California CCW

[DCP]

California CCW

In California do you have to CCW carry a unload gun or is something new they are trying to pass.

Thanks

[thx997303]

Last I knew they were trying to ban open carry.

[358wcf]

In Calif, concealed permits are issued by the County Sheriff's office. Each county is different. In general, coastal counties, and counties that are heavily populated, tend to be quite liberal in their politics, hence, concealed permits are politically incorrect.
In the rural areas, and the sparsely populated mountain counties inland, populations are low, politics are conservative, and permits can be had, but the qualifications are rigorous and a permit is considered a high privilege. Being a friend of the Sheriff definitely comes into play here, and political contibutions don't hurt anything, either.
Remember, Sheriff's are elected here.
So there you have it-- some counties see it as a privilege for the few, but in most, the answer is "NO WAY".

358wcf [smilie=1:[smilie=1:[smilie=1:

[462]

Californians can openly carry an unloaded gun. That is what the bruhaha is all about, as liberals are as intimidated by an unload gun as they are one that is loaded. Actually, it has nothing to do with intimidation -- that's just the excuse -- but about rights and freedom.

By the way, although an loaded gun can be carried openly, ammo can not be on the person. In other words, if the gun is unloaded and the ammo is in your pocket, the gun is loaded...if the gun is on the passenger seat and the ammo in the glove box, the gun is loaded.

[3006guns]

I wasn't aware that carrying ammo separate on your person was considered "loaded". Asinine.

On the other hand, I've had a California CCW and was astonished to find that it wasn't legal in counties other than my own........and it says "State of California" right on top! So, that means my driver's license isn't legal outside my own county? We have a fouled up state........

[DCP]

Please explain the coments in red


Californians can openly carry an unloaded gun. That is what the bruhaha is all about, as liberals are as intimidated by an unload gun as they are one that is loaded. Actually, it has nothing to do with intimidation -- that's just the excuse -- but about rights and freedom.

By the way, although an loaded gun can be carried openly, ammo can not be on the person. In other words, if the gun is unloaded and the ammo is in your pocket, the gun is loaded...if the gun is on the passenger seat and the ammo in the glove box, the gun is loaded.

[462]

dcp,
Do you live in California? If so, you may want to read the state's DOJ rules on open and concealed carry. Your interpretation may be different than mine. Laws are written by lawyers, in legalese, and can take on a different meaning to a non-lawyer.

In California, a person can lawfully and openly carry an unloaded firearm, without a CCW permit. There is movement afoot to repeal that law.

In the first sentence of my second paragraph, I menat to say unloaded. I apologize for the confusion.

358WCF clearly explained the CCW permit nuances. I will add that, at least in the county in which I live, liability insurance is required.

[thx997303]

462, IF I recall correctly, you CAN carry ammunition on your person, HOWEVER, it cannot be near, or inside the firearm.

I will have to check into this, as this is only what I THINK I remember.

Edited to add: I found it. PC12031 is the law. Anywho, what I said above was correct. In order for the firearm to be considered loaded

"Loaded firearm defined as when there is an unexpended cartridge or shell in, or attached in any manner to, the firearm, including, but not limited to, in the firing chamber, magazine, or clip thereof attached to the firearm."

See case law. CASE LAW (People v. Clark, 1996) CA Court of Appeals states for a firearm to be loaded it must have ammunition “placed into a position from which it can be fired”.

This only applies to incorporated areas, as Loaded open carry is legal in unincorporated areas.

[AZ-Stew]

This only applies to incorporated areas, as Loaded open carry is legal in unincorporated areas.

Correct. For those who don't know, the legalese "incorporated", means "in the city limits". "Unincorporated" means "out in the boonies". You can carry a loaded firearm on your person when you're in the National Forests or out in the desert areas, BLM land, etc.

Regards,

Stew

[462]

thx997303,
Thanks for the "loaded" clarification.

[DCP]

462

No I don't live in Cal.
I live in IL. It sucks big time

I have a Utah CCW. It was good in 37 states

WE cant have a CCW carry in IL [smilie=b:

If hunting or fishing we can have a loaded weapon.

I was reading about this and wanted some clarification

Thanks

[SciFiJim]

On the other hand, I've had a California CCW and was astonished to find that it wasn't legal in counties other than my own

Not true, although there are some cops that believe that it is. I have a CA CCW. It's valid everywhere it the state except the normal areas (government buildings, Post Office, etc). My CCW instructor lead us through the laws that pertain to this.

[3006guns]

Thanks for that SciFiJim.......my statement was from an incident years ago involving the police chief of San Jose. Being anti gun, he stated that he would arrest anyone with a CCW not issued by HIM........and he didn't issue them, a direct violation of the law since it states that they "shall issue". Fortunately he's gone.

[462]

3006guns,
California is a "may" issue state, unfortunately. Highlight added.

From the state DOJ site: A license to carry a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person
may be granted to qualified residents of a county by the sheriff or to qualified residents of a city by
the chief or other head of the municipal police department of that city.

[3006guns]

O.K.........then I'm slightly out of date, because I read the law many years ago and it definately said "shall issue". Something's changed............and not for the best as it gives a local law enforcement official the power to decide who should be licensed.......at his descretion.

At this point in time I'm in good stead with our local LEO's at both the city and county levels, so obtaining a CCW is not a problem. However, since the state suddenly upped the fees so much I just decided not to bother. Our taxes and fees are high enough as it is.

You'll get a kick out of this.......I applied for my first CCW back in 1981. It was (and still is) required that you bring in the firearm so they can verify the serial number prior to issuing the permit. Okay, so I walk into our local sheriff's office and dumped seven handguns of various types on the counter. The female deputy looked at the pile and said "You can't do that". "Why?" I asked........"There's no limit that I know of...." "Yeah" she said, "But they won't all fit on the form!"

I think I had the only permit that said "see attached".........

[ReloaderFred]

I retired as a Commander from the Sheriff's Dept. in the third largest county in California, based on square miles, (8,026) 15 years ago. My county also accounted for one third of the CCW permits issued in the state, and because of that, received a lot of heat from Calif. DOJ over the years. For the most part, we had very pro 2nd Amendment Sheriffs. Just before I retired and moved out of the state (the same day of my retirement), the Sheriff at that time caved into the pressure from CADOJ and started limiting the number of permits issued, and the reasons for issuing them. If I remember correctly, the numbers went from over 4,600 permits to something like 2,500 or so. I have no idea what has occured since I left that area.

In my 26 years with the Department, I only pulled two CCW permits. One was the result of a bar fight and the other was a Reserve Deputy who did something really, really stupid, and caused me to also pull his reserve commission. There were no problems with 99.9% of the CCW permit holders.

At the time, you could have a maximum of three handguns listed on the permit, and you were only allowed to carry concealed a firearm that was listed. Any other firearm was considered illegal. This was the state law, not the policy set forth by the Sheriff's Office.

California was always a "MAY ISSUE" state in the over 50 years I lived there. I now live in a "SHALL ISSUE" state, and am very aware of the difference between the two. Some heads of departments never issued permits, and some did, depending on who was the Chief or Sheriff at the time. I remember when LA County had one permit issued, to George Putnam, an investigative reporter who made his mission in life going after the bad guys. That was back in the 1960's, when the media was still honest for the most part. That way, the Sheriff of LA County could tell the public he issued CCW permits.

There were some jurisdictions who said they didn't recognize CCW permits issued by other counties and cities. San Jose, San Francisco and Los Angeles come to mind, but I'm sure there were others. In fact, one of our off duty Deputies was arrested for a short time in San Francisco for CCW, but was released when taken before the desk sergeant, who apologized to him for the incident.

As noted by some posters, the rural counties are/were much more gun friendly than the urban and coastal counties. The rural counties for the most part are pretty conservative, but the population numbers are in the urban counties, hence the mess California politics and state government are in now.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[stephen perry]

Otherwise I tote guns anywhere I go in California, unloaded that is. CCW's are generally for business owners that transport money from business to banks and wimps that are afraid of their own shadow. I worked in several gun shops since 1968, 25 yrs in one alone as a second sometimes third job, transported money did all the things a small business does and never toted a gun, thing is I'm not a wimp and can defend myself. I have shot and do shoot rifle, pistol,shotgun, and hunt in California, Arizona, Nevada, Texas, New Mexico, Missouri, and Ohio. Never had a problem never needed to use a gun to protect myself. I don't talk bad about locals don't talk politics, don't talk illegals. I have been NRA Life since 1973. I am a Shoot Director NBRSA, RSO, belong to 5 gun clubs and a couple hunting clubs. I have found you Cast bullets, make jacketed BR bullets, hunt, support your gun clubs, don't break laws, give your wife credit for what she does, do your job well, and give your Creator credit for what you know and life will be just fine.

George S. Patton had it right fight the Russians while the Army was in Europe, he knew the Germans weren't the only bad guys in Europe. One infamous coward and his wife traveled to California recently and wanted to come loaded because he feared the illegals. I told him if he gets caught carrying a loaded gun in his RV he would face felony charges. Told him that Texas where he is from has more illegals coming over everyday than California.

Fear seems to be the driving factor for the people seeking the CCW permit. Trying to shoot your way out of a situation that you probably got yourself in by opening your big mouth is not the reason to have a CCW. To me a CCW is for the small business owner that is trying to even the odds with a street punk on a bad day. Personally since I am a College/High School Wrestling Coach I would twist the guys neck and put him off the streets, hopefully then he will re-evaluate his life and get a job.
Done.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

[DCP]

Well coach

You are as bad as the people you describe. SHAME ON YOU

I sure hope you don't get old or ever get disabled etc.........

WOW

You really don't get it do you. ( See what a college education can do)


I here by cut off your buttons and break your saber in two.


DONE


Fear seems to be the driving factor for the people seeking the CCW permit. Trying to shoot your way out of a situation that you probably got yourself in by opening your big mouth is not the reason to have a CCW. To me a CCW is for the small business owner that is trying to even the odds with a street punk on a bad day. Personally since I am a College/ High School Wrestling Coach I would twist the guys neck and put him off the streets, hopefully then he will re-evaluate his life and get a job.
Done.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

[SciFiJim]

CCW's are generally for business owners that transport money from business to banks and wimps that are afraid of their own shadow.

You probably think everyone that owns a pistol or EBR is into being tacticool as well. Boy or you wrong on so many counts. I have a CCW for the same reason I own guns, because I CAN. Whether I carry or not is no bodies business by mine. There are times when I can not carry and there are times when I can. It's up to ME to decide if I will or won't. A choir boy intent on spreading the wealth is going to have to guess and take his chances. Him knowing that there are ordinary citizens that might be carrying will hopefully help him to make wise choices. If he knows that CCWs are limited in number in an area, he might be more willing to take a chance. I want him to realize that the area I live in is too risky because there are too many people with CCWs for him to risk it.

[9.3X62AL]

Mr. Perry--

Rational fear of attack is a reasonable and justifiable feeling with the catch & release criminal justice system now in place. I strenuously disagree with your take on this subject, sir.

The "legal definition" of "loaded firearm" varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction in CA. In Riverside and San Bernardino Counties, the ammunition had to be attached to the firearm in some way for the District Attorney's Office to deem the firearm loaded per 12031 P.C. In Los Angeles County, "simultaneous proximity" completed the crime--if gun and ammo were both within simultaneous reach in a "public place" (another 'weasel word' definition), then don't pass GO and don't collect $200.

[Suo Gan]

My grandpa had a CCW for many years. He owned a small pawn shop and was assaulted in the late 80's where he almost lost his life. The sad part was that he was in a wheelchair and paralyzed from the waist down, but that did not stop two young men from almost ending his life. He got a CCW shortly thereafter for peace of mind and it probably ended up saving the life of his young bookeeper one day as well. He was a mean SOB in the war, and spent over 700 days on the front lines in N. Africa and Italy!!!! He starved, and killed men with his bare hands, and he was not a coward by any stretch of the imagination. A gun is the great equalizer. It can cause great destruction and also be a life saving helper in time of need. There is always someone meaner, badder, and doped up enough to be able to put a fist through a plate glass window, unlock your door and put a pitchfork in your kids backs when they are sleeping (as happened to my neighbor 9 years ago). Fear driven...you bet! In the same way nukes are fear driven, and terrorism counterinsurgency is fear driven.

[ReloaderFred]

Mr. Perry,

You have obviously never spent any graveyard shifts in a patrol car, where you see how evil man can be to his fellow man. Believe it or not, there are people in this world who get pure enjoyment out of inflicting suffering on their fellow human beings. They don't need a reason, other than you're in their sights when they're of a mind to spill blood. I've dealt with those people and I've looked pure evil in the eye many times. It's chilling to deal with persons who have nothing but contempt for other humans and don't need a reason to kill or maim, and then laugh about it when they're done. I've been shot at several times "on the job", and I never liked it, but they were all bad people, doing bad things. As the younger generation says, "you sir, don't have a clue".

I've seen boxers, wrestlers, martial arts experts and street fighters cut to ribbons, or shot, on the mean streets. If you think your wrestling skills are going to protect you from someone who is proficient with a knife, or armed with a firearm, you are very sadly mistaken, sir.

I've also seen lives saved by the presence of a firearm. In some cases it was only displayed, but in others it had to be actually used. As the gun ban crowd is so fond of saying, "if only one life is saved, it's worth it". I say that if one life is saved by the presence of a firearm, then it's worth it.

I'm also an RSO, NRA Rifle Instructor, Match Director and Endowment member of the NRA. I'm also a graduate of the FBI Firearms Instructor Course at Quantico, VA. I believe in the right of law abiding citizens to legally carry firearms. I do think instruction is necessary, and I teach in the Handgun Safety Classes our state requires. And while it has no bearing on the issue at hand, I'm also a former Marine Sergeant.

I'm now getting too old to fight, especially with someone half my age, so I carry a firearm every day when I'm away from home. My hope is that I'll never have to use it, but if it becomes necessary, I have the skills and mindset required for it's proper use. My carry is covered under HR-218, the Peace Officer Safety Act of 2004, so I can carry nationwide, which I do. I hope that someday every law abiding citizen will be able to also carry nationwide.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[lwknight]

Its hard for me to stay open minded and not lose respect for all educators on Perry's account.
Perry , is mayor dayley related to you?

[wills]

462

No I don't live in Cal.
I live in IL. It sucks big time

I have a Utah CCW. It was good in 37 states

WE cant have a CCW carry in IL [smilie=b:

If hunting or fishing we can have a loaded weapon.

I was reading about this and wanted some clarification

Thanks

Carry fishing tackle at all times.

[Heavy lead]

Otherwise I tote guns anywhere I go in California, unloaded that is. CCW's are generally for business owners that transport money from business to banks and wimps that are afraid of their own shadow. I worked in several gun shops since 1968, 25 yrs in one alone as a second sometimes third job, transported money did all the things a small business does and never toted a gun, thing is I'm not a wimp and can defend myself. I have shot and do shoot rifle, pistol,shotgun, and hunt in California, Arizona, Nevada, Texas, New Mexico, Missouri, and Ohio. Never had a problem never needed to use a gun to protect myself. I don't talk bad aout locals don't talk politics, don't talk illegals. I have been NRA Life since 1973. I am a Shoot Director NBRSA, RSO, belong to 5 gun clubs and a couple hunting clubs. I have found you Cast bullets, make jacketed BR bullets, hunt, support your gun clubs, don't break laws, give your wife credit for what she does, do your job well, and give your Creator credit for what you know and life will be just fine.

George S. Patton had it right fight the Russians while the Army was in Europe, he knew the Germans weren't the only bad guys in Europe. One infamous coward and his wife traveled to California recently and wanted to come loaded because he feared the illegals I told him if he gets caught carrying a loaded gun in his RV he would face felony charges. Told him that Texas where he is from has more illegals coming over everyday than California.

Fear seems to be the driving factor for the people seeking the CCW permit. Trying to shoot your way out of a situation that you probably got yourself in by opening your big mouth is not the reason to have a CCW. To me a CCW is for the small business owner that is trying to even the odds with a street punk on a bad day. Personally since I am a College/ High School Wrestling Coach I would twist the guys neck and put him off the streets, hopefully then he will re-evaluate his life and get a job.
Done.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

Well Stephen, I am 44 and still power lift, in fact still can free weight bench press 450 pounds, and I suppose could twist someones head off if I could catch them before I was shot, or stuck.
Frankly, I question your sanity with the above post. Good luck with the neck twisting, as for me I'll carry.
Freedom is the true reason for carrying, that's a fact. I truly hope some bangers don't ever get a hold of you so you'll have to "re-evaluate" your life.
Good Luck.

[John 242]

Wow. After reading Mr. Perry's post I really wanted to jump all over it and really let him have it. Honnestly though, it's pointless. He is entitled to his opinion and nothing said here will change it.
I grew up in the Hawthorne and Inglewood area in the 1970's and 1980's and it's sad that such a beautiful state has such terrible politics.
Violent crime was real and very prevelant where I grew up, at least in that time frame. I knew people that CCWed illegally because they figured it was better to be arrested than killed by some scum bag for $20. I remember one guy was killed up the street from me as he was walking to his car in a grocery store parking lot. He gave up his wallet and was shot anyway.
A childhood friend of mine was shot in the chest with a 'mouse gun' during a robery.
A store owner was killed as he exited his car with money for check cashing. Obviously someone knew his pattern of going to the bank Friday afternoon.
I could go on and on because as I said violent crime was systemic.
The point is that in California you may have the 'right' to defend yourself, but without the means you're a victim in waiting.

Niether being a 'good guy' and minding your own buisness or being 'strong' is going to do a lot of good if you simply happen to be at the wrong place at the wrong time.

I have met victims of viloent crime that have 'seen the light' when it comes to CCW and yet have met others that couldn't see the truth because they simply refuse to except it. And what is the truth? The truth is that although having a gun on your person may make no difference whatsoever in vilolent situation, at least you have the option to use it. Not having a gun simply makes you an unarmed victim with no choice in the matter.
99.9 percent of CCWers will never have to draw a weapon. Nearly all will go about their lives just like everyone else does every day; they carry their weapon for the same reason we have a fire extinguisher in our home, a spare tire in the trunk, or a little bit of money put aside for emergencies... just in case.
Carrying a gun doesn't make you paranoid, it simply makes you prepared.

I have been trained in combatives and I'm reasonably good at grappling, but I would have to be foolish to think that in the real world I'm going to be wrestling around with some dirt bag. Talk about a recepie for disaster.

The thing that really bothers me is that we 'shooters' really don't seem to stick together when it comes to our rights. The up'ity trap shooter has no problem with bans on handguns. The deer hunter doesn't stand up when there's an attack on so called "assault rifles". The bench rest shooter doesn't mind when his fellow citizen can't get a CCW permit. Gun Free Zones... sure why not.
I know, I'm probably preaching to the choir... or am I?

[waksupi]

I used to box in years past. Wasn't all that bad at it, either. However, that was by choice. If some gremlin decides he wants to play games with me, he is most likely going to get ventilated. I see no reason to ruin my manicure playing games with goons. It is a fool who would do so. Why should I play their game? If they start it, we will play by my rules.

[stephen perry]

Seen you guys and listened to you CCW guys for 25 years at H & S Shooting Supplies. All I got out most of you is that vigilante justice is mine cause the law says so. As a non-felon local citizen I could have gotten a CCW but for what. In Ontario close to Pomona the Chief of Police gave my boss a CCW, he stated at that time only 10 CCW's were current in Ontario. My boss proceded to pull his piece on 2 guys dumping trash in his trash can in back of his store the next week. The guys laughed at him. I told his dad, the other owner who was saving us a seat at the diner. His dad and I went back stared these dudes down and had them remove the trash, no gun even though he had a CCW in Pomona. Most times letting the odd guys know who's boss get's the job done. I work as a road engineer in San Bernardino County, the real Wild Wild West. I am out in the most remote areas of our County nearly everyday. Bad guys all around. I never carry a gun out in the bad lands though I have more than most on this Forum. I shot yesterday at WEGC in Lytle Creek, above Fontana. Went up there un-loaded shot came back un-loaded. lots of bad guys in Fontana so what. I grew up in Pomona and work in San Bernardino don't get much rougher than that in So Cal. Next time you pull your piece on somebody think about what you are doing to damage our 2nd amendment rights in the Public's eyes. There are way more Voters out there that would love to turn us into another England or Australia, confiscating our life-time gun collections, I prefer to keep what I got.

Like I said a CCW has a place. To me it is for the small business owner carrying money and operating their store. Others that feel they want to be the law go join the law. This is an old subject let's move on. At 8:00 I will be at Angeles Range painting my target frames for our upcoming BR program that I will be Shoot Director at again, past BR Shoot Director at San Gabriel Range for 11 years.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

[DCP]

I really wish there was away to remove you from the shooting sports
I really believe you shouldn't have any weapon's

I would never be on the same range with you.

You are so full of yourself its frightful

Now you did turn in your boss to Police for misuse of that CCW. Didn't you
You could be the reason we could end up like England.

I sure didn't know that (odd) guys had so much power

Again

SHAME ON YOU



In Ontario close to Pomona the Chief of Police gave my boss a CCW, he stated at that time only 10 CCW's were current in Ontario. My boss proceded to pull his piece on 2 guys dumping trash in his trash can in back of his store the next week. The guys laughed at him. I told his dad, the other owner who was saving us a seat at the diner. His dad and I went back stared these dudes down and had them remove the trash, no gun even though he had a CCW in Pomona. Most times letting the odd guys know who's boss get's the job done.

Like I said a CCW has a place. To me it is for the small business owner carrying money and operating their store. Others that feel they want to be the law go join the law. This is an old subject let's move on. At 8:00 I will be at Angeles Range painting my target frames for our upcoming BR program that I will be Shoot Director at again, past BR Shoot Director at San Gabriel Range for 11 years.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

[3006guns]

I wasn't going to reply to any of this.......until I thought about it for a minute or two.

First of all, pulling a gun and threatening someone for dumping trash is butt stupid. That firearm, legally carried, is a last line of defense when your life is in danger, period. Brandishing a weapon in such an irresponsible manner is a good way to see the inside of the graybar Hilton very quickly. You don't use a deadly weapon to impose your will on another.

Second, why is a business owner the only one permitted to carry a defensive weapon? The rest of us.......well, it's just "too bad"? Wanna run that one by everyone again? I just don't see the logic.

Third, I believe you said that a CCW is for "wimps afraid of their own shadow". Really? I grew up in a proud family of police officers and learned to shoot at a very tender age. Along with that training came the responsibility of using a firearm correctly. The definition of "correctly" is to use any means to AVOID using it, including running away. I'll leave the macho stuff to Hollywood, yet......I'm no wimp.

Mr. Perry, you mentioned "seen you guys and listened to you CCW guys for 25 years at H&S Shooting Supplies". You also mentioned "vigilante justice". I can assure you that you didn't see ME at H&S, nor did I make any corny remarks about any sort of street justice.

I have loaded firearms in my home. I have carried a revolver on long road trips. I don't consider it a sign of "manhood" or that it makes me "cool". I pray to God I never have to use it, but if the situation arises I will. I made up my mind on that many years ago.....without the determination to defend your own life a gun is nothing more than a useless lump of metal.

I never boast, brag or brandish. Only an idiot or drugstore cowboy would do that.

In short, how dare you tell me that I shouldn't be allowed to carry. It's MY LIFE bub and you have no right to dictate whether I can defend it or not.

[SharpsShooter]

06, ya covered it well and saved me some typing. It seems Mr. Perry is of the opinion that only select individuals should have the right to a CCW. The question I have for him is just who should get to decide and where in the Constitution or Bill of Rights is the legal authority to do so?

It's the "elite only should have CCW" attitude that bespeaks a liberal mindset that in no way benefits the firearms owning community.

What I find most appalling is that a young shooter might believe his horse **** rhetoric and create another misinformed and misguided individual. As far as I'm concerned his expressed opinion makes him about as sharp as the pointy end of a bowling ball.


SS

[stephen perry]

I have already Cast several hundred boolits this morning and will Cast some more when I get home. Seems like some of you guys travel from shooting forum to shooting forum discussing CCW and more time after time. Most with handles. I am who I say I am not hard to find at So Cal and Arizona shooting ranges. I carry no concealed weapon no need to, didn't say I don't carry a weapon just not concealed. Remember guys by having a CCW you are registered and a CCW can be revoked at any time. Nothing against any of you guys. I consider myself a Sportsman. Let's move on with Cast bullet talk.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

[thx997303]

Mine and other's Open carry here in Utah has done nothing but change the gun laws for the better. So it's safe to say I open carry for political reasons.

However, I began carrying to have the ability to protect my family. Not too long thereafter, I was injured to the point I can't defend myself without the aid of a weapon of some sort.

I guess I'm just afraid of my own shadow. Oh well, being called a coward doesn't bug me.

[82nd airborne]

my best friend is a one armed vet, healing from his injuries in san antonio. two weeks ago a guy thought he would knife the one armed guy because he is an easy target. guy with the knife is dead now due to a glock 27. Mr perry, if you want to call my buddy a wimp (whos been shot on 3 separate occasions) he would beat you senseless with his one arm, (i garuntee he could) youd need your gun then. he would then take it away from you and spank your panzie @$$ with it. If you think your so tough, why dont you try, just for insuating that he is a wimp, im tempted to do it for him...

[DCP]

Well Steven

You have give so much information about yourself that I know you tel#, address, your wife name it starts with a M

Now you live on a 4 lane rd with 2 trees between the sidewalk and street and a paper or mail box. Cute little Ranch

You tell people you have lots of Guns (more than most)
You tell people when your gone.

Isn't the Internet a great thing?

You are a danger to this SPORT.

Now coach
I cant find a thing about you being a coach except if you said it.

See if i can do this in less than 5 min. Wonder what a bad guy can do

So now we can move on


I have already Cast several hundred boolits this morning and will Cast some more when I get home. Seems like some of you guys travel from shooting forum to shooting forum discussing CCW and more time after time. Most with handles. I am who I say I am not hard to find at So Cal and Arizona shooting ranges. I carry no concealed weapon no need to, didn't say I don't carry a weapon just not concealed. Remember guys by having a CCW you are registered and a CCW can be revoked at any time. Nothing against any of you guys. I consider myself a Sportsman. Let's move on with Cast bullet talk.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

[chboats]

Interesting artical in the August Dillon Blue Press page 64 about CCW by Serena Wood. The jest of the artical is, why do you carry a spare tire in your car. In case you need it. Most drivers never do but it's there in case you do. Same applies to CCW.
Carl

[Frank]

Stephen Perry said
George S. Patton had it right fight the Russians while the Army was in Europe, he knew the Germans weren't the only bad guys in Europe. One infamous coward and his wife traveled to California recently and wanted to come loaded because he feared the illegals I told him if he gets caught carrying a loaded gun in his RV he would face felony charges. Told him that Texas where he is from has more illegals coming over everyday than California.

:drinks: Yeah, its too bad the Allies waited until 1944 before they would even invade the continent. They waited until the comfortable time when the Germans were beaten down. Then Patton could run around with his sidearm acting tough against the Soviets. But I guess compared to what we have today, Patton didn't do too bad.

[Storydude]

. Remember guys by having a CCW you are registered and a CCW can be revoked at any time. Nothing against any of you guys. .

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

Might want to read AZ regs now.......CCW is not registered anything in AZ.

As no permit/licensing is needed to CCW in AZ.

[Heavy lead]

OMG
If I hadn't of read this thread again, I would have thought I was dreaming it. This is just like arguing with my wife, except sometimes that ends up with something good in the end!

Obviously though this guy is much superior to me, I haven't witnessed this type of superior intellect since watching old reruns of Cheers and being dazzled by the brillance proclaimed by Cliff Clavin.
again Judas Priest

[lwknight]

We all know this old cliché' " Having a fire extinguisher in the house is a good thing even though we never plan to have a fire.
CCW actually started with Wyatt Erp in Tombstone AZ who did not like displaying his gun to his friends and fellow citizens.
He thought it more appropriate to just cover it up and not make a spectacle of himself.

[3006guns]

Everyone is entitled to an opinion. I may not agree with your opinion but I respect your right to have it and voice it.........and will do everything in my power to see to it that you can express that opinion freely.

I respect you Stephen for your side of a discussion. You stand up like a man and hold your ground......good. My only concern is that you must realize that MY opinion carries weight also, especially when it comes to a possible life and death situation protecting myself or my loved ones. I don't want to hurt or maim anyone. I gave up having a loud mouth years ago and have become a mature, considerate individual.......very level headed and appreciative of life. My wife, children and grandchildren are very precious to me and woe to the lunatic that tries to bring havoc into our lives.

If, however, a situation reaches "critical mass" I will respond with what force I deem necessary to stop the action........immediately. I realize fully the legal ramifications afterwards, but survival is first and foremost.

Whew! Now that that's over with.....back to casting.:bigsmyl2:

[wistlepig1]

WOW, I have read this thread from start Til now. I think Mr Perry is "baiting" this group and getting his pleasure from our responses. If he is a True Liberal from the coast, nothing we say will have any effect. Last word from me on this, no more "pleasure" from me![smilie=b:

[9.3X62AL]

Mr. Perry doesn't get it, but he has an absolute right not to do so. He has NO right to dictate how others conduct their lives, however--and insisting that I or someone else forfeit their God-given right to self-protection in the interest of some social expediency is preposterous.

THE MOST DIRECT BENEFICIARIES OF RESTRICTIVE CARRY LAWS ARE PREDATORY CRIMINALS AND THE ATTORNEYS THAT DEFEND THEM.

Steve, I grew up in and am a 5th generation resident of San Bernardino. How we could have such similar experiences in similar places--and have such profound and diametrically opposed viewpoints on the matter of tooling to preserve one's life--is amazing. You sound like an elitist from your remarks in this thread. I'm not sure what life events steered you to that supercilious viewpoint, but I feel sorry for you. Annoying and irritating, but sad too.

[Suo Gan]

If any of you have liberal neighbors, friends, or relatives and have sat down and had a discussion about guns it is very interesting. I mean it is infuriating at first sometimes, but just looking at it scientifically it is apparent that conservative and liberal brains are completely different. All of the liberals who are anti gun (some are pro gun) I have talked to all are frightened by guns and the fact that gun owners could go out at any time and kill people with them. They view all people as capable of temporarily losing their minds and do terrible things with guns. I really think it has to do with the fact that they view themselves as capable of losing their minds, therefore from this idiocentric point of view all others are capable of this too. Conservatives are rational and understand that guns are tools to be used as protection, food gathering, and for recreation. We never want to kill an innocent human or use our guns for evil.

I don't think Perry is a liberal at all. I think Perry is concerned with losing the rights of gun ownership, something he highly values. I have followed some of Perry's work with the shooting sports and he is a dedicated man. I do think he is a valuable member of the fraternity because he has brought so many to the sport, something most of us do not do because of our own reasons (conservatives tend to use a lot of excuses but it all amounts to laziness). What I do think is that Perry has a flawed argument concerning CCW rights. He is basically saying that gun rights are in jeopardy partly because public perception of gun owners is Billy ******. I cannot argue that point. But he is missing the boat when it is concerning the real legitimate use of CCW rights, as to personal protection. Perry readily admits that certain store owners might need to carry legally. So I think we can assume that he gets the point of personal protection being multiplied with a concealed handgun. There is too much ambiguity with Perry's argument here, how do you define a proper store owner? One that carries $3000 cash or $30000 cash? One that has no employees or 100 employees? Should not all citizens who have not broken the law and show no signs of mental instability deserve the chance to protect themselves and their loved ones as described in the Second Amendment? Putting a socioeconomic value on one person vs. another is unconstitutional and in my opinion goes against the will or God and the tradition of the nation in which we live.

We all need to make tough choices. We all need to understand that we as gun owners are under a microscope. If we mess up, we will get burned at the stake and our brothers in arms will suffer right along with us. That is the part of Perry's argument that I hope we all take to heart!

As an aside, have you noticed how the government media complex lumps all gun owners together while they tell us that Islam is the religion of peace and love and 99.9% of Muslims are good people?

[wills]

What about a 60+ year old colored lady who leaves home before light in the morning and has to stand at a bus stop in a dangerous part of town so she can get to her job as a domestic. Then she has to catch the bus home and get there after dark. And the liberals who are supposed to love her so much condemn the kind of handgun she can afford as a Saturday Night Special, because it doesn’t have adjustable sights, and the Bus system forbids her to carry it on the bus (assuming they catch her) because it has its own police force (doing everything other than guarding the bus stop). Is she supposed to be a victim because she is not a business owner?

[wills]

As an aside, have you noticed how the government media complex lumps all gun owners together while they tell us that Islam is the religion of peace and love and 99.9% of Muslims are good people?


http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

If that is true, then that only leaves about fifteen million of them to worry about.

[looseprojectile]

I am seventy one and I live in a very red neck kind of rural area. I know at least six of my friends and relatives carry a handgun. I do also. None of these people have ever been mugged or raped or robbed. Pretty good statistics huh?
I read somewhere that if you find yourself in a fair fight your tactics suck.
I subscribe to that kind of mindset. Always have a plan.
And the crime rate here is way lower than most of southern California so why am I worried? I carry so that I don't have to be afraid.
We do have several hundred dopers loose on the streets because it is a disease and not a criminal offense. I'd say that ninety percent of crime in my county is perpetrated by druggies. Mr Perry must feel safe since Californians can't have any evil black assault guns.
I don't trust anyone.

Life is good

[MtGun44]

I have to laugh at Mr. Perry. What a bozo. He has a full right to be a bozo, but he is
NOT entitled to tell me that I cannot carry. The only CCW people he knows are apparently also
chuckleheads because they are bragging about it. A pistol is a safety tool like a seat
belt, not something to make you into a bigshot braggart. I sincerely hope to never need
to use a gun in self defense, but I have the skills and mindset to do it if it becomes
necessary. Also, I'm getting too old to get into fights.

I expect that one day Mr. Perry is going to get a lesson in reality like several martial
artist expert friends of mine have gotten. One guy was THE baddest full contact karate
and whatever fighter in the whole city, reputation in real hard fights was as the toughest
guy there was in a decade. Eventually even HE figured it out and nowdays he carrys a
gun rather than a "I can whip your butt" attitude. The other was and is a really gifted
athelete with extremely quick moves. He had a thumb nearly ripped off in a brief street
fight while he was doing his black belt and expert wrestler moves. Figured it out after
the surgery, too.

What an amazing disconnect from reality some people have.

[MT Gianni]

I respect Mr Perry's right to an opinion and believe that CCW isn't for everyone, I see braggarts who have not had the training claiming they are law and justice on their property. I see people I know put back at least a 6 pack or more every night bragging about carrying and I know they are poor shots @ anything over 15 yards with a a handgun. I suspect these are some of the people he refers to. Working at a gun shop exposes you to more fools than you can imagine. They are the ones that have a 7mm and don't know if it is 7x57, 7mm express ,7mm Short Mag or 7mm Rem mag but you should know cause they bought shells here a year or two ago.
I respect all in their legal right to carry but believe some training should be repeated for some and that some may never get it. Just as you call the guy that graduated last in his medical class Doctor, training will not stick with some.

[dualsport]

Sounds like some of you guys aren't familiar with Mr. P. It's what he does, no explaining it, futile to try to make sense of it or have a coherent discussion. This is a documented historical fact. Let him slide, he'll be nice again, he does know a lot about the BR game, just has these rare outbursts. Adds a little spice to the forum. dualsport/ tturner53 at CBA

[BD]

Mr. Perry has a right to his opinions and he seems sincere in them. He's also serving an important role by validating our stereotypes of both wrestling coaches and gun shop employees. It's a tough job, but somebody has to do it.

Life is like a box of marbles that tilts back and forth, and is shaken up hard from time to time. Most of those marbles are white marbles, just trying to go about their affairs as best they can, following some sort of thought out path with some form of moral guideline along the way. But, there is a sprinkling of black marbles in the box as well. The black marbles are without any moral compass, after whatever they can get as the situation allows, and willing to do anything they think they can get away with. Nothing is beyond them. Only luck determines whether you bump into one of the black marbles along your way, and luck will play a large part in the outcome of that encounter. The other determinate is your own preparedness.

I've had the misfortune to bump into more than one black marble in my life, and the way things work in our world it's possible that I could bump into one of the same ones again. More importantly these encounters taught me that such totally random interactions can and do occur, and no amount of planning can prevent them.

Mr. Perry has apparently been luckier than I to date. I certainly hope that his luck continues. In the meantime I will continue to live my life with the preparations that my own experience has lead me to think necessary.

BD

[John 242]

Rights... who needs them?
Ever wish you could shut up those idiots from the Violence Policy Center?
How about those Democrats? Ever wish we could ban them from the air waves? Maybe shut down MSNBC?
Yeah, those silly constitution rights sure do get in the way don’t they?
Like that silly second amendment... what does it say again? Something about target shooting and bird hunting wasn’t it?
Doesn’t the second amendment go something like, “the right of the people to keep and bear arms is subject to someone else’s determination as to whether you really have a need or are properly trained, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed unless you really don’t need one or fail to meet some arbitrary standard set forth by your state or local government. “

[John 242]

It doesn't matter if today is the first day I've ever picked up a gun. It doesn't matter if I know a .45 auto from Colt 45 malt liquor. It doesn’t matter if I’m a mall ninja or some want-a-be cowboy. Maybe I’m a looser living in a single-wide down at the trailer park or maybe I’m a 80 year old woman that can’t load my own gun; It doesn’t matter. What matters is that I have a right to defend myself. As a citizen of this country I am entitled to “bear arms”, unless I forfeit those rights by becoming a felon.

Nobody likes to listen to some gunshop commando talk stupid about self-defense. We’ve all heard the he-man stories about killing bad guys.
We’ve also seen those same guys at the range and they can’t hit a stationary target at 7 yards. We wonder what would go down if ‘hero’ actually had to use his gun on a real bad guy. Well, whether he is a nitwit or not, he too is entitled to bear arms.

Yeah, I’m just rambling here… not really talking to anyone in particular.
Just my thoughts.
Take care all,
John

[Crash_Corrigan]

I retired from the NYCPD in '84 and put away my .38's until I moved to Vermont. I ended up living in a remote and lightly populated area where contact with various forms of wildlife was common. I started to carry my .38 again for protection against such wildlife as rabies was around and there were many skunks and racoons and such about. There were also feral coydogs and mountain lions and an few bears.

I did little shooting but a lot of carrying. In '89 I moved out West to NM and kept a gun at home and one in the car but I did not carry one. Later I got back into uniform and worked for a small police department and carried a gun 24/7. Then I gave that up and drove a cab at night in Albquerque for two years. I carried two guns for that gig.

All this time since retirement (age 41) I was in decent shape and could move and protect myself. Fast forward to '95. Now I am 52 and overweight and I could last maybe 30 seconds in a brawl. It was time to get my CCW. I did. I never had to pull the gun nor use since, but I have it just in case.

One time while walking with my wife and two dogs late at night in a Canyon Park in the city of Las Vegas we became aware that we were being stalked by a wolf. Yes a wolf. In Las Vegas. He was probably looking at my two dogs as dinner and we was not hunting us, but he was hunting the dogs.

We moved out into an open area so the wolf could not get close to us without us being aware of it. He approached to within 150 feet and at this point I handed off the leashes to my wife and told her to get behind me with the dogs under control. By this time the silly dogs knew that they were on the dinner menu and they were glad to get behind me. I dropped to my right knee and drew my Smith 586 6" tubed .357 from the hip holster and drew a bead on Mr. Wolf. He approached a mite closer. At this point I drew back the hammer with my left thumb and took a beak on the ground a few feet in front of him. I did not want to kill him yet but I would have liked to scare him off.

At the sound of the click of the hammer being set he perked up his ears and turned around and ran off. No harm no foul.

Now I am 67 and I suffer a couple of maladies which have rendered me pretty much out of the game. For me in this state of health a brawl is out of the question. A ten year old could wipe the floor with me . I can walk a couple hundred of feet and then I need a rest. I have a variety of breathing and circulation problems which make me a very likely target of one of the black marbles spoken about in a previous posting.

I live in a very bad neighborhood with illegal immigrants all around me who do not speak english. My gun is my comfort and gives me the warm fuzzy feeling of being safe when I have it with me.

Where does Mr. Perry get the right to tell me if I am or am not qualified to obtain a CCW to protect myself?

I am happy that he is so full of himself and so healthy and vigorous that he feels no need for a CCW or a loaded gun.

However there are others in this world who cannot enjoy his measue of health and self confidence who really need a CCW to protect their lives.

As for myself I believe that everyone should be entitled to have a CCW if they have no felonies, addictions to alcohol/drugs and such. I further believe that more people should carry guns and if most everybody did how much more polite would society be?

[9.3X62AL]

What Crash said. Well-presented, LT.

[lwknight]

Mr. Corrigan , you are the man.
Texas law is kinda strange in regard to weapons. Since the legislature actually had 2 congressional sessions to make clear to the overzealous prosecuters that it is in fact legal to carry a handgun in your vehicle and that there is nothing that can do about it , it is less necesary to have a CCW.
At least we have some choice about where we get out of the car but no choice where to break down. There are streches of highway out here that you might not see another car for hours. Any predator could be hunting these roads.
For people living in the city , well they have no choice where they have to walk and CCW if a real need for many.
Texas cities like DAllas and Houston have the same scourge as any other US cities.

Heard from the mouths of numerous jailbirds by one of my own jailbird friends, that many muggers fear the armed citizen more than the police. They believe that police are trained to arrest and not shoot and a scared would be victom will just shoot the hell out of them without asking questions.

I think thats how it should be.
Someday Perry will get old and lose his powerful wrestling skills and then he will change his mind when he realizes that he cannot defend himself or his family.

[EOD3]

Well said Crash!

I haven't heard a Perry size bucket of hogwash since I tried to read one of the later Rug Warrior books. Cows do it too but you rarely hear about it. :!:

[wistlepig1]

What Crash said! L.E. background and now health problems, were I to couldn't do much to defend myself or wife of 40+ plus years, but and can still handle a Colt 45acp. CCW is the answer and no one has the right to tell me that I can't have one!

[PatMarlin]

462

WE cant have a CCW carry in IL [smilie=b:



Oh- and I thought evil California was the hell mouth of the country ..:mrgreen: Our county here in CA encourages CCW's.

Perry-

Lordy your aura is a bit scary... :mrgreen:
and I think maybe a 215 card carry would be more appropriate. Carrying is for a rational thinking and stable state of minded person.

Look at all the stories in the NRA magazines of lives saved by producing a firearm and ending it. No doubt it's the end of the line last resort, and if you draw down on someone, you better be prepared to fire.

It ended a threat to my wife and I at our home one day. Could I have taken the guy I drew on?... possibly. But that would have been a fool's gamble.

[yarro]

Mr. Perry has never been robbed by an armed assaliant. I have. Like Mr Perry asserts, I got myself into the situation like all people who are assaulted, by walking out of a pizza place in a busy shopping center in broad daylight. I have been carrying ever since. I have a friend who carries because someone, now doing life without parrole, shot his brother in the head with a .357 magnum after he handed over his wallet because there wasn't enough money in it. The guy had gone to the store to pick up diapers for his kid.

Three times I have used my gun to de-escalate a situation where if I had not been armed, I would have gotten robbed at the very least and assaulted and killed at the worst. Some of us have had to live in very bad neighboorhoods and work nights to make a living while trying to better our lives. Places were people get killed just because the other guy felt like it. Try living in a neighborhood where people get regularly assaulted, robbed, and occasionally killed and see if you would like to walk around unarmed. The bad guys do and they ussually come in two and threes with no compunction about killing you if they feel like it. Not fun to come home and find that you have to use the other entrance to the apartment building because they moved the body but haven't finished up with the crime scene yet. I have had to live that.

Contrary to what he thinks. Most CCW folks never want to have to use their gun on someone else. CCW holders also have a lower rate of crime commision than the general populace. I all I have to say is move to the U.K. and enjoy.

-yarro

[waksupi]

I recall many years back, when I was in top condition, by the time I was halfway through a three minute round in boxing, I was definitely feeling fatigue. On the street with more than one opponent, most would stand to receive a butt kicking.
If you opt for hand to hand combat, carry a referee with you. He can call time out for you.

[lwknight]

Another point that has not been brought up yet is : Who in their right mind would want to get physical with some nasty disease infected drug abusing skank?

[PatMarlin]

Another point that has not been brought up yet is : Who in their right mind would want to get physical with some nasty disease infected drug abusing skank?

No kiddin'. A lot of gifts that keep on giving like AIDS, Hepatitis, blood poisoning to name a few come to mind. Loosing teeth and breaking a nose is fun too.


Ha- I remember getting in a fight in JR high back in the early 70's. It was "White Kick **** Day", one of the fun little racial diversity events they had in my neighborhood back in those days.

I was surrounded by several black kids at the bike rack, trying to get my bike during the festivities and I hit the first kid that came at me in the mouth. His tooth broke off in my knuckle. It diffused the situation enough for me to get out of there, but later I was starting to feel sic and when my dad found out and saw the red streak running up my arm he rushed me to the hospital.

[jtownguy]

Mr. Perry,

You have obviously never spent any graveyard shifts in a patrol car, where you see how evil man can be to his fellow man. Believe it or not, there are people in this world who get pure enjoyment out of inflicting suffering on their fellow human beings. They don't need a reason, other than you're in their sights when they're of a mind to spill blood. I've dealt with those people and I've looked pure evil in the eye many times. It's chilling to deal with persons who have nothing but contempt for other humans and don't need a reason to kill or maim, and then laugh about it when they're done. I've been shot at several times "on the job", and I never liked it, but they were all bad people, doing bad things. As the younger generation says, "you sir, don't have a clue".

I've seen boxers, wrestlers, martial arts experts and street fighters cut to ribbons, or shot, on the mean streets. If you think your wrestling skills are going to protect you from someone who is proficient with a knife, or armed with a firearm, you are very sadly mistaken, sir.

I've also seen lives saved by the presence of a firearm. In some cases it was only displayed, but in others it had to be actually used. As the gun ban crowd is so fond of saying, "if only one life is saved, it's worth it". I say that if one life is saved by the presence of a firearm, then it's worth it.

I'm also an RSO, NRA Rifle Instructor, Match Director and Endowment member of the NRA. I'm also a graduate of the FBI Firearms Instructor Course at Quantico, VA. I believe in the right of law abiding citizens to legally carry firearms. I do think instruction is necessary, and I teach in the Handgun Safety Classes our state requires. And while it has no bearing on the issue at hand, I'm also a former Marine Sergeant.

I'm now getting too old to fight, especially with someone half my age, so I carry a firearm every day when I'm away from home. My hope is that I'll never have to use it, but if it becomes necessary, I have the skills and mindset required for it's proper use. My carry is covered under HR-218, the Peace Officer Safety Act of 2004, so I can carry nationwide, which I do. I hope that someday every law abiding citizen will be able to also carry nationwide.

Hope this helps.

Fred

I agree with you Fred 100% and I think I am from the same County as you and we probably know each other very well. I was on the same Sheriffs dept for 5 years.

But one of the things that has always worried me and I am not sure if it is true and that is, I seemed to have heard so many times where law enforcement officers stated they were against people carrying a guy with a CCW?

Do you think this is a general attitude among your fellow law enforcement officers?

[ReloaderFred]

jtownguy,

We'll have to pursue this in a PM as to the dept. we both worked for.

As for the general opinion that Law Enforcement officers were against civilian CCW, I would have to say it depends on the officer, since we're all individuals, just like the rest of the population. Some felt this way and some didn't. I would think most didn't, but maybe it was just the group I was closest with that felt there was no problem with CCW. I know here in Oregon, where I retired to, most officers are in favor of civilian CCW, since there are so few officers in ratio to the general population and they know they can't be there in time for most hot calls.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[82nd airborne]

Mr. Perry, I have been punched by many people that can probably hit harder than you, (unless you were on a recon team for a number of years, then picked up a ufc contract too), this didnt stop me in my tracks, and i still had the clarity of mind to know what joints to manipulate. I have also been hit by a 150gr chunk of hot metal going a couple thousand feet per second. This on the other hand, did put me down. But then again your probably tough, unlike me, who does not enjoy a good thrashing, even when i deserve it. I noticed you quit explaining. Have you changed your mind about our lowly peasant view, or are you just too good to respond?

[9.3X62AL]

This here retired lawman thinks that Robert Heinlein said it best--"An armed society is a polite society." Most of my LEO friends share that view.

The "problem" isn't citizens with guns--the problem is thugs being turned loose by a criminal justice system that runs itself like a bass fishery--catch & release, with substantial penalties for deaths sustained by the quarry. Why is this pretzel logic tolerated? Why are the lives of predators valued more highly than the lives of taxpayers and productive citizens? Because for the criminal justice system--particularly criminal defense attorneys--predators form the revenue stream. Victims don't matter, because they don't feed lawyers. Criminals do. Legislatures are composed primarily of lawyers, so legal benefits accrue to predators instead of to productive citizens that pay the bills.

This is sick, wrong, and twisted. Like much in our government. The folks paying the bills need to take back control of this country, now more than ever.

[whisler]

Very well said.

[thx997303]

This here retired lawman thinks that Robert Heinlein said it best--"An armed society is a polite society." Most of my LEO friends share that view.

The "problem" isn't citizens with guns--the problem is thugs being turned loose by a criminal justice system that runs itself like a bass fishery--catch & release, with substantial penalties for deaths sustained by the quarry. Why is this pretzel logic tolerated? Why are the lives of predators valued more highly than the lives of taxpayers and productive citizens? Because for the criminal justice system--particularly criminal defense attorneys--predators form the revenue stream. Victims don't matter, because they don't feed lawyers. Criminals do. Legislatures are composed primarily of lawyers, so legal benefits accrue to predators instead of to productive citizens that pay the bills.

This is sick, wrong, and twisted. Like much in our government. The folks paying the bills need to take back control of this country, now more than ever.

Isn't the above an example of someone's Iron law of Beuracracy?

[dualsport]

Any of you guys in the Santa Barbara area? I heard about a guy who intervened to help a couple who were being harrassed by a group of 10 young Mexicans recently, the couple took off and the good samaritan got a week in the hospital. I'm sure they assumed he was unarmed. That said, I am talking about criminal behavior, not condeming the Hispanic population of SB who are generally well behaved. I wonder if under the circumstances if he had a CCW and used it what would have been the outcome? Perhaps no one would have been hurt, most of all the good samaritan. What if he had been carrying 'open'? The punks would have hauled ass! In that town he'd probably get jail time for brandishing or something bs like that.

[wistlepig1]

In that town he'd probably get jail time for brandishing or something bs like that.

I am sure he would have and the punks would be call "mis-guided youths" by the liberal news outlets, with their call for more gun control. IMHO