Is sizing necessary?

[plaz]

I am new at casting so please forgive my stupid questions..

I understand that sizing is desireable because it provides a uniform bullet and a lot of people buy and use expensive lube sizer equipment.

I also notice that most of the Lee molds produce a diameter that is the final diameter desired leaving no need to size the bullets.

If the molds don't provide a diameter larger than the desired final diameter there is no need to buy and use sizing equipment. Yet many people own and use sizing equipment. This is very confusing.

Will some folks please explain this?

[iammarkjones]

I am by no means an expert but I have a Lee .452 mold that casts .4535 and up boolits. There are several factors that affect your as cast size including alloy temprature and a host of other things I don't fully understand. To answer your question you need to get the bullet to the correct size for the barrel you intend to shoot it from. The only way to know that for sure is to slug your barrel. Once you know the true size of your barrel add 00.001. At least that has worked for me. The bottom line is don't take anything for granted if it can be measured by all means measure it, assumptions are dangerous.

[44man]

In a word---NO, if the boolit is the right size. Few of mine get sized and most go through a lapped out lee die to remove excess lube.
If a boolit casts at .432", I rub the Felix lube in the grooves or pan lube, then run them through a .432" die. I have brass tubes for some boolits that I run them through for the same purpose.
You can't make a boolit better then if fell from the mold by rubbing down one side. I almost never seen a round boolit.

[gray wolf]

Hello there and welcome !

Please understand that your question is not stupid, foolish would be not asking at all.
Well you almost have it right, now with a little fine tuning I think we can answer your question.
before we take a bullet and size it we must decide on what size we want, and if with our alloy and casting technique our mold will drop the bullet size we want.
So lets look at our gun barrel ( the inside ) yup there they are, Lands and Grooves. We will be concerned with the cuts in the barrel that go into the barrel, they are the grooves, the raised ones are the lands.
What we should do is take a soft lead slug a little bigger than the inside of the barrel and drive it slowly through the barrel ( please do a search on slugging a barrel )
After that we measure the bullets diameter at it's widest point ( width not length )
use a good caliper or a 1 inch Micrometer.
Lets say it was a 45 ACP and the bullet measured .451 at it's widest point.
For lead bullets it is customary to use a bullet 1 two 2 thousands larger than what we measured. This helps to seal the barrel and prevent hot gases from degrading the bullet
and leading the barrel. OK so if our bullet was .451 I would want a bullet that was .452
or perhaps .4525 So if the bullet dropped from the mold at .452, .4525, or .453 I would probly be ok to lube it and shoot it as cast.
If the bullet was .451 or smaller, I would probly not use it as it would/could cause leading in the barrel. If the bullet was .453 or lager I would size it down to what I thought I needed.
In this case at least .452
Some of the Lee molds with there Micro bands ( tumble lube bullets )can be shot as is from the mold even if they are dropping from the mold 2 or three thousand larger than what we decided we needed. The band on these bullets are very thin and tend to be a little forgiving if they are a little over size. But all the bullets should be lubed before shooting.
I am sure you will get a little more help on this.
I would think some of your reloading books would have covered this subject

Sam

[BrianB]

The Lee micro band (?) tumble lubes don't need sizing, you are correct. I have one in a .358 wadcutter and it works great. Some molds, as mentioned, cast a bit too large, so they need sizing. Some multiple cavity molds will cast bullets with a slight size variation, so some people want to size them for uniformity. I own several molds and all but one drops bullets slightly oversized, exactly how I want them. Only one drops them too large and I run those through my Lube-A-Matic.

If you post what mold you are looking at and what you want to use it for, a lot of folks here will tell you what you need to do, saving you some time as well as possible unnecessary expense.

[beemer]

I run some of my boolits through a sizer to lube and crimp the gas check. I try to find a die that sizes very little or not at all. That works if the boolit cast the right size or a little larger than needed.

If the boolit is large enough to expand the case neck so it will not chamber then it needs sizing. For instance my 30-30 has a .309 groove dia. and my mold drops a little over .311 but it will not chamber a round with a .311 boolit so I size to .310. Every firearm is different you have to play around to find the right combination.

Mold sizes can be hit or miss so don't depend on the advertised specs. I mostly prefer a large mold because you can size it down but making it larger is a lot more trouble.

If you have the proper size mold sizing will not improve it, just lube and shoot.

Dave

[HeavyMetal]

The short answer is no you do not need to size.

The real world answer is: Maybe!

Way to many factors to discuss in a short thead like this, but I'll try to give you some prospective.

First many of us buy expensive lube sizer's because they do a specific job with the least amount of mess and hassle. The goal is to do as much as possible in the least amount of time.

Sizing a boolit is subject to what the re loader wants, or thinks he wants, in the way of boolit diameter to fit a specific weapon.

Many times a mold will drop the correct size for the weapon and just as many times it will not.

A lube sizer gives the re loader an option he does not have if he is just tumble lubing.


Now let's talk about tumble lube and the Tumble lube boolits.

A great idea, on paper, and one that is used by many on this site to lube cast boolits.

It is simple and requires almost no equipment what so ever. The manufacturer that makes these molds, and no you do not need a specific tumble lube mold to do this type of lubing, claims that is as easy as swirling them in an old plastic dish and then let dry before loading.

As far as the instructions go that's it.

What they don't tell you is they can't hold the same tolerance to each mold every time, human error won't allow it, and in some case's your gonna get a mold that cast's a boolit to big for your gun to chamber!

When that happens what will you do? If you try to size them the odds are you will "wipe out" the tiny little groove's that hold the lube. Now you return the mold and hope you get one that "fit's" your gun. With a "standard" lube groove boolit you will have some room to do some sizing if need be.

Now lets talk about Liquid Alox. Sold by several makers this is the "miracile" lube that is supposed to be easy to use and solve all leading problems.

It is "easy" to put on: simply put some boolits in an old plastic dish, pour a little liquid alox in and swish them around until an " even" coating is seen.

There in lies the rub! Define even coating!

The next part is even more fun! You can not leave them in the dish to dry you must "lay them out". Lay them out on what? Lay them out on thier side or stand them all up?

Wax paper, news paper, tin foil or an old towel?

How long to dry? An hour, a day, over night? What if they are sticky?

Many times the "even coating" is to thick. So thinning of the lube is needed. some times that can compound the leading issue so adding a paste wax is suggested.

Many times the "finished" product is sticky so they get covered in motor mica. Now when you load them you either get it all over your hands or all over the inside of the gun gumming up the works.

I hate being a "Kill Joy" but none of that sounds simple and easy.

Now I will and I have suggested the tumble lube set up as a good place for a beginning caster to get started lubing cast boolits.

I always add that messy is the best description of the process and that they will soon graduate to a lube sizer if they cast any amount of boolits.

For those that would despute the "messy" part of tumble lubing I have a test for you: Get your wife to lube a batch of these for you from start to finish.

Then ask her what she think's!

[plaz]

Some of you have suggested that I slug my barrel to determine the desired boolit diameter. My gun is a S & W 629 revolver and I have been highly criticized for trying to slug such a modern high tech weapon.

What do I do now?

[buck1]

I size mine by fireing them through my gun. They come out just right! LOL...Buck

[felix]

There is no need to size anything if the gun is used as a weapon. ... felix

[chris in va]

I don't have to size my 45acp boolits, but my CZ 9mm was grumpy with normal .356 so I had to get a 38 special mold and size it to .358. The Lee sizing die is only about $20 and works fine.


My gun is a S & W 629 revolver and I have been highly criticized for trying to slug such a modern high tech weapon.

Who in the world is saying that? There's nothing wrong or harmful about slugging a barrel.

[Echo]

Some of you have suggested that I slug my barrel to determine the desired boolit diameter. My gun is a S & W 629 revolver and I have been highly criticized for trying to slug such a modern high tech weapon.

What do I do now?

Well, you might learn to ignore some folks comments. There is more expertise on this forum than any other forum of which I am aware, and I doubt if ANYONE here would say such a thing.

Slugging the barrel is correct for autoloaders - for wheel guns, measure the cylinder throats and the barrel. The throat diameter must be larger than the grooves, or else accuracy will be marginal, if that. And size the boolits .0005 over the throat ID (or thereabouts).

And ask those who question slugging the bores where they got their expertise...

[Bass Ackward]

I been wanting to slug my grandson's BB gun soon as he will let go of it long enough.

If it don't move on it's own and lead is expected to come out of it, I slug. I slug new and I slug often (every 500 rounds) until things stabilize.

I get flamed for doing so every once in awhile. Eh .... life goes on.

[mooman76]

Some of you have suggested that I slug my barrel to determine the desired boolit diameter. My gun is a S & W 629 revolver and I have been highly criticized for trying to slug such a modern high tech weapon.

What do I do now?

Slug! We would not suggest it if it didn't need it and if all guns came out the same or were to exact tolerences. Probubly the same people that say if you shoot lead you will(always) lead your barrel.

[plaz]

I have been casting 45 caliber and 44 mag caliber bullets with more than one mold for each caliber. I even tried to size some bullets with the Lee sizing system just to see if it accomplished anything. The results were no significant changes in the bullets. I still don''t understand people buying the expensive lube sizing equipment.

I would love to own a Star lube sizer. It looks like tremendous efficiency. but I
have not been able to find a use for it. Suppose I ask you folks to create a need for me to justify a Star lube sizer. My guns are a 45 caliber Sig, a 9 MM Sig, a
S &W 629- 44 mag caliber revolver and a 22 caliber Ruger revolver.

[mooman76]

It is more of a how many bullets you go through to justify a Star. At least that's the way I look at it. You don't have to get a Star, you have other choices. You can get a RCBS or Lyman instead for like half the price of a Star if you are like me and have the time and don't run though allot of bullets. Plus I do still TL alot of pistol bullets but I did buy a good used Lyman 450 and use it too.

[Crash_Corrigan]

I presently own weapons in the following calibers:

327 Federal Magnum

380 ACP

9 MM

.38 Special

357 Magnum

.44 Special

.45 ACP

.45 Colt

223 Remington

.22 LR

6.5 x 55 MM

.30 Carbine

30-30 WCF

30-06 Garand

.303 British

7.92 x 57 MM (8 MM Mauser)

50-90 Sharps BPCR

12 Gauge Shotgun

I don't load for the shotguns as the cost of el cheapo ammo make the cost of aquisition of reloading equipment academic unless I shoot a lot of it.

I do not load much for the .30 Carbine. Maybe 1,000 rounds a year. Just minimal.

However for the 9 MM, .45 ACP, .223, 380 ACP, .44 Spcl, .38 Spcl and 30-06 Garand I load a lot of ammo.

When I go to the range I seldom fire less than 1,000 rounds. I am always taking a newbie to introduce them to the joys of shooting and such. I love to teach children and women how to use a firearm and most can't wait to go again. I have no problem in shooting off the rounds that I make.

There is a downside. A certain amount of wear and tear on firearms comes with allowing newbies to shoot my firearms. They get dropped, banged around and such events go with the territory. I presently have a Smith 586 6" bbl with a busted off rear sight due to ham handed use by a newbie. I also have a EAA Witness presently in Italy to be rebarreled cuz the newbie (My SWMBO) could not follow simple instructions and they all need constant cleaning, refurbishment and constant attention.

However the rewards are wonderful. These people who were afraid of guns are now accomplished shooters and are looking to buy their own toys and are getting into reloading. We need to keep the traditions alive in our younger people.

I cannot begin to tell you of the freedom from fear some of these ladies now have. Their husbands have gone and they were left with a gun (owned by thier departed spouse) of which they had no knowledge.

Again and again I have taken these survivors to the range and taught them basic gun handling skills and basic shooting skills so they can utilize the guns left behind by their departed spouses for their protection.

I had a lady who was left a very nice Beretta .25 ACP pistola by her husband of 40+ years. She was deathly afraid of it. It made a lousy HD gun but when sold it brought enough for her to get a used Smith Model 10 .38 with a 4" bbl. Within 4 sessions at the range and many hours of practice at home dry firing she is now a confident and accurate shooter utilizing mid range target loads in her gun. She now has even sprang for the Lee combo deal and has her own Challenger press, scale, dies, molds and a 10 # Lee casting pot. She makes her own ammo and casts her own boolits at the ripe age of 77 and she loves it. She is encouraging her peers into the shooting sports and now I have a semi weekly class of silver haired ladies to teach the basics of shooting and reloading ammo.

They all feel that they have taken control of their lives and are no longer afraid of being the victim of a home invasion etc. We combine the arms training with an inspection of thier homes and make recommendations regarding high security screen doors, double deadbolt locks, lights around the house, eliminating hiding spots near the house and have provided instructions on how to prevent being a victim of a home invasion etc.

It is gratifiying to see the improvement in the demeanor and attitude of most of these people. They realize that they can do something to protect themselves and are encouraged to the take the necessary steps to ensure that they do not become a victim.

By encouraging the seniors and teaching the juniors I am ensuring that this shooting sport and the support of the 2nd amendment continues long after I am gone. We all have an obligation to propagate the shooting sports and to ensure that the right to keep and bear arms by the American People is not taken away from us.

The downside is that more people competing with me to get the ww's that are getting harder to corral. I can live with that. I plan to make a rubber bullet trap to recycle my loadings in the near future.

[plaz]

I am still trying to find out when I will require any lube sizer? Which specific bullets will I have to cast with one or more of my guns to require any kind of lube sizer?

Once again my guns are a 45 caliber Sig, a 9 mm Sig, a S & W 44 mag
629 revolver and Ruger 22 caliber revolver. I do not have a lot of guns, since I have been casting a very short time. I love this hobby. I started this hobby at a very late age of 83 and I am trying very hard to learn.. I need your help very much. Please help me.

[mooman76]

Really only you can make that choice. You may not need one at all or may be able to get by without it. With those calibers you can get away with just TL if you want, so it's a matter of choice. For me it was when I got into rifle calibers and wanting to apply better lube. Also Lee didn't start making allot of the sizers in the sizes I needed until a few years ago. Allot of it is just a matter on convienience. Don't be in a hurry. Eventually you will deside.

[looseprojectile]

I am just a kid, 71 and have been doing this casting and loading since the mid fifties.
I would think that if you loaded .429" - .430" boolits in the .44 it would be a good start. The lee moulds and Alox will work in loads up to 1300 or 1400 fps. Up to you how much recoil joy you want.
In the .45 auto you can't be far off to go with .452" diameter and the Lee system works well here also. I use .452" - .453" boolits in my .45 auto ammo and they shoot well in most any .45 auto gun.
In the 9mm gun cast boolits of .357" are a good place to start as most 9mm grooves are near .356". The Lee system works here also.
Load some medium velocity ammo and shoot them and see if you need to refine your loads as to alloy, velocity and boolit diameter. Sizing is only needed for boolits that are too big. I use a fired case to try a boolit in. If it will push in with little effort it can be loaded and fired in that gun.
You have some very good guns to start loading for.
Don't be afraid to ask here if things don't go as you think they should.

Life is good

[mtgrs737]

My quick scan of the preceeding posts revealed that no one addressed that if the cartridge loaded with an un-sized bollit will not chamber in the firearm by gravity alone then you will need to size down the boolit until it does so. The reason being that if the cartridge is so tight in the chamber that it cannot release the boolit easily upon firing then chamber pressures may increase to an unsafe level. The excellent Lee Reloading Manual answers this question. Slugging the barrel and throats will be the best place to start if you experiance leading or inaccurate ammo.

[BrianB]

Plaz,
you may never need a sizer. Like I posted earlier, I only need to size one bullet. It drops from the mold at about .360 and I got a lube-sizer so I could size to .358, lube and install a gas check all at once. If it wasn't for that one mold, I probably would have never needed a lube-sizer...but I just HAD to have that mold! So far as lubing goes, I tumble lube most of my bullets in Lee Liquid Alox. I put my bullets in a zip-lock bag, put in some LLA and roll them around. When they are coated, I remove them wearing a disposable latex glove and dry them base-down on wax paper. It works fine and I have never had a leading problem. You also have the option of pan lubing.

[geargnasher]

Some of you have suggested that I slug my barrel to determine the desired boolit diameter. My gun is a S & W 629 revolver and I have been highly criticized for trying to slug such a modern high tech weapon.

What do I do now?

I also gave this thread a quick scan and I have one thing to reiterate and one thing to add:

1. As Grey Wolf said, your reloading book(s) that you own should cover this basic concept in detail such that you can form your own conclusions. You really need to do some more research with published writ to get a better idea of what reloading with cast boolits involves. Then, the question would be something more like, "I sized to .429" with WDWW, using X powder and charge, my bbl groove dimension is X, cylinder throats are X, and am getting some leading in the first two inches of the bbl, what should I adjust next?".

2. I didn't see it mentioned, but M29s, like many Smith and Wesson revolvers, have pentagonal rifling which can make slug measurement a real pain to do accurately, someone here will be glad to expound upon this, the method I use involves an angled measuring trough that isn't widely available.

Gear

[fredj338]

Many times a mold will drop the correct size for the weapon and just as many times it will not.
Bingo! And that is the problem. Even if the mold actually throw the correct size bullet w/ a specific alloy, are you going to use that exact alloy. Bullets will also come out slightly diff size depending on the temp of the mold & alloy during the cast. So for me, a luber/sizer (not really all that expensive) gives me a uniform size I want & lubes the bullet.
Why have uniform bullet dia? It probably makes less diff during shooting but important for me during the reloading process. If the bullet dia is all over the place, your finish crimp will also be all over. THis seems like it would affect overall accuracy, I haven't tried it, just seems like it would. The more variables, the greater chance of losing accuracy.
Could you get by pan lubing, many do, I am just not one of them.
SO yes, you can make acceptable ammo w/ a die & hammer, but a reloading press makes it sooo much easier, a progressive sooo much easier still for some applications. A luber/sizer is the same thing to me.

[plaz]

I am just a kid, 71 and have been doing this casting and loading since the mid fifties.
I would think that if you loaded .429" - .430" boolits in the .44 it would be a good start. The lee moulds and Alox will work in loads up to 1300 or 1400 fps. Up to you how much recoil joy you want.
In the .45 auto you can't be far off to go with .452" diameter and the Lee system works well here also. I use .452" - .453" boolits in my .45 auto ammo and they shoot well in most any .45 auto gun.
In the 9mm gun cast boolits of .357" are a good place to start as most 9mm grooves are near .356". The Lee system works here also.
Load some medium velocity ammo and shoot them and see if you need to refine your loads as to alloy, velocity and boolit diameter. Sizing is only needed for boolits that are too big. I use a fired case to try a boolit in. If it will push in with little effort it can be loaded and fired in that gun.
You have some very good guns to start loading for.
Don't be afraid to ask here if things don't go as you think they should.

Life is good

Thank you so much for your recommendations.

I just casted a large batch of 44 mag bullets. I took a sampling out of the batch and tried to push them into a case to see how they fit and measured them with my calipers. To my surprise I found that a few of them just slipped all the way into the case while some were too tight. The majority were just right. When you have a large batch of bullets like this you have to assume that the size of the bullets will be similar to the samples. That being the case, now what do I do with the whole batch of bullets?

[lonnydk]

I use tumble lube exclusively. I shoot 219 zipper, 30-30, 30 carbine, 7.62x39, 6.5x55, 8mm, and pistol calibers from 32 acp to 45 colt. I cast all my bullets and do not size any. Period.

Also, I use the LLA and JPW 45-45-10 mix. (JPW will ignite above 350 degrees even on a hotplate so keep that temp down and a wet towel handy.)

I cut a one gallon milk jug off three inches from the bottom and this makes a great bowl to tumble lube in because it is square, and has groves in the bottom. This shape encourages the bullets to tumble.

Don't quit reading yet!

I also made a drying rack from 1/4 inch wire mesh so I wouldn't have to stand the bullets on end. I just tumble and dump on the rack overnight.

With this method I can tumble and dump approximately 150 in under a minute and fit up to 500 on the rack. (450 in less than 3 minutes)

Now I don't shoot 600 yard targets but I do shoot USPSA/IDPA which means I shoot a lot. I load for under 1200 fps in my pistols AND rifles with lead.

1. FAST
2. NOT MESSY
3. CHEAP
4. EASY

I have found no reason to do anything else. It works very well for the type of shooting I do.