45 Auto Hunting Bullet

[joecool911]

Looking for a hunting bullet for my 45 auto. I am new to the auto scene. Generally shoot revolvers with big flat-nosed bullets. I will be carrying the the 1911 as a back up gun while elk and deer archery hunting. Used for black bear and cougar protection or just plain kills. Yes, in my state it is legal.

Hoping to find a bullet that will cycle and have a flat nose for a good wound channel.

[zuke]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=76889

That buy is closing very soon.

[joecool911]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=76889

That buy is closing very soon.

Would you choose the hollow or flat point option?

[HeavyMetal]

Think I'd also take a look at Lee's 200 grain RF boolit. Sheding 30 grains will net you a little more velocity which in turn nets you a little more penatration.

My opinion is it's caliber not weight that get the job done with the 45 auto. I will always go with a 200 grain boolit over the 230. Flater shooting, better velocity ( within reason) easier recoil.

I have used the Lee 200 Grain H&G copy and have been very impressed with it. Particularly on 7.5 grains of Unique. By the way this is a carry load not a "Plinking" load.

Use with Caution!

[anachronism]

230 gr LBT LFN. I bought a 4 cavity mould.

[zuke]

Would you choose the hollow or flat point option?

I got both, it wont cost all that much for the two.

[joecool911]

Think I'd also take a look at Lee's 200 grain RF boolit. Sheding 30 grains will net you a little more velocity which in turn nets you a little more penatration.

My opinion is it's caliber not weight that get the job done with the 45 auto. I will always go with a 200 grain boolit over the 230. Flater shooting, better velocity ( within reason) easier recoil.

My experience with heavier revolvers would lead me to believe that heavier and slower makes a bigger wound channel. But with more velocity like in the 1,500 fps range and 3oo+ grain bullets.

[HeavyMetal]

Joe you are absolutely correct, If you have 1500 FPS and a 300 grain boolit you will make a bigger wound channel.

However I am "short" load info that produces those numbers in a 45 Auto!

So that's kinda of an Apples and Oranges comparision.

In the 45 Auto platforms, with the 45 ACP case, I'll stand behind my suggestion of a 200 grain boolit rather than a 230.

Some years ago a friend of my sons wanted to do an unusual sicence project that involved shooting and penatration tests. Several rounds, 45-70, 38 special, 22 LR and the 45 Auto were tested in several different types of "media" and presented to the public.

Of interest here was the testing of the 45 ACP round in a standard 1911 Colt government model.

My 7.5 grain Unique load with the 200 grain Lee H&G 68 copy against Military WCC ball ammo.

Two test objects used were an old truck door, left and right hand sides and 3/4 inch ply wood stacked 14 layers ( 3/4 inch to a layer) thick.

In both tests ( and I will admit these are both very limited and might prove nothing) My load out performed the WCC ball load.

The ball rounds were found in the truck door after firing from 15 yards my load went trough and exited the other side! Both doors were shot with the windows rolled down and in the same area.

The plywood was the real surprise for me! These were cut 14 inch x 14 inch and it was fairly easy to get 4 rounds in each stack. The sides were then taped with duct tape so they could be opened like a book by viewers at the science fair.

The WCC ball rounds went through 9 layers of plywood and dented the 10th. My load went thrugh 10 layers and half way through the 11th. All my Cast boolits were stuck in the 11th layer of plywood when they were inspected.

My thoughts on this were simple: my load was a touch faster and lead is "slippery'er" than copper so I "won".

So if I was gonna do what you say your gonna do what load do you think I'd carry in my 1911?

[fredj338]

Think I'd also take a look at Lee's 200 grain RF boolit. Sheding 30 grains will net you a little more velocity which in turn nets you a little more penatration.

Use with Caution!
I like & shoot that bullet, works well in the 45acp in most pistols. Cast hard, pushed to 950fps, it pentrates all day.

[Bret4207]

I can tell you that the BD45 GB will take coyote, woodchuck and feral dogs with no issue at 850-875 fps.

[GabbyM]

200 grain bullet hard cast is the way to go. H&G 68 SWC at 950 fps. Minimum. You do not want any expansion. Black bear are tough as a bear. You need maximum penetration and even then a 45 acp is marginal. H&G #68 or one of the many clone bullets will penetrate better than any bullet I know of. 200 grain RNFP would probably do so so also. I've just never seen penetration test on them. For the SWC you need a pistol that feeds them. Test I've seen on the #68 show they penetrate straight.

I've been bear hunting and seen a lot of bears shot with rifles. 8mm Mauser with five holes in a little, not even legal, 135 lb black. Lung shot with 30-06 REM Core Loc they go 250 yards like clock work. To soft a bullet.

Black bears will run away if they have a chance but if you shoot them with a little piss ant 45 acp they will be pissed off like you have never seen. If you are staring at a black bear that knows where you are don't even think about a heart lung shot with a 45 acp. They will eat you and have you half digested before they bleed out. Go for the base of skull shot or up through the skull. All depends upon your angle. If above don't aim between the eyes or you just blow through the roof of their mouth as you would on a coon. Aim for base of skull so you either get brain or spine. Off a couple inches and you are in trouble. Most of all I'd not recommend a 45 acp as an offensive shot.

My brother in law hit a 250 lb sow broadside with a 30-06 Rem 180gr and it spun a bit to end up facing him at his ground blind. Ran right through the blind chomping at the bullet hole. Collided with his rifle muzzle as he was trying to cycle in another round. Met up with him a couple hours later and he was still shaking. I saw the tracks going right through his blind so I know it's true. Bear was fond 250 yards out. She was knocked off her feet from the shot at fifty feet range. Just ran in the direction she was pointed in after she got back up. If she had known My BIL was their she would have chomped his head. She could feel the bullet hit and thought something had her so was biting at it with the bear chomp which can be heard for a mile. You see that with racoons shot with 22's. Those Remington bullets said High Shock right on the box. Well high shock is no bear bullet. 45 acp is no bear gun. I carried a 9mm with 125 grain Hornady 357 mag flat point bullets over 8 grains of blue dot. No bear gun either but sure beats a knife. After I saw how tough bears were I bought a 44 mag. I'd use a 357 mag 6inch barrel with 177 grain Lyman #358429 as minimum. I did end up chasing a wounded bear with a S&W 38 snub nose once. That will teach you not to leave your rifle behind just because a fellow tells you it's down dead. I do not consider a 45 acp better than a 38 snubby for bears. Either one is pitifull.

You do need a hand gun to go bear hunting. They tend to run into the worst thick brush where you can't move your rifle. One night tracking a shot bear through a wild black cherry swamp in UP of Michigan. I heard a noise. Probably a porcupine. I had my rifle forearm and flashlight in my left hand. Tried to point the light at the sound when my rifle barrel hooked into a cherry sapling fork. Sapling bent some so I kept pulling down until I about lifted my boots off the ground. Gave up and separated the light to shine on target while flinging my rifle around windmill style. Expecting to see an open mouth in my face. But nothing there except the sound of a little thirty pound critter running for it's life. This was the same trip where I chased a wounded bear with a 38 snubby. All I needed to spring for a 44 mag revolver. You put a hollow point in that 45 acp and you won't even get through the fat on a black bear. I don't even load HP's in my 44 mag for big critters. IMO you can get by with a 45 acp for back up but don't even think about starting it up with a blackie using that little pop gun. Cats are a different issue and they will just sit there letting you shoot holes in them untill they are dead. Cougars, Pumas , Panthers. They are not African Lions. You would have a hard time to convince me you shot a cat in self defense. Wouldn't fault you for shooting one but would not believe any tall tales of how it was attacking you. You'd not want to tell that story anyways as they only go for women and children who are week looking.

[Bret4207]

Different people have different experiences. I grew up in the heart of bear country and would have no issue carrying anything in the heavy 38 class on up.

[Bass Ackward]

My old auto bullet (no crimp groove) was a 260 LBT seated to 1.21 with 7.5 grains of AA#5. That was 875 fps out of a 5" tube at about 23k. (+P) Required the heavier spring. Still use that in a 625 today.

Close enough to the old Colt load to call it.

[honus]

I spent most of my adult life in Alaska, as a Gunsmith and part time guide. Big Bears, little Bears; all hard to kill and very hard to predict an outcome. I've put four 375s in one and he was breaking rocks with his teeth, but I've had them die in their tracks with one head shot from a smaller caliber.
One of my clients dropped a Brown Bear with a Browning HP with a shot in the chin as the Bear was standing over him, but I wouldn't attempt to repeat it. I love my 45s but would not count on them to stop an angry bear.

[Edubya]

I read an article by a hunting guide from Idaho taking a number of Chicago policemen on bear hunting trips and it all started when the first one came and got a bear with his .45 ACP service gun. The guide always had his rifle at the ready and still had a couple of scares. The policeman hit the bear 3 times and they were only 30' away. The bear just climbed on up to a higher perch on the tree. IIRC, the policeman shot it one more time before it fell to the ground and the guide said that the fall probably broke the bears neck.

You do what you want to but I ain't sure that I'd trust my life to the ability to hit the bear in the right spot before he had already digested me and the .45.

One suggestion; look at some ammo that is made for big game hunting and compare the energy (ft.lbs) that they produce at reasonable distances. Here is a site that shows some of what I mean: http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=67

EW

[joecool911]

I appreciate all the comments. I agree about the 45 being marginal. Thats why I have a 10mm on order. I had a 454 Casull and found it too heavy to pack all the time. That was a good bear gun, but if you dont have it on you...it doesn't do any good. Actually thinking about a snub nosed 44 mag alaskan.

[Larry Gibson]

joecoll911

"hunting" and "back up" are two different things. Back up will be at close range and the .45 ACP sure beats the alternative of "no firearm" when bow hunting. I bow hunted for some years and carried my Colt Combat Commander for the same reason you ask about. Never had to use it while bow hunting but I have killed 3 black bears with the .45 ACP; one with the Commander, one with a Government Model and one with a M1917 S&W. One was with The H&G #68 cast hard over 7.5 gr Unique and it took 5 shots (all heart/lung) before the bear was down for the count. Wound channels were all through and through with little damage other than the hole on the 200 lb+ black bear. In the GM and M1917 I used a GC 452490 cast very, very soft and HP'd with a Forster HP tool and then reamed open with a Michael's rear swivel stud drill. At 850 fps out of the GM aand 950 fps out of the M1917 both gave one shot kills and the wound channels of the through and through shots exhibited much more damage than the hard cast #68 had. All three bear were about 25 - 30' up in tree's so the shots were all raking shots up through the "chest/brisket" and exiting out the back.

I have been a fan of soft cast HP and GC'd bullets for handgun use on deer, elk and black bears for many years because of these experiences and many more comparing hard cast bullets to soft cast GC'd HP bullets in the mentioned game animals. Experience has proven to me the soft cast HP GC'd bullets do kill quicker. The key is the GC so the bullet can be driven fast enough with accuracy, a correct HP and of course the very soft alloy (I like recovered .22LR lead up through 1150 fps and 50/50 WW/lead from 1200 fps up to 2200 fps). Ast to the 45 ACP I think that it is too bad the Lyman "devestator" 45 bullet is not GC'd. The .44 Devestator is GC'd and is very deadly on deer, elk and black bears. Just my thoughts based on my experience. Obviously others vary so you'll have to make up your own mind what to "go" with. After all, it is your hide;-)

Larry Gibson

[waksupi]

.45ACP is pretty poor choice for bear. The hide is very tuff, plus thick hair, and a layer of fat. The one I shot a couple years ago had a layer of fat over 6" thick.
The only effective way to kill a bear with most pistols, is to place the muzzle between ear and eye, and shoot. The other method, is when you feel his tonsils around your wrist, open fire.

[RobS]

I am new to the auto scene. Generally shoot revolvers with big flat-nosed bullets.

Where as a 45 auto wouldn't be a primary choice for bear or cougar it will suffice as an alternative for a secondary; like said, something is better than nothing. However if you own a more powerful cartridge in a revolver that would be my first choice.

If not then I would go with a bullet that will give you penetration out of the 45 ACP platform. A hollow point at 45 ACP velocities I don't feel would give adequate penetration on a bear unless you shot it in a vital. Should you be up close and personnal with a bear your shot placement may not be as good as you would like and having a bullet that will penetrate deeper would be a better choice IMHO.

If you are left with only the 45 ACP as your option as a back up then I vote the Lee 200 RF that is hard cast and pushed out at 900 fps or faster for Mr. Grizzly.

[joecool911]

All these scary stories have me looking at 44 magnums. I am liking the Taurus ultralite with 4" barrel. Weighs in at 28 oz. Almost half the weight of my old Ruger Super Redhawk. Problem with the full size handguns is that unless you are handgun hunting, they are just a parasite on you. Weighing in at almost 4 pounds. A pound and three quarters sounds better!

But until then, its the 45 acp to back up my 338 win mag or 45-70 or bow.

[waksupi]

All these scary stories have me looking at 44 magnums. I am liking the Taurus ultralite with 4" barrel. Weighs in at 28 oz. Almost half the weight of my old Ruger Super Redhawk. Problem with the full size handguns is that unless you are handgun hunting, they are just a parasite on you. Weighing in at almost 4 pounds. A pound and three quarters sounds better!

But until then, its the 45 acp to back up my 338 win mag or 45-70 or bow.

Friend had one of those Taurus. It locked up on him in about 20 rounds. He returned it. Nice thing about Taurus, they come pre-broke from the factory, to save you time.

[451whitworth]

230 gr LBT LFN. I bought a 4 cavity mould.

that's exactly what i have and what i would use.

[dk17hmr]

I have a 454424 HP mold, boolits weigh in at 245grs, made of softer alloy and the cavity filled with wax it is a expanding son of a gun, not what I would use on bear but for deer or elk at bow range I wouldnt think twice about it, they come out of my 1911 at around 850fps.

I have also shot the LEE 255gr RNFP out of my 1911, chronoed at 860FPS, made them hard and used them for back up while bow hunting bear, never shot one though.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=8351&highlight=1911

[RobS]

For a heavy that Lee 255 RF would work well regarding feeding and function as it is just the Lee 200 RF with and extra drive band and lube groove. Nice big meplat and some good weight behind it moving at 860 fps is a good chunk of lead out of a 45 ACP.

Not a bad idea, not bad at all.

[miestro_jerry]

When I go hunting for larger animals, like elk. I carry a S&W L frame with 357 Mag bullets or a Ruger Redhawk in 44 Mag.

I carry a 45 ACP in my fields with me for ground hogs and coyotes. I like my 45 ACPs, but the 45 ACP is meant for military and police action that humans are the main targets. I know a couple of LEOs that have used the 45 ACP to take down attacking dogs.

Over the years I have carried mostly 1911s in 45 ACP, with one exception one 1911 in 38 Super. I think the 9mm over pentrates in enough cases that I won't carry it on a regular basis. But again these calibers are for a purpose other than game hunting, but I must say that I really like my Browning Hi Power.

I look at backup hunting pistols in this fashion, if a 45 ACP will comfortably take down a 250 pound man, then what will it take to bring down a 1,000 pound bull Elk? Especially one that is upset with you.

Jerry

[Edubya]

And once you experience the recoil on a 28oz .44mag you'll hope that you'll never have to make two shots to take a charging mad animal down. Anytime that your talking about 250 gr at 1200+ FPS, you've got to realize that the extra 10-20 oz. is a sweetheart to lug around. I have a 4" 629 and it's the lightest that I would want to depend on to put two or more boolits into a charging bear.

EW

[fredj338]

I appreciate all the comments. I agree about the 45 being marginal. Thats why I have a 10mm on order. I had a 454 Casull and found it too heavy to pack all the time. That was a good bear gun, but if you dont have it on you...it doesn't do any good. Actually thinking about a snub nosed 44 mag alaskan.
FYI, the 10mm is only very slightly "better" than a hot loaded 45acp. If you want sure bear medicine in a handgun, get a 4" 44mag or 45colt. Light wt, easy to shoot w/ loads that far exceed the 10mm. A 300grLFP @ 1200fps will penetrate all day & make a much larger hole.:veryconfu

[Gohon]

Nice thing about Taurus, they come pre-broke from the factory, to save you time.

Horse feathers..........my Taurus PT 1911 has a few thousand rounds through it and has never had a failure yet. Some of my loads are well into the +P range. Ditto for several friends that shoot a Taurus.

[miestro_jerry]

I am not sure about the Taurus pistols, don't own one at the moment. As to the light weight 44 Mag, I own a S&W 340 PD. It is a 357 Magnum that weighs 12 ounces. Once you have fired it, you will think about it before pulling the trigger a second time, even with 38 Spl +P

Jerry

[JTknives]

FYI, the 10mm is only very slightly "better" than a hot loaded 45acp. If you want sure bear medicine in a handgun, get a 4" 44mag or 45colt. Light wt, easy to shoot w/ loads that far exceed the 10mm. A 300grLFP @ 1200fps will penetrate all day & make a much larger hole.:veryconfu

i would have to disagree with this statement strongly, actually quite strongly. yes the 10mm does not reach 44mag power levels but i would like to see a 45acp touch 10mm in power and penetration. you say that the 10mm is only slightly better then a hot 45acp, but wait that's not fair. lets compare hot to hot if we are going to compare these 2 calibers. yes the 45 acp is larger in diameter then the 10mm but it acts to it's disadvantage. OK lets take 200gr-210gr cast with a large Meplat. the 45acp is moving slow which with a big boolit is not to bad but in order to gain any advantage of using a wide flat nose you need to be between 1200-1600 fps. if you cant push it that fast then you are just making a hole the size of the boolit. now once you can get it moving over 1200 fps then something starts to happen. you start to see permanent wound channels that happen to be much larger then the actual boolit diameter. i have seen numbers that relate to permanent channels being any where from 2-5 times the actual boolit size. now if you look at factory loaded 10mm rounds you will have slow velocity compared to what it was meant to do. but remember one thing that is a driving force behind penetration is sectional density. which is the weight of the boolit compared to its diameter. here is the formula
(weight in grains / 7000 grains-per-pound) / ( diameter2)
it is proven that bullets with higher Sectional Density penetrate better then lower sectional density. there is more mass behind a smaller surface area. now combine this with the velocity difference and it adds up to a huge difference between the two. would it make a difference on a person , probably not. but it was enough to drive the FBI to want to use the 10mm over the 45acp because of penetration problems. thy even stated that it was the best round but because of recoil thy dropped the powder charge and ended up with the 40sw which is a fail in my eyes. but its a good round. ok back to what i was talking about. even if both the 10mm and 45acp fired the same boolit style and same weight at the same speed the 10mm would have better penetration because of the smaller surface area on the nose. yes it would be a smaller hole but you got the penetration. now lets push the 10mm to what it can do. i can personalty push a 205gr WFN cast boolit over 1400fps out of my glock with an aftermarket barrel and careful work up. that is over 900ft/lbs of energy. but that's not all, this wide flat nose is flying in the butter zone for WFN boolits and will make a big hole with massive penetration. it works so well that it actually is a legal hunting round here in utah for elk and moose. OK so your pushing a 200gr 45acp at what 900fps and the 10mm can push the same boolit at 1400ps. I will admit i am not a 45acp reloading expert so i don't know what people have hot loaded the 45acp to so if you got some numbers great. the 45acp will make a 45cal hole and lack penetration because of the lack of velocity and Sectional Density. where the 10mm will make a hole 2-5 times the diameter of the boolit and have amazing penetration. its the same reason the 9mm has so much penetration. it has the velocity and high Sectional Density. sorry about the rant but i had a 45acp and quickly sold it after i did my homework. I'm not saying that the 45acp is a bad round at all. it works great on people and has what i consider low recoil because of the low pressures in the case. but once i realized that there is a lot factors then the size of the boolit. ill tell you what, in the woods i would rather take my 10mm with 15-16 rounds then a 44 mag 5-6. my gun is comped and has very little muzzle rise and at close range i could empty a mag into something very quickly. o and that 44mag load you said would be a great bear load, 300gr at 1200fps. its the same as my 1450fps 205gr 10mm loads energy wise. the 44mag does have a higher sectional density. i just thought i would point that out.

[Slogg76]

I have some limited experience taking game with a 45 ACP. I have taken white tail deer and smaller. In my experience I would go as heavy as possible. I second the Lee 255 RF if it will feed well. You can safely get 250-260 grain bullets in the 850 fps range and that is touching on original 45 Colt ballistics. I took deer with cheap Remington 230 grain HP's. One was a pass through on a broadside shot and the other (another broadside shot) broke through the opposite rib cage, almost broke through the skin on the opposite side, and bounced around the body cavity some. Expansion was great with both shots, and the deer didn't go anywhere. I have some friends that swear by the Hornady 200 grain XTP at +p velocities, but I have no first hand experience. I have shot small game with 180-185 cast and jacketed hollow points and I was not impressed! I had 45 bullets in that weight class hang up in opossums! I currently have my XD-45 with me loaded with Lee 230 grain TL TC's at nearly 900 fps when I may have to share the woods with bears. They drop from my mold more like 235 grains with wheel weights and tin and shoot very well. I only run into the occasional black bear and I figure if I bounce a mag full of 230+ grain 45 slugs off a bear's nose it MAY decide I'm not worth messing with. It is certainly better than nothing, however, even small black bears can soak up a whole lotta lead before they know they're dead.

[exile]

I have no experience shooting game animals, but I do have a S & W .44 Mountain Gun. It weighs 39 ounces (same as a 1911, I think) and if recoil is an issue, maybe a .44 Special would suffice for your purposes.

I have nothing against a 1911, I am in the market for one myself, but it seems like this would be a better choice for what you want to accomplish.

exile

[mroliver77]

If I was set on my 1911 or had to I would go with the Lee 255rf or the Lyman 452423swc that drops at 240 is from my mold. If one is knowingly carrying for backup on more dangerous game the 1911 can be used with a heavier spring and slow for the round powders and squeeze a bit more performance out of it. Personally I would carry a Black Hawk in .44 or .45 with a 5"ish barrel. They dont carry quite as comfortable as a 1911 but are not bad. Main thing is to be very proficient with it!!

Jay

[BD]

I designed the 230 grain BDacp specifically because I'd had such piss poor luck killing things with the H&G #68 and the H&G #130 designs, no matter how fast I drove them. Those light, fast SWC designs drill a nice clean hole clear through most every time, but they just don't seem to make enough of an impression on the animal being shot to stop the action. Even 'coons would keep on coming.

It's not necessarily intuitive, but in my experience a fair dose of "thump" from a big flat meplat will stop a deer or hog long enough to make a good second hit, and it will often roll a 'coon or dog off it's feet drt. All that said, if I know in advance I'm going out to play with bears I'll take the .44 mag.

BD

[Ajax]

if i was set on a 1911 i would carry it in a holster and bring a rifle. just my 2 cents

[gray wolf]

45 ACP for a Grizzly ?
Perhaps if he is down and you can walk up to him and do a shot to the brain.
If you plan on shooting a charging Grizzly with a 45 acp you are just dreaming
and will be bear food.

[Char-Gar]

I have never shot or shot at a bear. That said, good old 452423 a 240 grain Keith bullet going 850 fps out of a 1911 will kill deer and mountain lion grave yard dead, right now and right there. It takes a little throating on some barrel for it to feed 100%, but once done, it never jams. Here is my brush pistol and a mag of loads..452423/4.8./Bullseye. I have wagged similar pistols with this load all over Texas and New Mexico for 50 year and have never found the gun or load wanting.

[SharpsShooter]

If ya gotta have the ACP, buy yourself a Ruger Blackhawk Convertible 45 Colt / 45 ACP. with a 5.5" barrel. Put the ACP cylinder in the safe and forget you have it. A 260gr Keith SWC and 19gr of 2400 will git-er-done. I carry a 1911 every day and would be glad to have it if the need arose to stop a bear. That said, it would not be my first choice. I personally saw a 150ish pound black bear take six 357 mag 158gr JHP's to the chest at"tag you're it distance" and I was becoming concerned it was not gonna die without reinforcements.


Chargars load would be my minimum if I had just the 1911 to use.

SS

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Somehow grizzlies snuck into the thread . . . he is talking black bears, and yes they have a slow heart rate so it takes a while to leak out all the blood . . .

I have the MiHec's clone of the HG68 for my .45.

Here is a gun that was designed for bears . . . even the big ones that live in AK! 44 mag
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20Alaskan/New002.jpg

A great gun, not light, but they make heavier guns . . . I know it is a "just in case" gun, but I'd rather carry it and not need it, than turn into dinner for bear and/or the worms . . . I got it for two legged bears!


[smilie=s:

[Shooter6br]

After testing 45 ACP HP cast and Hornady bullets with two water filled jugs back to back as targets i find that penetration isnt all that great .Fine for self defence for 2 legged varmints but for big game? Solids in a 41 mag or larger Not a scientific test but seems to give you an idea. just my 2 cents

[geargnasher]

A word on the Lee 255 flat nose in the 1911 platform: Make sure your slide stop doesn't snag the fat nose and cause premature slide lock, and you'll need at least an 18lb spring if you load them up to decent power levels.

I don't live in bear country, but if I did I'd rely pretty heavily on a handy-length pump-action 12-gauge with Rio steel-pointed slugs.

Gear

[Char-Gar]

At times, I find these kinds of threads amusing. It is fun to conjur up the idea firearm for this or that use and to poke holes in the choices of another. Fun...but that is about all it is.

When afield, in the desert, mountains, jungles, brush or bush, the most important think you take with you is your brain. A good functioning brain will help you avoid problems you are no prepared to handle. Survival is not equipment, but attitude and knoweldge. Equipment is a distance second.

I have seen all sort of seeming bad firearms choices in the wild. The old pro, doesn't have much to spend on guns or time to read the latest blog, magazines or whatever. They use what they have, which often is not much.

When it comes to pistols in the great outdoors, I consider a good 22 to be No. 1 on the list. Next would be my 1911 brush pistol, which is good for anything in Texas or the Desert Southwest. If I ever wanted or needed anything bigger, I would break out the old 3 screw Ruger SBH.

I have lots of other handguns, but the above are really the working stable.

[Gohon]

I personally saw a 150ish pound black bear take six 357 mag 158gr JHP's to the chest

Doesn't surprise me a bit. It wasn't the caliber..........it was the ammo choice. Couple flat nosed 180 grain cast or something like the Hornady XTP's would most likely have made a world of difference. No matter the caliber used, it's the ammo choice that will determine the outcome.

[MtGun44]

JHPs are not the choice for this application. Gohon is exactly right.

ALL normal pistols (excluding that .308 Contender or similar) are very low on stopping
power compared to rifles. This is a given. Basically you have a power drill. If you want
to reach real deep, you cannot spend much of your severely limited power on making a bigger
hole (expansion). With the .45ACP you should select a 230gr truncated cone. This
will penetrate about 25" or more in flesh, and cause somewhat more damage than
round nosed. If you can make the 452423 feed, and most can, it would be a great
choice also.

Placement and quantity will be critical. Good luck.

[runfiverun]

452664,enough flat, enough mass, and enough velocity. should be right close to a black powder 45 colt load in the 250 gr. 750-800 fps zone.
not my first choice in big bear country, but on a black should be no problem.

[jdgabbard]

Cats are a different issue and they will just sit there letting you shoot holes in them untill they are dead. Cougars, Pumas , Panthers. They are not African Lions. You would have a hard time to convince me you shot a cat in self defense. Wouldn't fault you for shooting one but would not believe any tall tales of how it was attacking you. You'd not want to tell that story anyways as they only go for women and children who are week looking.

Gabby, I don't know where you got that information, but you're wrong. They've had many cases of cats attacking male hikers and the like. Even down at my home in SE Oklahoma, I shoot bobcats. While they're not going to do much damage to a man or woman, they can to children. Which are frequently at the house. Not to mention the bigger cats that have been spotted, and that the wildlife department denies exist. I've seen docile house cats attack people. Don't tell me a wild big cat wont.

[derek45]

I've killed large midwestern whitetail deer with 230gr Speer Gold-Dot HP's loaded hot.

[x101airborne]

I asked a while back about loading a hard cast 240 gr. lee rnfp in the 45 auto to shoot some pigs with. To say the responses I got on here were critical would be an understatement. Find someone with some experience and PM them. Opinions are great, but sometimes it is better to learn from experience.