Bear stopper alloy

[Marlin Junky]

This is probably the wrong place to bring up this subject but, how hard should an alloy be for a bear defense load? Rifle is a 444, boolit is the Lee430310 and the impact velocity is about 1900 fps.

MJ

[RugerFan]

That depends. Do you want a degree of expansion or none at all? The pic below is of a Lyman 429244 (AC WW) that was recovered from a boar hog I shot last fall at 8 paces. Estimated MV was 1800-1850 fps (Dropped the hog in it's tracks by the way). Good penetration with the hide catching the slug on the opposite side. If you want less expansion try heat treating and/or add tin. Just keep in mind that too much linotype can cause the bullet to fragment (which would make the bear angry).

[454PB]

I'm no expert on shooting bears, but I would think that using that boolit and velocity, anything from pure lead on up would shoot clean through. Some might be larger in diameter when they exit than others though:roll:

[Marlin Junky]

I just want to win the fight. If that means I need some expansion with full penetration through muscle and bone then so be it. I cooked up some loads tonight using Lee 430310 at 300 grains naked (about 14 BHN) backed by 46 grains of Re7. I guess it's safe to go pick Huckleberries now :-D

MJ

[Bass Ackward]

A defense bullet hardness would differ from a hunting hardness because of the shot angles presented, required, taken. A defense load is meaning the bear is coming at you pretty much head on. The head is going to be in the way of most vitals and even if it isn't, you have to plan for an accidental head hit anyway.

As fast as 1900 fps sounds for this task, it is still slow. Therefore, your lead is going to have to be hard not to deform. How hard? As hard as you can get it. Otherwise you risk hitting the head and deflection of the slug. After the head is penetrated, you must either smash through the vertibre and out or follow the back bone all the way down based upon where the bear was in his stride. (Up or down) So penetration will be a requirement either way.

IMO.

[BPCS]

Are you referring to stopping black bears or grizzly? I think I would want a bullet with a wide flat meplate, heavy weight for caliber, and standard linotype with a
Bh of 22.

[Marlin Junky]

Grizzly. The Lee430310 (similar to an WFN) is what I selected. I was under the impression Linotype is too brittle so I went with an ACWW+solder alloy that registers 14 to 15 BHN.

MJ

[RugerFan]

MJ,
Bass Ackward's advice hit the nail on the head. Very good sumation of a defense load senario. And yes, I still maintain that 100% lino is a bad idea here. A hard bullet yes, but don't risk fragmentation.

[Marlin Junky]

Am I not going to get enough penetration from a Lee430310 at BHN 14 to 15 If launched at about 2000 fps?

MJ

P.S. I'm not talking about Alaskan Brown Bears... only Montana Grizzlies.

[Bass Ackward]

Am I not going to get enough penetration from a Lee430310 at BHN 14 to 15 If launched at about 2000 fps?

MJ

P.S. I'm not talking about Alaskan Brown Bears... only Montana Grizzlies.


MJ,

I would say not based on some of the stuff I have read. A head shot with 15 BHN could deflect with the correct angle. Now I know that your next question is, what is the correct angle? My answer is that I don't know and I darn sure don't want to find out. HT that mix in some way and you should be there. But remember to load fresh stuff every six months or so because that mix will soften to about 20 BHN after one year. It might still work, but why risk it.

Realize that this is not just my theory. There are many examples of this even occuring on elk which is not as rounded. I believe that Elmer Keith had an episode like this if I can remember correctly. A head is rounded hard bone that is always moving in some direction with an oncoming animal. Do some searching and research it for yourself. Once you understand the requirements, you can better decide which way you want to go.

I can tell you how to run penetration testing for hunting, but I can think of nothing that might mimic a head bone but an actual head. There was an article written by a professional guide on many years of bear hunting within the last year where he was required to be that final line. I remember that it was a good article and he told what worked and what he wished he never found out that didn't. What I can't remember is where I read it. If I do, I will post it for you.

[Doughty]

Not that we're talking about the same thing exactly, but I once shot a wounded, angry, still on it's feet black bear in the head from a distance of about 10 yards, with a .308 Win 150 grain Sierra. The bullet didn't exit, but it put an end to his already bad day. Having fired many rounds since then, if I were in the same situation again, and armed with your rifle and load, I'd want the bullet to be WWs, oven tempered to about 24 BHN.

[Ranch Dog]

This is probably the wrong place to bring up this subject but, how hard should an alloy be for a bear defense load? Rifle is a 444, boolit is the Lee430310 and the impact velocity is about 1900 fps.

MJ... Let me add some information based on my experiences with this boolit, a similar boolit and the 444.

My casting interest started with the Lee C430-310-RF and I used it for hog hunting with my 444. My initial work was with 1 to 10, tin to WW, air cooled. These boolits were around 11 to 13 BHN and worked great on broadside shots on big hogs. In that you are asking about a bear defense boolit, let me relate my experience with a head shot hog...

http://home.awesomenet.net/~ranch-dog/Casting/TLC432285RF/Images/444 Trail Dog.jpg

http://home.awesomenet.net/~ranch-dog/Casting/TLC432285RF/Images/Hog vs 12D.jpg

The top picture is that of one absolutely pissed off trail dog. I had just shot a very large feral hog we encountered at 40-yards right square in the head with the above mentioned boolit at 1900 FPS out of my 444. The lower picture is that of my size 12D boot against the track of this hog. The end result of this encounter is that the boolit splattered against this hogs skull without entering. It knocked him down but before I could lever a second round he was on his feet and moving. The good thing is that he decided to reverse direction and leave. Me, my 444, and my dog would have been in big trouble had he continued with his intended route.

That week I bought 2000# of linotype from a old printing press and started casting 1 to 1, LT/WW. I also water quench it for a BHN of 31 to 33. To date and with dozen of big game animals taken, I have had no bad experiences with bullet fracturing.

http://home.awesomenet.net/~ranch-dog/Casting/TLC432285RF/Images/TLC432285RF Test.jpg

About that same time I received my TLC432-285-RF mold from Lee so after casting with the 1/1, I tried the very scientific test of whacking the boolit with the largest sledge hammer I could find. The boolit on the right was hit with a 10# hammer as hard as I could whack it while it was sitting on a concrete floor. No fracturing.

http://home.awesomenet.net/~ranch-dog/Casting/TLC432285RF/Images/TLC432 Mushroomed.jpg

This was my first boolit shot into a hog at 80-yards. It was broadside and passed through the nearside shield and hung up in the far side shield. It broke ribs on both sides. The muzzle velocity was 2100 FPS.

http://home.awesomenet.net/~ranch-dog/Casting/TLC432285RF/Images/444 Cast Boolits.jpg

I went on to testing in the field with head on shots. I would watch a field of sunflowers in the evening, see the plants start to sway from a hog feeding, and maneuver into position for a head on shot. All these were from 20 to 25 yards with my 444P at 2100 FPS. These boolit all hit the hogs in the forehead and were found in the body cavity.

The boolit on the left is the Beartooth 300-grain WFNGC at 2000 FPS. Marshall asked me to test it. The two on the right are the Lee TLC432-285-RF cast with the 1 to 1 at 265-grains.

Where all this was leading was to for a South Texas nilgai hunt I had booked. The four ranches that these free ranging animals are available on have a very strict booking policy of belted magnums of 30 caliber or greater. It took a bit of a presentation on the 444 to convince one of the ranches to allow me to hunt with my Marlin. I wanted to use a home cast boolit but I wanted to make sure it was up to the task at hand.

http://home.awesomenet.net/~ranch-dog/Casting/TLC432285RF/Images/Nilgai.jpg

http://home.awesomenet.net/~ranch-dog/Casting/TLC432285RF/Images/Nilgai Boolit.jpg

This is a picture of the animal and the boolit that killed it. The boolit broke both shoulders and hung up in the hide on the far side. The shot was at 125-yards at a muzzle velocity of 2400 FPS. This is the first leveraction and first cast boolit kill the ranch has had after 50 years of hunting these animals. One hunter lost his animal after two solid hits with a 338WM.

I've shot boolits from 200-grains to 415-grains out of my 444 and would not hesitate to use the rifle for a big bear hunt. I would consider a hard-cast boolit as the medicine to use with a minimum MV of 2100 FPS. As boolits exceed 300 to 315-grains they really start to rob the cartridge of case capacity and hence, muzzle velocity.

[Marlin Junky]

So, what's the proper way to heat treat boolits cast from wheel weights and solder?

Thanks for all the advice.

MJ

P.S. And... do I heat treat, then apply gas checks or vice versa? The boolits measure about .432" and I was going to apply the GC's with a .433" (custom cut) Lyman 450 die.

[Marlin Junky]

I gave heat treating my BHN 14 to 15 alloy my best shot and failed big time. I had the bullets in a 450F oven for over an hour (thermometer said 500F but I don't believe it) and I plunged them into ice water within 4 to 5 seconds of taking them out of the oven. The result based on my Lee Hardness Tester was a slight softening compared to the same bullets that were air cooled. The only thing I can conclude at this time is there isn't enough arsenic in my alloy.

Maybe I go see what Beartooth has to offer.

MJ

[garandsrus]

MJ,

Someone with more experience will probably chime in, but I think it takes a little time for the bullets to harden up... You should have some antimony in the WW metal. Check them every day for a week or two and see what happens.

When water dropping WW, which should be pretty equivalent to the oven heat treating, I have read that the boolits should be sized and lubed shortly after casting so that they can be sized before they harden, which takes a couple days.

John

[waksupi]

Geez, you guys are scaring me! Here, I wander around the mountains all the time, with whatever gun I may happen to have, with whatever hardness bullets may happen to be in it. Dadnabbit, another thing to worry about!

Marlin Junky, if you tested the bullets immediately after quenching, they should have read as pure lead, or near to it. Give them a day to harden.

You can get pretty much any hardness you want, by experimenting with different temperatures in the oven.

[onceabull]

Ric..maybe your reputation goes before you,clearing all hazards amongst the pole timber,deadfalls,and other thickets...if not,I've a line on double 585 nambibianthunderboomer for lease,on short or long term.I'm told the last two leasee's returned it and sought refunds on 9 of the 10 cartridges they got with it.. best, Onceabull :Fire:

[waksupi]

I have big boomers, just don't carry them all the time. I don't believe the guys who go out to paintball grizzlies, ever carry guns, at all. Hmmmm..... Haven't heard from them for awhile....?

[454PB]

Some years ago, a friend of mine decided to butcher one of his very nasty beef bulls. He asked me to do the kill. This bull weighed 1600 lbs., and I used my Ruger SBH loaded with the Lyman 429244 GC, cast from WW and weighing 255 gr., 24 Gr. H-110, which chronographed 1400 fps. His wife had told me she wanted the tongue from this bull. I shot him in the forehead, from above and about 3 feet away while he was contained in a shute, and the boolit traveled completely through his very large head and exited the neck, never to be found. It had penetrated about 1 1/2" of skull plate, the entire head, and went right through the tongue. His wife was really upset about that holed tongue. I'm glad she didn't want the brains.

[versifier]

How about adding a 3/8" steel ball bearing core to create a homegrown AP round? With a little bit of soldering flux on the steel, it ought to bond very well with the alloy, if it could be kept centered. How do they keep the cores centered in making military bullets?

454PB,
At our local butcher's, everything from roasting piglets to full grown cattle are dispatched by putting the muzzle of an ancient bolt action rifle touching the forehead slightly higher than right between the eyes. It never takes more than one shot. What is this amazing and versatile round? A .22 short rimfire, though they do flatten the point with a pocket knife for the bigger critters. Don't tell your friend's wife....

[Marlin Junky]

Waksupi,

Thanks for the input. I'll check 'em again tonight.

Hey, you live on the North Shore! I'll be in your neck off the woods in less than a month looking for property to build lodging on. That's the wife's idea but I can deal with it if we can make a living off the travel and tourism trade. Personally I'd like to get about 80 acres, build a greenhouse, a chicken coupe, live off the land and build a rifle range but I'm not sure how that'll effect the wife's plans.

MJ

[Beerd]

paintballing grizzlies.......a new spectator sport

2006:mrgreen:

[Marlin Junky]

I'm not sure I understand this "paintballing grizzlies" thing but I just came up with another question about heat treating boolits:

How deep does the hardening go? What exactly are we creating by HT'ing? For example, a BHN 14 boolit with a BHN 20-something jacket?

MJ

[Bass Ackward]

I'm not sure I understand this "paintballing grizzlies" thing but I just came up with another question about heat treating boolits:

How deep does the hardening go? What exactly are we creating by HT'ing? For example, a BHN 14 boolit with a BHN 20-something jacket?

MJ

HTing creates a crystal formation of the structure of the lead molecules. They will harden throughout as long as they remain understurbed. Then the bullets will slowly soften over one year coming to a hardness level that is above the air cooled hardness. WW will harden to between 20 and 35 depending on temperature, speed of the quench and caliber of the bullets. (small diameters cool more quickly) Most hardness levels after one year will range from between 18 and 20, regardless of how hard they peeked at, for the 15 years I have been testing.

[waksupi]

Waksupi,

Thanks for the input. I'll check 'em again tonight.

Hey, you live on the North Shore! I'll be in your neck off the woods in less than a month looking for property to build lodging on. That's the wife's idea but I can deal with it if we can make a living off the travel and tourism trade. Personally I'd like to get about 80 acres, build a greenhouse, a chicken coupe, live off the land and build a rifle range but I'm not sure how that'll effect the wife's plans.

MJ

Give a holler, when you are in the area. And, if you want to buy 80 acres around here, you better have a couple million bucks to spare! And don't hold your breath, on the travel and tourism. What kind of business were you looking at?

[onceabull]

re:travel&tourism,flathead river country.. Good advice from Waksupi, Who will spend $,and how often,to be around the ex-Kalif.crowd there.[smilie=1: eh , onceabull

[Marlin Junky]

Waksupi,

We're not sure about the type pf business to operate yet which is why we'll be hanging out in the Whitefish/Columbia Falls area for a couple weeks this September to get a feel for the area. I've vacationed in Whitefish a couple times but wasn't really thinking about moving then. We're also going to spend some time looking around Yellowstone. My wife wants to build a B&B and I want to be a blacksmith... quite a combination, eh? How far from the lake does one need to go in order to find land for $5000/acre or less?

marlinjunky@yahoo.com

[MT Gianni]

Several thousand miles east. Should do it, Land in the Missoula area is a little cheaper at $100,000 an acre. Not a typo, Gianni

[waksupi]

Gianni has the land prices thing pretty much right on. Two acres, with a two bedroom cabin across the road from me, sold for $400,000 a couple months ago. Makes my 6 acres and little shack look some better. Thirty acres of plumb gawd awful steep, is for sale above me, $399,000, Impossible winter access, no utilities, or developed building site. The neighbors had to use a helicopter to get in thier roof trusses.
B&B? Don't know if anyone is getting rich at it. The local ones are never fully booked.
Ornamental blacksmithing is on again, off again business here. Whitefish is overly Yuppie, and they in fact made the sale of new firearms against the law up there last month. Whitefish, is not Montana, hasn't been for years.
The Flathead area is poised for a serious crash. Construction is tapering off. And that is where the money is now. The extractive industries, like logging, has pretty much been eliminated by environmentalist, as has the mining. Construction goes away, and this returns to Appalacia West, as it is between booms. Also consider gas prices, and they tourists will not be spending as much. I have seen tourism down somewhat this year, most of the vehicles from adjoining states.
I'm not looking to scare you off, but if you plan on relocating up here, do it with your eyes wide open.

[Marlin Junky]

First about the boolits: they measured about 1/3 harder the following day... :-D

About everything else:

I wish I mentioned this before booking 8 nights at the Kandahar Lodge. Thank you for the input.

MJ

[onceabull]

M----J---: While searching ,consider Sheridan,Wy.unless there is a personal reason not to....Not on EVERY SoKalif. speculators screen YET.. Locals may scream about R.E.Price escalation,but it's nothing like what happened already from the Bitterroot to Glacier Pk. Spearfish S.D.worth a looksee,too. Good luck in your endeavor...Onceabull

[Marlin Junky]

onceabull,

What about Cody?

waksupi,

Please explain "... and they in fact made the sale of new firearms against the law up there last month." in more detail. Where do you buy guns? When I was up there in May '02, I was target shooting practically on the banks of Hungry Horse with full house .44's from my 5-1/2" Super Blackhawk. I even had a Forrest Service guy drive by to check me out without stopping (I was running some 320's through my cheapo Chrony at the time).

MJ

[onceabull]

M-----J------> GREAT PLACE,unfortunately a LOT more "discovered"than Sheridan..If it fit's the finances, a fine choice... Onceabull

[KCSO]

Come to Nebraska!
We have land for $1500 and up all with a good view of the Great American Desert. Join the exodus of ex city dwellers intent on changing the country into a mini ghetto.

Sorry I just got another call from a city dweller complaining that his neighbor was shooting a gun, for no reason at all! I am afraid that in 10 more years only Ted Turner types will be able to afford a place in the country. My Brother in Law served 25 years in the army with the intention of retiring in Montana and by the time he retired he couldn't afford 4 acres of rocky mountainside. Now I see it starting in the midwest.

[Bullshop]

Plenty of nice country here for $500.00 per acre. We have a cold filter to weed out the rifraf. Not much chance of urban sprawl. Bring yer long wooly undies! Fresh snow down to about 3000ft last night. First frost this year was Aug 2.
BIC/BS

[onceabull]

Well Dan,one is going to face a "nippy"morning or three in most of the places mentioned in this thread..BUT, there's some daylight every one of the 365..I faced amazing(to me) conditions while visiting S-I-L Bubba's folks farm(their words).That New Years morning woke up to 12 deg.F. ,NE Tennessee about 40 airmiles from N.C. line..AND 3 mornings later in Crawfordville,Fl. O'nite low was 16 F. and IT WASN'T A DRY COLD.. couldn't wait to get back to the right side of the Rockies.:roll: Onceabull

[waksupi]

onceabull,

What about Cody?

waksupi,

Please explain "... and they in fact made the sale of new firearms against the law up there last month." in more detail. Where do you buy guns? When I was up there in May '02, I was target shooting practically on the banks of Hungry Horse with full house .44's from my 5-1/2" Super Blackhawk. I even had a Forrest Service guy drive by to check me out without stopping (I was running some 320's through my cheapo Chrony at the time).

MJ

Plenty of places to buy guns, just can't do it in Whitefish. It has been captured by the enemy. City council made an ordinance.
And, you can shoot most anyplace out of town. The FS guys wouldn't stop, being afraid of getting shot. They are none too popular here.

[felix]

Coldest feeling place, psycho mainly, is in the Carolinas. Water is at its thickest density at 36 degrees. Give 34-40 degrees a little wind with some humidity, say 80 percent or better, and all of a sudden you think fireplace. Florida gets cold, and so does New Orleans and Houston. ... felix

[Marlin Junky]

This is kind of a fun thread even though it's got nuthin' to do with boolits anymore.

I cancelled our reservations at The Kandahar Lodge in Whitefish, MT and booked a week in Cody. After which we're thinking about heading to Ketchum/Sun Valley... or the Panhandle.

MJ

P.S. Did I kill this thread by mentioning Sun Valley?

[Ken O]

A couple days ago, I cooked supper, ate, and sat down to watch the news. Something caught my eye outside as I'm sitting at a window. It was a huge black bear, it came up to my birdfeeder and tore it off.
I goes to the safe to get a "just in case" gun, I got lots to choose from, but I quickly decided on the 45-70 Marlin Guide gun, and loaded some 405s in it. I sits back down, and the bear is on its back shaking the feeder into its mouth, he/she is only four or five feet away from where I am sitting at the open window. I even yelled a couple of times, but it paid no attention, then after it cleaned out the feeder it just got up and wondered off.
I think I had chose the 45-70 because it gave me the biggest comfort factor at the time, maybe bigger is better when it comes down to close enconters. I have nothing to offer for what works since I didnt have to fire.

[Bad luck Bill]

Pretty wild story! I guess you weren't interested in eating some bear, huh? I didn't realize bear were so prevelant. I live in M.D. and we even have some black bear now, one even wondered near Baltimore City...about twelve miles or so outside of the city...made the news a few years ago. We even have coyotes now, thanks to the wildlife guys repopulating the area. I guess they're trying to manage the deer population. I thought that was what guns are for!

[robertbank]

Now cut that out about "snow"! I'm not that far from you and don't need a reminder. But hey it is still August and are temps are running into the 70's. No sign of fresh snow on the mountains and shouldn't be for a month or so but who knows.

Take Care

Bob

[Bullshop]

robertbank
Just right over there in terrace bc. I didnt know that. Its a very nice place to live too. We got a hard frost last night that left plenty of ice. Garden looks droopy accept for the cabage.
BIC/BS

[robertbank]

Bullshop

Have you eer taken the ferry down to PR. Rupert then into the interior via Hwy 16?

See a lot of Alaska plates going through heading down to the lower 48.

If you ever do drop me a line. You could stay over for a night or two and we could tell lies to each other over a Bar BQ and a Molsons

Take Care

Bob

[Bullshop]

robertbank
Yes many times. I was based in the Bitter root valey in Mt. for about 20 years. As a seasonal timber faller I made my way to Ketchikan via PR every spring. From there to a job somwhere in south east. Preciate the offer but since retired and the cost of fuel not likely.
I am feelin pretty bad about this fellas thread bein stolen so I will tell a story.
I met a fella at the Fairbanks gun show and he had on his table several sectioned bear skulls. I dumbly aksed whuts this for. He said to show where the thin spots are so you know where to shoot. He held a half skull up to the light and sure enough there was thin spots you could see light through. He also told me a story of a little native bear hunter he met in a village. He said he saw many skulls at the mans house each with one 22 cal hole through. When he asked what he shot them with the man told him he used a 22 special. He said you must be very carefull to shoot just in the right spot and they must be very close. He stressed the need to hit the right spot. One thin spot was just behind the ear and higher than the ear hole.
I have killed many bears most with cast boolits. I shot a small black in that soft spot with a 25/20 and it took the top of the skull off. I also shot one in self defence at about 20 feet comming at me. I used a 44 mag with 250gn Keith boolits cast of acww. Went through the head with a frontal shot. Load was 20gn 2400. I had to stalk a wonded grizz, wonded by neibor and finaly came face to face in a permafrost spruce thicket at about twice the length of my old Marlin 45/70 Boo. It was loaded with a 500gn paper patch at about 1600 fps. The bear was begining its leap at me when the 30/1 alloy boolit struck just under the chin. It was knocked out instantly and dead at my feet. I did this beacuse he had wonded the bear and it fled to a brush lot that is between our properties by about a half mile. I would not have a wonded bear that close to my house with my children about. I must say it was a very exciting experiance. I found the boolit while skinning the bear under the hide on the rump and it looked like a two bit peace.
So I guess what I am saying in answer to this thread is I would feel just fine with acww alloy if it was being launched by enough gun. I just cant see a boolit of acww or quenched ww deflecting if started at a decent speed for the job, like in the 1500 range and of enough weight, like over 400gn at the range we are talking about. There ya go just my opinion. I know it aint gona jibe with most others, but mine is based on experiance of my own and not of others.
Goday BIC/BS

[onceabull]

Darnit,Dan, it sounds as though you might have been carrying B00 with a cartridge in the chamber throught that scrub stuff> BE CAREFUL,, :roll: onceabull

[robertbank]

Your experience mirrors my own. A bears skull is tough but it isn't bullet proof. My .45-08 cartridges will do a number on either peices IF I hit them right. Not a hunting round but plenty if ranges are close and accuracy and speed are paramount.

I suspect a FMJ 230 gr bullet would do just as well but with the LSWC you get the benefits of punching clean holes through blood vessels. Good for Blacks not so hot on the Grizzley. We have more Blacks where I am mostly. Grizzlies are towards Kitimat but sometimes they don't read maps!

Close encounter with a female Black in July. Fortunately her and her cub decided to wonder off which was OK with me.

Take Care

Bob

[Marlin Junky]

Heck, no need to 'pologize... I had fun with this thread and learned somethin' too. I should have tried heat treatin' long ago.

I ran a twelve shot string through the Chrony Beta and onto paper yesterday using the following:

Lee 430310 cast of clip-on WW metal/solder alloy registering right around 15 BHN air-cooled and weighing 301 grains naked. My mould is Beagled to drop .432" boolits on the trailing band. After one hour in the oven at 450F, I quenched in ice water and two days later installed annealed Hornady checks. Boolits were loaded on top 46 grains of Re7 in Remington .444 brass. Primers were WLR.

Shooting the 12 round string at 50 yards with a .093" aperture and Williams Firesight produced four, 3-shot groups under 1" with an extreme velocity spread of 25 fps... yes I was pleased. The average velocity for the 12 rounds was 2131 fps from the 18.5" barrel. Temp was in the 90's.

MJ

[waksupi]

Darnit,Dan, it sounds as though you might have been carrying B00 with a cartridge in the chamber throught that scrub stuff> BE CAREFUL,, :roll: onceabull

I'm guilty too, then. I always have a chambered cartridge when hunting. i do keep the safety on, and the one between the ears engaged!

[Bullshop]

onceabull
The only way to be carefull in that case was to have a round chamberd and a couple backers in the tube!!! Dont know whut would be worse gettin shot or gettin eaten!

robertbank
I have a neibor here that raises bison for slaughter. He has tried many different things for killing them both rifle and hand gun. I remember early in the lerning curve I loaded him some 454 Casull with a 400gn boolit. This was good !!! They sent a big bull down the shute and when he got just right for the shot BOOM and he buckles right now. The boolit (acww) hit center in the forhead penitrated the skull scrambled the brain, shattered the axis joint and out the back of the neck, then reentered the hump demolished about 4 heavy vertibra and exited through a fist size hole in the back and went wizzing off toward Canada. He said lets dont do that again!
After all is said and done he found the best thing for the job is a 45 acp with standerd 230 ball. You see over penitration is a problem cause if it penitrates to the toung and causes damage they get docked for quality.
He said the 45 acp 230 ball load stops in the brain which is just what they want. Not what any of us would call a stopper round but should make all of us feel better about the ones we do.

Marlin Junky
I will bet that load will drill through and through any bear skull God ever made.
BIC/BS

[robertbank]

These threads pop up on a number of forums and I try to tell the folks you need something you can shoot accurately and quickly. Carrying a 454 Casull can get darn right tiring for starters and I can't imagine firing that hand cannon quickly. Accurately maybe for the first shot but not so sure about the 2nd.

I know bears are big and can be nasty but they aren't tanks either. Problem as I see it is it comes down to what you can get at quickly. As you know we have some pretty good fishing around here and I like to stream fish but I run out of hands so carrying a sidearm makes sense. I figure I got 7 rds for the bear and one for me.

Chances are remote I'll ever need it but I sure as heck am not going to be caught empty handed.

Guys got to remember you aren't hunting bears in the situation we are talking about. Just close encounters of the very personal kind like 7 to 15 yards of warning! I prefer hardcast 200 gr LSWC for the job but 230 FMJ will do just as well.

Take Care & remember coffee is always on and the side doors open.

Bob

[robertbank]

Here are some pictures from an after a Polar Bear attack. Don't open it if you are sqemish.

http://www.snopes.com/photos/gruesome/polarbear.asp#photo4


Take Care

Bob

[Bad luck Bill]

Your link is defective Bob, post a new one so we can see the pics!

[robertbank]

There you go sorry about that. I think you will find it will come up now.

Take Care

Bob

[Bullshop]

When BS Mom and I were living in timber camps in the islands in south east Alaska we each had a fising gun. We each carried a Marlin 44 mag carbine slung muzzle down. Muzzle down cauze its always raining. There have been countless times when we were in the creek and there was bears on the bank on each side of us. Not being agressive to us but just fishing too. The one rule to go by is the bears own the fish. If you have one and he wants it give it to him.
My working load for the Marlin is the Lee 310 gn at 1700 fps. I dont know how to get more power than this in a smaller package than the marlin, and have the accurate fire power (10 shot mag) the little carbine offers.
We never had to use them but I never felt short sticked with it.
BIC/BS

[Bad luck Bill]

No problem...

That man sure did look pretty mangled, didn't he? The worst part was the foot/ankle. I don't think he'll ever walk properly again, unless he gets a good doctor and some serious blessings from God! Did you notice the back end of the bear? It looked like the bear was sliced or something. What do you think caused that? I don't think that is an exit wound from a gunshot. The next time I camp in bear country I'll be sleeping with my gun beside me!

[robertbank]

That isn't the bear that is the poor guys sculp I think.

Pays to keep a gun close at hand that is for sure. The chances of it happening are pretty rare but you never know. Polar Bears are carnivors and probably more likely to look upon you as a meal compared to Blacks and Grizzlies but that is just a guess on my part.

Take Care

Bob

[Bad luck Bill]

Nah, not the guys scalp but the bear, one of the pictures show a pretty nasy wound towards the polar bear's back end. Bears supposedly are way more agressive at night and should be looked upon as the most dangerous at night. Apparently they do all their serious hunting for meat at night. Did you ever watch that weird guy that lived in bear country? He filmed the bears, slept within their enviorment and finally got eaten by the bears he so loved. They were Grizzly bears. Any bear that gets too close is dangerous and I'd feel a lot better if I was armed and ready.

[robertbank]

Sorry, got ya now. Yes it looks like a bullet exit wound.

Yes I read about the idiot. He appeared on the Letterman's Show once. Got his girl friend killed too. Well if the tree huggers want to play Goldie Locks so be it. All part of Darwin's modern version of Natural Selection I guess. Kind of like street racing. Anyone who wants to go petting Grizzlies has a death wish and from what I read the guy clearly did. Problem was he ended up causing the death of two Grizzlies as well which was unfortunate they deserved better.

I wish tourists to our National Parks would realize that by feeding bears along the highway you are effectively sentencing them to death as they become attuned to humans.

Take Care

Bob

[Bad luck Bill]

The guy was definitely going down, no doubt about it. He did discover some interesting things about bears but he had some serious reality issues. I'd have to disagree with you saying he got that girl killed. She was an adult and had a mind of her own, she made the final choice to set up camp in the middle of bear country. It is unfortunate that those bears had to be killed but that's all part of the game I guess.

I was down in Cherokee a decade or so back and they have a bunch of black bears penned on the side of a mountain. They offer bread and lettuce to sell people so they could feed those bears. Some of those bears did some really interesting things in order to get the attention of the people so they could be the ones to get the food. Some would do little tricks, like spin around on their hind legs a few times, then come up to the people in order to claim their treat, either fruit punch poured down their throat or some stale bread and lettuce. I watched those bears in amazment, some could explode into a run very quickly or climb a very tall tree without any limbs in less then a few seconds! It was a very good chance to watch them up close. I felt sorry that they had to live out the rest of their lives in captivity.

People who feed wild bears, like in Yellowstone (been there, it's really a great park) are idiots. They have no real conception what they are creating/doing when a bear gets used to depending on people for their survival. it is a death sentence for the bear, no doubt about it. Sometimes the forest service relocates people friendly bears way out in the bush, hoping they won't make their way back. Often times though the bears show up a few months or weeks later and have to be shot because they have become to bold and have lost their natural fear of humans. Maybe they should shoot the humans that fed them instead? Just an idea! :mrgreen:

[robertbank]

Yup but that was my point with the bears in Alaska. Two died because that idiot figured he could play with them. Had he stayed away and respected them for what they are there would have been no need to kill either bear which is what you are saying as well. A couple of years back a couple were feeding bears along the Banff highway. They ran out of food so the bears figured their arms were just another offering. Cost a bundle to ship them out to Calgary for treatment. Bears got the death sentence.

Take Care

Bob

[onceabull]

Bullshop & Waksupi: In trying to be "cute", I apparently came across as critical or at least worried ,NO WAY. I'm not going into a tangle of anything after so much as a wounded coon or bobcat,without my BOO of the moment LOADED AND COCKED..Been there with the two mentioned plus a Blackie or three, a moment too slow and you or maybe some valuable dogs will get cut up.. sorry. Onceabull, :confused:

[Bad luck Bill]

True enough Bob, we're definitely on the same trail. Too bad those people had to loose an arm and cause the execution of a couple of bears to learn why one shouldn't feed wild animals. Respect is what it's all about, respect and a little common/uncommon? sense. If I ever get the chance to see a bear close up I hope I'm in the safety of my automobile. I'd love to see one a mile or so away that isn't hungry. They can really run fast! You could have a two or three mile head start and a bear could still catch up with and eat you. I think they've been clocked at running close to 35 mph!

Thay guy seemed a little light in the loafers to me, not to mention a little crazy. I watched the DVD about him and he definitely had a few screws loose. He was out there to die, he had a death wish. The guy even talked about being mauled for Pete's sake! Said if one of the bears killed him that nobody should "take revenge" and kill the bear because it killed him. What the hell did he expect them to do? Let a bear that has tasted man-flesh to wonder around and become a real man-killer? If you ever get the chance you should check out the DVD, it's pretty interesting. It doesn't matter to much whether or not you or I agreed with the guy, it's a good way to spend an hour and a half. The film maker interviews the people from the area, some liked him and others thought the same as you and I. Not to say I had anything against the guy, I just thought he was trying to commit prime time suicide.

[Marlin Junky]

If we could get back to bear bustin' boolits for a moment, I have a question about the results of a heat treatment.

I heat treated another 150 Lee430310's cast from BHN 15 air cooled alloy last night and just got done pounding the tar out of one with a good size carpenter's hammer (not a 16oz. framing hammer but still a good size hammer).

After a couple of warm-up taps, I smacked the boolit pretty hard but not being a carpenter by trade, I was slightly off center and caught the edge of the wide meplat and a sharp edged 6 grain fracture popped off the side of the ogive. After which I hammered the boolit down to an overall length of about .32" with a few healthy centered blows without any more fractures occurring. Did I harden the boolits too much and if so, should I re-HT?

Thanks,
MJ

P.S. I should probably add that I hammered the boolit hard enough to warm it up at least 10 to 15F. I was pretty amased at that.

[Bullshop]

MJ
I think that with the off center hit all the force went into a small area and exceded the shear strength of that portion. Kinda like if you dig a boolit out of a dirt bank and you can see where half of it sheared off from hitting a rock on one side. Sometimes you will see a cut boolit from hitting heavy bone. I dont think you can shatter a ww boolit no matter how hard you made it by heat treating. The % of lead is too high and antimony too low, and if you are adding tin to your ww even more so. You can shear one sure enough as you did but I dont think you will get it to shatter unless its fired into a rock or steel plate. Even after firing into a steel plate I usualy find nickle sized plugs that bounce back a few feet from the plate if hit squairly.
BIC/BS

[Bullshop]

Bullshop & Waksupi: In trying to be "cute", I apparently came across as critical or at least worried ,NO WAY. I'm not going into a tangle of anything after so much as a wounded coon or bobcat,without my BOO of the moment LOADED AND COCKED..Been there with the two mentioned plus a Blackie or three, a moment too slow and you or maybe some valuable dogs will get cut up.. sorry. Onceabull, :confused:
Awh I knew you was only pullin my chubby little leg. Dont frett none my little feelins wasnt hurt none. Ya know if I went in there and wasnt ready to rock n roll I mighta ended up lookin like that other fella. Save on hair cuts though.
BIC/BS

[Marlin Junky]

Bullshop,

In my haste I think I may have double heat treated some of the Lee430310's. Is that a problem? Will double HT'ing make the boolits harder or brittle? There is also a possibility that somewhere along the way some commercial Lino boolits may have found their way into my batch of alloy but the Lee Hardness Tester does reveal an honest BHN of 15 or slightly less for the current air cooled stuff and my 430310's do weight right around 300 to 301 grains naked. I used to use a BHN 18 metal with 430310 which gave a weight around 295 to 296 naked but over the years I've added nuthin' but WW's (mostly the clip-on variety) to my alloy to soften it.

MJ

[Bullshop]

MJ
I dont think the double heat treat is going to change anything. One or 100 times should still come out to the same thing as long as everything is always the same temp, boolits, quench ect.
Your average of bhn-15 sounds a wee bit high to me for straight WW, mine are more like 12. You may have added enough of those lino boolits that kicked it up a bit. Cant be sure as different locations seem to produce a different average bhn#.
I dont know what a straight ww nacked boolit will weigh from my mold but I know a checked and lubed one goes about 315gn.
My molds may be just a mite different as I got two of them in six cav about ten years ago as tool room prototypes from Lee's shop man at the time.
Even if you have added enough lino to bring it up to 15 bhn I still dont think the alloy will shatter. I believe it will expand to a point then beyond that point the petals will begin to shear. This action will continue in penitration until it slows enough that it no longer expands. In my experiance to get expansion on game the hardness x 100 should not more than equal the impact velocity. In other words if you want your bhn-15 alloy to expand on flesh you would want an impact velocity of not less than 1500 fps.
This generaly holds true as long as you dont hit something harder than the boolit, like a large bone which can shear off some weight even when the velocity has dropped to below the hardness for expansion.
Hope you get that cuz I think I may have confused myself.
BIC/BS

[Marlin Junky]

Bullshop,

I read you loud and clear.

Straight clip-on WW metal registers approx. 11 to 12 BHN around these parts and I have added about 5% tin through the addition of solder which should kick up the hardness a couple points... right?... 'specially if one casts hot (800F to 850F)... right??

I don't know of many casters that cast as hot as I do but things just work so well when I cast with two molds in rotation, a Rowell#2 ladle and my Magma MasterPot set at over 800F. Oh yeah, I also add a layer of clay to retard oxidation.

Thanks for the help!
MJ

[Bad luck Bill]

I thought tin just helped the bullets fill out better in the mold and the antimony was what hardened up the bullets? I keep hearing that tin doesn't help the bullet harden and then I hear the opposite from someone else. I hope someone can answer the question with some authority and fact.

[Marlin Junky]

The best way to find out is through experimentation. That's why I bought a hardness tester. Unfortunately, I'm not currently able to invest the time and resources to qualify as an expert on boolit alloys. It is a fact that tin hardens Pb, but I don't know yet with 100% certainty if Sn will actually harden clip-on WW metal. The reason for all the question marks in my post is to qualify my remarks as suspicions. Actually, I'm just trying to find out if others have made the same observations as I have.

BTW, Elmer Keith's favorite cast bullet alloy for casting .44 wheelgun boolits was 16:1 (Pb, not WW's, to Sn) for a BHN of 11. That computes to 5.88% Sn and yields an alloy about 2.5 times the hardness of pure Pb.

As soon as I get some time and some more dirt cheap solder, I'll let you know what happens.

MJ

[Bass Ackward]

Straight clip-on WW metal registers approx. 11 to 12 BHN around these parts and I have added about 5% tin through the addition of solder which should kick up the hardness a couple points... right?... 'specially if one casts hot (800F to 850F)... right??MJ


MJ,

Tin will efficiently harden a mix up to about 10 BHN. From that point it takes way more tin to produce the same increase in hardness.

If you HT a mix with antimony, it is what performs the hardness with arsenic as the catalyst. You never want to exceed the antimony content in the mix. This is because soft spot formations will occur. WW is supposed to run 2% - 4%. These soft spot formations occur randomly in a bullet no matter how much the melt is fluxed or how the HT is performed. They will just never harden like the rest of the bullet. Or the whole batch will never get the same hardness. So you may have a 25 BHN bullet that registers 25 BHN where it was tested and it still shoot and act weird. Log that in the back of your mind. I had it once and it never showed at reasonable pressures, but will drive you crazy if you put pressure behind it.

[Bad luck Bill]

I guess I should have thought things through a little more. Pure leads runs about 5 but when you add tin...20:1, you get Lyman #2 with is around 12 or 13, right? So WW's heat treated or water quenched can/should run twice that after given time to harden up a bit. Don't know why I forgot that tin does offer more hardness, but only up to a point, correct? The more tin added won't keep on uping the BHN number though, will it? The velocities and pressures I generally shoot at don't figure in as much compared to what some you guys are doing so it isn't as much as a factor for me as it is for you. Water qunched are working pretty good for me at this point, even with relatively warm loads in my .357.

[454PB]

Tin is too valuable to be used as an alloy hardener. It should be used to provide better mould fill out, and that only requires 5% maximimum. I use less than that and get good results. The hardening effect is so small it's barely worth considering. I have not measured 20:1, but I'll bet it's only 6 or 7 BHN. The most cost effective way to harden other than heat treating is by using linotype (or one of the other type alloys), or buy antimony pre-alloyed 50/50 with Pb. Antimony in it's pure form is difficult to work with and quite toxic.

Back when Elmer began casting, tin was relatively cheap, and wheelweights didn't exist.

[wills]

http://www.pnjresources.com/Hardness%20of%20Lead%20Alloys.htm
hardness of lead alloy

[Bullshop]

Tin is too valuable to be used as an alloy hardener. It should be used to provide better mould fill out, and that only requires 5% maximimum. I use less than that and get good results. The hardening effect is so small it's barely worth considering. I have not measured 20:1, but I'll bet it's only 6 or 7 BHN. The most cost effective way to harden other than heat treating is by using linotype (or one of the other type alloys), or buy antimony pre-alloyed 50/50 with Pb. Antimony in it's pure form is difficult to work with and quite toxic.

Back when Elmer began casting, tin was relatively cheap, and wheelweights didn't exist.
454pb
Remember when you alloy harden only your alloy becomes more brittle. The higher the antimony content the more brittle the alloy will be. If you HT a low anyimony alloy you dont get the brittle shattering effect.
MJ is looking for a bear stopper alloy so I would stay away from any high antimony alloy like lino. The way to add ductillity to the alloy to prevent shattering but still be very hard would be to add pure lead to the WW with some additional arsinik via adding a small ammount of shot then heat treat.
BIC/BS

[Bullshop]

http://www.pnjresources.com/Hardness%20of%20Lead%20Alloys.htm
hardness of lead alloy
Wills
That looks like the chart that comes with every new Lyman mold. Its a good reference to see the differences between alloy hardness for sure but I am not sure how accurate the actual figures are. The one major difference I see is the bhn - 9 for WW. For as long as I have been testing I have never had a batch of WW test that low.
Also it does nothing to indicate the potencial hardness of alloys by heat treating.
BIC/BS

[Marlin Junky]

Here's my perspective... I'm trying to do this hobby as cheaply and simply as possible. I haven't acquired solder in years because the discount plumbers supply outfit is long gone. However, I have collected over a quarter ton of free wheel weights during the last 5 years and to turn them into rifle boolits I'd like to have some tin. How much tin I don't know for sure at this point but I will figure it out. I've heard ad nauseam throughout the decades that 2% to 3% tin is all one needs for good fill-out and anything more is wasted, which is probably true from a "fill-out" perspective. Lyman's #2 alloy which was around durning Elmer's time had 5% tin and 5% antimony for a BHN of 15. I've also heard as far back as the '70s that wheel weights contain 4% antimony. I'm also pretty darn sure that the buckets of clip-on WW's I've collected over the last 5 years contain harder lead than those I collected when I was a kid. I've seen much more unwanted solder lying around than Linotype in my life time and IMO, the latter is too expensive and brittle. I seriously doubt Elmer pre-dated WW's but I'll bet WW's in the '30s were softer than today's WW's while type metal was plentiful.

So anyway, if I can add 1 to 2 pounds of cheap solder (depending on Sn content) to every 20 pounds of free WW's in order to raise the BHN from 11 or 12 to 14 or 15 while getting great mold cavity fill-out, that sounds good to me. If I need a harder boolit, I'll simply oven heat treat and dunk 'em in ice water.

MJ

[Bad luck Bill]

Is there any spesific reason you heat treat in the oven instead of water quenching your bullets? I'm just curious as I have been water dropping mine thus far (my oven is broken!). The water quenching seems to be hardening the WW lead up very nicely though I have no idea whether or not it would shatter on hitting something very hard. I haven't needed to add any tin at this point (though I have in the past and didn't really notice much of a difference). If the extra tin would help harden the mix then maybe I would, or better yet maybe it might be more cost effective to by a bag of shot for hardening purposes.

[Bass Ackward]

Up until the 40s antimony was thought to be undesireable in bullet material because of it's abrasive nature. Many professional casters were warned by customers NOT to use it. WW from the 60s were 9% antimony and about 20 BHN as I used up my last batch of these a couple of years ago.

In the mid to late 70s there was consolidation in the smelting industry and by the end of that decade, antimony content dropped to about 4% - 6% nationally. Today, WW is supposed to vary from 2% to 4% but how do you know what yours is for sure? I suspect the prevalence of aluminum wheels means more pure lead stick ons. So I sort vigerously. I limit tin to 2% just to be safe.

[Marlin Junky]

The way I see it is that solder added to WW's performs two functions. It enables fill-out and if my hypothesis is correct, allows modern lead-based WW's to approach Lyman#2 hardness when boolits are air cooled.

I've decided to oven HT because it provides more consistent boolit-to-boolit hardness than water dropping and with a deep fryer basket and a bucket of ice water next to the oven I can HT 150 to 200 big bore boolits at once. I had a real eye opening experience a couple weeks ago when I ran my first batch of oven heat treated boolits through the chronograph. My first 12 round string of Lee430310's shot from my .444 produced an average velocity of 2131 fps with an extreme spread of only 25 fps. Usually, I can only hope for less than a 40 fps spread.

I oven heat treated a lot when I was younger and feel I can make more good boolits in the limited space I have now without a bucket of water for quenching. Currently, I do use a pan of water with a kitchen sponge in it, placed to the left of my drop area, to keep Lee molds from over heating.

MJ

[Bad luck Bill]

MJ,

When heat treating in the oven do you stand the bullets up or just haphazardly throw them on a cookie sheet or something? I've hear that 430 degree is a good tempeture to start with as ovens vary, too hot and the bullets could droop a bit or melt. What temp do you anneal them at? If I knew where to get tin for cheap I'd probably use it more in my alloy, but at around $6 bucks per 1/2lbs. it's a little pricey! I've found the solder that is 95% tin and 5% antimony, so I guess the antimony content also helps harden the bullets up too.

[waksupi]

One overlooked source of solder. Hit the yard and garage sales. Amoung other things, I find rolls of solder, for anywhere from the free box, on up to maybe a buck. Now that I have told you this, stay out of my garage sale territory!:Fire:

[Bad luck Bill]

Thanks for the tip!

[Bullshop]

Bad luck Bill
There was a thread on here a couple months ago where someone gave a source of tin for $6.00 per lb.
I have been getting mine from John Walters of Walters wads for $7.00
It comes in 1 lb extruded bars. I have bought from elswere in the past in ingot form but felt it was not pure tin. The tin I get from John looks, sounds, smells, and when alloyed acts like pure tin. In case your wondering I used to work in a junk yard. Yes if you bend a bar of pure tin next to your ear you will hear a crackling sound and it will give off a lemony smell.
BIC/BS

[Bad luck Bill]

Thats pretty interesting Bull, never knew that tin emitted a lemoney smell and crackled when you bent it! How much does Midway sell their tin for? I think it is in extruded bars also but I forgot the price. Seven bucks a pound is a lot better than twelve bucks a pound, that's for sure! I've still got quite bit to learn about casting. It may seem simple on the surface but there is a lot of things one can learn about it.

[Marlin Junky]

Bill,

Try estate sales... plumbers don't live forever.

My oven is only a few years old and has a digital thermostat that's supposed to be accurate within +/- 5F so I set it on 450F and while it's heating up, I fill an old deep fry basket from one of those ol' Dutch Ovens (real popular 30 years ago) with boolits. The big bores work well with the basket and don't topple over when I pull the basket out of the oven like I'm guessing the .30's probably would. It's possible the small bore boolits might even fall through the holes in the basket but the .40+ cal. boolits work fine. For long .30 boolits I'll probably get a block of aluminum at the local salvage yard and give the ol' drill press a work out even though the thought of drilling 100 to 200 holes in a block of aluminum sounds like a real yawner of an afternoon. Then I gotta put a handle on it!

MJ

[Bad luck Bill]

Sounds like a lot of work to me...If there ain't no difference between water quenching and annealing in the oven I think I'll stick to water quenching, considering you have to hit the oven treated bullets with water anyway. So...is there a difference....Oh yeah! you mentioned that the heat treated were supposedly more uniform in hardness where as the quenched bullets tend to have some soft spots...but... can a person/gun really tell the difference between the two? An Older friend of mine, around 64 years old, was surprised at the hardness of my bullets (He stopped using wheel weights long ago, didn't like the newer ones and claimed you never knew what was in them) but after checking mine out I think he may have changed his mind. There's no way to put a mark on them with a thumb nail, that's for sure!

BLB.

[Marlin Junky]

Whatever works best for you Bill.

Personally, I get going at a pretty good clip when casting with two iron molds in rotation and don't want to worry about water splashing up into the mold cavities when water dropping. To maintain my production rate in my current casting area, I would need to replace my drop pad with a shallow pan of water which would mean I'd be opening the molds probably less that half a foot over the water. Could there be a possibility of water making its way into the cavities?... could be. When I was a limber kid I would fill the mold and reach out and to the side to water drop into a plastic bucket below the table top which added a couple more seconds to my cycle. Back then though, I could only dream about casting 200 quality boolits per hour and I can always do something else while the boolits are cooking in the oven.

I think I've convinced myself to make a rack for HT'ing .31" boolits!

Regards,
MJ

[45stomp]

From my somewhat limited experience.....and also from the experience of others I respect, high velocity and cast boolits and impact on living things can get very complicated. Slow the cast boolit down and they become more predictable. Millions of buffalo were slain with soft cast boolits at slow velocities........heavy slow and soft is a killer. If you want 2000FPS then maybe a jacketed bullet is what you need......or a solid copper hollowpoint.
Pure ww waterdropped 325grain boolits at 1600FPS out of my 45colt levergun will penetrate through any skull I point it at.......everytime........most likely acww would as well at 1600 or slower.
One mistake that seems to be common is using boolits that are to hard to expand well but pushing them fast enough to deform the noses on impact slightly and cause deflections.......they will not act like a good solid but cannot expand like a true softnose either.........too middle of the road. I think we need to decide whether we want expansion or not and then choose a boolit temper and velocity to suite. For example if I want a light (relatively) boolit to penetrate like a jacketed solid from my 44mag revolver......then I can use HTWW and keep the velocity down around 1200FPS. If, on the other hand I want an expanding boolit for the 30-30winchester, then ACWW will work well at 1800 or so. I think we need to avoid BHN and velocity combinations that will not be compatable, either go for pure solid performance or proper expansion not somewhere inbetween.
Just my .02
Stomp:drinks:

[Bad luck Bill]

I don't think that's bad advice at all. A soft bullet can be driven to very high speeds if the person knows what he's doing, i.e., knows the bore of his gun and the principals involved.Didn't Elmer Keith use fairly soft bullets for his .44 mag? Most of those were travelling at around 1200 FPS and he didn't complain about penetration or leading. At the same time though, there is a need for a harder bullet, and HTWW will fit that bill also, if done correctly, you just have to experiment a little. Lead can be driven at very hi-speeds and be very effective. It's all in the knowledge of the caster/reloader and what he wants the bullet to do. That means using specific powders and different alloys for the intended effect he is looking for. Way back when, buffalo hunters were using pure lead and driving those bullets pretty fast, taking down large game without a problem.

[robertbank]

I water quench my 9MM and .45acp bullets by simply dropping them into a large plastic pail filled about 3/4 full. Reduces the splash of the bullets. I use two four cavity molds and it seem to work OK. Usually start with a cover of ice cubes in the water as well.

By using a larger bucket and filling 3/4 full you can drop the bullets without fear of having the water splash all over the place.

Take Care

Bob

[405 WCF]

I havent read all posts, but I have taken some moose with that bullet.
Cast the bullet out of pure ww and water quench.
Load with 46 grs Vihtavuori N130 and you will have a load that leave your barrel at 2130-2150 fps.
That load will harvest the bear for you!

Good luck.
Olle

[BAGTIC]

I usually test my HTWW bullets the next day. BHN is 24-26.

The hotter and longer the heat treatment the greater the potential hardness but, likewise, the greater the risk for warping or slumping.

[StarMetal]

Alot of people believe that sizing may only soften the surface not the whole mass all the way through. Some people also believe, that because hardening takes aging, that sizing immediately after treating does no harm.

Joe

[Marlin Junky]

405 WCF,

46 grains of N130 sounds like a hot load. How much velocity do you loose by burning 45 grains? I'm getting 2130 fps from the Outfitter with 46 grains of Re7 with a HT'd 430310 at 300 to 301 grains naked. 46 grains of Re7 seems like a max. load to me.

MJ

[wills]

An article regarding penetration
http://www.garrettcartridges.com/penetration.asp

[Bad luck Bill]

Pretty interesting article there. The faster a bullet is going the quicker it stops and the less penetration, never would have thought that? There was a "sweet spot" as to barrel twist and velocity which the article stated. Does anyone have any practical experience that refutes the balistics in this article?

BLB.

[DLCTEX]

RE: article on penetration: Barring greater expansion of the bullet, this flies in the face of all reason and science as I understand it. I will have to see a lot more proof before I can swallow this.

[felix]

Dale, the article is indeed correct. I've played around with penetrating steel plates back during my much younger years. Shooting various pistols at about 50 yards, all loaded with the same velocity (approx), the smaller diameter boolits did penetrate cleaner. In fact, the 41 mag was the leader of the pack. With two different guns, too. Why? Think of the density of the material being shot through. It has microscopic holes throughout, both mechanically and electronically.
We need a boolit diameter with enough weight to go through those holes, by opening up a path. Also, think of a straw going through a telephone pole during a wind storm. It takes TIME to open up the holes. ... felix

[robertbank]

Great read, thanks.

Take Care

Bob

[StarMetal]

Dunno about that. We all know, or should know, that a bullet only has as much energy that is put into it with the load and rifle it's fired from. What I'm saying is that once it's fired there is no more energy propelling it then what was given to it by the powder when it was fired. Take a bullet proof vest for example, it stops a bullet because it extracts all the energy out of it till it stops. Thereason a knife or ice pick can penetrate most vests is because of a few important reasons, one, they have a sharp point to weave through the material, two their velocity is low and slow, and three, the most important, they have a continuous energy thrust.....the weight and force of the hand and arm, and body in some instances, that is propelling it.

In that article they tested wet newsprint. That's alot different then body tissue with it's various textures and bones, liquids, and voids. With higher velocity also comes more hydraulic shot to the animal and I assume here we're talking about shooting animals, not armor plated vehicles or barriers.

Here's another good article to read: http://www.frfrogspad.com/power.htm

Joe

[StarMetal]

For those interested here's a good article all about "bullet proof vest or body armor": w.sofmag.com/news/permalink1/2006/7/16/1206332814270.html?section=list

Joe

[405 WCF]

46 grs N-130 is a soft load.
I have been much higher, but you dont need to go higher.
Yesterday a friend in the south of Sweden killed a big hog with my 350 gr MM bullet infront of a charge of 43 gr N-130.
That load leave his Outfitter barrel with 2000 fps.
He shot the hog with a broadside shot, just behind the shoulder, and the hog dropped instantly.
The alloy of that bullet is aircooled WW + 5 % tin.

[Marlin Junky]

405 WCF,

Please post the BHN of the ACWW (air-cooled wheel weight) metal alloyed with 5% tin.

Thank you!
MJ

P.S. How do you guys like your Marlin Outfitters?

[405 WCF]

I have never checked how hard the bullet is on the brinnel scale.
But I guess that it is around 14-16 BHN.

[DLCTEX]

Felix: It has been proven that straws are not driven through telephone poles during tornadoes, but rather the pole is twisted and bent causing cracks to open then closing on the straw already in the crack. Smaller diameter, maybe a point, but this article refers to same size bullets, different velocities, giving the edge to slower bullets.

[DLCTEX]

Upon rereading the article on bullet penetration, the author makes no statement about the bullet expanding more or not. I would think the reason for less penetration would be expansion of the bullet, same as a varmit type bullet compared to a big game bullet, expansion of the bullet retards penetration. Therefore we have the science behind partition, a frame, barnes, and full metal jacket solids, which is limiting expansion. If you drive the bullet faster, you will have less penetration UNLESS the bullet is harder. Same reason a parachute works.

[ppro]

I believe the author is talking about solids....comparatively.

Also, there are other variables that enter this mix, which support what Garrett is saying and I have read of this more than once. There is more information on this, and I can try to dig it up.

Unfortunately, I cataloged it away in the brain but didn't bother to save much data. So, I will have to look around.

If I want more penetration with solids (handguns for example) I will increase bullet weight (and stay in the 1200 to 1300 max fps range. This is a good shootable range anyway...and easier to match bullets to the velocities and all that.


Paul

[ppro]

Here's a link to some of the information. The variable is cavitation effect and cavitation diameter etc. It's the terminal ballistics data page, I believe.

http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/wounding.html

enjoy

Paul

[ppro]

A couple quotes on the topic of penetration from sections of the above link:

In theoretical terms, a projectile creates a cavity which is proportional to its kinetic energy (actually, the permanent volume of the cavity may be considerably less than the theoretical expected volume). The cavity extends radially (what I term cavitation) and along the path of the bullet (penetration). The more it cavitates, the less deeply it penetrates. High velocity can have a detrimental effect upon penetration in a fluid, due to the "splash effect". It can destroy the bullet or cause it to create an enormous cavity without penetrating (which is not necessarily undesirable in certain tactical situations).

Also: The dynamic pressure at 3000 fps is more than twice that at 2000 fps.


Paul

[Marlin Junky]

If anyone remembers the point of this post... I ended up with a BHN of 21. From 14-15 to 21 after heat treating. Was it worth it? I Dunno.

ppro,

I glanced at your website and appreciate your efforts. Unfortunately, I don't have the time right now to study your analysis. I've contested for years that we need a formula incorporating mass, velocity AND sectional density for a better description of wounding ability. However, there are several other very important variables like bullet construction/hardness, shot placement, tissue/bone density (or lack thereof), etc that preclude any simple formula to compare the wide range of cartridges that exist today. That's probably while most of us don't really place much emphasis on models and try to use our good old fashioned common sense.

MJ

[StarMetal]

Maybe Felix was talking about this:

Even the possibility to transform ordinary matter to dark matter molecular length scales would have dramatic implications. For instance, it would give substantial support for the vision that the magnetic body of the Earth's magnetic field serves as a circuitry allowing the transfer of bio-molecules in the length scale of magnetosphere (see here (http://www.helsinki.fi/%7Ematpitka/cbookII.html#prebio)).
The finding that rotating magnetic systems (http://www.americanantigravity.com/godinroschin.html) generate magnetic walls and the hypothesis that these walls carry dark matter provide good clues about how to achieve this kind of phase transition. The model for plasmoids as primitive life-forms involving rotating magnetic fields relies on this finding. Plasmoids themselves might be able to transform to dark matter. Shoulders discovered the existence of micron sized negatively charged clusters containing about 1011 electrons and about 106 ions which he reports to be able to transform to a invisible form as reported in the book of Moray B. King (http://pandora108.bizhosting.com/book_quest_for_zero_point_energy_by_moray_b_king.h tml).
The possibility to perform this transformation for macroscopic objects would have even more dramatic implications since the objects in dark matter phase would pass through ordinary solids without any difficulty. The first implications that come in mind relate to technology (manipulation of properties of condensed matter from interior), to medicine (many-sheeted surgical operations), and research of large condensed matter systems (say the study of Earth's interior).
1. Are macroscopic visible-to-dark phase transitions possible?

One can wonder whether visible-to-dark phase transition could occur also spontaneously in macroscopic length scales. There is indeed quite a lot of documented evidence.
Hutchison effect (http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Thinktank/8863/HEffect1.html) involves a catastrophic fracture of metal samples when posed to a radiation. Also physical objects of different composition were reported to become inexplicably embedded in each other once these objects were radiated. For a couple of years I discussed a model for this effect here (http://www.helsinki.fi/%7Ematpitka/padtgd.html#ano). The phase transition involved with this model was not identified as ordinary-to-dark matter transformation but the basic many-sheeted mechanism inducing the temporary transparency is essentially the same.
The appearance of human made artifacts in places where they should not occur is this kind of effect. There are a lot of reports for this kind of artifacts (see this (http://www.delusionresistance.org/creation/antedeluvian_finds.html), this (http://farshores.org/tp_relic.htm) , and this (http://www.rense.com/general66/solid.htm)). These reports can of course be claimed to be just folklore. On the other hand, many of these artifacts are in museums and precise reports about where they were found exist. There are also reports about this kind of objects in journals like Scientific American (http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/moa/pageviewer?frames=1&cite=&coll=moa&view=50&root=%2Fmoa%2Fscia%2Fscia0007%2F&tif=00385.TIF&pagenum=298). Hence one must consider seriously the possibility that the stories about artifacts in wrong place are real. Creationists have used these artifacts as an objection against Darwinian view about evolution and as a support that the actual age of universe is not more than what Bible tells. This kind of explanation is very difficult to take seriously by anyone with basic knowledge about science. T. Twietmeyer (http://www.rense.com/general66/solid.htm) has proposed that a transformation of the ordinary matter to a form in which it can pass ordinary matter is involved with these phenomena. Man-made objects are reported to appear in so old archeological layers that even our species did not yet exist. The ages of the artifacts discussed in previous references , if really the same as that of environment, vary from 50.000 years up to 300 million years. Artifacts have been found inside rock, inside geods which are small spherical stones with hollow interiors lined with crystals, and inside coal. Examples of artifacts found are an object which seems to be a candlestick holder (http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/moa/pageviewer?frames=1&cite=&coll=moa&view=50&root=%2Fmoa%2Fscia%2Fscia0007%2F&tif=00385.TIF&pagenum=298), "coin", nails, screw, an object which resembles spark plug (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/coso.html), a strange cube like object made of iron, metal nodules, gold chain, iron pot, brass bell, etc... Tornadoes (http://www.rense.com/general66/solid.htm) are reported to induce transfer of human made artifacts to places where they should not exist. A piece of field straw penetrating through a window pane without breaking it has been reported. According to second report, a rubber tire which was not cut appeared after tornado surrounding a telephone pole that had a wooden crossbar and power lines on top. This kind of topological impossibilities would be a clear-cut signature of the ordinary-to-dark phase transition. Tornadoes are indeed basic examples of primitive living systems involving rotating magnetic and Z0 magnetic fields and thus generating magnetic walls or more general rotating flux quanta containing dark matter. 2. TGD based explanation for artifacts in wrong places

The TGD based mechanism explaining the findings would be the transformation of the artifact to dark matter phase (its mass would not be changed appreciably) and subsequent free fall in the gravitational field of Earth in the case that the object still feeds its gravitational flux to the space-time sheet carrying Earth's gravitational field. The object would quite literally be swallowed by Earth. For a vanishing initial velocity the time t spent in the dark matter phase would relate the depth h at which the object falls freely as t=(2h/g)1/2, g≈ 10 m/s2. From the typical depths at which the objects are found, one can conclude that the time spent in dark matter phase is measured in seconds. A possible explanation is that the rotation period of magnetic field creating the dark matter phase is usually not longer than this.
Macroscopic quantities of dark matter could result in catastrophic events like fractures. The potential wall hindering the formation of the fracture might be overcome by the formation of dark matter phase in the immediate vicinity of the fracture. Nuclear transmutations should occur routinely in dark matter phase and there is indeed evidence for the transmutations in living matter (http://www.rexresearch.com/kervran/kervran.htm), in cold fusion and fracto-fusion (http://home.netcom.com/%7Estorms2/review8.html). The long lasting emission of light from fractures (earth lights observed in the lines of seismic activity) might be identifiable as coherent beams of dark photons decaying to ordinary photons. UFOs might have interpretation as plasmoids.
The observed difficult-to-understand properties of lightnings might find explanation if lightning track is in dark matter phase so that charged particles are in effectively super-conducting phase so that electrons can accelerate to relativistic velocities. This suggests that electric discharges in high voltage could produce dark matter (perhaps this is one function of nerve pulse). Ball lightnings might induced generation of dark matter. To sum up, it is very easy to get scientific respect by claiming that all these reports are cooked up by swindlers and taken seriously by crackpots. I however dare hope that some ingenious experimentalist would see the trouble of finding whether TGD explanation is correct by trying to develop a method of inducing the phase transition to dark matter along the lines proposed.

Joe

[Marlin Junky]

What the heck does this have to do with cast boolits?

MJ

[ppro]

Marlin Junky

I think your quote answered your question:
That's probably while most of us don't really place much emphasis on models and try to use our good old fashioned common sense.

If the trouble to heat treat matters, then it's worth the trouble. If you get better accuracy, less leading, or performance desired on the target....then it matters. If by comparison, you don't have gains somewhere that warrant the time and trouble. Then the heat treating doesn't matter.

Then there's the issue of changes in hardness by the time you get around to the intended shooting application and all that.......

If I could get the performance I wanted WITHOUT heat treating, that would certainly be my first choice. A common sense sort of thing, but your going to have to be the judge of that.

Paul

[ppro]

StarMetal
I think your going to have to ask Felix THAT question....

Paul

[StarMetal]

What the heck does this have to do with cast boolits?

MJ

What it has to do is Felix is way over most of your heads.

Joe

[Bullshop]

Man I dont know what language you guys are talkin but I musta missed school that day.
To get back to the point of this thread about bear stopper alloy. I said I felt ACWW would be just fine. A case in point, I once shot a caribou with B00 my old Marlin 45/70. She was loaded with a 500gn paper patch at 1550 fps. They were in a 30/1 alloy so very soft. I wanted to see of I could drive one through length wise so waited for a head on shot. I was hunting the north slope of the brooks range so there was no trees. I sat up on a mound to glass and saw a cow comming straight at me. When she was about 60 yards or so she stopped and looked up at me. She spread her front leggs and dropped her head a bit to try and get a good look at me. When she did her head was centerd with her body. I shoot B00 with a peep sight and the Marlin beed front. When the beed was on her head I touched off. That boolit hit dead centar in her fore head and made a loud cccrrrraaaaccckkk when it hit. It drilled a perfect 45 hole going in and turned the brain to mush. When it hit the back of the skull it turned downward and blew out the jaw hinge on one side then clipped off one of her front leggs just below the knee. Maybe a hard boolit would have stayed a true cource, cant know for sure. Anyways a real soft boolit to the skull and it didnt glance off. I think hard or soft dont make much difference eather one may or may not deflect at a poor angle. Still I think 99.9 % of the time an acww boolit will not deflect off any bear head. A harder bhn wont hurt anything but I just dont think its gona make any difference at least not at the velocities we generaly work with with boolits say 2000 fps or less.
BIC/BS

[felix]

Joe, I am proud of you for researching this kind of technology. One of these days some young person with enough drive will show how this "dark matter", or whatever it will be termed later, comes into being as an energy mass, passes through a maze of other energy waves (masses), and reconstitutes itself at some other location. (Yes, Scotty, assuming you are there, you can beam me up to the Pearly Gates anytime you wish.) It always tickles me pink to think that J. Verne dreampt up a story about atomic energy, and 100 years later it became fact. Leave it to the Lord to inspire (instill a dream to?) the right folk(s) at the right time for ANYTHING He desires to happen. P.S. String theory has a few holes at the present time. In other words, there is no math that can follow through as of yet. ... felix

Yeah, we're diving off into the deep end, here. ... felix

[MT Gianni]

Joe, That appears to be the best answer to the fliers in my groups that I have ever heard. Gianni.

[StarMetal]

Sorry to hijack the thread to a different direction, but Felix stirs my brain. You really have to think hard about what he's talking about alot of times. Hey Felix, it's an honor to make you proud of me, really it is.

Gianni,

That stuff is really spooky if you ask me.

Joe

[waksupi]

String theory! Absolutely fascinating! If it can be related to cast bullets, we will find ALL the answers! I wish Albert was still alive. I would have liked to had his take on it!

[StarMetal]

See, Felix is still baffling you guys...go here to see what he was talking about this last time:

http://superstringtheory.com/

Joe

[robertbank]

Well I don't know much about electrical impulse and matter but I do know there isn't a bear alive who is going to do much running around with 200 gr LSWC rattling around in his cranium. I'm with my Alaskan friend on that one. You can take that one to the bank.

Take Care

Bob

[MT Gianni]

Joe just trying to bring the topic relating to shooting. It is fascinating what I can understand of it. I have long been of the belief that all I was taught in school wasn't necesarally so. Gianni.

[StarMetal]

Mt Gianni,

I know what you mean about what we learned in school. Example, we learned there were nine planets in our solar system. Well I'm sure you've heard about two-three weeks ago a group of prominate astrononers got together and officially declared that Plato isn't a planet!!! Maybe those star boys ought to take up cast boolit shooting (heh on topic).

Joe

[Marlin Junky]

Paul,

I've got a lot going on outside of work and the loading bench and completely forgot about the great stat's I was boasting about earlier... thanks for reminding me! I need to start work on a heat treating rack for .30 caliber match boolits when I return from vacation!

As far as Dark Matter is concerned... scientific theory and speculation is fun and interesting but why not start a new thread so those of us who don't have lots of time to kill can find what were looking for. I suppose I shouldn't complain though, this thread has been hijacked more than once and I still learned something about heat treating boolits... carry on Poindexter :-D

MJ

P.S. BTW, the new designation for Pluto, not Plato, is a "Dwarf Planet"... now I'm officially guilt of off-topic content as well!

[ppro]

All I know, is I have to go qualify Saturday, and If I don't shoot 100% on the ICE qualification, I AM going to blame it on string theory and dark matter ! As in, a bad shot string !

Paul :Fire:

[versifier]

That might work, as long as there's no ring around Uranus. :mrgreen:

[StarMetal]

Versifier is right, if there's a ring around Uranus the bear will smell you.

Joe[smilie=1:

[obssd1958]

Thanks guys... I needed a good laugh today!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[smilie=l: :bigsmyl2: [smilie=l:


Don

[robertbank]

Run into a female Grizzly witha cub at close quarters and you will find upon close inspection that you have a ring around Uranus along with all it's planets.

Take Care

Bob

[Finn45]

In that kind of a situation it would be very good to have - in addition to appropriate caliber and appropriate boolits not to mention proper alloy - a rifle without front sight, with rounded muzzle and extremely stream lined rear sight system.