Marlin 1894 in .44 vs .45

[Marlin Junky]

I want to buy one of these carbines when I can actually find them again and my selection will be based on which one has the larger list of good plain base mold designs available for it. I'm not just looking for plinking type accuracy but molds that cast boolits that really fit the barrel well. I've heard the .44 needs to have a .432" boolit and I know even less about the barrel dimensions of the .45. I have heard the .45 chambers can run somewhat oversize. I don't care about the 38" twist of the .44 unless it will be a hindrance to top accuracy at plain base velocities with 250 to 300 grain boolits. If I need to cut wads out of card board or whatever, that's not a problem... I just don't want to pay for .44 or .45 gaschecks at today's inflated prices. A gascheck maker is also a possibility in the future but I want to concentrate on PB designs for now.

Any actual hands on experience with either or both of these carbines (I'm not interested in the early .45 Cowboy) will be appreciated.

Thank you,
MJ

[Wally]

I have a USRA94AE--I did have a Marlin awhile back..both in the .44 Magnum caliber. I never could get the Marlin to shoot PB bullets well, but will admit that I never tried using bullets at .432" sizes. The 94 works well with PB cast bullets sized to .431". I now use a Freechex tool to make my own and feel that yes, gas checked bulets are preferable in a carbine.

[geargnasher]

I can't give you direct experience with the guns you mention, but as far as boolits and cartridges go, I would opt for the .45 Colt every time due to lower pressures (much longer case life compared to .44mag unless you downsize your load), much broader PB and BB production mould selection for tube mag guns, and IF your chamber is much oversized (dimensions for.45 Colt chambers vary widely), it's a simple thing to get a Lee carbide sizing die and use the decapping pin from a Lee universal decapping die in it (longer) set deep enough to just "neck size" the area where the boolit sits and leave most of the case body intact, while still decapping in the same operation. I don't expect you'll have feeding issues if you do this, other calibers in Marlins I've tried don't, and shoot much better with tighter-fitting brass.

I get 1070 fps out of my Uberti Henry .45 Colt using midrange data for STANDARD (SAA-type) pressure data and pb and bb boolits around 250 grains and 980 using 305 grain pb. No leading, and I'm using Felix lube.

I personally wouldn't ever use cardboard wads like you say, too much risk of chamber ringing if they get on top of the powder and leave an air gap underneath the boolit. If you need a filler, use Dacron.

Gear

[Marlin Junky]

I personally wouldn't ever use cardboard wads like you say, too much risk of chamber ringing if they get on top of the powder and leave an air gap underneath the boolit. If you need a filler, use Dacron.

Gear

I would only use a wad on a 100% density load of say 4227 or 4759... you know, something bulky. Thanks for your input but I'm looking for a little more speed... perhaps 1300 to 1500 fps or whatever full tilt PB velocities are in these guns. I know there's a lot of variables here like bore uniformity, groove depth, etc. which is why I'm trying to do my research in advance.

Thank you,
MJ

[Piedmont]

I don't think the wad is a problem as long as it stays on the base of the bullet which it will if you let the bullet seat the wad. The problem would be if for some reason you thought pushing the wad down on the powder would be a good idea.

[Marlin Junky]

I don't think the wad is a problem as long as it stays on the base of the bullet which it will if you let the bullet seat the wad. The problem would be if for some reason you thought pushing the wad down on the powder would be a good idea.

Right, and a tight fitting wad shouldn't be able to settle down on the powder charge either, but let's please not fly off on a tangent here. I'd like to have a discussion about the attributes of the Marlin .44 vs. the .45 with respect to PB boolits. Specifically, which one has the most workable choices available to the boolit caster. Simply counting all the molds out there in the two calibers isn't a good solution as some have found out, many of those molds cast undersize.

Thanks again,
MJ

[fredj338]

Right, and a tight fitting wad shouldn't be able to settle down on the powder charge either, but let's please not fly off on a tangent here. I'd like to have a discussion about the attributes of the Marlin .44 vs. the .45 with respect to PB boolits. Specifically, which one has the most workable choices available to the boolit caster. Simply counting all the molds out there in the two calibers isn't a good solution as some have found out, many of those molds cast undersize.

Thanks again,
MJ
For lever action use, I think the edge goes to the 45colt. Lots of bullet styles available that will feed well in the lever gun. You'll likely have fine reuslts going 0.452" but slugging is always best.

[Gohon]

I have no experience with the .44 but with the .45, I cast from a Lee PB mould (452-255-RF) which actually drops at 247 grains and .454 diameter using WW and 2% tin. Lubed with LLA and ahead of 18 grains of 2400 I'm showing 1509 fps with good accuracy and no leading. I've run these up to 20.5 grains of 2400 for 1658 fps and still great accuracy and no leading from either the 1894 or the Buffalo Classic. BHN of my alloy is right at 12 and I shoot them as dropped from the mould.

[geargnasher]

MJ, the bottom line with the .45 Colt is SURFACE AREA. You can get near .44 Magnum energy levels with literally HALF the pressure, and that is extremely important when going sans gas check. The less pressure you have on the base per square inch, the better your PB boolits will perform.

FWIW,

Gear

[Glen]

I like them both, but if I had to choose only one there would be no choice, I would go with the .45 Colt, hands down. For the reasons why, see:

http://www.lasc.us/FryxellMarlin1894.htm

[44man]

I have no problems with PB in the .44.
My problem is with the stupid twist rate.
Don't know about the .45 but I bet it is wrong too.

[StarMetal]

Jim,

You're probably right about the 45 Colt twist, it's very slow, but....mine shoots everything I feed it pretty well. It will shoot 255-260 grain SWC at 100 yards very accurate. I don't see having to shoot a 45 Colt much further then that.

[44man]

I just seen the .45 is 1 in 16 and that is correct so that is the one I would buy.
You will go nuts with the .44, sometimes getting a tiny group at 50 but spraying the backstop at 100.

[StarMetal]

Jim

I also have the Win 94 Trapper in 45 Colt and it has the faster twist then the Marlin, but I can tell you that it will sent that big SWC out there pretty far and accurate too because I shot plenty of groundhogs with it.

[Calamity Jake]

45C and don't look back I love mine, there is a wide selection of boolits in about any nose shape you want. My Marlin is a 94C 24" it shoots the Saeco 955 a 260 gr rnfp @ .454 real well, my powder of choice is RD for light loads and 2400 for the heavy stuff.

[44man]

Jim

I also have the Win 94 Trapper in 45 Colt and it has the faster twist then the Marlin, but I can tell you that it will sent that big SWC out there pretty far and accurate too because I shot plenty of groundhogs with it.
Yeah, the .45 should be the same in the trapper and Marlin. Or close.
But the .44 Marlin is a misfit.

[44man]

Someone has to explain to me why most .44 lever guns have the wrong twist, also the Ruger semi auto had it wrong. Greenhill junk.

[JesterGrin_1]

If you like Marlin then I would opt for the 45 Colt.

If you are looking for the .44 Mag then look at Puma or Winchester.

I have the Marlin 1894SS in .44 Mag and did not have much luck with plain base and decided to stay with a Gas Check and even then the accuracy is not what I would call great. But it all depends on what one can live with as far as how accurate a rifle is and what distance they will use them for and for what type of game.

I have given the load I settled on many times here on the forum for the .44 Mag with the Lee 310Gr RNFP/GC that will give me 2 1/2 groups down to about 2 in at 100 yards through a scope but that is the best that it will do. So since most of my shots start at 100 yards and out to about 175 yards I do not really trust the Marlin in .44 Mag to be accurate enough for hunting. So I plan to remove the scope and use a good set of peep sights and regulate the rifle to a truck and field carry rifle should I run across a Hog or a snake or any other game that would get close enough to use the rifle. As I do like the Marlin as it is easy to carry and swings well in the brush of which I feel the lever action is really at home with short range use and thick brush.

But I do have to say I also have a Marlin 1894 in .357 Mag that is very accurate at 100 yards I get 3/4 groups and better as well as the Marlin 1895GS in 45-70 of which I have used for Deer and Hog.

[Marlin Junky]

Would the .357 launching cast boolits be enough gun against mountain lion? I don't have a problem gaschecking .357's because I stocked up on Hornady .35 caliber gaschecks when they were dirt cheap. Also, I noticed from Marlin's website that the "non-cowboy" 1894 is only available in .357 and .44. If I want a .45 Marlin, I need to get in line for an 1894 Cowboy and pay through the nose... no thanks to that.

I don't know much about the Winchester '92 clones and wonder about the quality of the steel used for the action parts since I like to stone triggers and sears to provide a light pull. The '92 clones would all be top eject anyway and I would want to switch between receiver sights and a low power scope (perhaps a 1.5-5X VXIII). A friend has a '94 AE with the hammer block safety in .45C and I just won't spend Yankee green backs for one of those. Sorry if I offended anyone but that thing is Winchesters answer to a question nobody asked.

If there's anyone out there who owns an 1894C with Ballard rifling, I'd like to know what the internal barrel dimensions are. I'm sure most of the predators and varmints on my property can be dispatched by a .357 rifle and I can always grab a bigger gun if the mountain lions get hungry enough to pay us a visit.

Thanks,
MJ

P.S. I'd also like to know the internal barrel dimensions on the .44 and .45 (just in case I run into the latter at a gunshow). I've got a Ballard rifled .444 and even though Marlin calls it deep-cut rifling the bore diameter is approx. .426" and the groove diameter .431"; i.e., the lands are less than .003" high. It shoots GC boolits just fine up to 300 grain factory velocities; however, PB boolits need to go real slow to produce any level of accuracy at all.

[JesterGrin_1]

I am sure the .357 will handle a Mountain Lion but I have never felt a desire to shoot one and do not think I ever will. They are beautiful animals in the wild. Same thing with Bob Cats.I have been around a number of them in the wild and never had a problem. Even made a semi pet out of a Mountain Lion some time ago during a lazy winter fishing in the south texas hill country. Kinda neat to have a full grown mountain lion walking with you. :)

I have been using the Hornady 180Gr HP/XTP in my Marlin 1894 with great results with H-110 powder.

[JesterGrin_1]

I would like to throw something else in here. Even though you have asked about the 45 Colt and the .44 Mag I think you should look hard at the Marlin 1895GS in 45-70 as they are a bit shorter than the 44 and 45 not to mention you can load them from mild to wild with 300Gr Bullets up to 500Gr Bullets and they are very accurate. I tend to like the Ranch Dog 350GR RNFP/GC but they will also shoot plain base great as well. I would consider the 1895 as a great all around gun for ranges of 200 yards and less depending on the load.

Marlin 1894SS in .44 Mag shows a weight of 6 lbs. advertised with a overall length of 37.5 and the

Marlin 1895 GS in 45-70 shows a weight of 7 lbs. advertised with an overall length of 37 in.

[Marlin Junky]

JesterGrin_1,

Just to address your two points:

I would never hunt mountain lion. I'd only shoot one if he wanted to make a meal out of one of my animals (horse, dog, whatever).

Second point... I don't plan on fouling any of my barrels with copper patched boolits.

I'm still interested in .44 and .45 Marlin barrel dimensions.

MJ

[Marlin Junky]

To reply to your following post:

I think you're talking about the Guide Gun and if I'm not mistaken, they are somewhat heavier than the 1894's. I'm interested in something my 110# 5'1" wife can also enjoy.

MJ

[JesterGrin_1]

That is why I brought up the 1895GS Marlin they are only 1 pound more than the 44 or the 45 and are more accurate with plain base or gas check and can be loaded mild for anyone to enjoy as well as wild to take probably anything on earth. I gave the weight between the 44 and 45-70 above along with length.

Go here for the chamber drawing for the .44 Mag http://www.ranchdogmolds.com/Ranch_Dog_Molds/Marlin%20Leverguns/Gas%20Checked%20Bullets/TLC432-265-RF/Chamber/44%20Mag/slides/TLC432265RF_Marlin_336-44_44Mag.html

But as others have said you would need a size .432 for the Marlin in .44.

Sorry I have not worked up a load with cast with the Marlin 1894 in .357 as of yet but I will. :)

[Marlin Junky]

That is why I brought up the 1895GS Marlin they are only 1 pound more than the 44 or the 45 and are more accurate with plain base or gas check and can be loaded mild for anyone to enjoy as well as wild to take probably anything on earth. I gave the weight between the 44 and 45-70 above along with length.

Sometimes the advertised weight isn't exactly the actual weight and a whole pound can make a big difference in the way a rifle handles. The 1894 in .44M also has 1.5" more barrel than the Guide Gun (20" vs. 18.5").

MJ

[Marlin Junky]

Someone has to explain to me why most .44 lever guns have the wrong twist, also the Ruger semi auto had it wrong. Greenhill junk.

I'm thinking the lazy twist is a throw back to the 44/40 which used 200 or so grain boolits. When the .44M was "standardized" at 1:20" in a revolver, it beats me why the carbine companies didn't follow suit. The only reasoning I would suspect is they figured 1:38" was quick enough from a circa 20" barrel and nobody would ever shoot anything heavier than factory ammo... I guess.

I do wonder how the .44 Marlin 1894 does on paper at 100 yards or a bit further. I do indeed plan on shooting this thing beyond 50 yards.

MJ

[JesterGrin_1]

I have given a bunch of info to the best of my knowledge on these Marlin Lever Guns and there are also a bunch of threads on them as well on this good site.

So from what I keep reading the 1895 is too heavy and the 44 does kick some for some people so really I think the best choice is the Marlin 1894 in .357 Mag they are light and do not kick all that much. I keep the 1894 Marlin in .357 Mag because I can hand it to anyone and they can shoot it comfortably. And the .357 round from a rifle is no slouch.

[JesterGrin_1]

The best as said I have ever done with a scope on average from my Marlin 1894SS in .44 Mag is 2 to 2 1/2 groups at 100 yards. But that is with the Lee 310Gr RNFP GC with 21.0Gr of W-296 and a CCI standard LPP in win brass.

[Marlin Junky]

I keep the 1894 Marlin in .357 Mag because I can hand it to anyone and they can shoot it comfortably. And the .357 round from a rifle is no slouch.

How much 296 can you get behind a 200 grain boolit and still be able to run the rounds through the magazine and into the chamber?

MJ

[JesterGrin_1]

Sorry never have used a 200Gr Boolit in the .357 Mag. I do have a mold for the NOE 360180 RNFP GC but I have not had a chance to work up a load for it as of yet.

I have used the Lyman 358665 160Gr but only in .38 Sp to this point.

But for a 200Gr bullet I would work with 12.5 to 13Gr of W-296

Forgot to add Do use a Mag Primer in the .357 with either H-110 or W-296

[Marlin Junky]

But for a 200Gr bullet I would work with 12.5 to 13Gr of W-296

Interesting you should come to that conclusion! I've used 12.5 to 13.0 grains of 296 in .38Spl cases with the 360-220 GB boolit (approx. 223 grains ready-to-fly) in a Ruger Blackhawk and shoved 'em out the 6" barrel at right around 1200 fps. I may be chronographing those loads from a friends 1894C tomorrow... probably to be singly fed because the rounds are 1.66+" long.

MJ

[Ole]

What you got against buying gas checks? Those guys that make gas checks need to eat too. :mrgreen:

[JesterGrin_1]

Some good reading on the .357, .44 , . 45 Colt http://www.lasc.us/FryxellMarlin1894.htm

And this is how to fix the Marlin to accept a longer OAL cartridge. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=7750

[Bass Ackward]

Mj. Are you a graduate of WhatsamattaU?

If she has one, what you got? You need one of each.

Problem solved.

[44man]

I'm thinking the lazy twist is a throw back to the 44/40 which used 200 or so grain boolits. When the .44M was "standardized" at 1:20" in a revolver, it beats me why the carbine companies didn't follow suit. The only reasoning I would suspect is they figured 1:38" was quick enough from a circa 20" barrel and nobody would ever shoot anything heavier than factory ammo... I guess.

I do wonder how the .44 Marlin 1894 does on paper at 100 yards or a bit further. I do indeed plan on shooting this thing beyond 50 yards.

MJ
What really griped me about my .44 was while working loads I would get a tiny group at 50 and then a shotgun at 100. Then I would shoot a great group at 100 so I would load more like it. Next time out, I had a shotgun again, sometimes I thought I was shooting buckshot. Then I would put 4 together and 1 would be missing, not even in the cardboard backing. I can't even duplicate the 4 together again.
I worked over the gun, contact points, etc, and tried every different way to rest it.
Then friends would bring over Marlin 30-30's and 45-70's that would poke the eye out of a squirrel at 100 with cast.
Every single boolit and load posted here has been tried.
I take my SBH down and shoot circles around the Marlin.
I can't even sell the gun to a friend because they have all tried to shoot it and don't want it. [smilie=b:
It costs a fortune to have a different barrel installed so when I get some money I am going to trade it off.
I blame myself for not doing any research before buying the thing.

[44man]

By the way, I made special molds up to .434" and different weights, then bought the RD 265 gr. None shoot like I want.
The bore is perfect with no tight spots and does not lead.
I tried soft to very hard alloys.
The barrel need heated in a forge and wound up with a pipe wrench!

[rollmyown]

I've just been through t he same dilema myself. I decided on the 45 Colt.One of the main motivations was the faster twist rate allowing for better stabilisation of heavier bullets but with similar energy. I have purchased the Mihec 270gn group buy mould for this rifle. I still have yet to slug the bore and order a die for my star lubesizer.It's a very long process but I hope to have some results within a month. Will keep you posted:smile:

[Marlin Junky]

Mj. Are you a graduate of WhatsamattaU?

If she has one, what you got? You need one of each.

Problem solved.

John,

Whatsatmean? Two 1894's in .357 or a .357 and a 1895G(GS) or something else??

MJ

[crabo]

What really griped me about my .44 was while working loads I would get a tiny group at 50 and then a shotgun at 100. Then I would shoot a great group at 100 so I would load more like it. Next time out, I had a shotgun again, sometimes I thought I was shooting buckshot. Then I would put 4 together and 1 would be missing, not even in the cardboard backing. I can't even duplicate the 4 together again.
I worked over the gun, contact points, etc, and tried every different way to rest it.


I had the same problem with my 94 357. I finally did a chamber cast as Bass told me to do much earlier, and I found out I had a very sloppy chamber. .362 boolits would chamber with no problem. I am having the barrel set back and a new chamber cut.

44man, did you ever do a chamber cast on that gun?

[Bass Ackward]

John,

Whatsatmean? Two 1894's in .357 or a .357 and a 1895G(GS) or something else??

MJ

Your origional question was 44 or 45. Before deciding that issue, you have already left the reservation. :grin:

I read on. Considering this is to be for your wife, the 357 offers great flexibility and economy, especially when you are set up for the bore diameter already. Regardless of size, most women enjoy a lighter recoiling rig. If they enjoy it more, then .........................................

As far as yourself, well, you'll get something that interests you.

[Lloyd Smale]

Ive got the same 44p that 44man does and mines the same. Its best is about 2 inch at 50 and 5.0 at a 100 but that is just one load i found. Most loads are at least twice that size. Some wont hardly stay on the paper at 50 let alone a 100. Its such a cute little rifle that i probably would never part with it. I guess the one load i use will suffice for most hunting id do with it anyway. Now my win. trapper is another thing. It shoots everything well and ive shot two inch 100 yard groups with the factory irons and if you knew my eyes youd know how good that is.

[44man]

I had the same problem with my 94 357. I finally did a chamber cast as Bass told me to do much earlier, and I found out I had a very sloppy chamber. .362 boolits would chamber with no problem. I am having the barrel set back and a new chamber cut.

44man, did you ever do a chamber cast on that gun?
No, but I have neck sized and gone as large as .434" boolits cast hard so the brass does not size them. Even made larger expanders so tension is correct with any alloy.
Now look at this, I took a case fired in the Marlin and it falls into my Ruger. The Ruger has a much larger chamber and all of you know how it shoots. Chambers are just not that important.

[Jack Stanley]

My experience in a nutshell ( or perhaps coffee cup if I get long winded ):coffee:

The Marlin line of rifles ; after shooting and loading for two 1894c carbines I used a hundred eighty-five grain LBT slug with a case full of accurate arms number nine . Sized at three five nine they work well .

My forty-four rifles have been the three thirty six models but I think they have the same twist but I don't know that . They need large bullets to work , I use .432" or .433" in the past I've used heavy bullets fast and they work good . Currently , I'm shooting a pile of the LEE two hundred grain "cowboy" bullets at around eleven hundred feet per second . Sorry I can't help ya with info of a 1894 in that caliber . I have some two hundred forty-five grain cast hollow points I use in this with a bunch of twenty-four hundred pushing and it seems to work good even though the bullets are sized a little small .

Both of these rifles needed reciever sights for me to get good accuracy . The little bore has Skinner sights front and rear the big bore has a Williams rear and factory front . I agree with you , I will not spend my money for a safety on a lever-action rifle .

The Colt carbine I used to have was a Winchester trapper and the only cast I use in it was a LEE two fifty-five round flat "cowboy looking" bullet . I never loaded it hot or shot it past fifty yards but it was very accurate to that range with such a short sight radius and my old eyes . I sized the slugs to .452" and never had an issue with it . I only sold it because I wanted to pursue using the forty-four carbine with a revolver using the same load and didn't want to buy a forty-five revolver .


Duzat hep yew eny ?

Jack

[44man]

The Marlin fired case is LOOSE in the Ruger. I can wiggle it side to side, so if you think a re-chamber will make the Marlin shoot, you will be wasting money.
The gun needs a different twist, plain and simple.

[mpmarty]

For all around flexibility I think the 1895 in 45/70 is very hard to beat. As to dispatching a cougar when we hunted the critters with dogs we killed them (treed) with .22 pistols and long rifle hollow points.

[longbow]

I can't help with the .44 vs. .45 question but do have an 1894 in .44 mag.

I like the gun but really have never gotten it to shoot really well.

I started out using the Lyman 429421 ~ mistake. The OAL if seated to the crimp groove is too long unless the cartridge stop is modified (which I didn't know could be done at the time). The SWC nose was a problem as was the shoulder in my gun at least, it just would not feed well.

Also accuracy was poor and leading pretty bad.

After much experimenting with a variety of loads and boolits including "J" bullets I accepted that it did not like heavy boolits over about 265 gr. (slow twist) and it did like large boolits of over 0.432".

I also found a lot of good info on the Marlin owners site. One tidbit that paid off was that Marlins apparently tend to have very large groove diameter (I found that out) and also tend to have tight spots under dovetails ~ that I did not know.

After running a slug all the way through the barrel, I found it did indeed have several tight spots so I lapped those out ~ very carefully hand lapped because there is not much depth to microgroove rifling. The leading issues seem to be solved now and accuracy improved some.

So to summarize, my findings for my gun:

- large groove diameter = 0.43215" needs larger than normal boolits
- typical Keith style SWC's did not feed well in my gun at all even when seated deep
- tight spots in the barrel
- screws need to be Loctited to keep them in
- proper fitting plain base boolit does not lead if the tight spots in the barrel are removed
- modified cartridge stop allows longer OAL
- modified carrier improved feeding of all boolits and made SWC's usable (not 100% but pretty good)

I am now getting pretty good results with boolits from home made moulds and also from the Mihec H&G #503 (Keith style SWC plain base ~ one mould is 0.432", the other was lapped to 0.434").

I suspect the .45 would suffer from the same issues but they are fixable if a problem.

Probably more info than you wanted.

Longbow