Further Testing of the NSW Trade Gun

[Maven]

I finally got my hands on enough flints so I could try to see what the gun likes. 2 more range sessions @ 25 yds.* told me the gun doesn't like felt over powder wads (3/16" x 5/8" lubed with Crisco & beeswax, 1 cup : 9 tbs.). These produced flyers, but will retest once all the other factors are ironed out. It also doesn't like the OP wad + felt wad + unpatched RB + OS wad, which I read about in one of Sam Fadala's books. I tried it 2X, but since both shots went wide of the target, target backer, and target frame, I won't be trying it again. As I now have both a .600" RB- and .595" RB mold, I've been trying both with .022" denim and .018" pillow tick patches, typically lubed with spit, but sometimes with Winchester Sutler's "Moose Milk" (no difference on the target between the 2 "lubes" as far as I can tell). Even with a stout cleaning rod/ramrod, the thicker patch was a beast to seat with the larger RB and no picnic with the smaller one either. The thicker patches, however, shot well enough with both RB's, but not better than the .018" ones (a pleasure to use with either RB). Indeed, both diameter RB's grouped pretty well (3 touching) @ 25 yds. with the thinner patch.** Where they hit the target was different though. Btw, following a suggestion from Taylor Sapergia on the Amer. Longrifles forum, I tried 85 grs. FFg instead of my original load of 70 grs. FFFg. Recoil was definitely less and maybe there was a slight increase in accuracy with FFg, but I hesitate to say so until I do some more testing.


*I've been using copies of the NMLRA Postal Match target for all tests.

**No blown patches at all. I could, and actually did occasionally reuse them with no change in performance.

[waksupi]

Sounds like you are making good progress!

[Maven]

Ric, The more I shoot it, the more I learn about its likes and dislikes. I'm hoping to find a powder (charge & granulation), RB, patch combination that will put 5 shots in the black of the NMLRA Postal match target. When (if?) I get there, I'll try the lubed felt- v. lubed cardboard OP wad to see what effect it has. Btw, even though the lock has a sitting fox on the sideplate, one of the inside flats has a prominent "Made in Italy" stamp on its surface.

[fishhawk]

in my 20ga smooth bore flinter a .595 rb with a .010 patch and 75 gr of FFg works the best for me. steve k

[northmn]

Just remember it is a smoothbore and has its limitations. They tend to be pretty accurate up close but really start spreading furhter out. Still they are a lot of fun and do not deserve to be sold short. I have a smooth rifle I hope to get shootable pretty soon in 20 bore. Interested in your experiences with the Turner mold. I bought one of those Dixie Gunworks molds years ago that has a handle like a scissors. You have to manually cut off the sprue. If I replace the &*&%%$ thing I may try the 595 Turner mold. Problem is it worked for me but 20 bore barrels can differ. European barrels such as yours are known to be a little tighter than ours in smooth bores. 2F tends to have less velocity variation in larger bores, I have chronographed enough to be convinced of that. If you need more omph, Swiss also gives a little more for the same granulation. A few black bear and deer have been shot with the Northwest repos in my neck of the woods with loads similar to what you are trying.

Northmn

[waksupi]

Btw, even though the lock has a sitting fox on the sideplate, one of the inside flats has a prominent "Made in Italy" stamp on its surface.


Well, it isn't a North Star then. All of the locks have always been made in the US.

[PatMarlin]

Pictures-Pictures!

[Maven]

northmn, I was given a .600" Dixie RB mold by a friend. After JB-Welding the locating pin (essentially a finishing nail) in place, I get a pretty good cast (very little flashing at the seam), but you're right trimming the sprues by hand isn't fun. Btw, the .595" Jeff Tanner "mould" arrived 8 days after ordering it and casts very well. It's right on the money too. Since the British pound is much weaker against the dollar than it was 2 yrs. ago, ($1.95 v. ~$1.25 today), his custom moulds are a steal: I paid $32 (delivered)for mine.

Ric, The gun is exactly like the one pictured on NSW's site. Here's some further info.: The left bbl. flat (right above the serpent side plate) reads, from muzzle -> breech, ".62cal. GBF" (no quotation marks on the bbl.). I'm a bit reluctant to try to knck the pins out to see what's under the wood though.

Pat, My camera is presently out of service (battery issues), but I'll eventually take some pics and post them.

[northmn]

Thank you I will ahve to check into Tanner's molds. Your weapon may be a Pedersoli as they do make one. Don't really know that much about this one, but some of their products seem to be good. They advertise a walnut stock which is very original (probably not American walnut or good English). Funny thing is that back then walnut was a utility wood relegated to muskets and other cheaper type arms.

Northmn

[waksupi]

Yep, North Star never marked the caliber on the barrels. More likely to see another sitting fox on the top flat.

[Maven]

Ric, I wrote to Davide Pedersoli & C customer service earlier today hoping they can tell me whether the gun is one of theirs. I suspect it will be quite some time before I get a reply if I get one at all.

[northmn]

Another thing is that Pedersoli makes theirs in 20 bore. I think after a bit North Star went to the 24 ga as that was really the most common. 20 bore is lighter and better for most of our uses anyway.

Northmn

[waksupi]

Another thing is that Pedersoli makes theirs in 20 bore. I think after a bit North Star went to the 24 ga as that was really the most common. 20 bore is lighter and better for most of our uses anyway.

Northmn

The 24 was always available as an option, but the majority sold have been 20 bores.

[northmn]

Many companies liek L&R mark the inside of the locks. Check to see if you have the DP logo somewhere like that. The 24 was the most common original trade gun bore, but as I say you are better off with a 20. Probably why Northstar sold more 20's.

DP

[Maven]

northmn, No logo that I can see on the inner surface of the lock plate. Also, the gun is definitely a hybrid of the NSW Indian- and English trade guns as pictured on their website, e.g., brass butt plate of the latter but no brass thumb piece. The gun pictured on the Pedersoli site is a bit different than mine as well. Lastly, mine has a maple (cherry?) rather than walnut stock, or at least I think it's maple. I will say this, regardless of who manufactured it, it IS a well constructed and fairly accurate piece.

[northmn]

Run of the mill originals rarely had a thumbpiece and "white wood" was also used. The vast majority of the repos are copied after the Barnett, however many are pretty generic. If it sparks well and shoots well you have a gun that will give a lot of enjoyment.

Northmn

[Maven]

All, Much to my chagrin, the barrel marking isn't "GBF," but "GRF" (poor light and old eyes!). Closer examination of the right rear of the lock plate also reveals a highly ornate or stylized GRF logo. Ethan at Track of the Wolf told me it means Green River Forge (long out of business). Matt Denison of NSW e-mailed me this AM to say that GRF produced high quality firearms, including a Hawken replica, before such craftsmanship became well known, if that's the proper way of phrasing it.

[northmn]

Green River barrels were very highly regarded. I do not remember if they made Northwest guns or not as I had only seen their rifle barrels. They even started making a powder, but their plant blew. For a while every body's brother was either making Hawkens or Hawken parts. But to be fair theirs was an accurate repo of the true Hawken Plains rifle.

DP

[Maven]

"Green River barrels were very highly regarded. I do not remember if they made Northwest guns or not as I had only seen their rifle barrels."

northmn, Obviously, they DID indeed make Northwestern trade guns. Mine's a copy of a ca. 1815 - 1830 Barnett gun. I'm just too lazy to photograph it and post pics here.

[northmn]

That was many years ago. I did not know if they made the barrels for someone like Curly or made their own. Memory's not all that good.

Northmn

[Maven]

It's been awhile since I last fired the Green River Forge (notice the correction in manufacturer) Trade Gun, but I did so today and was thrilled by how well it did: centered, small groups @ 25 yds.; only 1 hang fire (should have cleaned the vent); first shot in the X-ring. The only thing I did differently was to remove the bbl. from the stock (using the correct pin punch purchased for the occasion) and then squeezing it gently, but firmly between 2 pcs. of scrap wood in my vise*. I also used Loctite on the tang screws. Both .600" RB's (Dixe mold) and .595" RB's (Tanner mould) shot well using .015" ticking in the former and .018" ticking in the latter. Today I used 85 grs. Goex FFg and saliva for lube, wiping after seating the RB and sometimes after firing too. Things were going well until I got my patch/jag stuck in the bore (I thought I'd need to take the gun to a gunsmith!), but thankfully was able to remove it once I got home: WD-40 downbore helped loosen things up. You know how people always tell you to pin your ramrod tips? Suffice it to say that I learned that lesson in spades today.


*It took me quite awhile to work up the nerve to do this. However, it was quite easy, so much so that I took my Dixie poor boy out of its stock, cleaned and oiled it, and reassembled it in less than 15 mins.

[waksupi]

You only do the jag trick once. Then every ramrod end you have gets pinned!

[Maven]

"You only do the jag trick once. Then every ramrod end you have gets pinned!"

Ain't it the truth, Ric?!!

[405]

Pin the jag :)

How handy are those small finish nails/brads! Drill hole thru. Chamfer hole on each side. Insert pin. Cut to flush length. Peen each end to just below surface of brass.

[Maven]

It's pinned now, but it took some doing as it's a 5/16" Zn-coated steel rod (with a muzzle protector, of course!). The new jag has a threaded steel shaft rather than brass, as the latter becomes brittle over time and breaks off. (Guess how I know this?) Annealing the threaded portion of a jag isn't something I want to do, let alone even think about.

[405]

Got the picture now. 42 years ago this month I shot a heavy duty brass screw-in jag, that was sitting on top of a RB, out of a ML. During several loadings/swabbings the jag had come un-screwed and after loading a RB didn't notice the jag missing from the rod. I knew the recoil was a little heavier than normal and the ball made a "funny" whirring sound going downrange. Never did find the jag.

[mooman76]

I have always either pinned my rod tips or they already came that way. I just thought it was the way it should be so it wouldn't come off or come loose. I never even really considered that it could come off and get stuck in the barrel. Guess I was lucky.

[Roundball]

My 20 ga. Trade Gun has a Davis Lott Lock and Colerain 36" barrel and is doing well with patched round balls. I'm seeking suggestions for ball and buck loads for the 20ga. trade guns. Any help will be greatly appreciated.

[waksupi]

My 20 ga. Trade Gun has a Davis Lott Lock and Colerain 36" barrel and is doing well with patched round balls. I'm seeking suggestions for ball and buck loads for the 20ga. trade guns. Any help will be greatly appreciated.

I like to reduce my powder load, then put in the patched round ball, a card wad, and then a couple layers of buckshot. The closer you can get a shot size to making a full bore size layer, the better off you are. Then another card to hold things in place.
We have the World Smoothbore Championship this coming weekend, and Friday we are planning on doing load development with various shot sizes, and shot column sizes. Should be interesting!

[Swampman]

I'd switch to 3f. It's worked great in my Trade Guns.

[Maven]

Swampman, My first loads used 70 grs. Graf's (Wano) FFFg and actually shot about the same as the 85 gr. Goex or Graf's I'd been using, except there was more recoil. I also found out yesterday that the .600" Dixie RB shoots accurately with either a .015" or .018" patch and 75 gr. - 85 gr. Goex FFg. Neither thickness showed any sign of burn throughs and could easily have been used again. What I need to do is test the .595" Tanner RB with both .018" and .022" patches vs. the .600" Dixie RB with the .015" and .018" patches and not vary anything else.

[Swampman]

I soak my patches in a warm mixture of olive oil, bee's wax, and lard. Small ball thick patch is the way to go.

Wads are for shot......I've never used them with balls

I've beat 40 rifle shooters in a match.

[northmn]

I have been playing with my smooth rifle for a while and will stay with the 600 RB as I got good accuracy at 75 yards with them, easily minute of deer. Will have to install a vent insert as I wanted to play with the old fashioned straight hole, but had a few problems with broken bits and ended up with a little larger hole than I wanted. Also was getting a couple of long ignitions. May have to even finish the stock as I got it worked down to shooting condition and decided to shoot a while instead of rasping and sanding. Mine has sights and is not legal in smoothbore matches and is built more like a rifle, but it does seem to be a practical hunter. Funny thing is that it shoots about 95 grains of 2f dead on but really shoots high, like a foot higher with 110. 95 isn't all bad. Need to try shot as it has an express sight for a rear sight which, in the unlikely event I shoot at anything flying with it, should not interfere too much.

Northmn