45-70 new load question....

[iammarkjones]

Well I have cast a few Ranch Dog 460-425 boolits and loaded em up. Here is my data.

1895G marlin with Ballard rifling last years model
IMR 4198 36 grains
460-425 Ranch Dog mold cast from WW pill air cooled
weight 441.6 grains after GC and lube
lubed with LLA
sized to .458
Remington brass trimmed to 2.095 (+/- 00.001)
Lee factory crimp
C.O.A.L. 2.500
Hornady 45 cal gas checks
Ambient temp at firing 104 degrees farenhieght
Elevation 731 above sea level
1482 FPS average 5 shot
11 FPS extreme spread over 5 shots
1.73 group @ 50 yards with five shots


Ok so accuracy is awful, anyone see anything see anything that jumps up as needing improvement other than the group lol. Also the felt recoil on this load is BRUTAL. I have always shot rifles with heavy recoil but HOLY POO BATMAN this #@%$^!!!! is a kicker. The thing is I don't see it in the numbers. I have shot the Hornady lever revolution and found the recoil pleasant. Am I just way to hot? or lord help me not hot enough...?? Any assistance would be appreciated, the scope bite from my last shot on this string told me I need professional help!

[44man]

It looks like you just picked a book load without a workup.
But try 3031 powder, 4198 can be brutal.
4759 is also a great powder for it.

[BrianB]

Wow, that is bad. Has the gun been shot much? I'm asking because I know some people with Handi-Rifles get better groups once the gun has been fired a bit, maybe you could be experiencing the same thing? Nothing wrong is jumping out at me, I can't see 36 grains of anything being that bad on recoil, though I have not used 4198. (Though, you are slinging a CHUNK of lead) Maybe try moving somewhere cooler? 104 degrees? Where do you live? Hell? (Just yanking you! LOL)

[iammarkjones]

The problem was finding any relevant data for that size pill and powder combo. I backed off 10% of the lowest grain load I could find from a reputable site. How much would you recommend I back off on the powder? The FPS didn't seem out of the ballpark, just the blooming recoil.

[iammarkjones]

lol 104 in Jemison Alabama just a nice southern afternoon! Brian the gun has only had 60 or so rounds run in it. Plus these 5 one of which gave me a nice 1" long scope bite cut over my eye...

[BrianB]

Here's what I know. 40 to 41 grains of Reloder-7 with the Lee 340 grain mold is a very accurate and an easy shooting load that will knock down anything I will ever encounter. In a Handi-Rifle, not sure about other guns, the recoil dramatically increases at 43 grains of R-7. The 41 grain load of R-7 with either the Lee 340 bullet or the Hornady 300 grain HP is very manageable in the recoil department and kills deer really dead. (At 50-60 yards, it usually blows them back about 18 inches...I'm not kidding.)

The same loads have been excellent in a Browning 1885 High Wall.

The Lyman 293 grain bullet over 40 grains of 3031 has produced very accurate results for us in a Browning 1886 with minimal recoil, we have not shot this one in the other guns.

In my opinion, unless you're shooting cape buffalo or very angry elephants, go with a lighter bullet and Reloder-7...it has been long touted as the best modern powder for the 45-70 and I have been shooting that caliber for about 18 years. There is no reason to punish yourself, shooting is supposed to be fun! BTW, where is Jemison? Also, if you want to try some of the Lee or Lyman bullets I mentioned, I'll be glad to send you some.

[iammarkjones]

Man if you get angry with yourself and feel the need for abuse use my recipe above! In the mean time I am gonna go get me a pound of Reloder-7 and a lighter boolit mold. Thanks for the advise.

[mustanggt]

I shoot the same bullet. I shoot it as cast which is .460. My Marlins like a little fatter bullet. Try not sizing down. RL7 and 3031 are my favorite powders. Just start working on load developement and you should start to see results. I like a good rolling recoil, let's me know I'm shootin a big thumper. However I've never been able to make my 45/70 kick like a dead coyote load in my Remington 3 1/2" mag. That thing rattles my teeth loose. I've not had the unfortunate luck of getting my forhead tatooed. I look to get 1600fps or so out of it. That will kill whatever needs killing with that big a bullet. Good luck and watchout for the scope bite.

[DLCTEX]

I shoot that boolit with 4759 and size to .459 using 50/50 alox/BW. Pleasant load to shoot, but find the 340 RD more pleasant.

[iammarkjones]

mustanggt just wondering if I shoot as cast .460 for me with WW also, will the pressure increase to uh oh levels? I have a few still as cast with no GC pressed on yet. As for the scope bite I will post pics tomorrow after it turns that nice blue / purple / green!! ;>

[45r]

My XLR 45-70 likes 36 grains IMR 4198 with the saeco 350GC.It's my midload,I use49 grains Vitt-133 for a hunting load.Both went an inch or less at 60 yards today practicing,my Mtn Mold 405PB did the same with 28.5 grains 5744.The recoil doesn't seem to bad to me untill you get up to around 50 grains of the Vitt powder,I shot some rcbs 300GC boolits also at 49 grains Vitt-133,They went 1 inch at 60 yards,recoil wasn't too bad.I size my boolits at .459.

[mustanggt]

I always love to see a good shiner. Seriously I have crony'd those loads and they come very close to the book velocities. Only thing I don't like about going 460 is the gas checks aren't consistent at seating. Other than that it works well. As I said earlier 1600 fps works well for me and doesn't come close to max. I don't like to tickle the dragons tail if you know what I mean?

[44man]

Long ago a friend brought over an original trapdoor or rolling block, I forget which. The gunsmith loaded his rounds with the Lyman 405 gr and 4198.
I also loaded a bunch with my 500 gr Gov't boolit with 3031.
I started with the gunsmith's loads and the stock would bruise my cheek until I didn't want to shoot anymore. It shot high at 50 with poor groups.
I kept looking at my 500 gr loads with fear but tried them anyway.
WHAT A DIFFERENCE! :holysheep No more busted cheek bone and it shot to point of aim with super accuracy. Recoil felt half as much as the lighter boolit.
Then I tried my 317 gr boolit I use in my revolver with 3031 and I put 5 shots in one ragged hole but they hit low, well below the bull.
I made his loads with the 500 gr and he took a pile of deer but had to move out of state and I have not heard from him.
I forgot the gun and load I used because I gave him the info to take with him.
Some like RL-7 and I will agree, it is a fine powder.
I tried the 4198's in my 10" revolver and it scared me. I had pressure excursions with velocity jumping from 1600 fps to 1800 fps now and then with stuck brass.
I tend to believe it is like 4227, being very heat sensitive.
Another powder that might surprise you is Varget, the stuff actually shot well from my revolver. I never expected it to work in a short barrel. I then tried it in my 10" 7BR with 120 gr deer bullets and it is the only powder that worked and gives me good velocity even after Hodgdon said it would not work because it is too slow. They just don't know what they have! :bigsmyl2:
Don't try to turn the 45-70 into a .458, you just don't need it.

[iammarkjones]

We have a gun show in Birmingham Alabama this weekend I am gonna go see if I can save that $20 haz-mat fee and get a couple of different powders. Varget (Hodgdon) comes in at 117 on the powder burn rate chart 4198 (IMR) comes in at 88. I am still a new reloader only been at it a couple of years, but that seems like a big difference in burn rates? 3031 (IMR) lands at 94, so it is closer to the published data I have found. With all that being said I would still love to get the 4198 to a workable load since I do have 2 pounds of it...... I may need to put it under a lighter pill something in the 300 grain range. There again the wife cut the defense budget so I really need to make what I got work. I have already got busted with 5 more 5 gallon buckets of WW's anything else will have me sleeping in my shop.

[BABore]

Well I have cast a few Ranch Dog 460-425 boolits and loaded em up. Here is my data.

1895G marlin with Ballard rifling last years model
IMR 4198 36 grains
460-425 Ranch Dog mold cast from WW pill air cooled
weight 441.6 grains after GC and lube
lubed with LLA
sized to .458
Remington brass trimmed to 2.095 (+/- 00.001)
Lee factory crimp
C.O.A.L. 2.500
Hornady 45 cal gas checks
Ambient temp at firing 104 degrees farenhieght
Elevation 731 above sea level
1482 FPS average 5 shot
11 FPS extreme spread over 5 shots
1.73 group @ 50 yards with five shots


Ok so accuracy is awful, anyone see anything see anything that jumps up as needing improvement other than the group lol. Also the felt recoil on this load is BRUTAL. I have always shot rifles with heavy recoil but HOLY POO BATMAN this #@%$^!!!! is a kicker. The thing is I don't see it in the numbers. I have shot the Hornady lever revolution and found the recoil pleasant. Am I just way to hot? or lord help me not hot enough...?? Any assistance would be appreciated, the scope bite from my last shot on this string told me I need professional help!

Most current Marlin 1895's have 0.4582 to 0.4587 groove diameters. Most have bbl thread and dovetail constrictions which size the boolit down as it passes through them. Contrary to popular belief, Marlin's "deep cut" Ballard rifling is only 0.003" or so deep. About the same as MicroGroove. Most if not all Marlin 45-70's and 450 Marlins will chamber a 0.462 diameter boolit. Your boolit is too small. Shoot it unsized.

H or IMR 4198 is not the greatest powder in the world for 425 grain boolits. 300 to 350 grain it's ok, but Reloder 7 will usually beat it. For a 425 grain boolit, I would be using 3031, H322, and Benchmark if you want to go fast like 1,700-1,800 fps. They can be loaded down a bit, but not in your 1,400 fps range. H335 or 4895 would be better suited as they are a touch on the slow side for caliber. As mentioned above, 4759 is a good powder for your current velocity. Primers can make a huge difference in accuracy. It's worth trying different ones. I prefer CCI 200's for general use and Federal 210M match primers for accuracy. Your mileage may vary.

Right now you have a situation where your shooting a relatively soft boolit down a shallow rifled bbl, with a boolit that is too small. The boolit your using with the modified TL groove does not have much bearing surface to take the limited rifling contact. The load is somewhat secondary to these problems at this point. With this boolit you want them big and may need them harder. I would test them both air cooled and water dropped for comparison.

[iammarkjones]

Thanks for the advise BABore, I have enough unsized at .460 left from my last casting run to test. I do have two questions. If I use a bigger pill do I need to be worried about excessive pressure? Also how the devil do I get the gas check on without sizing?

[BABore]

Thanks for the advise BABore, I have enough unsized at .460 left from my last casting run to test. I do have two questions. If I use a bigger pill do I need to be worried about excessive pressure? Also how the devil do I get the gas check on without sizing?

At the pressure level your running I wouldn't worry about it. Cast boolits, even very hard ones, are a far cry from jacketed hardness. Your bbl makes a very effective sizing die. I commonly shoot boolits 0.004 to 0.005 over groove size. I'd advise you to work up loads carefully and watch for pressure signs, but a rearlock-up levergun with max loads below 43 kpsi do not exhibit pressure signs like bolt guns. This means that flattened primers, sticky extraction, case head expansion (CHE), and pressure ring expansion (PRE) don't work. When you do see these indicators, your already way over pressure. Stick with book loads and below and you will be fine. Look for similar weight boolits that also have similar seating depth and bearing surface. A little variance in weight and bearing surface won't get you in too much trouble. Seating depth, or the amount of boolit in the case will. Ranch Dog has some pressure tested data on his old website for his various boolits.

How do you get the GC on a 0.460 boolit when you only have a 0.458 die? Get a bigger die or open up the one you already have. If it's a Lee, there's some stickies here somplace on how to do it with a dowel and emery paper. Do a search. If your using an H&I die (which I doubt cause your tumble lubing) contact Buckshot here on the forum. He specializes in opening up these dies. Also check with RanchDog. He was getting 0.460 Lee dies made for him.

[fredj338]

Here's what I know. 40 to 41 grains of Reloder-7 with the Lee 340 grain mold is a very accurate and an easy shooting load that will knock down anything I will ever encounter. In a Handi-Rifle, not sure about other guns, the recoil dramatically increases at 43 grains of R-7. The 41 grain load of R-7 with either the Lee 340 bullet or the Hornady 300 grain HP is very manageable in the recoil department and kills deer really dead. (At 50-60 yards, it usually blows them back about 18 inches...I'm not kidding.)

I just could not get the Lee 340gr to shoot in my GG. I tried 3031, 4918 & RL7, ac ww, water dropped, up & down the vel scale. The best I could do was bout 4" @ 100yds. Then I bought the RCBS 325gr. Very sim shape, actually casts closer to 340gr w/ ww & I did get my groups down to 2" w/ 3031 running about 1600fps. The RCBS seems to have a thicker rear band, & slightly deeper lubne grooves, ,maybe?

[iammarkjones]

Well I took my Lee 00.4570 sizer die, and opened it up to push a pill out at 00.4585. I hesitate to run it up to 00.460 without testing along the way. I am gonna cast today LLA lube tonight, and will be ready to test tommorow.

[mpmarty]

I use H335 in my Marlin and here's a little spreadsheet for your perusal.
Shooting prone I use a sissy pad on my shoulder. Offhand I don't need it.

[WHITETAIL]

I would go out and get a Limsaver slip on pad.
Then go and try the powders mention here.:roll:

[iammarkjones]

lol Yeah I think I have developed a flinch! I am now reduced to shooting prone with a folded towel between me and the weapon. The group did tighted up a tiny bit when I opened up the sizing die. My next thought was to start going up and down with the charge. This is my first foray into rifle reloading, what is a good amount to move the powder charge each time something like 1/2 grain?

[Ridgerunner665]

To take the sting out of the recoil of your load...load up a few loads using 405 Beartooth bullets (or similar) using 50 grains of H322.

After firing those...your load won't feel so bad.

[crabo]

lol Yeah I think I have developed a flinch! I am now reduced to shooting prone with a folded towel between me and the weapon. The group did tighted up a tiny bit when I opened up the sizing die. My next thought was to start going up and down with the charge. This is my first foray into rifle reloading, what is a good amount to move the powder charge each time something like 1/2 grain?

I would go up and down by a grain, then go 1/2 on either side once I found a sweet spot.

[catboat]

Agree with other posters about bullet size diameter. 0.458" is likely too small. Size the bullet to at least 0.460" or try unsized (as long as they chamber).

You can get a Lee .458" push through size die and polish it open to a diameter larger than that (.460", .461", .462" etc), to custom fit your bore/chamber needs.

[d garfield]

I shoot a sharps, use 405 cast ww,25 grn 4759 win primers. Crony says 1320 avg speed recoil not bat. I shot 50 today, shoots about1.5 in at 100 and 4 in at 200. Best powder I have trie d yet.