6 shots and the leading starts .45acp

[iammarkjones]

After trying my best to absorb all of the information I could from you guys, I still have an issue I need help with. Here is the data I have gathered.

.45 acp Colt series 80 Government, barrel slugs at 00.4515
Federal #150 large rifle primer.
5.0 grains of Alliant Bullseye powder
pushing a lee 90350 <230 gr LRNPB bullet>
I cast these with wheel weight alloy and water quenched
Lee liquid alox lube generous application not cut
The bullets were sized to .4520 (+/-00.0005)

ambient temp at firing 89 degrees unbearable humidity
These six rounds chronograph at;
867
859
869
922
847
855

This is a fairly new weapon I put around 300 copper jacketed rounds through it. I cleaned the barrel until it was free of ALL copper fouling. I have since shot only cast for a total of approximately 200 rounds. These have been shot over a week with several cleanings in between. I loaded a mag with 6 rounds as noted above and found that I am already starting to build leading in the barrel. I was wondering what direction to go next. Thanks in advance for any help you can offer.

[fredj338]

Try not water dropping, they could be a bit hard for 45acp pressures. Try not using Alox, never did get good results w/ it. Try switching powders. Many complain about BE & leading. Just too fast for best results.

[iammarkjones]

I just received my lubersizer a couple of days ago. I have also got a new lee 2 cavity LRNPB that has a lube groove. I have not had a chance to smelt any more WW's yet to try it out. I just loaded up the lubersizer with the RCBS lube that came with it. Before the weekend is out I will know, thanks for the speedy reply!

[462]

Iammarkjones,
I agree with Fredj338, the first change to make should be to air cool the boolits.

Whatever changes you undertake -- powder, lube, alloy, cooling method, position of tongue, etc. -- make but one at a time, shoot at least 25-rounds, and check the results. It makes for a long process, but do it otherwise and you will never know which change fixed the problem. The lessons you learn from this will be invaluable when you move on to other calibers and guns.

Take your time, don't get frustrated, and you'll get it.

[mike in co]

slow down a little...800 to 850 is plenty with a 230.
size larger...you only have 1/2 over...typically need 1 to 2 over.

you also have a large spread in velocity...did you trim all the case to length ?? cause it looks like varying crimps giving velocity differences.

my friendly calculator says pressure is ok....under 20kpsi( how long is the bbl on a 80 ?? still 5 or shorter....i used 5, if shorter then might have higher pressure).

[geargnasher]

Yup, too hard, too small, too fast, powder too hot.

Try air cooled wheel weights, try for .4525" or fatter, 850 fps, and Unique, HS6, Longshot, or (dare I say it) Blue Dot, or any other brand in that burn rate range.

Gear

[Recluse]

I just received my lubersizer a couple of days ago. I have also got a new lee 2 cavity LRNPB that has a lube groove. I have not had a chance to smelt any more WW's yet to try it out. I just loaded up the lubersizer with the RCBS lube that came with it. Before the weekend is out I will know, thanks for the speedy reply!

I'll also go with Fred on the air-cooling your boolits, but rather than walking away from the LLA, try mixing some Johnson Paste Wax with it. I use this mix for several of my tumble-lube boolit loads/configurations with superb results.

For what it's worth, I have a Series 70 Gov't that leads anytime it even gets near a bucket of wheelweights, let alone gets a magazine or two of lead-projectiles fired through it.

Does not matter the powder/load combo, lube type or amount, size of boolit, humidity or temperature, which hand I'm shooting with, which hemisphere or solar system I'm shooting in. . . nothing. That gun just flat leads. It also fouls like crazy with jacketed rounds, hence my shooting lead through it.

Easier--as in MUCH--to clean lead than fouling.

I use Bret's method of 0000 steel-wool soaked in Hoppes or Ed's Red and used to scrub the barrel good. Lead gone, bore shiny, me happy.

:coffee:

[Bass Ackward]

You always got options. I'm lazy.

So if I had stuff already made up in your configuration, I would drop to about 4.2 grains and just shoot and clean. Be more stubborn than the gun. Eventually it will clean up and you can walk on up.

If I didn't have hard slugs already molded, then I would do what they suggest.

[iammarkjones]

1 - Since I am currently out of my last batch of cast boolits I will drop the quench before I do anything else. I will pour 50 rounds with my LLA mold (lee 90350 <230 gr LRNPB bullet>).
2- Another suggestion I received in a PM was to check my COAL. I know mine is short for this barrel so I will set my dies for a few thousands off the rifling and again try 50 unquenched if I still get leading after dropping my quench cycle.
I will record all my data on each change and post it here. Thanks for the help!

[GabbyM]

You want to allow the LLA to dry for two days at least befoer laoding.

[GabbyM]

1 - Since I am currently out of my last batch of cast boolits I will drop the quench before I do anything else. I will pour 50 rounds with my LLA mold (lee 90350 <230 gr LRNPB bullet>).
2- Another suggestion I received in a PM was to check my COAL. I know mine is short for this barrel so I will set my dies for a few thousands off the rifling and again try 50 unquenched if I still get leading after dropping my quench cycle.
I will record all my data on each change and post it here. Thanks for the help!

If your COL is short and using the max charge listed of 5.0 grains you may be running hotter than you think. I have notes here showing 4.7 grains of BE with higher velocity than Lyman list for the 5.0 grain load. WW 231 and other powders in that burn rate are better if you are wanting max loads. Bullseye gives the bullet quite a kick in the tail followed by rapid acceleration.

[HeavyMetal]

Why are you using a large rifle primer??

I will suggest you try pan lubing a batch with another type of lube such as Carnuba Red.

Never had much luck with the liquid alox mostly because of the mess and the wait time.

Looked at your velocity for the 6 rounds you fired except for the one rund nothing real extreme here and even with the one round going 922 it's with in reason for mixed un trimmed brass.

Suggest sizeing to .452 as your first change.

[gray wolf]

45 acp Colt series 80 Government, barrel slugs at 00.4515Federal #150 large rifle primer.
5.0 grains of Alliant Bullseye powderpushing a lee 90350 <230 gr LRNPB bullet>
I cast these with wheel weight alloy and water quenchedLee liquid alox lube generous application not cut
The bullets were sized to .4520 (+/-00.0005)

Your bullets are two small, If you are accurate in your measurements Then you are shooting bullets that are almost the size of the barrel. If your barrel is .4515 then I would size to at least .4525--or .453
5 grains of B/E is about a max load for a 230 grain jacketed bullet. A little hot but push come to shove you should be able to make that work. I don't recommend it, but I don't think it's your main problem. B/E powder is a very popular powder for the 45 ACP. At this point I would not remove it from the equation. Perhaps back it off a bit. Just jumping to 5 grains is not the way to work up a load anyway. But that can be discussed latter.
stop the water dropping and only air cool. 45 ACP DO NOT NEED WATER DROPPING.


2- Another suggestion I received in a PM was to check my COAL. I know mine is short for this barrel so I will set my dies for a few thousands off the rifling and again try 50 unquenched if I still get leading after dropping my quench cycle.
I will record all my data on each change and post it here. Thanks for the help!

As for your over all size, You may be able to use your barrel for setting the over all length.
Take the barrel out of the pistol and seat a bullet long, so it does not drop into the barrel and seat flush with the back of the barrel hood.
( make sure you remove the case mouth flare or it may not seat )
Then do the same thing over again until your round seats flush with the back of the barrel hood. As long as your round is not over max length that should be your O A L for that bullet.
Each bullet shape may be different, and should go through the same procedure.
Don't be afraid to contact the rifle-ling on a 45 ACP.
I don't think you are going to see a big difference in your condition until you size up your bullets at least a .0015 larger. I doubt that not water quenching will do it.


Federal #150 large rifle primer.
Not recommend --USE pistol primers.
And yes--do not use a short OAL with a max load.

Sam

[Edubya]

After trying my best to absorb all of the information I could from you guys, I still have an issue I need help with. Here is the data I have gathered.

.45 acp Colt series 80 Government, barrel slugs at 00.4515
Federal #150 large rifle primer.
5.0 grains of Alliant Bullseye powder
pushing a lee 90350 <230 gr LRNPB bullet>
I cast these with wheel weight alloy and water quenched
Lee liquid alox lube generous application not cut


I see three things that need to be corrected. I have copied those three in bold. You will not get satisfactory lubrication by using Alox without the cutting. As has been suggested, add a little JPW (read the sticky on http://tinyurl.com/Tumble-Lube ) The large rifle primer might be pushing the boolit into the lands before the powder ignites. You didn't mention your COL but if that is under 1.25" it could be a contributing factor. Also, measure your finished cartridge at the lip of the case. The external dimensions will depend somewhat on your brass thickness but should be about .472". You might measure some of the brass walls, double that and add that measurement to the .452". If you're crimping them down too tightly you will be swagging the boolit down.
I also agree that you should start a new load at a lower charge.

EW

[Gohon]

I agree with Gray Wolf. Get away from the water dropping, especially for a 45 ACP and move up to .453 or .454 size on the cast. Straight casts of 247 grains of WW and 2%tin dropped from the mould at .454 is all I shoot and I get no leading at all. All I ever lube with is LLA cut with 40% JPW and that is even with rifle loads. There is nothing wrong with LLA. It works just as good as other lubes regardless of what others say. Over the years I've gotten away from this hard cast fad and everything I shoot is in the 11-15 BHN. Most right at 12 BHN. With gas checks I've pushed these up to 2400 fps and without gas checks 1800 fps is easy with no leading and great accuracy. The simple trick is bullet to bore fit which tops everything else. With the 45 ACP, forget COL recommendations. Use your barrel as a gauge for your guns required COL.

[StarMetal]

I can see the poster getting confused when some of the repliers here don't know the difference between a Federal Large Pistol Primer F150, a Federal Large Rifle Primer F210, and a typing error.

I'd like to say that I have shot just about every kind of alloy from my 45acps (notice that means Colt, S&W, Ruger, Thompson, H&K, Glock, Italian Scorpion, etc.) and have not found one iota difference between shooting air cooled or harden bullets......except the different on the nose of the bullet skidding up the feed ramp.

My only advice is going to be cut that powder charge back if you want to use Bullseye and get a real lube instead of LLA. Load your OAL by taking the barrel out of your pistol and using it for a cartridge gauge.

[iammarkjones]

Guys I am sorry brain fart on the primer they are fed 150 but large pistol. I was tired on that first post. Great advise from you all and thank you! I have heard that fit is king with cast. If I want a .4525 boolit from a .452 sizer die I am into opening a die right?

[StarMetal]

I was pretty sure that is what had happened with the primer.

[captaint]

Yes, Open that die some, maybe nearly to .453. I shoot LLA/JPW and have no problems in my 1911's. I think your boolits are too hard and too small. enjoy Mike

[scrapcan]

When you sized the first batch using LLA, did you lube run thru psh thru and then re lube?

I think if you lower the load a bit and re lube the LLA bullets (cut it with JPW or as instructed) you may find that you bullets run just fine.

You also might tell us what you are seeing for leading. Some guns will run very well showing just a little leading on leading edge of grooves. If the leading does appear to progress and you see no signs of changing pressures, you might just get lucky with what you have. The following is one such experience I had with one of my 1911 clones.

I have a thompson/auto ordance clone that with stock barrel will lead with everything tried in it, but only the noticeable steaking on the leading edge. The leading never gets any worse and it will run until it is so dirty that those around you will ask you to please clean it out of pitty. When I swap that barrel out for an aftermarket fitted barrel, all fo those issues go away. The stock barrel now sits in the spare parts section of the range bag.

[fredj338]

Does not matter the powder/load combo, lube type or amount, size of boolit, humidity or temperature, which hand I'm shooting with, which hemisphere or solar system I'm shooting in. . . nothing. That gun just flat leads. It also fouls like crazy with jacketed rounds, hence my shooting lead through it.
This is true/ Some bbls just are rough as a cobb & will lead regardless. Fire lapping is about the only thing to do with them & that has it's own problems.

[iammarkjones]

When you sized the first batch using LLA, did you lube run thru psh thru and then re lube?


No I did not I sized them dry :shock:.


I think if you lower the load a bit and re lube the LLA bullets (cut it with JPW or as instructed) you may find that you bullets run just fine.

The JPW is that just the yellow can stuff from the grocery store?

I wish my camera was good enough to get a clear shot of the leading. What I am getting appears like shavings to start and within 50 rounds it's bad I cant hold in 12" at 25 yards.

[StarMetal]

Manley gave you some good advice. Here's what I would do. Cut that Bullseye charge to 4.0. Your bullet size is fine, don't let anyone tell you it's too small. The thing that I have a problem with is the large charge of Bullseye, which I addressed, and the lube. If you don't have a luber sizer such as a Lyman or RCBS you can rub lube into those small grooves. If you would like to try I'll send you some for nothing. Just send me your address in a pm. It's messy but works. Or you could use the lube I send and pan lube if you have a cutter to cut the bullets out of the then hardened lube. You can make a cutter out of a say a 45-70 case. Manley told you right on what leading he sees in his 45's. Like he said some barrels will just lead. Being the rifling is very very shallow in 45 acp barrels I'd rather see you shoot some jacketed out of it rather then fire lapping or hand lapping. Then clean it well.

[Gohon]

If I want a .4525 boolit from a .452 sizer die I am into opening a die right?

Not necessarily...............check the size as dropped from the mould. You might find what you need without even resizing. I have several moulds that I can shoot the bullets as dropped.

[StarMetal]

Even though a sizer dies has .452 stamped on it, it may not necessarily be that size and more importantly your bullet will spring back some even if the die is a true .452 on the button. Mic a bullet after you size it see what you have.

[paborn]

I agree with the comments on increasing bullet diameter, use of a good lube, and moderate velocity with pistol primers.
Of particular interest are the comments on using the barrel as a case length guage.
Back in the old days (40 years ago and very poor) when all of my 45 brass was mixed range pickup, case overall length would very greatly. I'd throw out any case over maximum, and load to headspace on the bullet using the barrel as a guage to get the round flush with the hood. Usually this resulted in about 1/32 or so of bullet in front of the case mouth that engaged the rifeling. These rounds so loaded served well in NRA 2700 competition until I could afford good brass.
As an aside, this method was the only way to get any accuracy out of the 38 super I was using at the time, as the old colt barrels headspaced on the bitty little ledge on the barrel hood. Loading using this method to control headspace turned it into a tack driver. Eventually colt made 38 super barrels that headspaced on the case mouth. My 2 cents for what it's worth.

[iammarkjones]

StarMetal I just received my new RCBS Lube-A-Matic and a 2 Lee 2-Cavity Bullet Mold 452-228-1R (452 Diameter) 228 Grain 1 Ogive Radius from Midway. I had planned to do a small test pour this weekend. The boolits I have referenced so far have been from older pouring sessions for a different weapon. I extremely interested in trying to work this out one variable change at a time. I will of course post all my data here. Thanks for your help so far!

[Gohon]

If I want a .4525 boolit from a .452 sizer die I am into opening a die right?

That's it, just plain old Johnson Paste Was in the yellow can. I just spoon out what I need to cut one bottle of LLA, microwave it in a measuring jar until it is liquid and pour it into the bottle of LLA. Shake it up some and your set. The LLA will turn a lighter brown and actually be a little thinner. The JPW does not turn back into a paste when mixed as such. Since you now have the Lube-A Matic you probable won't be using this mixture but should you decide to, you now know how.

[mpmarty]

I am lazy! Very lazy. I hate cleaning lead out of pistols. I shoot 45acp as cast and lube with LLA/JPW exclusively. I don't get any leading in any of my five pistols. My load is 4.7gr Red Dot over LP primers by Wolf (I'm cheap too).:bigsmyl2:

[robertbank]

mpmarty to get the lead out wrap 100% copper Chor Boy strands around an old cleaning brush. Chor Boy or a substitute can be had at your local grocery store. They are kitchen pot cleaing pads.A couple of swipes and you will have all the lead out of your barrel. I switched to Felix lube and/or soft lube and the leading in my .45acp pistols disappeared. I size to .356 using WW alloy. ARe you getting leading in the first half inch of your barrel?

Take Care

Bob

[StarMetal]

StarMetal I just received my new RCBS Lube-A-Matic and a 2 Lee 2-Cavity Bullet Mold 452-228-1R (452 Diameter) 228 Grain 1 Ogive Radius from Midway. I had planned to do a small test pour this weekend. The boolits I have referenced so far have been from older pouring sessions for a different weapon. I extremely interested in trying to work this out one variable change at a time. I will of course post all my data here. Thanks for your help so far!

Mark,

Just let me know what I can help you with either here or pm.

[StarMetal]

Marty,

Depends how many rounds you put through your barrel and how leaded it gets. With normal little leading a bronze/brass brush is good enough. If it is too thick you can use the choreboy like Robertbanks said and if you have some stubborn thin spots use the 0000 steel wool such as Bret said.

[bruce381]

""My only advice is going to be cut that powder charge back if you want to use Bullseye and get a real lube instead of LLA. Load your OAL by taking the barrel out of your pistol and using it for a cartridge gauge."'

I agree goos advice and should fix problem get a real lube and drop to 4.5 bullseye

[Gohon]

get a real lube instead of LLA

LLA is real lube and to say other wise is just plain silly as tens of thousands of users can attest to. It works very well and in most cases it works better than standard old fashion ways of applying lube. That's right......old fashion. There is no problem of lube being to hard or to soft or smearing down the sides or requiring heaters or running out of the grooves in hot weather or any of that stuff. One doesn't have to stand over the kitchen stove and mix concoctions together or come up with some kind of cookie cutter. It's simply a personal choice and nothing more. Only problem with LLA is the bullets don't look pretty. I'm beginning to think some have sunk so much money into their lube set up they just can't stand it when there is a simpler and less costly way of doing things that work just as well.

Get over it..........LLA is real lube and it works just as well as anything anyone else can come up with and it is much cheaper to boot.

[robertbank]

Marty,

Depends how many rounds you put through your barrel and how leaded it gets. With normal little leading a bronze/brass brush is good enough. If it is too thick you can use the choreboy like Robertbanks said and if you have some stubborn thin spots use the 0000 steel wool such as Bret said.

While I respect both you Joe, and Bret please leave the steel wool in the drawer. Strands from Chor Boy 100% copper pads will take all the leading out of a barrel in short order with no damage to the barrel.

To the original poster I have found soft lubes in pistols work best in pistols applications.

You may have a rough cut barrel and if you do then you likely will get leading no matter what you use. Assuming you don't then try a sofgt lube such as the Felix lube or 50 - 50 alox or any of the commercial products out there. Also check to see your bullets are being undersized.

Take Care

Bob

[mike in co]

i mentioned coal in my post as a potential issue...
so what was the coal of the original load ??


mike in co

[mooman76]

I hate to add more advice after all you got and get you more confused but usuing LLA straight is too thick and unnecessary. While it may have nothing to do with your leading it is not needed that thick and being that thick will gunk up everything it touches. A thin coat is pletty. I have used LLA with no issues as far as leading. I have not tried to use the mix with JPW yet but plan to next time I TL. I also would load unsized if your gun will permit it.

[Bass Ackward]

While I respect both you Joe, and Bret please leave the steel wool in the drawer. Strands from Chor Boy 100% copper pads will take all the leading out of a barrel in short order with no damage to the barrel.


Bob


Wow Bob. I use steel to both blue and to polish blued guns. If it isn't hurting bluing, how does it hurt a barrel?

[243winxb]

Air cool. Size to .452" To use Lee liquid alox lube with ww, reduce the powder charge from 5gr. If you must load 5.0gr of bullseye, add tin to the wheel weights.

[chris in va]

Here's my recipe that works perfectly in my Sig 220, if it helps any.

Lee 230gr LRN TL boolit (no sizing, drops at .452)
Towel dropped (air cooled)
LLA light application, thinned with mineral spirits
Near minimum powder charge
CCI LP primers

Just for the heck of it, I bumped up the Unique charge to 10% from max. Hefty recoil and LOTS of leading. I don't even want to shoot the rest of them.

[XWrench3]

i have the same trouble with my semi-auto. my next move is to try what fredj338 has already stated. no more waterdrop. it does make them a lot harder, especially using straight wheel weights. i am really starting to think that may be a big mistake. also, i mix a small amount of powdered moly in with my lee liquid alox to help with the lube duties. seems to help some, but it does not take care of all the problems.