Softening a Cast Bullet

[tkcomer]

I have store bought Laser Cast bullets sized at .310 for my 30-30. I bought these to use for low power loads to plink with. I get leading in the first few inches of the barrel when using them with 9grs of Unique. “Everybody” tells me the bullets are too hard for this low power load. I see where people water quench bullets to harden them. Is there a way to heat these bullets and not water quench them to soften them up?

[Larry Gibson]

tkcomer

Your leading problem is the result of the hard wax lube on those bullets not doing the job with the lighter loads. Try a light coat of LLA on them or soak the bullets in Coleman Fuel for a couple hours to wash of the lube and then LLA them.

Larry Gibson

[qajaq59]

If you boil them in hot water the lube will come off as well.

[tkcomer]

I did lube the second loadings with Lee Liquid Alox before I used them. No change.

[311-200]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=85901
Maybe this will help to you.

[leftiye]

Too small as well as too hard, as well as having a poor lube (as bought)?

[mooman76]

If the lube wasn't working, it would lead the whole barrel. The bullet is a hair too small and then bumping up after it travels down the first fe inches of the barrel. If you can live with that little bit of leading, shoot them up and try something else later. If you have some left on the powder scale, you could bump up the powder charge and maybe it will bump the bullet up quicker.

[tkcomer]

I'm trying to understand why this is happening. My Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook is confusing. In one section, it talks about a bullet being too hard and not expanding when fired at lower pressures. It says the lead deposits are from the bullet being flame cut by the hot gases. But then, in another section, they claim that can't happen. That the bullet isn't in contact with the gases long enough to melt. But then I read that the problem is the bullet being too hard and not expanding in which case the bullet skids those first few inches before it gets a grip. And that the skidding is what's causing the leading. There's not that much lead in those first few inches. That's what I'm trying to figure out. Is the bullet being flamed cut or is it the skidding that's causing the leading. And is there a way to soften them up to experiment some more? Thanks for the reply's so far.

[trapper9260]

Have you check what size your bore size is compare to the size of the bullet? Check that . That might help.

[Calamity Jake]

Remove all the lube then put then in a 350° oven for 1 hour then turn of the oven and let the boolits come to room temp in the oven. This will soften them, relube and shoot a few to check for leading.
The higher the temp of the oven(up to about 450°) the softer the boolit will become. They will age harden some for the next two weeks or so.

I've taken store bough hard cast from 20-22 bhn to 10-12 bhn then over a two week period they age hardened back to 15-16 bhn.

[MT Gianni]

Remove all the lube then put then in a 350° oven for 1 hour then turn of the oven and let the boolits come to room temp in the oven. This will soften them, relube and shoot a few to check for leading.
The higher the temp of the oven(up to about 450°) the softer the boolit will become. They will age harden some for the next two weeks or so.

I've taken store bough hard cast from 20-22 bhn to 10-12 bhn then over a two week period they age hardened back to 15-16 bhn.

I understood that this would work if water dropped or oven quenched but not if cast from a hard alloy ala 2/6/92?

[tkcomer]

Even if the bullet is too small, I'd like to know the cause of the leading. Flame cutting or skidding. As far as softening them, I'd thought about the harder alloy. A friend just came into a bunch of casting equipment. Even he doesn't even know what all he's got. Doubt he has a mold for this, but if need be, I might buy a mold and remelt these if I can figure out a way to soften them. I'd rather not do that if I can soften them some other way.

[Larry Gibson]

I did lube the second loadings with Lee Liquid Alox before I used them. No change.

Try removing the lube and then put a good coat of LLA on them. Otherwise try the oven method Calamity jake mentioned. What load are you suing under them in the 30-30?

BTW; do not water quench them as that is what hardens the hot bullet. Just let them air cool mentioned.

Larry Gibson

[303Guy]

I'n not sure on all alloys but my mystery alloy age hardens regardless of water quenching. After just a few hours I cannot tell the difference between WQ and AC.


I get leading in the first few inches of the barrel when using them with 9grs of Unique.That could be flame erosion, not flame cutting - can't get flame cutting, there is no time to heat and melt the lead. After the first few inches of bore, there will not be enough 'flame' to erode any further so the leading would cease. That's if it's flame erotion in the first place. (The difference between flame erosion and cutting is that with erosion the high speed gas molecules - hot and under pressure - mechanically abrade particles of lead off the boolit).

[Calamity Jake]

I understood that this would work if water dropped or oven quenched but not if cast from a hard alloy ala 2/6/92?

I've not knowlingly worked with 2/6/92 so don't know about it.
I've always had WW and Lino.
I just know it worked with the hard cast that I had at the time.
I had about 2000 158/38's store bought hard cast given to me and knew they would lead even if they were the right size.

I checked hardness both before and after oven anneal and got the resultes I posted.

[blackthorn]

Quote:"I'm trying to understand why this is happening. My Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook is confusing. In one section, it talks about a bullet being too hard and not expanding when fired at lower pressures. It says the lead deposits are from the bullet being flame cut by the hot gases. But then, in another section, they claim that can't happen. That the bullet isn't in contact with the gases long enough to melt. "

There is a huge difference between "flame cutting" in which the concentrated pressure on a tiny area from the gasses being able to bypass the base of the bullet abraides (cuts) tiny particals off, that are then ironed into/onto the bore by the force of the passing bullet and "melting" bits off the bullet's base, which just does not happen! Do not confuse the two terms!

If you think your bullets are the cause of the leading you are seeing, the first thing you need to do is to slug your bore so that you know what size bullet will fit! Fit is king!! The "fit" is almost always the place to start! Once you are sure the fit is correct you can move on to check other possible problem areas (one variable at a time).

[qajaq59]

If those bullets are too small they may very well be bouncing from side to side as they go down that barrel. That would slice off lead and it would adhere to the steel. Especially if you are firing a string of shots. I too would slug the barrel and see just how well those fit.

[mooman76]

Could be that just passed your chamber is a hair larger than the rest of the bore and that's why you get leading in the first part. Lyman is saying that the lead is not actually melting. it is being stripped because of the hat gasses getting by the bullet. I have one gun that is so bad and the bore oversized so much that when I first shot it, there was a layer of lead stuck to the muzzle that I pelaed off like a piece of solider that melted and dropped on the floor.

[KYCaster]

Why is it necessary to remove the original lube before you apply LLA? :confused:

Seems to me the only benefit you'd get from adding LLA is to help fill a throat that's larger than the boolit. I haven't tried it myself, but those who have say it sometimes works very well.

Personally, I don't have a problem with "hard commercial lube". It works far better for me than LLA ever did. I've found very few applications where it doesn't do well...leading is seldom a problem in anything I shoot.

My guess is FIT is the problem. A coat of LLA is simple enough to try(or dip the nose of a loaded round) and may improve the situation. If your boolit really is too small and the LLA doesn't work then there's not much you can do.

Good luck.

Jerry

[jsizemore]

You could try increasing your powder charge and see if more pressure solves the problem.

Might not be a plinking load to shoot as is but it could help point you in a more definite direction.

[mooman76]

Time to cast your own maybe!

[303Guy]

You could try increasing your powder charge and see if more pressure solves the problem.That's one way that might work. Another trick is to use a filler like Grits. I have used wheat bran which cleans the bore real good and doesn't raise the pressure as much but is PITA to get into the case! Grits on the other hand, is easy to measure and to pour into the case. It is slightly compressable which is needed for firm packing. It does raise the pressure and also the velocity but reduces the muzzle blast by consuming more of the powder energy in the bore. It forms a gas tight seal behind the boolit and scrubs the bore too. I would only use it with fairly mild Unique loads. I have started using it with slower powders to raise the pressure of reduced slow powder loads. Results are very promising!

[Bret4207]

I'm trying to understand why this is happening. My Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook is confusing. In one section, it talks about a bullet being too hard and not expanding when fired at lower pressures. It says the lead deposits are from the bullet being flame cut by the hot gases. But then, in another section, they claim that can't happen. That the bullet isn't in contact with the gases long enough to melt. But then I read that the problem is the bullet being too hard and not expanding in which case the bullet skids those first few inches before it gets a grip. And that the skidding is what's causing the leading. There's not that much lead in those first few inches. That's what I'm trying to figure out. Is the bullet being flamed cut or is it the skidding that's causing the leading. And is there a way to soften them up to experiment some more? Thanks for the reply's so far.

I didn't read all the posts, so forgive me if this was covered-

You are right, there simply isn't enough time for the heat transfer to take place to melt. What there is time for is for the hot, high pressure gases to find a little space to escape though (boolit too small or not fitted) and to erode the boolits surface like a sandblaster or cutting torch. Now, the too hard business comes from a lack of proper fit, so many people give the boolit a good thump with the powder causing it to swell and seal the bore. The problem with that is the whole length of the boolit doesn't swell in most cases or it varies some from shot to shot. Skidding can cause leading too as it provides an insufficient seal.

I prefer to use a boolit large enough to seal without depending on obturation (swelling) and to launch many of my boolits with a gentler push so as not to risk variable results. IN other words, I prefer to fit the boolit to the gun. Obturation works, but it's a makeshift approach. You're caught in a spot where you have to try and fit a boolit that MIGHT be too hard, doesn't have static fit and uses a lube designed for looks and ease of use instead of best performance.

Just for giggles, measure the inside diameter of a case fired with a full house load in your rifle. Then measure your commercial boolit and see if they are close. As a very general rule that max diameter of the case mouth will be very close to what you usually end up finding works best in your rifle. Not always, but often enough that its worth looking at.

[tkcomer]

Would one of the problems be the fact the bullets are a gas check design and I have no gas checks on them? Would that give the gases a better path to erode the bullet better than a flat base design? I was “told” that as long as I didn't push a gas check designed bullet over1400 fps, I wouldn't have a problem. I've heard the rule of thumb is 2 thousands over bore size. Or do you try to match the bullet to groove size? If everything works out, I plan to slug this gun Thursday night. Actually, I'm gonna slug two guns. The other is an old K 98 Mauser. I've found sources for cast bullets for it. One is even a flat base design. But I'm trying to understand whats going on with the Win 94 before I move on to loading for the 98. When I get the guns slugged, I'll report back.

[Stoats]

This is what I would do as a 1st option (and yes, I know I'm changing 2 things so I'm not being totally scientific):

1. Leave the existing factory lubricant in there, and tumble on a generous amount of LLA. It can't hurt.
2. Try somewhere between 5-7 grains of Bullseye or equivalent. This is faster than unique, and suffices to bump up 313 bullets to a 318 groove depth in my 303 without leading. An equivalent velocity with unique equivalent didn't do this

Under 1200 ft./s and using Bullseye or equivalent you can get away with murder. Don't worry about gas checks.

[DLCTEX]

You want to size boolits to .001-.002 over groove size to make sure the seal is complete. The barrel will take care of sizing it down to fit. I haven't had much luck getting a GC boolit to shoot well without a check.

[Bret4207]

Would one of the problems be the fact the bullets are a gas check design and I have no gas checks on them? Would that give the gases a better path to erode the bullet better than a flat base design? I was “told” that as long as I didn't push a gas check designed bullet over1400 fps, I wouldn't have a problem. I've heard the rule of thumb is 2 thousands over bore size. Or do you try to match the bullet to groove size? If everything works out, I plan to slug this gun Thursday night. Actually, I'm gonna slug two guns. The other is an old K 98 Mauser. I've found sources for cast bullets for it. One is even a flat base design. But I'm trying to understand whats going on with the Win 94 before I move on to loading for the 98. When I get the guns slugged, I'll report back.

Ah, yeah, that would be a huge factor.

[MtGun44]

Fo rifles, my best results has been .003 over bore size. For pistols about .001 or .002
usually, but a few are OK with just .0005 over.

I think the hardness is just the commercial alloy, not due to heat treat, altho it is worth
heating one or two up to see if the soften. I doubt they will.

I also would try adding the GC if it is not on the boolit.

Bill

[runfiverun]

you can temporarily de-harden cast boolits with heat however they will return to the alloys hardness after a bit of time.
oh yeah and no gas checks could easily be the problem.
i'd either check or ive with the leading as long as it isn't affecting accuracy then get the non g/c version.

[qajaq59]

tkcomer, do you have any gas checks that you could put on those and try it that way?

[tkcomer]

I don't have any gas checks. Or anyway to put them on. Yet. This Thursday when I go to my friends house to slug this gun, I'm gonna look his stuff over. He's never casted and neither have I, but he now has all this stuff from a death in the family. I want to look and see what he has. That's why I mentioned that I might remelt these bullets and try to soften them. If I can find a flat based mold for the 30-30. But I got a lot of learning to do. Casting is a lot different than buying. Obviously what I bought isn't working for the powder puff loads I want to shoot in the backyard. Then again, if he has a way to gas check them, I might go that route and see what happens.

[Bret4207]

I'm not sure what Gas Checks cost these days but a box and a Lee push trough sizer about .311 diameter might just fix your problem.

Why anyone would sell GC boolits w/o the GC is beyond me.

[qajaq59]

tkcomer, if you can find a way to crimp them on, send me your address and a note in a PM and I'll mail you some to try. If you aren't going to use them regularly, buying a 1000 of them is rather expensive.

[tkcomer]

Finally got to slug the 30-30 Winchester. It's .300/.308. So the .310 bullets must be too hard for what I'm doing. He has a way to gas check them. Will they still lead with gas checks on them at the low power loads I'm shooting? Or should I melt them down? He has pure lead. In fact, that's all he has. And a lot of it. But we don't have an idea at what ratio to use. His Lyman book says to size cast bullets at groove diameter. I thought you were supposed to go 2 thousands over. And the 8mm Mauser slugged at .317/323. Would the .324 Hunter's Supply Flat based bullets be a good choice for that gun? I get more confused the more I study this stuff. Thanks for putting up with me.

[mooman76]

We are ahead uf the book. It hasn't been updated as far as cast much int the past few years. Yes, GCs should take care of your problem but it there is no absolute that this will happen if you do that. I'm surprized that the bullet company would sell you a GC bullet that isn't checked. I wouldn't melt them do but thaat's me. You said there was only a minor amount of leading. I myself could live with that but that's me. You have to do for you. GC bullets can be used without GCs but they can't be pushed as hard so this is probably your problem. .324 bullets should be OK for your 8mm. Sometime .002 over is better for rifles with the higher pressure but you should still be good. May mean you just can't push them as hard.

[Bret4207]

I doubt they are too hard. Better chance the GC/lube combo is the issue.

[tkcomer]

Midway has gas checks on sale. Since he has a way to put them on, I'll buy some.