Is Lube Really Necessary?

[Josh Smith]

Hello,

I've run across a few places on the internet (I know... I know...) that say lubing isn't strictly necessary for lead bullets.

The reasoning is that, if the bullet is undersized, there will be leading regardless, and if the bullet is sized correctly, leading will not occur.

Cited on one page is "Norm Johnson," who "is shooting un-lubricated revolver bullets, with good accuracy and no leading."

Given that lead is used as a lubricant in some non-shooting applications, this does sort of make sense.

What do you all make of this?

Thank you,

Josh

[rhead]

Try it and post the results.

[Dollar Bill]

I think lube is necessary most of the time, but many times we're over-lubing. In my Springfield 1903 shooting a Saeco 315, I've cut back from lubing all grooves to just the one groove above the check. The occasional flyers have been reduced with no decrease in accuracy.

[Humbo]

When running boolits through a sizing die without adding lube , I experience lots of friction. With lube added, they go through butter smooth. So my assumption is, lubing must be good.

[44man]

Lube has several functions, it keeps fouling soft so it shoots out ahead of the next boolit and it lubes the barrel so lead does not rub off of a boolit.
Take a hunk of steel and rub lead on it to see what you get and then grease the steel and try again.
Would you put a wheel bearing in your car dry? Why not forget the oil in the crankcase?
Now nobody with any sense is going to tell me that lube is a gas seal, it is just lube and the best quality is if it withstands heat and does not burn in the barrel. There must be lube left after every shot.
I was fooling around one day when soldering some stuff and found all boolit lubes made great flux, some were really good for a good solder joint. They keep oxygen away from hot metal.
But boolits don't melt and barrels do not melt lead, they rub off lead.
Gas cutting is different so a lube might aid soldering lead in a bore. Then remember that steel that is not at the soldering temperature can not be soldered. This is something to think about, does instant heat at the surface of the steel allow soldering? I have no idea!
Metal that is the same will wear and gall. Try to cut steel with a tool bit made from the same steel you are cutting would be a joke. Now take steel and try to cut it with a lead cutting tool! [smilie=w: It will eat the lead away but if you grease it good, it will deform the lead from pressure but will not eat it away. The lube will keep the lead from sticking to the steel.
Write on paper with a pencil made of carbon, a super lube in itself. Now write on wax paper!!!!
Ask me if I want to shoot dry boolits! :veryconfu

[qajaq59]

I've haven't found a loading manual yet that says, " Don't lube your cast bullets." And I have have more faith in manuals then unknown persons on the web.

[mooman76]

Richard Lee claimed you could get away with it at very low velocities with soft lead bullets.

[Trey45]

Q: Is lube really necessary?

A: Yes.

[jimr]

i think 44MAN did a fine job explaining the no-lube issue. i think all bullets require some sort of lube to reduce friction.
jim

[geargnasher]

Q: Is lube really necessary?

A: Yes.

Dadgummit, you beat me to the short answer :kidding:

Anyway, I, too, can back up your answer with experience.

Gear

[StarMetal]

44man,

Your analogy was pretty good. I do have to differ with cutting steel with the same steel tool bit. If you harden and temper that tool bit more then likely it will easily cut the other steel. I know you will reply that it's not the same steel then. Yes it is, same alloy just hardened. :bigsmyl2:

[HeavyMetal]

No less a legendary shooter / reloader than Dean Grennell once told of his first experience with shooting lead boolits out of his K38 S&W.

This was just after WWII and he had never seen cast boolits before. Doing sheet metal estimates for heating and air conditioning he saw a reloading casting set up in a prospective customers home.

When interest was expressed the prospect was kind enough give Dean the general ideas of loading and casting.

Excited Dean went and found the only 38 mold still loose in Michigan bought it and cast some up.

In to big a hurry to start shooting they were loaded as cast with no lube because he didn't want to wait for the other equipment to find it's way to him.

Once on the road he found a little side road suitable to pull off in and not attract attention with the noise of fired rounds.

He loaded up and fired 6 of his new wonders. Never hit the target!

Upon inspection of the pistol no hole was to be found in the barrel!

Compeletely leaded up he was several days removing the build up from the gun.

He put this story in print in one of the ABC's of reloading he helped edit and write.

If un lubed lead boolits could be fired with no leading Dean Grennell would have found a way to do it!

As for this fellow Norm Johnson?

He may be using a dry lube and not consider it a lube.

He may be treating the barrel with something like Molybdenum Disulfide rather than the lead boolits.

He may be shooting factory wad cutter loads which are dry lubed, and he just doesn't know it.

He could be "firing" a CO-2 pistol, not realizing that even pellets have a wax on them.

He could also be posting bogus info as a joke to see how many people will actually try it!

Without more information about this fellow or his "experiment" you'll pardon me if I continue to lube my boolits.

We've all seen snake oil sold in one form or another and this has that smell to it!


Looking forward to MR. Johnson becoming a site member and sharing his wisdom.

[4570guy]

I think lube is necessary most of the time, but many times we're over-lubing.

I'll second that statement. I've been using a VERY light coating of LLA on all my cast loads and have had zero leading issues. I've never shot any with zero lube, but in my estimation, it doesn't take much at all. Velocity ranges I've experimented with have been between 1300 fps in the 45-70 up to 2200 fps in the .303 Brit.

[Maven]

"As for this fellow Norm Johnson....? He may be using a dry lube and not consider it a lube.
He may be treating the barrel with something like Molybdenum Disulfide rather than the lead boolits."

Norm Johnson is a long-time member of the Cast Bullet Assoc., with many published articles in "The Fouling Shot." I read his article, but I don't believe he used any type of dry lube on either the CB's or in the bbl. Then again, you can ask these questions on the CBA Forum to see whether Norm (or someone else) can shed some more light on the matter.

[felix]

"Write on paper with a pencil made of carbon, a super lube in itself. Now write on wax paper!!!!". This is the best example I've seen. ... felix

[HeavyMetal]

A good suggestion. I will check out the CBA site.

[35remington]

Norm Johnson's point was that if the bullet fit the revolver exactly, bullet lube could be omitted in certain highly specialized loads that were assembled by a guy who has a bit of a measuring and dimensional fetish.

It was done to prove a point, and would not be true for most off the shelf revolvers and many loads.

While it was found on the internet, Norm's work fits in the category of good information by a guy who knows what he's talking about, rather than the "internet rumor" category. Applying such a title to Norm's findings (on whatever he's posted) would be doing him a considerable disservice and would deprive the reader of good information.

[fredj338]

Hello,

I've run across a few places on the internet (I know... I know...) that say lubing isn't strictly necessary for lead bullets.The reasoning is that, if the bullet is undersized, there will be leading regardless, and if the bullet is sized correctly, leading will not occur.

Cited on one page is "Norm Johnson," who "is shooting un-lubricated revolver bullets, with good accuracy and no leading."

Given that lead is used as a lubricant in some non-shooting applications, this does sort of make sense.

What do you all make of this?

Thank you,

Josh
Well that pretty much removes those sites credability. Shoot a couple of properly siezed lead bullet w/o lube & let us knwo what you get. Yes, some sort of lube is required w/ lead bullets, regardless of sizing.:roll:

He may be treating the barrel with something like Molybdenum Disulfide rather than the lead boolits.
Or maybe the bullets were only going 300-400fps, about like airgun vel. Yeah, maybe, but that is a bit of a stretch when talking in general terms of lube or no lube.

[Salmon-boy]

Ok, so pardon the brain dump here. Maybe someone should flush.

1) Anyone ever heard of galling? Metal rubbing on metal galls, or shears off sections. I would think un-lubed boolits would gall eventually.

2) Think about babbit bearings. Even with harder babbit, containing copper and higher tin content, lubrication is still necessary. I've personally seen what dry babbit bearings can do to a hardened steel shaft of a surface planer.

3) Jacketed bullets don't necessarily NOT gall. Copper fouling in barrels? Why else would it be there?

4) Rifling - Barrels have a set twist. Excessive acceleration will cause shear failure in almost all metals. I would think that if you're pushing a boolit or bullet too hard, too fast for a twist rate, you're gonna strip something off.

5) Heat resistance.. Lube tends to absorb a whole bunch of heat. Try boiling water in a plastic container over an open flame sometime. Since most lubes are long chain hydrocarbons (wax based) they will vaporize and crack, allowing heat energy to be absorbed. This keeps that heat away from the boolit.

I'm sure that I'm missing something, but I think within these rules, you could find circumstances where you're not pushing a boolit hard enough to cause galling and the natural lubricity of lead will prevent any galling and the barrel twist or bore-fit allow the boolit to start spinning without stripping. I would thin that the heat of burning powder, for such a minute amount of time will soften the first few molecule layers of a cast boolit, reducing shear strength would allow galling to occur all that more so..

[mtgrs737]

Is lube expensive or so hard to apply that one would want to consider not doing so??? I don't understand why anyone would even consider not lubing. LOL! The above posts all support lubing for their many reasons, all of which I agree with.

After all look at all the fun we would be missing out on by not lubing with our own secret home brew lubes!

[35remington]

As I pointed out above, Norm Johnson has found circumstances where no lube in his revolvers can work given the right factors, so it can be done.

This makes it possible and credible, but the context should be understood.

It's not going to work most of the time for most of us. Since most guns aren't like Norm's, nor do most guys know the proper dimensions or have the expertise or the interest to make it work as a technical exercise, lube the bullets or you'll regret it!

[StarMetal]

Ok, so pardon the brain dump here. Maybe someone should flush.

1) Anyone ever heard of galling? Metal rubbing on metal galls, or shears off sections. I would think un-lubed boolits would gall eventually.

2) Think about babbit bearings. Even with harder babbit, containing copper and higher tin content, lubrication is still necessary. I've personally seen what dry babbit bearings can do to a hardened steel shaft of a surface planer.

3) Jacketed bullets don't necessarily NOT gall. Copper fouling in barrels? Why else would it be there?

4) Rifling - Barrels have a set twist. Excessive acceleration will cause shear failure in almost all metals. I would think that if you're pushing a boolit or bullet too hard, too fast for a twist rate, you're gonna strip something off.

5) Heat resistance.. Lube tends to absorb a whole bunch of heat. Try boiling water in a plastic container over an open flame sometime. Since most lubes are long chain hydrocarbons (wax based) they will vaporize and crack, allowing heat energy to be absorbed. This keeps that heat away from the boolit.

I'm sure that I'm missing something, but I think within these rules, you could find circumstances where you're not pushing a boolit hard enough to cause galling and the natural lubricity of lead will prevent any galling and the barrel twist or bore-fit allow the boolit to start spinning without stripping. I would thin that the heat of burning powder, for such a minute amount of time will soften the first few molecule layers of a cast boolit, reducing shear strength would allow galling to occur all that more so..

4) Rifling - Barrels have a set twist. Excessive acceleration will cause shear failure in almost all metals. I would think that if you're pushing a boolit or bullet too hard, too fast for a twist rate, you're gonna strip something off.


I doubt that many here will find that with cast alloys, alone jacketed. All I've ever seen extreme acceleration from a rifle barrel do to jacketed is have the bullet vaporize after leaving the barrel.

[StarMetal]

As I pointed out above, Norm Johnson has found circumstances where no lube in his revolvers can work given the right factors, so it can be done.

This makes it possible and credible, but the context should be understood.

It's not going to work most of the time for most of us. Since most guns aren't like Norm's, nor do most guys know the proper dimensions or have the expertise or the interest to make it work as a technical exercise, lube the bullets or you'll regret it!

35remington,

You're a genius and I mean that. Off the topic here, but you've best explained something. That same mindset exists here on this forum big time. A classic example of that is mine and other's HV shooting of cast in the Swede. As much as possible the details of such loading was give out. Yet nobody has been able to duplicate it or at least isn't posting about it. That mindset is "If I can't do it, it can't be done". There have been far too many excuses as to why some people can't do it. Some of the more classic are "I'd have to be there to see with my own eyes". "Anyone can type anything from a keyboard". "I won't believe it until I see it shot in front of another reputable forum member (whoever that may be?)".

Norm's work will more then likely be discredited and smeared.

[Thumbcocker]

Air rifle pellets aren't lubed and they get 1000 fps but I am not going to try it in a firearm.

[HeavyMetal]

Not wanting to insult Norm Johnson I went to the CBA site to see if I could find his article.

Not ready to pay money to join a site I most likely will never visit again I did register for the forum in the hope that I might find some additional infrmation.

No such luck.

Re reading some posts put up after I posted I see 35 Remington has some knowledge of this article.

Being computer illeiterate, and lazy, I was hoping we might get someone to post a link to this article since I was unable to find it.

I am intrigued by the idea but again, from what I gather from 35 remington's post, it looks like this is a "special" deal that isn't for everyones use.

Again I'm pretty darn curious as to what Mr. Johnson had to say and what he was shooting.

[qajaq59]

We spend a good deal of time and effort trying not to get any lead in our barrels. Somehow I don't think that leaving the lube off is going to help much. :bigsmyl2:

[StarMetal]

I've heard and been told that what Norm done can be done. I've personally never tried it myself. I would love to know all the details of how to do it. To me it's astonishing. It goes against everything I've been taught and learned. I've also been told that it can be done with rifles.

Just for some though. You can shoot a few balls from a cap n ball revolver with having the lube over the ball and sealing the cylinder. This I've done. It amazed me too at how many rounds you can fire from cap n ball revolver and never get the leading, at least I never have. The last sentence I'm talking with sealing the cylinders with lube. Now when I use my hollow base conical I only lube the grooves on the bullet with 50/50 and do not seal the cylinder mouths and that bullet leaves nothing in the barrel.

[XWrench3]

i dont buy running metal on metal without some kind of lubrication, no matter what types they are. and in my experience, the faster it moves, the better lubrication is needed. you might get by with very low speed revolver or single shot loads, but if there is going to be any speed involved, or any barrel length involved, it had better be lubed. the faster it goes, or the longer the barrel, the more friction there is going to be. friction = heat, and heat and pressure = galling. i also buy into the "lubrication keeps the fouling soft" theory. it makes perfect sense to me. i am not claiming to be "smart", just experience is usually a pretty good teacher. i have had my share of experience with leadding in bores, and that IS using lube, i can not imagine what it would be like w/o any lube.

[35remington]

Thanks, Joe, but I always had almost as much trouble with those who say "can't" as much as those who who claim they can all the time no matter what!

If a fellow can show he's doing something successfully and is willing to demonstrate his concepts in front of others to verifiable review, then it doesn't matter what the others might think....he's really doing it!

And for the record, I believe Norm Johnson. I've read how he does it without lubricant and the concepts are sound. If it is working for him, then we need to understand the circumstances he's employing it under before condemning it as unworkable, especially if we've never tried it!

We very likely could be missing something important.

[geargnasher]

Air rifle pellets aren't lubed and they get 1000 fps but I am not going to try it in a firearm.

NOT true. Air rifle pellets ARE lubed, some with wax, some with various "dry" lubes, and Benjamin .22 pellets are oiled. I envite you to boil some with soapy water, dry them, and shoot them at even 800 fps, you'll be de-leading your airgun!

Gear

[chboats]

This is not the thread by or about Norm Johnson but they are talking about unlubed boolits in a 22 cal rifle at 2k+ fps. If member damron g (linoww) would pickup on this he might be able to shed more light on this

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/forum/view_topic.php?id=3368&forum_id=34&highlight=unlubed+

I don't plan on giving up my lubed boolits any time soon

Carl

[HeavyMetal]

Good luck reading that!

[35remington]

Lead airgun pellets with no lube will not lead. Not in my break barrel and side lever .177's and .22's, they don't.

They have minimal bearing surface (a key factor) and the whole chamber pressure/powder gasses interaction is completely different.

I have shot many brands of airgun pellets with no lube.

No leading results.

Many brands are sold dry, but I understand that pellets were often lubed to guard against barrel moisture issues in pump up and precharged types. (CO2 powerlets contain lubricant). These were a source of rust in pneumatic and pre-charged pneumatic air guns as moisture tends to condense in these barrels, as I understand it, from the pressurized air source. Benjamin often sold brass barreled guns to avoid such problems, supposedly.

This seems to be a plausible reason for some types being lubed but they don't need lube at all in most cases to prevent leading.

Mine are springers and have no issues with dry lubeless pellets but this sure ain't a cartridge gun.

[wallenba]

I knew a Norm Johnson once. He was an outboard motor repairman with two fingers on each hand.
Same guy maybe?:mrgreen:

[sagacious]

NOT true. Air rifle pellets ARE lubed, some with wax, some with various "dry" lubes, and Benjamin .22 pellets are oiled. I envite you to boil some with soapy water, dry them, and shoot them at even 800 fps, you'll be de-leading your airgun!

Gear
Correct-a-mundo. They're all lubed. Many have a silicone lube to prevent the soft lead from oxidizing during storage. It's clear, and you cannot easily see it, but it's there. Some light swage lube remains on the pellets too, as the manufacturers don't clean the swage lube off.

A long time ago I cut a .179" mold and ran some experiments casting my own pellets from soft lead and even linotype. With a tight fit in the standard choke bore of my RWS spring-piston guns, leading eventually started toward the end of the barrel. Velocity takes a hit, and accuracy soon goes to pot. However, if the pellets were sprayed with silicone or even WD-40 and the solvent allowed the dry, the barrel stayed shiny and lead-free. Offered for what it's worth.

I have also tried no lube on .4535" 200gr swc's cast from linotype and fired thorugh a .451" 45ACP barrel. The leading was almost beyond belief. I have never seen leading that horrendous since.

Not using any type of lube may work for one or two people now and then; sure didn't work for my guns. The old adage "The exception that proves the rule" comes to mind.

[pjh421]

Say what you will about Norm Johnson; he is the real deal. You wouldn't be aware of him, probably, unless you subscribed to the Cast Bullet Journal. If he were to contribute to this forum I believe many of us could learn a thing or two from him.

Paul

[damron g]

I have shot Popes 308403 without lube @ 100 and at times it will shoot MOA at 100 yards in the 30-06.Bullet is cast of WW.I never found the lubed bullets to out shoot the unlubed by much but i can shoot more consecutive groups with lubed bullets before it needs a scrub. I also shoot no GC 22's with 3.0 of BE in a 22-250 at 50 yards sans lube and they do 1.5" and never lead.They are cast of lino or sterotype.

George

[35remington]

Sorry, guys, but if we're talking about diabolo shaped airgun pellets, I can't agree that they require any lube at all.

The bearing surface is minimal, and little leading results. Beeman suggests unlubed pellets may have more consistent accuracy. Glad to provide references or to demonstrate.

If the pellets have a long contact bore surface, all bets are off, and I have no doubt they'll lead.

[geargnasher]

Sorry, guys, but if we're talking about diabolo shaped airgun pellets, I can't agree that they require any lube at all.

The bearing surface is minimal, and little leading results. Beeman suggests unlubed pellets may have more consistent accuracy. Glad to provide references or to demonstrate.

If the pellets have a long contact bore surface, all bets are off, and I have no doubt they'll lead.

35, My intention was never to discredit you, but I'm still not convinced that you've ever actually shot a completely dry, bare, unlubed pellet. If you did, it would have shown oxidation in just a few weeks, same as air-cooled boolits do without any kind of lube applied. The experience I have with leading in airguns came with an old Benjamin .22 and a Gamo .22. I had scads of old Benjamin and Diablo pellets left over from when I was a kid I liked to hunt rabbits with the Diablos), and they had been mixed in a box that rotted in storage and had mud dauber nests in it with all the nice grit. I boiled the pellets to remove the wax and associated grit, and, out of ignorance, shot them dry. I figured I'd shoot some and store the rest in vacuum-sealed bags to prevent corrosion. I found out you don't shoot dry pellets without consequences. When the accuracy went south, I found lead streaks and lumps in the bore. Soooo, after deleading both guns, I dribbled a little Dexron III on them, swirled around to coat them, and no more problems.

Gear

[legi0n]

if my memory serves me well, the kinetic friction coefficient for copper/steel is about 0.36 while for lead/steel is likely 0.95. Lube must help decrease that.

[cajun shooter]

Back in the early 70's when I first started all of this casting and shooting I came across a lube article. We were casting the 38 148 gr WC and lubing all the lube grooves which were 4. I can't remember who at that time wrote the article but he said that too much lube was bad.He did some test using the same bullet we used for PPC practice. If only two grooves received lube then the accuracy was much better than if all four were filled. So I guess at will still be what is too much or not enough? 44 Man when it comes to engines that you used for comparision on lubes. The lube in the cylinder does in fact help hold back gases that are in the crankcase as they try to go by the piston rings with oil on them.

[MT Gianni]

Cajun, Col Harrison wrote this and several others about overlubing. I get my best accuracy with a single lube groove filled on a 38 wadcutter.

[243winxb]

I Never use lube and get great accuracy. 13" - 10 shot group @ 50 yards. [smilie=w: http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/th_IMG_4693T.jpg (http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/IMG_4693T.jpg)

[35remington]

I'm not worried about being discredited, just about my point being taken in the proper context.

Gear, I shot bare, unlubed pellets all the time, being an ordinary boy who did not keep them in the tin, but rather dropped them in his jeans pockets or denim jacket pocket a few at a time, then retrieved them after removing the lint and fluff that accumulates and soaks up oil better than a sponge after walking around on the farm trying to shoot all manner of unsuspecting critters.

A lot of these pellets got put through the washing machine, too, then shot anyway. My mom sure got irritated picking pellets out of the bottom of the wash barrel! Never did I have a barrel clogged with lead, or even lightly leaded.

No leading showed its ugly head.....ever. Not with diabolo pellets. I shot a whole lot of "jeans pocket" and "wash machine" pellets. For longer bearing length pellets, I don't know, as I didn't shoot those. I shot Benjamin "HC" and the Crosman flatnose "Pells" that came in the long columnar black packs with the red cap in Daisy, Crosman, Benjamins and Sheridans. Later, when my budget got bigger, I shot other types more expensive still in my junior high school years. Including Silver Jets, the first Beeman hollowpoints, H&N match (rarely) etc.

I was also one of those who got into the more sophisticated air rifles very early, reading of Robert's Law's Air Rifle Headquarters way back in the '70's and also after buying a Webley Vulcan. Then RWS and other brands.

It's the short bearing length, almost nonexistent, that kept leading from occurring, not whether they held any kind of lube or not. For that matter, the tiny bearing length has almost no capacity to hold an adequate amount of lube to lube the entire barrel. We worry that the lube will "run out" in rifle length barrels with conventional bullets if there's not enough, and a tiny bearing surface pellet that has no lube grooves that carry lube doesn't carry any lubricant of note. Carrying around in the pockets would remove what was there if of the liquid variety. I don't think pocket carry or the wash machine would do dry lubed pellets any good either.

A dry lube wouldn't last the length of the barrel in reducing leading with a diabolo pellet. It would get removed almost immediately if any was there to begin with. I have yet to see a diabolo pellet with filled lube grooves.

I don't mean to get off topic here, but a pellet with a tiny bearing surface can shoot without leading with no lube whatsoever and I did it all the time. I wouldn't expect a bullet to do the same because it's not similar.

I thought a little more explanation would make my point a little more clearly. A nine to sixteen year old goes through a lot of pellets at that time of his life. I shot wash machine pellets a little later in life too.

An oxidized pellet? There lies your problem with leading, maybe. I never shot any that were heavily oxidized. They just had no lube on them. I would think oxidation a step beyond a no lube state, as the oxide would seem to promote galling.

Maybe that's what you found. My pellets did not oxidize, nor do my air cooled bullets after casting. I can show you any number of not so recently cast bullets, even of pure lead, that show no oxidation.

Here's a picture of a couple I did a year and a half ago. I showed the sprue side to show it's cleanly cut, as a pure lead bullet will do.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y228/johnnyrem/purelead.jpg

Perhaps it's the climate? I dunno.