Stupid question about "fillers".....

[O9Tacoma4x4]

I recently saw a post where someone mentioned, to the effect a filler for a tall case such as a .38SPC./ .44Mag, etc. And before I get the inevitable "Search is your friend." response, I really have tried. Both on here and thru google. I've come across corn meal as a result, then I've come across nearly twice as many posts saying corn meal is not good. Then another post had "Dacron"?. And no responses.

If I could just get pointed in the right direction, that'd be cool. I'm not sure what search terms to use other then "case filler". If it's not to much to ask as well, could someone explain how to calculate how much for a given charge/calibre combination as well? That was something I hoped would be in the tutorial on fillers or something I'd sort of use deductive logic to conclude. Thanks ahead of time to anyone willing to help.

[trk]

Dacron is commonly used (I use it) to keep a small charge of powder next to the primer. Otherwise the powder may ignight late (hangfire) depending on the position of the powder in the chamber. Kapok is a good one. Some folks will use a tissue.

Other fillers are used, such as COW (cream of wheat) and other things of similar nature.

In any case the extra volume taken up will increase the pressures. Start a little lower and workup just as you normally would work up to an accurate load.

I look for 'this WORKS for me' - there are hundreds of failues - but I'm looking to duplicate the successes.

[mooman76]

There is no real guideline to go by it for the most part is expeimental and some have experimented with it and founf things that work or not. If you use something heavy like COW then you pressures will increase more. Most I add the weight to the bullet weight to figure. I started having pressure issues with COW so I stopped using it. Someone suggested drier lint. I tried it as well as the dacron and they seem to work about the same on what I used.

[sagacious]

38Special and 44Mag are not really large cases. A standard primer will reliably handle even a small charge in those cases. The case volume is not that large.

If the loading recipe does not call for a 'filler', then there is no need for one. Reloading books such as the Lyman handbooks have dacron filler info provided for those recipes and cartridges (such as 45-70) that require this consideration, and amount/size of the filler is specified. The Lyman handbook warns not to use a filler "in any load unless specified in the data." Such a manual would be the best resource for you to consult for answers/info about fillers. Good luck.

[R.C. Hatter]

:coffee: The general use for a filler is to keep a relatively small charge of powder back against the primer flash hole in a large capacity case. Dacron is the preferred filler material these days, though the others mentioned have been used at one time or another. I have never in my 50+ years of reloading, found a need for filler of any kind in a pistol round such as .38 Spl. or .44 Magnum.

[Bass Ackward]

Filler should be considered / used anytime powder exhibits position sensitivity or great extreme spreads. I see it all the time cause I test for it.

45 Colt is notorious for being excess volume at standard pressure levels. So either bulky powders or extremely fast powders are generally used.

I simply refuse to use filler in handguns cause I load too many to bother.

Best fillers are powder and bullet or then a smaller case. But the other stuff mentioned works too.

[The Double D]

Keep in mind there is a difference between a filler and a wad. What TRK is describing about is a wad, not a filler.

Fillers are just, that some thing the fills and leaves no air space. Wads do things like position powder and leave a airspace.

TRK is also correct the a weight of the filler must be consider, but it is usually less than a grain or two. I use 3 grains in a .577/450 Martini case and it is a huge amount that probably would not fit a in an empty 357 Mag case.

If you use dacron fill the case and don't use just a tuft.

Bass ackward says it best "Best fillers are powder and bullet or then a smaller case"

[Rocky Raab]

I'll continue with a stupid follow-up question about "position sensitivity."

How often in real life do you:

Point gun at feet.
Cock gun.
Veeerrrrryyyyy slowly raise gun to level before firing.
Repeat for "quick" second shot.

Answer: about as often as pink elephants wear tutus.

[405]

tacoma4x4,

Hmm?

First, 38s and 44s are not tall cases and generally classed as relatively short, straight-walled, high expansion ratio cases.

Second, I just tried the search function on this Forum and found, using the following....

"filler" 47 Pages of thread topics
"dacron filler" 84 Pages of thread topics

[O9Tacoma4x4]

tacoma4x4,

Hmm?

First, 38s and 44s are not tall cases and generally classed as relatively short, straight-walled, high expansion ratio cases.

Second, I just tried the search function on this Forum and found, using the following....

"filler" 47 Pages of thread topics
"dacron filler" 84 Pages of thread topics

If "Whats a good filler type?" was your question, and you used the search feature on here (which I did) do you think thread titles like "Resizing brass", "Powder for unchecked gas bullets in 8MM", "Remember the old auto body lead?", "Bullseye Loads", "Softening a Cast Bullet"or "10 Grs. Unique. The Universal Cast Boolit Rifle Load?" are going to answer the "Whats a good filler?" question? Probably not. I sincerely tried this search, and google. Google more or less brought me here or to the THR website.

And actually dacron filler only brought up 27 pages for me. Maybe I've not unlocked the super search feature on my acct. yet. Mods, help me out?

I'm getting the gist that filler material is more or less not that desirable by reloaders. People in general would rather go to a bulkier powder then use the smaller :needs filled: powder. I'll probably do the dacron thing just to say I've done it. And the cornmeal thing. Load up and do 5 -10x stings each way with my guns petload and see if I make any noteworthy improvements. Thanks to those who chimed in.

[No_1]

Please try to remember that any filler which hardens once it is introduced to moisture (such as oatmeal) is not a good filler if it hardens in the case before you send that load down the barrel......

BTW, I used the our search engine to find post with "dacron filler" choosing the option "show post" which shows each individual post and got ~1253 which had the words "dacron filler" in them.

[geargnasher]

Things I have both heard AND personally found to be true about fillers:

1. Misuse or improper use of any kind of filler can be dangerous.
2. Proper use of fillers is both safe and very effective if needed.
3. Try not to need it, but a filler can improve performance.
4. WADS can ring chambers if tamped against the powder, leaving an airspace under the boolit. Use fluffy fillers and DO NOT tamp or compress them. Seen the chamber ring happen to a good Sharps copy using card wads and Unique.
5. The problem with COW and other cereal fillers is that when they absorb moisture they EXPAND like rice pudding, over-compressing an otherwise safe load without you knowing it. This happens in storage sometimes, and isn't a reason not to use them, just keep it dry, dry dry and be aware of the hygroscopic tendency.
6. Fillers, like paper patching, are not necessary for straight-wall pistol cartridges although they can sometimes improve performance if you want to futz with it.
7. Fillers are tools we can use to solve a specific problem IF that problem is present. There isn't a tremendous amount of published "how to" info on fillers because few want to stick their necks out. Check out the BPI shotshell buffer site, they have several kinds and they have a pretty good plug for using one of their granular, free-flowing fillers. You might learn something from reading that.
8. Some people think they have to pack Dacron tightly in the case to keep the powder from migrating, nothing could be further from the truth and in fact that *might* cause pressure problems if you aren't careful. Just a small fluffed-up tuft to fill the excess volume is all you need, others and myself have carried Dacron filled cartriges around for weeks in our pockets with cutout windows in the cases and no migration occured.

One more thing, here's an example of where I use a filler: .30-30 50-yard plinking load. Using Hodgdon Longshot (which has next to no volume) and no gas checks on the 311041s. I got a lot better accuracy using a 3/4 grain tuft of Dacron to fill the case, and also got a nice lube star compared to not using it. Not sure why it worked so well, but it did.

Gear

[The Double D]

Things I have both heard AND personally found to be true about fillers:

1. Misuse or improper use of any kind of filler can be dangerous.

True


2. Proper use of fillers is both safe and very effective if needed.True


3. Try not to need it, but a filler can improve performance.Yes try not to need, and they sometimes improve performance and sometime don't.


4. WADS can ring chambers if tamped against the powder, leaving an airspace under the boolit. Yes and no. Excessive air space is the culprit. Whats excessive?

Somewhere back in the olden days I was taught in loads less than 70% case capacity the powder had to cover the flash holes when slumped in the case. I have used that techniques with no ill results. I have not been able to find a documented source supporting that theory, so it fits into the unproven urban myth category.

It appears a big contradiction to theory is using bullseye in the 38 special. 4.1 grains of bullseye in a 38 SPL. 4.1 grains is not going to take a lot of space. But p ut a 140 grain wad cutter in that case seated flush and the airspace is substantially reduced. I doubt if the airspace left is less 30%


Use fluffy fillers and DO NOT tamp or compress them.Ross Seyfried writes extensively on using fillers with high volume British cartridges and he say fill the cases up and compress the filler.

Greame Wright in His book Shooting British Double rifles also promote filling the air space.

I use Kapok and compress it to get it in the case.


Seen the chamber ring happen to a good Sharps copy using card wads and Unique.Not knowing the cartridge and load no conclusion can be made.



5. The problem with COW and other cereal fillers is that when they absorb moisture they EXPAND like rice pudding, over-compressing an otherwise safe load without you knowing it. This happens in storage sometimes, and isn't a reason not to use them, just keep it dry, dry dry and be aware of the hygroscopic tendencyIt's going to take a heck of a bunch moisture to do this...lacking credible proof I put this in the urban myth category. I use to live in Houston and never saw my cream of wheat or oatmeal ever swell up, didn't even taste soggy. Everyone knows the humidity in Houston is wet.

But I still don't use cereal grains for anything other than case forming. When fired they tend to move as one mass. In tapered or bottle neck case they tend to slug up and extrude through the tighter neck and act like a solid mass. This is okay to form cases, but in regular use, my experience has been that they stretch case neck excessively


6. Fillers, like paper patching, are not necessary for straight-wall pistol cartridges although they can sometimes improve performance if you want to futz with it.I can't imagine using a filler in a pistol cartridge, but I don't shoot blackpowder in pistols either.



7. Fillers are tools we can use to solve a specific problem IF that problem is present. There isn't a tremendous amount of published "how to" info on fillers because few want to stick their necks out.All depends in where you hang out or what you read. I mentioned Seyfried and Wright. Add Sherman Bell to the list as well as Charlie Dell. THere is a good deal of credible information on fillers out there if you look in the right place.

Shotguns shells are the major user of fillers.


Check out the BPI shotshell buffer site, they have several kinds and they have a pretty good plug for using one of their granular, free-flowing fillers. You might learn something from reading that.
Haven't used that stuff, but I have used Puffalon and it slugs up solid in tapered and bottle neck cases. I have pictures.


8. Some people think they have to pack Dacron tightly in the case to keep the powder from migrating, nothing could be further from the truth and in fact that *might* cause pressure problems if you aren't careful. Just a small fluffed-up tuft to fill the excess volume is all you need, others and myself have carried Dacron filled cartriges around for weeks in our pockets with cutout windows in the cases and no migration occured.Like any load when you reduce the powder space you need to reduce the load. Dell found that a tuft of Dacron still led to ringing. You need to eliminate the air space, fill it with dacron, a fluffy tuft doesn't remove the air space. You do not need to compress the dacron into a solid mass, but a fluffy tuft is a waste off time. Pressure problems are not going to be generated by adding 3 grains of dacron, reducing the amount of free air space might.



One more thing, here's an example of where I use a filler: .30-30 50-yard plinking load. Using Hodgdon Longshot (which has next to no volume) and no gas checks on the 311041s. I got a lot better accuracy using a 3/4 grain tuft of Dacron to fill the case, and also got a nice lube star compared to not using it. Not sure why it worked so well, but it did.Longshot is a pistol powder and Hodgdon offer no load data for the powder, do you wonder why? So if you have problems with this load you can't blame the filler or lack there of.