Hornet or Triple Duece?

[Marlin Junky]

Which would be a better varmint rifle, the Hornet or .222? I want something with more authority than a .22 Magnum that has the potential to drive tacks with cast but is not tied to the amount of lead, powder and noise of my 30-30's. Can .22's be cast so they are effective on coyotes out to about 150 yards or so?

MJ

[Doc Highwall]

222 it has a quicker twist and a long neck.

[Larry Gibson]

The 222 most often has a 14" twist which is very good for cast bullets up through 60 gr (fully dressed). I had a very nice M788 with a 24" barrel once that shot the Lyman 225415 (1.5" just about all day long) very well at 2350 fps. I never shot a coyote with it but I did shoot numerous rock chucks out to 150-200 yards with it. It did fine on those. However, coyotes have a tenacious hold on life and can go quite a ways with severe body damage so the shot placement must be good with a cast bullet that small. I have 3 .22 Hornets with twists of 12, 14 and 16". I've not worked with it a lot but so far I'm getting pretty much the same performance and accuracy out of the 14" twist Hornet (Savage M40). While I sure do like my .22 Hornets and my .223s I sure do wish I still had that M788. My opinion is the .222 with a 14" twist is about the best .22 cal CF for cast bullets as it has the right case capcity of slower powders, the longer neck to hold the cast bullet with all lube grooves inside the neck and is noted for accuracy. I would go with a 14" twist and 24 - 26" barrel.

Larry Gibson

[Marlin Junky]

How fast is the .222's usual twist? If the twist is too fast and the grooves too shallow, it may not shoot cast accurately much past .22M velocities.

MJ

P.S. Thanks Larry. I guess your post was posted while I was writing mine.

[35remington]

Yes, they can, at least if you keep the velocity up and don't use a hard roundnose bullet like the 225438 that's sorta upset and tissue damage challenged as the velocities drop off.

Given the finickyness of Hornets with cast sometimes (most likely due to the dimensional tolerances of some Hornet chambers and not having anything to do with the suitability of the cartridge itself, which should be just fine) the 222 is more likely to work out of the gate, but the Deuce can have issues too.

My friend's Contender barrel in .222 has an abrupt throat and it's going to take some wearing in of the leade before it will shoot cast. No dice so far, but it should get better, with some use. So it's easy to condemn the cartridge rather than the throat, where the blame should be really credited.

Still, given the .222's ability to heave cast bullets at lower pressures while still getting the velocity needed to make a cast bullet work at 150 yards, that's how I'd go if you want to make a coyote rifle out of it with cast. Of course you could just shoot jacketed at high speed in the Hornet when it came time to shoot a coyote and leave the lead bullets stuff to the smaller critters. I guess it depends upon whether you think you need 2000 fps or 2600 fps with a .22 cast bullet to drop a coyote at 150 yards. I'd want the higher speed myself.

That's on the upper end of what cast can do, but then you know that already!

It would be somewhat nonsensical to have a throat cut just for cast bullets in a .222 given how well it shoots jacketed bullets, but I'd sure try to specify a throat that wouldn't be unfriendly to cast bullets if I was having a custom one made up.

[Cactus Farmer]

Get 'em both! Have both and I would have to flip a coin, standard 22 Hornet,K 22 Hornet is good on P=dogs out to 200 on a good day with 225415. 222 is good a bit farther with the Loverin bullet that weighs "58?" grns. 222 is louder,Hornet is picky about powder charges. I have to weigh 'em all to ring out the best accuracy. 222 is less picky about exact loads. Throats are a consideration too. It seems they are all a little different. Hornets like 2400,222 likes Reloader 7.
I spotted a Remington 799 in 222 the other day.$450.00. I hope it's gone when I look again........

[Marlin Junky]

It would be somewhat nonsensical to have a throat cut just for cast bullets in a .222 given how well it shoots jacketed bullets, but I'd sure try to specify a throat that wouldn't be unfriendly to cast bullets if I was having a custom one made up.

35R,

I'm looking for a factory rifle right now. If I was going the custom route, I might put a .25 cal. barrel on a small action and give the John Wooters wildcat a try (.25 Copperhead AKA .25-222).

MJ

[Marlin Junky]

Get 'em both!

Given the effort it takes to gear up a dedicated cast boolit rifle, I'll select the best one for the time being. Thanks for the input though. Unfortunately, I don't think 415 is currently available from the usual sources anymore.

MJ

Oops, sorry... I guess I was thinking about a different mold. Midway is currently offering 225415.

[Cactus Farmer]

I got mine here. Keep an eye out in the "For Sale" section. I had use of a four cavity 225415 years ago and tried to wear it out. Finally getting low so i started looking, and found a 2 cavity on this forum. One cavity is reworked to a hollow point, I didn't segregate the boolits last time and they shoot well. As of now it will be easy to sort these,one is solid one HP. Casting will be slower but I was informed that the HP will make vapor of vermin.......hehehehe
Some one here will surely have a 415 that you can aquire. An awsome mold for all 22 cals. I even shot some in a 22-250 with 12 grns 2400. Crows explode quite well. Ball of black feathers is as close as I can descibe it. Spectators are amazed!

[DLCTEX]

I have both a 22 Hornet (Ruger 77/22) and a 222 (722 Rem) and find the 222 easier to get to shoot well with cast. If I had to give one up, it would be the Hornet, but I'm keeping both.:mrgreen:

[Hickory]

The 2-2-2 is for you-you-you
You can do more with the 222 than you can with the Hornet.

[StarMetal]

35remington gave some very good advice. First I'd like to say don't worry about the 222 having too fast a twist for any cast velocity. I have a CZ 527 Hornet. It is finicky and but I've found a bullet that shoots very well in it at good Hornet velocities and that is the 55 grain NEI mold. I also have a mold from BaBore and haven't run it out yet, but so far it shows promise.

I can say this, with that 55 grain bullet it's like I'm just popping the price of the primer. Very cheap to shoot. I'm using 12 grains of 4198.

[JeffinNZ]

My old CZ Hornet was never picky with loads.

If I did ever get another Hornet the first thing I would do is 'K' the chamber to create a decent shoulder. Increases case life.

[7br]

You also might look at the RCBS 22-55 mold. It works pretty well in my hornet.

[Cactus Farmer]

My old CZ Hornet was never picky with loads.

If I did ever get another Hornet the first thing I would do is 'K' the chamber to create a decent shoulder. Increases case life.

My first Hornet was "K"ed before I fired the first shot. And you are soooo right,cases last forever.

[Marlin Junky]

I have both a 22 Hornet (Ruger 77/22) and a 222 (722 Rem) and find the 222 easier to get to shoot well with cast. If I had to give one up, it would be the Hornet, but I'm keeping both.:mrgreen:

Meaning no disrespect to Ruger owners', but I would say that's no fault of the Hornet's design, rather the Ruger's barrel.

MJ

[rhbrink]

Go with the 222 you can always load down to Hornet levels, just a great cartridge!

[Marlin Junky]

I even shot some in a 22-250 with 12 grns 2400. Crows explode quite well. Ball of black feathers is as close as I can descibe it. Spectators are amazed!

Cactus Farmer,

Did you ever shoot that load for group at say 100 yards?

MJ

[Rocky Raab]

I don't cast any bullets that small, but I own a Hornet, a Bee, a Fireball and a couple 223s - and just sold a 219 Zipper. Oddly, I've never owned a deuce.

While my Hornet would be the last gun in my safe if I HAD to sell off everything else, I think the Fireball just might be the ideal little do-it-all varminter. I can throttle the cute little booger back to 22 Short speeds, or I can lean on it a bit and get darn near full 223 performance. And everything in between.

[HeavyMetal]

I have both as well and well suggest that the 222 is the way to go.

Hornets are fun but the 222 is better for a lot longer range.

Cool part is if you keep your eyes open you can still find deals on 222 caliber guns.

Both my Hornet and 222 are Savage 340's that I have less than $200 in each one.

[quilbilly]

I have both as well. I use my 222 when I expect shots across a clearcut out to 350 (I live on the Olympic Peninsula) and use the hornet for close in calling and I want to preserve the quality of the hides. I download my hornet a bit and used 50 gr cb's with gas checks at a mv of about 1950. It does a fine job out to 150 with very little pelt damage.
Both are Thompsen/Center single shot rifles.

[Cactus Farmer]

Cactus Farmer,

Did you ever shoot that load for group at say 100 yards?

MJ

It was a long time ago but as best I remember it was in the 1.5" range. Sako action 26"Douglas med heavy.......Varmit stock. J-words (Ralph Sisk bullets)went into 0.250 or less on a good day. I was amazed that lead would shoot that good , but then I was green as a gourd....16-17 YO. I'm 61 now...you do the math.

[tonyjones]

I like the .22 Hornet AND the .222 Remington. The .222 Remington is quite a bit more versatile than the Hornet. There is a much larger selection of suitable burn rate powders for the .222 as opposed to the Hornet. Another thing, I've had a dickens of a time sorting brass for the Hornet. I've gone through 100 to get 15 or 20 that were acceptable. With the .222 you should be able to find Lapua brass for it. The Lapua brass that I've bought over the past 5 years has been so good that I no longer bother sorting it unless I'm prepping brass for bench rest competition. That stuff has to be neck turned for a tight neck chamber. I've also had good luck with Norma brass and you may be able to find it in .222 as well.
Someone else mentioned CZ rifles here. The CZ 527 is chambered in both Hornet and .222. Depending on model (American, FS, Carbine, Varmint, etc.) they are also available in .204 Ruger,
.221 Fireball, .223 Remington and 7.62x39. The CZ 527 is available with a single set trigger that can be tuned to about 8 ounces (set). I like the CZ. It's a lot of rifle for the money.
Best of luck with whichever you choose.
Regards,
Tony

[Rocky Raab]

Hey, Cactus Farmer - you child, LOL! I have two entire years on you. And you've been paying my SS check for that long, too!

90% of the folks here never even HEARD of Charlie Sisk. In truth, his were about the only decent-quality bullets available at the time - and his were ostensibly benchrest bullets.

[Cactus Farmer]

Hey, Cactus Farmer - you child, LOL! I have two entire years on you. And you've been paying my SS check for that long, too!

90% of the folks here never even HEARD of Charlie Sisk. In truth, his were about the only decent-quality bullets available at the time - and his were ostensibly benchrest bullets.

You ever meet him? I got to shake his hand back in '69. Talked all afternoon and saw all his toys and the railroad iron with holes shot in it. A sledge hammer head too. As we visited I told him about my success with his 52 grn Niedners and as we said our good byes he gave me 4 boxes of them.
After he passed I was in Iowa Park and went by the old place. The old sign was still there, I should have taken it down and brought it home. I hope who ever did takes good care of it.
He was as nice a fellow as I ever met. Took an afternoon off the encourage a young guy and tell him how happy he was I liked his stuff. I know now he could have shot rings around me even then, but I felt like a king!

[skeet1]

I have both but if I was restricted to one I would choose the .222. The .222 is much more versatile.

Skeet1

[Marlin Junky]

OK...

Here's the second part of my two part question:

How frustrating is it to cast perfect little boolits from .22 caliber boolit molds with a dipper? I would think it would be a piece of cake with clean, pre-heated ferrous molds, 800F metal and a good dipper like the Rowell#1 as long as one can get the metal through those tiny sprue holes before it cools. Or, am I in for a rude awakening?

MJ

[Cactus Farmer]

OK...

Here's the second part of my two part question:

How frustrating is it to cast perfect little boolits from .22 caliber boolit molds with a dipper? I would think it would be a piece of cake with clean, pre-heated ferrous molds, 800F metal and a good dipper like the Rowell#1 as long as one can get the metal through those tiny sprue holes before it cools. Or, am I in for a rude awakening?

MJ

HOT metal is the key. It's easy, and it makes your lead supply go a looooong way![smilie=w:

[TCLouis]

Larry G

What powder did you use with the 225415?

I use a Lyman mold and thought it has bee a long time since i cast any they rolled right along. The next ones I cast will have more tin or lino or both.

[303Guy]

I've had a heap of fun with my hornet. Using R-P cases and never sizing anything, I developed a way of loading up 55gr j-words with stunning performance using compressed Lil'Gun. I'm talking in excess off 2700fps. I would still choose a 222 for its long neck and even higher velocity. By the way, I could drive a 60grainer to about 2650fps with good accuracy. It's got a 1-in-16 twist and a .223 bore and i was shooting .224 j's through it. It killed ferral goats just fine. I tried casting for it but never got any decent boolits out my mold - it's too hard!

[DLCTEX]

I cast the 225438 and the Lee Bator boolits and have no problems if preheating the mould and running fast and hot.

[1Shirt]

Both excellent. Hornet a bit cheaper to shoot w/less powder. 222 stretches farther. Can stretch cast in either to 150 on a calm day, and 2200-2350 is within reason, but tradjectory if sighted with/for full powered jacketed loads is like a lead baseball. At least one of each is the way to go.
:coffeecom
1Shirt!

[Bret4207]

I would be inclined to lean towards the 222, but these days that's a rare caliber it seems. The Hornet would be easier to find brass for, but the 222 might be easier to work with.

Do what I did, 218 Bee!

[MaxJon]

Made my mind up! Looks like i will be goin for the .222R also! I have a single shot Omark 44 (223R conversion) with a corroded barrel! Looks like it will be gettin a triple deuce barrel replacement!! I also made the foolish mistake of parting with a Sako 222R! It was the most accurate rifle i have owned to this day!
Thanks Larry!!
BB03

[stephen perry]

I have a Rem 722/.222 and that has been my go to gun since 1963. It shoots great with jacketed and respectable with Cast. As far as brass the .222 will never have a problem. Since 1963 I have been making .222 out of .223. My favorite .223 to size down to .222 is WCC 64 but all of it works. If you go the .223/.222 route I would suggest a LEE case trimmer as there is a good amount of excess brass to trim. For factory brass I have a good set of WW I am using. I Match prep all my .222 brass.

Mt brass scrounger traded me a bag of 325 22 hornet brass for I hope a future Hornet. I bought RCBS Hornet dies need the shell holder but I'm ready for a Hornet.

For Cast molds for a Hornet I would start with my 225 438 and add my 225 415 later. For my .222 I use 225 415, 225 462, and 225 642.

For 22 casting Cast fast and look for great bases the rest will be ok.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

[Lloyd Smale]

222 is definately better but the 22 hornet just has more cool factor.

[Larry Gibson]

TCLouis

Larry G

What powder did you use with the 225415?


It was a very slow and clean burning lot of 4895. I've not had any 4895 that slow burning for a long time. That's why I didn't mention the load. If I still had a .222 with a 14" twist I would look at 4895, RL15 and possibly RL19 and AA4350 with Lyman's 225415 or most likely 225462.

Larry Gibson

[9.3X62AL]

I've been out of the 22 Hornet and 222 Remington business for quite a while. Another of either might land here some day, but the Hornet will be a CZ variant--NOT a Ruger. 222s tend to have 1-14" twists, kind of a "default setting" for 22 centerfires over the years. That twist predominates in 22-250 as well. Even the M-16 and M-16A1 used 1-14".

More recent rifles in 223 Rem/5.56 x 45 employ faster twists, the M-16A2 using a 1-7" pitch. Many commercial 223s now use a 1-9" pitch, which is sort of a "compromise" setting that works well with 55 grain bullets as well as some of the longer/heavier models--e.g., the Sierra 69 grain Matchking. The 75-90 grain javelins likely need the 1-7" pitch, but are outside my experience.

As for casting the tiny little pills--heat is definitely your friend. So is tin in the alloy. I had about a 25% reject rate using 92/6/2 alloy at 775*, and less than a 10% rate when I used Linotype. Most of my casting gets done about 100* cooler, but I bump the heat up for 22-25 caliber casting. Dunno if raising the heat would make 92/6/2 more cooperative or not. Wouldn't hurt to try, I suppose. This is all with a bottom-pour RCBS furnace, I should note. I have found dipper casting to be a more forgiving method than bottom-pouring, though not as fast in terms of net production--even after culling, and bottom-pouring creates more culls.

[Marlin Junky]

I tried out my RCBS 22-055 a couple days ago and I was kind of disappointed... disappointed enough to try a larger caliber... like a .24 or .25. After pouring a bunch of rejects with 50/50 metal I found that running my melt over 800F produced the best results. Nevertheless, I've got one cavity that casts a 56.2 grain boolit and one that casts a 56.9 grain boolit. Perhaps a little more breaking in and a vent line across the block top will help matters. I'm under the impression that the lighter weight Lyman blocks might be better suited for the diminutive .22. Nevertheless, I'm not sure I have the manual dexterity to check, lube and load these little boogers. Oh well, I guess it's worth my best shot... I think I will try a Handi-Rifle barrel before spending any real money on a Krieger or Shilen.

MJ