No lube 35 whelen loads

[damron g]

I just shot no lube in a 35 Whelen at 1900fps and results were pretty good.Alloy was straight WW and a GC was used.The bullet was a 200 ish SAECO RNFP and the powder was a a surplus powder marketed as 4759 "clone" (28g)

Groups shot at 50 yards.i didn't go to 100 as i was just fooling around with a new barreled rifle and was working up load data for the surplus powder.


Shown on one target are a 5 shot and a 10 shot group at 50 yards with the SAECO sans lube with Hornady GC.(point of impact different as i held to different corners of the squares)Next one shows six "stringey"shots with a plain base 200g Lyman 35875 @ 1900 fps that leaded very badly.The group to the right is the SAECO load again right after that group.The no lube GC load scraped out and cleaned the bore clean.Total shots fired without lube was about 35.Barrel was silver and carbon fouled but lubed plain base bullets at 1250 went right back where they should have.

No theories just thought i'd post results.

George

[357maximum]

Suggestion- load up 25 more...step back to 100 and put them all into one group........then post that group. It will clear a few things up for some of us.

[damron g]

Suggestion- load up 25 more...step back to 100 and put them all into one group........then post that group.

Ran out of bullets or i would have.I have shot plain base 30's with no lube into 1" at 100 yards @ 1200fps,its the consecutive small groups that seem to be the problem with no lube.I've never run them this fast sans lube before and had anything close to accuracy,that's why i was at 50 figuring I'd need all the paper i could get to find the holes.i seriously doubt it would shoot much better than 2" at 100 but the point was the bore condition anyway.

"It will clear a few things up for some of us."

What do you need cleared up? I want other people to give it a shot and see their results ,we may learn something.

pic is of the muzzle after the lubed plain base @ 1900 that leaded the bore.Forgot an "after" picture,but the silver streaks were gone.


George

[damron g]

Suggestion- load up 25 more...step back to 100 and put them all into one group........then post that group. It will clear a few things up for some of us.

Are you thinking I'm bragging and challenging me ? <LOL> i hadn't read it that was at first.

now I'll shoot them at 200 !! kidding,i dont even own the mold.I'll re shoot with the RCBS 200 FN this week before work.


George

[357maximum]

I just want to see if your 20+ shot 100yd group would come out looking like a ladder test or not is all.


Nothing sinister at play just curiosity is all.

[damron g]

I just want to see if your 20+ shot 100yd group would come out looking like a ladder test or not is all.


might just do that.The Sd's were pretty poor at about 25-30 but i was using pistol primers and the surplus 4759 "clone" that had a bit of 1680 accidentally mixed in.(had to use it up somewhere!)
Why do you think it would look like a ladder test? When my no lube stuff goes haywire it just opens up,no real stringing ."USUALLY" no lube with GC holdS up for 20 or so shots at 100 with close to normal accuracy if velocity isn't much over 1400.I was all ready to shoot a CBA military match with the 308403 without lube but chickened out when it was warmer weather than usual.I'll shoot my next CBA military match without lube.I shot the CBA Military Nationals with plain base bullets this year so why not omit the lube!. I had odd fouling issues but managed to win the 5 shot agg. at 200 in pretty nasty wind. Alot of luck there !

George

[357maximum]

I have played with alot of different lubes and the results almost always had a vertical aspect to them..............so MY THEORY was that it would have a lot of vertical change over the course of firing them nekkid rounds.


BTW.......If a feller took your sig line and added it to the second half of mine....the results could be intersting eh?

[damron g]

I have played with alot of different lubes and the results almost always had a vertical aspect to them..............so MY THEORY was that it would have a lot of vertical change over the course of firing them nekkid rounds.


You could be onto something as no lube groups usually lack vertical.

Only time i saw a huge difference with lube was shooting my 30 BR at 2100 at 200 yards with the SAECO RG4 and RCBS pistol(green) lube.it was shooting "hollow" 10 shot groups of about 3-1/2" fully lubed.On a suggestion i scraped out the lube leaving only the GC shank lubed.The next two 10 shot groups were 2" and 2.25".I find lube amounts more critical than type for the most part.I use as little as possible,even on Loverin types that are "supposed" to have them all filled up

"BTW.......If a feller took your sig line and added it to the second half of mine....the results could be intersting eh?"

funny

George

[Bass Ackward]

I think this is a great thread if people read it.

Years ago, machinists used to have a friction reducing (lubricating) product called "White Lead".

Lead is a lubricant all by itself. And what this says to me is not all leading is bad.

[MtGun44]

Very interesting.

I guess the GC scraper can clean up, just a question of if the lead will hold together.

Totally new concept to me.

Bill

[Echo]

EYE opener, cousin.

(I have Damrons in my background)

[damron g]

EYE opener, cousin.

(I have Damrons in my background)

i know we had a few in AZ area.
Not many of us though.

george

[357maximum]

I think this is a great thread if people read it.

Years ago, machinists used to have a friction reducing (lubricating) product called "White Lead".

Lead is a lubricant all by itself. And what this says to me is not all leading is bad.

I have always got my best high velocity rifle groups right on the hinge of leading. Now maybe if a feller could find a way to keep a consistantly "leaded" bore he could maintain good groups just as a NORMAL person does by keeping a consistantly "seasoned" bore. Damron's work may have merit. I think all the mebers here need to go try this in their toys and report back.




Anyone know what Choreboy's stock trading initials are? .......just in case:twisted:

[felix]

It's all about viscosity for the condition. Build-up (fouling of any kind) is the problem as we ALL know. Letting the lube remain in a barrel for even a small amount of time encourages the build-up, so it would benefit to have ammo loaded with lower and lower viscosity as the outing continues. Same load, different lube, when stroking between groups is out of the question for the type of outing. ... felix

[damron g]

I have always got my best high velocity rifle groups right on the hinge of leading. /:

In 22 cast loads this seems to be the case for me.

George

[felix]

Absolutely. ... felix

[357maximum]

It's all about viscosity for the condition. Build-up (fouling of any kind) is the problem as we ALL know. Letting the lube remain in a barrel for even a small amount of time encourages the build-up, so it would benefit to have ammo loaded with lower and lower viscosity as the outing continues. Same load, different lube, when stroking between groups is out of the question for the type of outing. ... felix


Soft microwax based lubes help negate that tendency for me but soft microbased lubes are not constant pressure(star/saeco) luber friendly for the same reasons they help eiminate cold bore syndrome and long shooting session syndrome.

BaBore calls my pride and glory SuperSoft version of MML "goose chit", but I like it in my guns , on paper, in the cold, and my in "vintage" lyman 45 sizers. Apparently is is a nightmare in his saeco sizers though.


Jojoba oil as well as pure orange oil used in stiffer beeswax based mixes can help do the same thing with fouling build up. I think they help the lube shear instead of spread. I am not sure what you would call it on the molecular level, but it does work in the right balanced beeswax based lube. I just happen to prefer the softer micro/lithium lubes as they do the same thing with less exotic oil cost.

[357maximum]

In 22 cast loads this seems to be the case for me.

George

22's are an abarition of an anomoly of an enigma wrapped in a riddle wrapped in a rhyme for me as I get my very best groups with J-word speed 22CF cast with a light coat of LLA and a dusting of mica.............despite all my best lube lab efforts.:oops: VERY VERY frustrating to a lube cook, but it is what it is so I shoot what Prof. Gun says he likes.

[felix]

Amen! Mica works in keeping the spent/burnt/**** in check, which is the name of the game. High antimony, low tin, provides a washing effect as well. Both will keep the bore in excellent condition for condoms until the lands get too smooth. Condoms do not wear the lands nearly as fast, but then again, the high pressure at the leade typically used with condoms does 10 times the damage that mica or antimony can do based upon the mechanical wear offered by them. If a barrel is rated 1000 rounds at design pressure, that is what it will be no matter what the projectile flavor. Heat from pressure is always the culprit. ... felix

[damron g]

Did another no lube experiment with the 35 Whelen.The first gun was a custom 26" heavy barrel 35 Whelen and an obsolete SAECO bullet and unavailable surplus powder.This time i did a re shot with more common stuff. Gun was an unmodified factory Remington 700 Classic,RCBS 200 FN bullet and 20.0 of 2400.Shooting was done at 100 yards in 85 deg temperature.Original was at 50 yards in 60 deg temps.
Bullets were harder at 20BHN and GC'd as before.Velocity was slower at 1620 fps.

This time the gun was noticeably carbon and very very lightly leaded but grouped decent unless the barrel got hot then it went vertical.After group #3 i could barely hold the barrel.I let it cool down ran a lose patch to check it out) and then fired the last two groups(6 shots in last group).After that the barrel was cruddy and after firing 10 lubed plain base loads @ 1250 it looked decent.One patch run down the tube was a bit tight,but no leading.

groups #1 and #5 were the smallest @ 1.65"When i shoot this bullet with lube it is only about 1/2" smaller groups.

Only thing i may have learned is the barrel cant be too hot with the no lube business with this combo.

George

[qajaq59]

Lube is cheap enough so why are you experimenting with getting rid of it? Obvously you must have something in mind.

[damron g]

Lube is cheap enough so why are you experimenting with getting rid of it?

Nothing in mind,just trying to see what i can get away with.

George

[MT Gianni]

Lube is cheap enough so why are you experimenting with getting rid of it? Obvously you must have something in mind.

Without experimenting we are still chasing mastadons with rocks.

[qajaq59]

Without experimenting we are still chasing mastadons with rocks. Oh believe me, I'm not knocking it. Everything we do in loading was an experiment at one time. But I was curious what goal he had in mind for it.

[NSP64]

I took my new Savage Edge in .308 out last weekend and shot lee 180gr .313 boolits sized to .308 Lubed with LLA/moly blend over 25 gr of H4895 (no GC 2000 fps est.) and got no leading.

[damron g]

Oh believe me, I'm not knocking it. Everything we do in loading was an experiment at one time. But I was curious what goal he had in mind for it.

Really i am trying to see what lube does and doesn't do for accuracy.Only way to do this is omit lube and see what happens.You can get away with a bunch of stuff if you just try it and stay away from the old "rules" I also shoot intentionally ugly bullets(marked) and most of the time they land in the group.So the "bad bullet" we often blame may not be the bullet at all.


george

[Marlin Junky]

Your Whelen has a 16" twist, yes? I'd be interested to learn how many grooves it has and its bore/groove diameter?

MJ

[damron g]

Your Whelen has a 16" twist, yes? I'd be interested to learn how many grooves it has and its bore/groove diameter?

MJ

it is 1-16 twist, 6 groove and .350 bore,.357ish groove.

George