation: Bluing salts will immediately clean the lead or copper fowling from a barrel, but copper will eventually destroy the salts.

[knappy]

I to had leading in a 303 barrel badly, but 5 fmaj done the job then a light clean, and then back to shooting lead no more troubles since.

[HangFireW8]

whatever happened to the LEWIS LEAD REMOVER?

The company that made it, L.E.M. Gun Specialties, was dormant for a while, and then bought out by Brownell's. It is still available there, at their usual fabulous prices.

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=21587/Product/LEWIS_LEAD_REMOVER

I have one of the last of the original LEM models, and what a fabulous tool it is. I can recommend it for removing the lead left behind by factory lead loads, and handloads using commercially available cast slugs.

No word yet on removing homemade boolit lead, if it happens I'll get back to ya.

-HF

[turbo1889]

Half Jacket bullets are what work best for this; especially the ones where the jacket isn't crimped into the lead at the end of the jacket. They scrape the lead out of the bore instead of ironing it into the bore like most jacketed boolits with an ogive will do.

That's my $0.02

[Bass Ackward]

Shooting jacketed is a wonderful learning tool as long as it is low enough pressure loads. Shoot as many as you want and then shine a white or LED light in there and see how much lead remains.

If there is lead that remains there, it is there because you have a high spot someplace before that point. Jacketed bullets remove high spots because that is where they wear. And it is a sign that you need to do more before of something, more jacketed or fire lapping. etc.

The remaining lead is the lead that was deposited that helps you to seal. And very possibly why a dirty gun shoots better.

[BerdanIII]

The old CF Ventures wax wads worked very well for removing leading from pistol barrels. This wasn't their main function, but that's what I use them for. A cylinderful of lead bullet rounds with wads will clean out some pretty bad leading. If the chambers are leaded, it normally takes two or three rounds fired in each chamber to clear it out. I agree that an ounce of prevention (correct bullet diameter, alloy, etc.) is worth a pound of cure, but if you're stuck using (too) hard-cast commercial bullets, you have to find another way to skin the cat. Late in the game, the owner recommended that they be used only with case-filling loads so the wad wouldn't detach itself from the base of the bullet and become a secondary projectile that might cause ringed chambers. I don't know if they're around any more, since I read a notice saying that the owner had stopped production and was just selling out his then-current stock. He felt that nobody understood his product. You can probably get the same results by making your own wads with a pan lube formula and the bottle/pie plate method of making lube sheets for grease cookies.

I have also just fired a couple of light jacketed loads to clear out leading and that works, too.

[6bg6ga]

Brought back this old thread. At the range yesterday and shot a lot of cast bullets ( commercially made) thru my Glock with a Lone Wolf barrel. Ran out of jacketed bullets but managed to clean out the small amount of lead with a solution of 50% Hydrogen Peroxide and 50% white vinegar followed by clean dry patches followed by some Hoppies. Barrel in now clean and the whole process took 5 minutes. Will melt down the remaining 40 cal bullets and shoot only plated thru it now.

[asmith80]

That's interesting. Did you let the barrel soak in the peroxide/vinegar solution, or just get the bore wet and wait a couple minutes before running the dry patches through?

[mdi]

Do not allow the peroxide/vinegar mix to soak in the barrel for more than a few minutes. I have a Dan Wesson with a pitted barrel because I forgot (?) and let the mix soak for several hours...

[asmith80]

That sounds like something I would do. I think I'll just stick with Chore Boy

[6bg6ga]

Do not allow the peroxide/vinegar mix to soak in the barrel for more than a few minutes. I have a Dan Wesson with a pitted barrel because I forgot (?) and let the mix soak for several hours...

I let it soak 2 minutes.

[Wayne Smith]

Be very careful with that mix. You are making lead oxide, and it is absorbed through the skin.

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

I am amazed to see this old thread appear again!

The next story from me is that way back there I screwed up a cast load in a M336 Marlin. It leaded the bore up so badly the rifling was completely covered.

I thought it over and loaded up some jacketed bullets over a squib load of 700X, took it out to my casting shed and fired three rounds into a bucket full of wood chips.

I took the lever off and inspected the barrel ~ all the leading was gone. I cleaned the bore normally and never made that loading error again!

Good evening, Forrest

[whisler]

Be very careful with that mix. You are making lead oxide, and it is absorbed through the skin.
Not exactly, he's actually making lead acetate which is worse than lead oxide and absorbed easily.

[Texas by God]

I leaded up a P89 Ruger horribly with Lee TL124tc. 50 rounds of Wolf steel case 115 fmj brought it back nicely. It seems to work. A good way to remove lead from a barrel is to let it sit for a week or two. Then the oxidized lead will brush right out with no solvent. Try it and see.

[6bg6ga]

Not exactly, he's actually making lead acetate which is worse than lead oxide and absorbed easily.

I'm sure I'll be around for a little while longer after making it and cleaning the barrel. In my lifetime I have breathed a number of bad chemicals probably and absorbed some things thru my skin. I don't think this will kill me off.

[6bg6ga]

Be very careful with that mix. You are making lead oxide, and it is absorbed through the skin.

How am I making lead oxide when I combine vinegar and peroxide? Unless your speaking about the solution after the lead is dissolved. Never took chemistry. What is made when you combine vinegar and peroxide?

[Lloyd Smale]

yup if I was worried about small traces of lead getting into my body id have a different hobby.
I'm sure I'll be around for a little while longer after making it and cleaning the barrel. In my lifetime I have breathed a number of bad chemicals probably and absorbed some things thru my skin. I don't think this will kill me off.

[6bg6ga]

yup if I was worried about small traces of lead getting into my body id have a different hobby.

Just think bout all the lead particles that have touched my fingers when I cast, size and lube, and load. Seriously why should I worry about a small exposure to some lead from my barrel that has disolved in a mixture of vinegar and hydrogen peroxide. Heck I have used hydrogen peroxide to rinse my mouth after dental work and I use white vinegar in a cucumber salad that I make.

[blackthorn]

This is what information I have collected with respect to vinegar/peroxide as a lead remover. Most of what appears below has been gathered from this site and/or other sources. Hope you find it informative!

With use of proper precautions () Vinegar/peroxide (mixed 50/50) can be used to remove lead from the bore.

With some salt or Clorox mixed in (not to be used in firearms) the mixture is often used to etch steel reproduction items to match original finishes. This mixture will ‘frost’ a clean piece of metal in 30 minutes or less to provide a finish that equals a hundred and twenty years of rust and wear.

While the same mix sans the salt or Clorox when used as a lead remover is not as corrosive, you still must use extreme caution if you intend to use a vinegar/peroxide mix to remove lead from the bore of your firearm because it produces per-acetic acid.

Per-acetic acid, while commonly used as a sanitizer on some food processing equipment, is very corrosive to some metals. It is definitely not safe to use on brass or copper alloys, and will damage both carbon and galvanized steel. When it breaks down it will leave an acetic acid residue on metal surfaces. When we use this mix to remove leading from the bore of a firearm, in dissolving the lead deposits, it produces lead acetate which is extremely poisonous!!! Hydrogen peroxide raises the lead valence from zero to plus two, so that a minus one from the acidic acid ion initiates a rapid lead ‘rusting’ process, making grey colored lead acetate which is not sticky and therefore bubbles out. It cannot be stressed strongly enough that this grey liquid is pure poison, so do this well away from areas where food is (or ever will be) grown, prepared or stored and wear rubber gloves. Lead Acetate is absorbed through the skin very easily! This means any contact with the skin will result in some degree of lead poisoning. There really are better ways to clean lead out of a barrel. Notwithstanding the above, the mixture can however be used to remove excessive lead buildup from the bore of your firearm, if you are careful. The first thing to do is to remove as much of the lead buildup as possible using (approximately) a thirty inch strand taken from a ‘chore boy/girl’ pot scrubber wrapped round a worn out bore brush. Prior to pouring the mixture into the barrel, the barrel must be dry (no oil or other lube). To begin, clean the barrel with Ed’s red or a similar cleaner of your choice and then use rubbing alcohol on a bore mop or rag to remove any residual oil. The vinegar/peroxide mixture can be applied using a clean bore mop or it can be poured in to almost fill the bore as long as the chamber is tightly plugged. The mixture must not be allowed to come into contact with the exterior finish of the firearm, (either wood or metal) therefore, if you are pouring it in, do not fill the bore to the top as the stuff foams up and it will run over if it is too full. As noted above, this mixture has the potential to damage the bore so allow a two minute maximum soak for the 50/50 vinegar/peroxide mix to work and then wash out the barrel with tap water. Do not use distilled or deionized water. Under some circumstances using distilled water will create lead bi-acetate or tri-acetate, either of which are deadly poisons, so make sure the water you use is somewhat tainted. To be sure, add a quarter teaspoon of salt per quart of water. Under no circumstances let the barrel filled with the solution stand for longer than a maximum of fifteen to twenty minutes. Pour out the liquid and remove the chamber plug. Run a bronze brush through several times, followed by four or five patches. Pour some hot soapy water through the barrel and run several wet patches through as you do not want any of the solution to be left in the barrel. You may have to repeat the process a number of times depending on the amount of leading present. Run the chore boy through again and if the barrel is lead free, rinse with really hot tap water. Use a hair dryer or other heat source to be sure the barrel is moisture free and then use a water displacing oil such as WD 40.

BE SAFE!

[whisler]

Please read the above post carefully and heed the warning. Metallic lead and lead oxide are not absorbed through the skin. Lead oxide enters the body by inhalation or ingestion. Don't inhale it or eat it and no problem. Lead acetate is absorbed through the skin and into the blood stream very readily. McDonald's may not be good for you but this stuff is seriously poisonous. Do not get this on your skin. As a chemist, I have worked with lead, cadmium, benzene, many other hazardous chemicals and, in a controlled environment, even plutonium, and I would never use this method to clean out lead. PLEASE be safe.