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View Full Version : LEE .338 220....some success today.



BruceB
08-20-2006, 12:13 AM
There are a number of .338 moulds taking up space in my shop. The oldest is surely my 2-cavity LEE 220, which I've had since we lived in the Canadian far north...over ten years ago, therefore.

It's been frustrating here, the last couple of years, when I had time to spend with the .338 rifle(s). My Savage 116, bought last year in almost-new condition, can not STAND even the very words, "cast bullet". I have completely given up on this rifle with cast projectiles. It does 1/2 minute with Barnes TSX bulllets, though! The Winchester is a 26" M70 Super Grade of about 1995 vintage, and it has given me enough "hints" that I keep after it.

So, I now have an LBT 4-cavity 234-grain .338 mould, and an NEI one-banger for a 300+ bullet, and two of the old Lyman .33 designs (338320 and 33889, 200 and 250 grains respectively)....and my old low-rent, el-cheapo LEE 220. All of these are gas-checked designs.

Frustration had really set in a few days back, when the NEI 304-grain RN was SO bad that, when I tried to adjust the scope DOWN rather radically for some test loads, the POIs went UP, so badly that I seriously thought that the scope was mammaries-ascendant. Until I checked it this morning with the boresighter and found that "up" still does mean "up", and "down" likewise means "down", I figured I'd have to change the scope just for peace of mind. At fifty yards, I couldn't keep those big boolits on the target paper, 11"x16". Scope is a 6-24X Tasco Varminter.

Back to basics! Earlier results showed the LEE boolit offering some fairly-interesting performance. I had NOT yet tried it with XMP5744, and only a few loads with 2400. I loaded up a set of 2400 loads from 20.0 to 24.0 grains with one-grain increments, and another series with 5744, from 22.0 to 30.0 in two-grain increments. All loads used a dacron filler tuft, and of course, the LEE bullet in water-dropped WW, Hornady gascheck, .338" sizing and some of Lar45's lube.

2400 was interesting, and the best of the 10-round groups gave me 8 in less than one inch from 50 yards, with two low uncalled flyers in virtually the same hole.

5744 was clearly the choice for this rifle today. At the 24.0 and 26.0 level, both groups were 0.9" for ten rounds. The 28.0 group loosened up quite a bit, and the 30.0 was worse. Speed for the 24.0 load was right at 1750 fps with very low extreme spread and standard deviation, and it seems that this may be worth following-up. Plans now call for smaller increments, such as 23.0, 23.5, 24.0, 24.5, etc, etc.

Unlike the extensive tipping encountered with some other designs, only one impact out of 120 rounds fired today showed any sign of instability...and it was the sole flyer from a 2400 group. The nose of the LEE bullet only mikes .3285", which is a good bit less than some of the others on hand...but they tip and yaw, and the LEE doesn't!

Hmmm...I may have some .338 moulds for sale soon....

GooseGestapo
08-20-2006, 12:42 AM
I noticed that you mentioned "Cast Boolits" and Barnes-X or TripleShok in the same posting.

Thats ASKING for "tipped" bullets !!!!

I've found almost universally that my centerfire rifles require major, detailed cleaning and then bore conditioning to shoot well with cast bullets, after having been fired with jacketed bullets.

A good example are two of my .30 cals, a .30wcf, and a .30/06.

When I first started playing with cast bullets back in college in the '70's, I kept my rifle barrel really clean, as I had little money to buy bullets/components.

I found my first efforts with cast bullets to be marvelous, with 15.0gr of Unique under the Lee .309-150FNGC shooting easy 5-shot 1" groups at 50yds. Little did I know how at the time how well these would have killed deer.

Years later, I was playing with some cast bullets in a Glenfield M30 with a microgroove barrel. After getting some dismall results, I shrug off the cast bulllets in a microgroove barrel.

Then after seeing some posters giving good results to the .35Rem with cast bullets and microgroove barrel, after a through cleaning to remove the copper fouling, I revisited the .30wcf.

After giving the barrel a very thorough cleaning with a copper solvent (ShootersChoice "Copper remover"), I followed this by shooting up some 3 dozen 122gr .311" RNGC's over 10.0gr of Unique to help "recondition" the bore. After they were gone, I recleaned the barrel and tried an oldie, but "goodie" of 28.0gr of IMR-3031 under the .309-150FNGC, which I still have.

My goodness !!!! With the scope attached, five shot groups went 1.5", which is better than with jacketed bullets!

My .30/06 will shoot the 155gr PtGC .311", over 25.0gr of #2400 like it's a benchrest rifle, after a similiar "de-copperization".

So, Clean that .338 "VERY WELL" after using those Barnes, and I think you'll see the accuracy you are looking for. Also, shoot something like 3-4 dozen light cast loads, to do what the .22rf shooters call "conditioning" the bore, reclean, and then try the cast loads again.

Those "tipped" bullets were trying to tell you something !!!!!
They are "tippsey" from that copper contamination in that barrel.

Most recently, last week I aquired a Marlin 1895G, which had notable copper streaking in the muzzle. After a 2hr cleaning, I fired about 25rds of "blackpowder" equivalent loads through it and then recleaned.

I followed with a "moderately" heavy but very accurate load of 30.0gr H4227 under the Lee .459-405grHB with SPG lubed and sized to .459".

It shoots 1.75" 5-shot groups at 100yds !!!

If I can get a box of 1,000 gas checks, I'll now invest in a Lee .338" mould for my .338/06.
I've been told that Hornady has recently discontinued many of the less popular sizes and .338" is one of them.

BruceB
08-20-2006, 01:02 AM
Yo, goose;

Fear not; I'm well aware of how necessary it is to remove any copper fouling from a bore before running cast boolits through it.

That Savage was squeaky-clean before any cast loads were fired. Once a rifle is devoid of copper in the bore, I generally rub some bullet lube on a cleaning patch and push it through the barrel a few times. This avoids any tendency for the first boolit to leave any leading on a high-friction naked barrel wall, and it seems to work pretty well.

The Winchester hasn't fired a jacketed bullet in four or five years, if then, and the bore is nicely-conditioned for cast loads. It probably hasn't been cleaned in that time. either. Once I pollute the bore of a rifle with condoms, I resign myself to an onerous cleaning job before it can be considered ready for cast boolits again. Right now, both my Garand and M1A are in that condition, and one of these days I HAVE to de-copper the rascals. Yuck.

TCLouis
08-20-2006, 06:58 AM
My Model 70 loves the Lee 220 RNGC BOOLIT pushed by 39.0 IMR 3031 (same for the old Hornady FP 33 Winchester bullet). Velocities in the mid 1800s as I remember it.

In an effort to gain a meplat to hunt with I have purchased two different flat point BOOLIT molds and have NOT found sucess with either. I set them aside and have not pursued results in several years. May be a good fall project to get something working with the FP molds for this years season (work is such an impediment to so many important things).

A fellow shooter used some of these to fire polish a rough spot in his Ruger SS barrel. The las ten went into less than an inch and this was using Turtle Wax Rubbing compound as lube and what ever load of Unique my Lee dipper would produce that seemed appropriate for LOW speed load. All that, and one never saw any smear of jacket in that area of the barrel again.

Doughty
08-20-2006, 10:55 AM
Bruce,

I have been reading about your trials with the .338 and it just perplexes me. Just for clarification:

1. Is the chambering the .338 Win Mag?

2. Have you slugged the barrel; and if so, what are the bore and groove?

3. Have you made a swaging of the neck/throat area: and if so what are the dimensions?

4. What diameter bullets have you tried?

5. What velocity are you trying for?

6. What will determine an acceptable level of accuracy for you?

7. What twist do your rifles have?

8. Have you tried oven tempering your alloy?

Sorry for so many questions. I'm sure you've gone over these before, but sometimes re-stating things will give a new idea. Seems a shame to let them contankerous sons of a gun (literally) get away with such rude behavior.

onceabull
08-20-2006, 02:39 PM
BruceB: .SURPRISE,you have PM re:338 moulds, I Hope...Onceabull [smilie=1:

Splatter
10-09-2011, 07:06 PM
Necro-bump!
Or is there a more recent thread that I missed (hoping for a boost up the learning curve for my new NOE 339 225Gr. RF (RD) mould.)

GooseGestapo
10-10-2011, 12:55 AM
WOW, Talk about deja vu;

Theres been a lot of "water under the bridge", and a lot of lead poured since I wrote that reply over 5yrs ago.

Since then, some things have changed. Some haven't.

1. My Glenfield M30 is till "flinging" those lead cast bullets accurately. About 3weeks ago, I got the "urge" and took it out after loading up a 2lb coffee can (plastic now) full of .30/30's (it's a Marlin, ya know...) with the 170gr Lee. Some were 7.5gr of Unique and only tumble lubed, and no gascheck or sizing, and others were 30.0gr of RL15 sized and gaschecked..

The Unique loads were a "hoot". Since around '08, the .30/30 has worn a reciever sight that it had worn off and on since I "liberated" that thing from a metro Atlanta pawn shop in '02. Having killed numerous deer and several pigs with it, I worked up the load mentioned in the earlier posting, with a change from IMR3031 and the 150gr FN (new one casts to 158gr) and switch to the 170 which casts to 175gr (excellent....). With the heavier bullets, it shoots to poi/poa with both at about 50yds with the "faster" RL15 load shooting about 2" higher (perfect). So much fun with the "aperture" removed creating a "ghost ring".
I shot up over 200rds plinking every left over beer can and clay pigeon on the range from 25-110+yds.
Too much fun....... It's now riding in the p/u doing duty riding "shotgun" as no shotgun could do.... (carriage gun?!)...... With the light unique load it's a "rook rifle". With the heavier loads, it's even something for bear! (at least in our corner of the world. We do have blackies in the mountains where I like to trout fish. And, bear season is in, in some of the areas I fish, at the same time..... hmmmm, how are you "supposed" to dispose of the fish guts......... think Yogi might come looking for a place at the dinner table....?)

2. Got a Marlin .338MX and a Lee .339" 220gr RN mould.

What a hoot! I bought the mould for the .338/06. What a wonderful bullet. If only it had a flat-nose meplat. From the .338/06 over 20.0-25.0gr of #2400, it's amazingly accurate. Recently, I had the barrel re-crowned (factory original Adams & Bennet ) redone with a 11deg target crown. Until this was done, it actually shot the cast bullets better than jacketed. I also snagged some Hornady 250gr Pointed Spts and worked up a load with IMR4350 in case I get to spend a summer working/bumming in Alaska. Won't happen with this rifle now, but..... The 220gr RN over 25.0gr of #2400 runs about 1,800fps but oddly enough, hits to same POI as the 250gr Jacketed....... Now I have two loads, one zero and both are game killers supreme.

Then enter the Marlin .338MX. I immediately after breaking the barrel in with ~50rds of factory and ~150rds of Jacketed reloads (worked up factory duplication and took two deer with them) I started with the cast bullets. I found that due to the similarity in case capacity ('06 is about 5-7% larger), the .338MX works with the same powder charges as the '06, however it prefers 24.0gr to the larger 25.0 of the '06. So, I now throw the same "lower" load for both. The '06 with the longer barrel (24" vs. 22" of the .338MX) gets slightly higher velocities. Accuracy is essentially the same with both 2-3moa at 100yds 5-shots). Won't win any "bench-rest" matches, but are minute of whitetail to practical range of bullets function.... (may not expand below 1400fps).... I've settled on a load of 41.0gr of RL15 for about 1,950fps. 42.0gr went over 2,050, but accuracy was worse than 5" at 100yds. Not good enough for me......Slight reduction in velocity made big difference in accuracy. 3 of first 5-rds "touched" at 100yds.... Group opened up to about 2", which is just almost as good as jacketed FTX loads.

I load these from aircooled w/w with a bit of 95/5% lead-free solder (Tin/Antimony) added to improve casting qualities. Bullets are cast "hot" with a light frosting. I then lube with SPG and size to .339" and add Hornady GasChecks. I use a flat-punch to place a small meplat on the tip when sizing so it's not as likely to set off a round in the tubluar magazine, and is more likelt to "epand" or I prefer to describe the action of the cast bullets, "rivet" on impact. Not a real mushrrom, but a flattened, shorted profile that penetrates better than a jacketed bullet. I got mould and gaschecks from MidSouthShootersSupply. They keep the moulds and gas checks in stock. MidwayUSA dosen't stock the .338" gaschecks, btw..... Go easy on "bumping" the nose, as if you flatten it too much, it "expands" the forward section of the bullet makeing for difficult or impossible chambering of loaded round. This might actually be helpful with a rifle with a very-long throat (as is my .338/06) or a "large" bore diameter....

I have in the last two weeks resighted the Marlin for the 220gr RL Lee bullet at 1,950fps. I'll get to see soon how they do on deer.....

Also got a RanchDog 200gr TL-GC 6-cavity mould for the .338. Cast similar to as above, and lubed with T/L, I've only gotten accuracy to about 1,600fps. The load of #2400 @ 24.0gr as above, and 40.0gr of RL15 (for ~1,925fps) won't all hit the target stand at 50yds. I need to do some more work with it. However, I don't have high hopes as it just dosen't seem capable of holding enough lube for this high of velocity.....even with the heavy coat of lube as RanchDog recommends. My best efforts have been with SPG smeared on an unsized bullet with gascheck slipped in place.... Like I said, still needs some attentive work....

Hope this helps you in your search/efforts.

bTW; neither of the .338's seem to "care" about having had jacketed bullets shot though them before shooting a cast bullets. But, they will "throw" the fist or two shots an inch or two before they "settle down" with the cast bullets, and will throw a "flyer" with a bullet lube fouled barrel from shooting cast bullets. Both prefer a "dry" barrel for first shot accuray with a jacketed bullet. More so than with a "dry" barrel and a cast bullets.....

quilbilly
10-10-2011, 03:12 PM
Hi Bruce,
My 338 is an old TCR. It likes both 5744 and Trail Boss (but only at 95% of full charge) with the Lee 220 and iron sights. Since I have several cans of TB that were gifts from friends, I am using that. I tried several loads with the TB from 75% to 100% and only the 95% worked well with only 20FPS difference between shots. FYI - a full 45-70 case is a 95% charge in the 338 with TB.