I'm about to give up casting, Part 2

[patsher]

I've been following this thread carefully, because I'm trying to solve leading problems in my 9mm Sig P226.

To cut to the chase, I following your advice and tried pulling a measured bullet after loading, and found that my case was, indeed, swaging down the bullet some. Then I re-loaded the same bullet, and found that my Lee FCD was swaging it even further. Overall, I lost nearly .003 in diameter, caused by my equipment. No wonder I was having leading!

So. I took a previously-fired case and bypassed the first (decapping/sizing) die, flared it on the second (flaring/powder) die, re-adjusted the third (bullet seating) die so that it would not flare, and loaded a bullet.

The Problem: how do I crimp it (because the bullet is loose) without swaging it?

[qajaq59]

The Problem: how do I crimp it (because the bullet is loose) without swaging it? Your bullet should be tight without any crimping. If it isn't then I'd go back to running it thru the sizing die and look for another answer to the problem. Perhaps a bigger mandrel for the die?

[fredj338]

I've been following this thread carefully, because I'm trying to solve leading problems in my 9mm Sig P226.

To cut to the chase, I following your advice and tried pulling a measured bullet after loading, and found that my case was, indeed, swaging down the bullet some. Then I re-loaded the same bullet, and found that my Lee FCD was swaging it even further. Overall, I lost nearly .003 in diameter, caused by my equipment. No wonder I was having leading!

So. I took a previously-fired case and bypassed the first (decapping/sizing) die, flared it on the second (flaring/powder) die, re-adjusted the third (bullet seating) die so that it would not flare, and loaded a bullet.

The Problem: how do I crimp it (because the bullet is loose) without swaging it?
LFCD can be death to lead or plated bullet accuracy, especially if th ebullets are soft. A mild std taper crimp is all that is needed. SOme bbls just lead, Sigs have a aprticular bad rep for it. I believe they are cut rifled. Fire lapping may help.

[jaguarxk120]

Get a new set of dies from another mfgr. Redding, Hornady, RCBS, Lyman!

[EMC45]

Cut the carbide ring out of your LEE FCD die. I did 3 this way and haven't looked back! Still maintain the crimp function, but lose the swaging down of the carbide ring.

[JesseCJC]

Mayb a stupid question here but have you tried removing the fcd from the equation all together? If so, was the result any different?

[dragonrider]

The carbide rings in Lee FCD's are pressed in and held with loctite. Remove the inards of the die and you can punch it out from the top. Some heat on it will help break the loctite bond.

[RobS]

I've cut the carbide section off the die as well although I tried like heck to knock that sucker out with a punch with marginal luck on the first die. If you choose to cut it off just make sure you don't cut too far up on the die or you will loose the step in the inside of the it that keeps the crimp sleeve from staying in the die. I've done two different die sets by cutting them out and no problems. Also if you want to try for a few rounds with a normal crimp what to do it without modifying your dies all you need to do is take the body of the expander/powder through die (insides removed) and put in the crimp sleeve and screw the adjusting knob into the top of the expander/powder through dies body. Presto a crimp die without the carbide ring. You can get yourself an expander die body if you want directly from lee for $13. I vote to either knock the carbide ring out of the die you have or cut it out whatever works best for you.

However, you will need to size down the case as neck tension is needed to help keep the bullet in place and to give enough resistence for the powder to burn prior to heading into the barrel. The ways to combat the case swage down on the bullet is to size the bullet bigger or get an expander plug to re-open the brass case to a diameter that wont squeeze the cast bullet.

[patsher]

Thanks, everyone. I'll try to answer your questions:

Qajaq59: I'll check to see whether I can get a bigger mandrel. That's equivalent to what RobS suggested about an expander plug.

jaguarxk120: It may come to that, a new set of dies, lol!

emc45, dragonrider, and RobS: I'm going to try RobS's suggestion about putting the crimp sleeve into the expander/powder die body, and try crimping a few rounds that way. Then I'll decide whether to get an expander die body, and/or cut the carbide ring out of the fcd.

Thanks for all the detail and how-to's, that gives me the confidence to try! :bigsmyl2:

[patsher]

JesseCJC: I hadn't thought of that -- mainly because I figured I still needed a crimp of some kind. When I sized the case in the first die, it swaged the bullet down. And if I didn't size it, the bullet was loose (I could push it clean down to the top of the powder with just finger pressure.

Howsomever... if I can get a way to give them a simple taper die without swaging, OUT IT GOES.

[stang68]

I've posted this on other threads on this forum but what I did with my 357 Lee dies was set the seating die in the 3rd hole to just seat the boolit. Since I need oversized boolits and don't want them downsized for my Marlin Model 1894 and I found that the FCD was downsizing my boolits to .358, I ordered another seating die from Lee, but just the barrel without the seating plug and I put that in the 4th hole of my turret press in place of the FCD and adjust it to crimp the boolit, works like a charm and my boolits are not downsized.

[462]

Patsher,
Welcome to the forum.

Everybody has different experiences with their dies, and they have their favorite brands. I had serious problems with everyone of my Lee handgun seating dies down sizing boolits. I replaced all of them with Lyman -- because of their "M" die -- and have no more problems.

[RobS]

The M die...............I use them for all my PB bullets now. I hate making up a bullet that just gets swaged down by the case........ruins everything you are trying to accomplish. The bad thing for me is mine had to be custom for things to work. They use to make an expander plug for .454 bullets and discontinued it and instead have one for .451-.452 bullets which does me no bit of good. I took their 45 cal rifle plug, annealed it so it was softer, turned it down using my drill press to the diameter I wanted and then re-heat treated it. I also had our forum member here Buckshot make me one before turning one down on my own.

I've only had lee four die sets in 45 acp and 454 casull so I can't comment on a seating die swaging down a bullet, but could see it's possibility with the 3 die sets where the bullet is seated and crimped in the same stage. One thing for sure with the 4 die set, the Lee factory crimp die can play games on a persons bullet diameter if it is large enough to make the brass case hit on the carbide die which is a tell, tell sign that something is going to be squeezed down if the loaded round is going to go through the die.

[MtGun44]

Once again, the Lee pistol FCD is causing problems. These are an abomination, IMO.

I use and like Lee dies in general, and they are very innovative as a company. The
rifle FCD is a totally different concept, and is great.

Please, newbies, do not buy Lee pistol FCDs or if you have them, put them away!

Bill

[odoh]

The FCD function differently for the bottleneck cartridges (mostly rifle calibers) and streight wall cartridges (most pistol calibers) yet Lee doesn't address/differentiate that. They'll write instructions to cover both types w/the bottleneck FCD illustrated. Found it very confusing. The technology for the bottleneck works well ~ have had very little sucess w/the other. I keep them around for those rare instances when I foul up and cause distortion of the round preventing chambering (like too heavy of a roll crimp) ~ then I'll haul out the FCD to squish things back in shape and press on ~ I don't use the pistol FCD for production. From the comments here, I'm gonna hafta educate myself on Lymans M die.

[patsher]

stang68, are you saying that the barrel only of the seating die will not swage down the bullet?

[patsher]

However, you will need to size down the case as neck tension is needed to help keep the bullet in place and to give enough resistence for the powder to burn prior to heading into the barrel.

If I can get a suitable crimp die, will I still need to size down the case, or will the crimp be sufficient neck tension?


The ways to combat the case swage down on the bullet is to size the bullet bigger or get an expander plug to re-open the brass case to a diameter that wont squeeze the cast bullet.

Which die does the Lyman "M" die replace?

[sagacious]

Patsher,
The 9mm case must be resized. Can't skip that part.

The problem to attack is your expanding/belling die. The solution to your problem is a belling die that expands the case to not more than .001" below the desired diam of your cast bullets. Many expanding/belling dies are designed to provide strong neck tension with jacketed bullets and do not expand the casemouth very much, and as you found, this dimensional mismatch causes the softer lead bullets to be sized down.

This problem is very common. I suspect that one of the reasons that some people find that very hard bullets work best in their 9mm, is because it prevents undesired resizing of the cast bullet. Others find that a very hard bullet is not needed for the 9mm, and those people almost surely have the correct size belling/expanding die-- whether by luck or design.

Once you have that licked, just apply a light taper crimp with your regular crimp die, and you're set to go. Good luck.

[Lee W]

I have had good luck with the 9mm. I purchased a Glock 34 last year and my goal was to have a no leading load for it.
I used water dropped WWs with Rooster Zambini and a spritz of lanolin/Rooster jacket to help size the boolits. (.357 dia.)
The powder choice was a little more difficult. The new powder Autocomp from Winchester caught my eye so I used that.
I shot a winter league and a few other matches over that time (5-600 rounds) and I cleaned the barrel with the factory plastic brush. NO leading to speak of. The chamber is spotless with a few spots in the barrel that seem to be in a differnet place every time I clean it.

All that said, I use RCBS carbide die, a Dillon 1050 pistol expander and an RCBS taper crimp. I like the most neck tension as I can get. I do not know if the boolit gets sized after seating.

(Don't give up.)

[RobS]

I do not know if the boolit gets sized after seating.

(Don't give up.)

If you water quench the bullets and wait a few hours minum before sizing or sizing/lubing then reload, it is very unlikely that they are sizing down during the seating as the bullets are hard enough by then to withstand the stress the brass puts on it.

[RobS]

Patsher,
The 9mm case must be resized. Can't skip that part.

The problem to attack is your expanding/belling die. The solution to your problem is a belling die that expands the case to not more than .001" below the desired diam of your cast bullets. Many expanding/belling dies are designed to provide strong neck tension with jacketed bullets and do not expand the casemouth very much, and as you found, this dimensional mismatch causes the softer lead bullets to be sized down.

This problem is very common. I suspect that one of the reasons that some people find that very hard bullets work best in their 9mm, is because it prevents undesired resizing of the cast bullet. Others find that a very hard bullet is not needed for the 9mm, and those people almost surely have the correct size belling/expanding die-- whether by luck or design.

Once you have that licked, just apply a light taper crimp with your regular crimp die, and you're set to go. Good luck.

+1 on this post

[462]

Patsher,
The Lyman "M" die is an expander die that installs a slight "step", about 1/16" deep, inside the case mouth. The step is square-bottomed and allows the boolit to be inserted into the case perpendicular to it, and enter the seating die properly aligned. A regular expander die "flares" the mouth and the boolit can wobble about and enter the seating die at an angle other than optimm.

The die can be purchased as a seperate item, and the expander plug is removable and available seperately, also, making it possible to have one die for many calibers. This may explain it better than I'm able to: http://www.lasc.us/Brennan_LymanMDies.htm

[stang68]

stang68, are you saying that the barrel only of the seating die will not swage down the bullet?

That's correct, at least in my case with the die set for .38/.357. I've seated dummy rounds in the 3rd hole of my 4 hole turret press then pulled the boolits and they were still .359 - .360. I then did another and put it through the FCD and pulled the boolit and it was .358. I use the Lee TL mould and they drop at .359 - .360 and are quite accurate in my 1894 using the extra seating die for crimping but if I use the FCD my groups are large, just as they were when I was buying .358 LSWC's. Also, I can see the bulged case from the oversized boolit when it comes out of the seating die but then if I put that cartridge through the FCD I can feel it being sized down and can see the ridges of the TL boolit on the outside of the case. Bottom line is the seating die does not swage down the boolit. Now if you use the seating die in the 3rd hole to both seat the boolit and crimp in the same operation it may swage down the boolit.

[JesseCJC]

Once again, the Lee pistol FCD is causing problems. These are an abomination, IMO.

I use and like Lee dies in general, and they are very innovative as a company. The
rifle FCD is a totally different concept, and is great.

Please, newbies, do not buy Lee pistol FCDs or if you have them, put them away!

Bill

I strongly disagree, the issue here is not the FCD, it is a sizing/belling issue. You will be just fine with a taper crimp die. I use hornady dies due to the fact you can seat and place enough crimp via taper in one step.

OP, I would re-think your settings and get it to where you only use the FCD as a fail safe as it is not needed to place enough crimp on the boolit to keep it in place. It is however a very handy last step in QC to ensure your rounds will chamber.

[RobS]

I strongly disagree, the issue here is not the FCD, it is a sizing/belling issue. You will be just fine with a taper crimp die. I use hornady dies due to the fact you can seat and place enough crimp via taper in one step.

OP, I would re-think your settings and get it to where you only use the FCD as a fail safe as it is not needed to place enough crimp on the boolit to keep it in place. It is however a very handy last step in QC to ensure your rounds will chamber.

OK here is what I don't get.......you use Hornady dies and may not understand the FCD possibly. Yes, you are right regarding the re-sizing die making brass too small inside diameter specs and not having an expander plug that re-opens up the brass to a diameter that will be beneficial for a larger cast bullet.

I'm not picking on you by any means; the lee dies are set for jacket bullet dimensions (both the resizing/decapping die and the FCD) and having a bullet that is larger than those specs will in fact have issues unless a person is lucky and gets themself a set of dies where the dies specs are larger which is entirely possible with Lee dies. Most dies are actually set with specs for jacketed bullets, but RCBS does make Cowboy Dies which are designed in mind for the cast bullet shooter. Lyman M dies can assist with the re-opening up of the brass to a desired diameter that won't swage down a cast bullet and the factory plugs may not be enough for some larger diameter bullets so a custom plug maybe in need for such applications.

It is so very fool proof to determine if the FCD has the possibility of swaging down a bullet. If the round with the seated bullet hits the carbide ring in any shape or form as it enters the opening of the die then it will be squeezing down on the brass which will squeeze down on the bullet. There is a bit of wiggle room here in that if a person water quenches a bullet and makes it super hard then the brass may actually stretch and thin out as it will be softer than the water quenched bullet. A soft bullet that is loaded and hits on the FCD's carbide ring upon entering will with no doubt be swaged down in the process.

[bdixon]

I have been having the same problem as you. I finally sat down yesterday with a combination of air cooled and water dropped boolits. I took some brass that was sized and had a light flare at the mouth, then seated a couple of air cooled boolits then pulled them out and measured them. I found that the air-cooled boolits were being sized down from .358 to about .355. I then took some water dropped boolits and pushed them into the brass, pulled them back out and found that they were not being sized down at all.

I just set the bullet seating die down far enough so the flare gets straightened out. I try to not let the brass "bite" into the boolit at all.

I think the winning combo for me is to use wheel weights that are water dropped and sized to .358. I hope so anyway, because I have gotten frustrated with 9mm as well. .45 acp has been a piece of cake to cast for though!

By the way, I'm using RCBS carbide dies. Hope this helps...

[JesseCJC]

OK here is what I don't get.......you use Hornady dies and may not understand the FCD possibly. Yes, you are right regarding the re-sizing die making brass too small inside diameter specs and not having an expander plug that re-opens up the brass to a diameter that will be beneficial for a larger cast bullet.

I'm not picking on you by any means; the lee dies are set for jacket bullet dimensions (both the resizing/decapping die and the FCD) and having a bullet that is larger than those specs will in fact have issues unless a person is lucky and gets themself a set of dies where the dies specs are larger which is entirely possible with Lee dies. Most dies are actually set with specs for jacketed bullets, but RCBS does make Cowboy Dies which are designed in mind for the cast bullet shooter. Lyman M dies can assist with the re-opening up of the brass to a desired diameter that won't swage down a cast bullet and the factory plugs may not be enough for some larger diameter bullets so a custom plug maybe in need for such applications.

It is so very fool proof to determine if the FCD has the possibility of swaging down a bullet. If the round with the seated bullet hits the carbide ring in any shape or form as it enters the opening of the die then it will be squeezing down on the brass which will squeeze down on the bullet. There is a bit of wiggle room here in that if a person water quenches a bullet and makes it super hard then the brass may actually stretch and thin out as it will be softer than the water quenched bullet. A soft bullet that is loaded and hits on the FCD's carbide ring upon entering will with no doubt be swaged down in the process.

I understand, however if you don't have the prior stations set up properly, any mishaps are not due to the last station. You need a control to determine that the FCD is the problem. Even if the lee dies are not correct to use for cast boolits, the issue is not the last station. Being that he stated he did not try to seat and crimp without the FCD I am willing to bet there is another cause to the sizing issue here.

[RobS]

JesseCJC: You are right that if the previous stations are not set right then what's the likely hood of the following stations being right however the original poster has made statements that tell the readers that the FCD is making things worse. He is also going to attempt to crimp without the FCD as seen by another one of his posts. All in bold.


I understand, however if you don't have the prior stations set up properly, any mishaps are not due to the last station. You need a control to determine that the FCD is the problem. Even if the lee dies are not correct to use for cast boolits, the issue is not the last station. Being that he stated he did not try to seat and crimp without the FCD I am willing to bet there is another cause to the sizing issue here.


I've been following this thread carefully, because I'm trying to solve leading problems in my 9mm Sig P226.

To cut to the chase, I following your advice and tried pulling a measured bullet after loading, and found that my case was, indeed, swaging down the bullet some. Then I re-loaded the same bullet, and found that my Lee FCD was swaging it even further. Overall, I lost nearly .003 in diameter, caused by my equipment. No wonder I was having leading!

So. I took a previously-fired case and bypassed the first (decapping/sizing) die, flared it on the second (flaring/powder) die, re-adjusted the third (bullet seating) die so that it would not flare, and loaded a bullet.

The Problem: how do I crimp it (because the bullet is loose) without swaging it?


Thanks, everyone. I'll try to answer your questions:

Qajaq59: I'll check to see whether I can get a bigger mandrel. That's equivalent to what RobS suggested about an expander plug.

jaguarxk120: It may come to that, a new set of dies, lol!

emc45, dragonrider, and RobS: I'm going to try RobS's suggestion about putting the crimp sleeve into the expander/powder die body, and try crimping a few rounds that way. Then I'll decide whether to get an expander die body, and/or cut the carbide ring out of the fcd.

Thanks for all the detail and how-to's, that gives me the confidence to try! :bigsmyl2:

[patsher]

Well, to update: We tried knocking the carbide ring out of the FCD (after heating, to loosen the loctite), and succeeded only in knocking chips out of two punches and the inside ledge of the die itself. The carbide ring sits happily in place. So... that FCD is now out of the equation entirely, and I will not buy another. (I'm thinking of using the FCD in place of the spark plug used to cast the fishing line clean across the river to where the REALLY big catfish are.... lol )!

I've decided to do three things:
1. Buy the Lyman "M" die.
2. Try to re-adjust my seater/taper crimp die to crimp without swaging. (I'll try, anyway)
3. Buy another seating/taper die body only for taper crimping in a separate step.

And fourth, while waiting for the above items to arrive, I will cast some more bullets , water quench them, and check them for swaging/not swaging in my existing dies.

QUESTION: Where does the Lyman "M" die go in the reloading setup? I'm using a 4-stage turret press:
1 - decapper/sizer
2 - expander/power through die
3 - bullet seater/taper crimper
4 - FCD (now empty)

[RobS]

The Lee FCD is not a total loss here are a few pics of what I did.

The close up of the die mouth from an angle shows where there is the a small lip or bevel that keeps the crimp sleeve from falling out. It is important to use a thin blade like a hacksaw when cutting the carbide ring out and line up so you will be cutting just at the back of the carbide ring. It would be better to actually cut less than too much as too much you will cut that bevel out of the die and end up with a die that is useless as the sleeve will simply fall out. Cut to little and you'll hit the carbide ring which you can't cut with a hacksaw either but no big deal as you can just start a new cut and go from there. The second die I cut for my dad (his 44 mag die) I used a thin cut off disk that I put in my grinder and purposely cut into the die where I would hit the carbide ring and then just moved the cutting disk until it worked its way to the back of the carbide ring and then I cut right through the die body.

[patsher]

JesseCJC,

The thing I didn't really understand about the Lee FCD until I took it out of the press this morning, is that the carbide sleeve is pressed into the very BOTTOM of the die, where the loaded round enters the die. (I had it in my head that the carbide ring was up inside the die someplace!) Anyway, that carbide sleeve is the first point of contact between die and loaded round, and is sized for jacketed bullets rather than cast bullets, and swages down the loaded round.

The die applies the taper AFTER the round passes through the carbide sleeve, so that the swaging takes place before the taper crimp even comes into play. I think that's what RobS was trying to explain about the FCD die, and why it causes so much problem.

And I think you're right -- a slight taper crimp is all that's needed. Since my FCD is now history, I'll get back to finding the best way to do just that. Hope this helps, and many thanks for your kind words.

[patsher]

Way to go, RobS! Those pictures are exactly what I needed to see! (That and your explanation, that is.) If I can do this, then I won't need to buy that extra die body for crimping!

[RobS]

QUESTION: Where does the Lyman "M" die go in the reloading setup? I'm using a 4-stage turret press:
1 - decapper/sizer
2 - expander/power through die
3 - bullet seater/taper crimper
4 - FCD (now empty)

Well you have no other options if you are going to use a Lyman M-die in your 4 station press.

1. decap/size
2. Lyman M-die
3. expand/powder through die although not really expanding just dropping powder
4. bullet seater/taper crimper

You will not have an option to crimp alone in a station by itself.

I have a five stage press that allows me to still crimp in a seperate stage.

1. decap/size
2. Lyman M-die
3. expand/powder through die although not really expanding just dropping powder
4. Seat bullet
5. Crimp bullet

[RobS]

Now here is an option to by-pass the M-die although it will take some work as you'll have to mill it down to about .001 under your intended bullet diameter. You may be able to chuck in into a drill press and work it down or if you have a lathe that is an option too. I figure it would just drop in to your current powder through die, but don't know for certain and it would be best to call the company directly to ask about the diameter of the expander and to double check and see if it is an powder through/expander (has a hole in it do drop powder, like the factory one you have) and not just an expander die (solid).

Never the less it is only $3 and I can't see shipping being much more than USPS 1st class shipping of a few dollars.

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/partDetail.aspx?catId=18&subId=128&styleId=433&partNum=DIE-377-EXP

[patsher]

Well, I could put the crimp die into the little single-stage press I've got mounted on the end of the bench, and do it there. That would be simple enough, wouldn't it?

[stang68]

I guess I'm having trouble understanding why it's being recommended to ruin a perfectly good die by trying to knock out the carbide ring, that die is still useful with jacketed bullets. You can order a seating die barrel from Lee for $11.98, you'll have it in about 5-6 days and it will do a great job in turret hole #4 with the barrel of the seating/crimp die in hole #3 screwed out enough that it is not crimping and not possibly sizing down the boolit. As I said this set-up works great for me with the extra seating die as a stand alone crimp die, I didn't like using the seating die to seat and crimp in the same operation, it was difficult to setup properly, and the cartridges didn't always come out to my satisfaction. My two cents worth and I won't harp on it anymore.

[patsher]

Hmmm. That neck plug is an interesting thought. I'll give them a call and find out whether it is solid or hollow.

[patsher]

Stang68, you're right. It's just that I got all excited and tried to knock out the carbide sleeve and wrecked the die. Duh. I'm working on what you said.

[RobS]

If it is hollow ask them to also measure the inside diameter as that will give you the needed info to figure out if it has enough metal to mill down to your need diameter. i.e. if the inside diameter of the hollow part is .353 you will not have enough metal to make the die work as the expander walls would be two thin or non existent and would not have strength.

[Edubya]

I guess I'm having trouble understanding why it's being recommended to ruin a perfectly good die by trying to knock out the carbide ring, that die is still useful with jacketed bullets. You can order a seating die barrel from Lee for $11.98, you'll have it in about 5-6 days and it will do a great job in turret hole #4 with the barrel of the seating/crimp die in hole #3 screwed out enough that it is not crimping and not possibly sizing down the boolit. As I said this set-up works great for me with the extra seating die as a stand alone crimp die, I didn't like using the seating die to seat and crimp in the same operation, it was difficult to setup properly, and the cartridges didn't always come out to my satisfaction. My two cents worth and I won't harp on it anymore.

Couldn't he accomplish the same thing by using the sizer/decapper die without the decapper pin? Might just give it a try by running some through w/o the final crimp and then remove the pin and put the unfinished cartridges in that first station and raise the ram gently. Might have to back out the die quiet a bit to keep from swaging the boolit down.

patsher, Whatever you end up doing, be sure to do the thumb/bench press to insure that you will not get set-back. Also, remember that the brass will spring back and the lead will not.

EW

[jonblack]

Couldn't he accomplish the same thing by using the sizer/decapper die without the decapper pin?

That is a good question. I am interested to hear answers from those more informed than me.

jonblack

[stang68]

Couldn't he accomplish the same thing by using the sizer/decapper die without the decapper pin? Might just give it a try by running some through w/o the final crimp and then remove the pin and put the unfinished cartridges in that first station and raise the ram gently. Might have to back out the die quiet a bit to keep from swaging the boolit down.

patsher, Whatever you end up doing, be sure to do the thumb/bench press to insure that you will not get set-back. Also, remember that the brass will spring back and the lead will not.

EW
If he uses the sizer/decapper die he's going to downsize the the case/bullet the same as if he had used the FCD which I thought he was trying to avoid plus he's still going to need to crimp someplace, right? Maybe I need to go back to the beginning and re-read this entire thread, I'm losing the bubble.

[Edubya]

If he uses the sizer/decapper die he's going to downsize the the case/bullet the same as if he had used the FCD which I thought he was trying to avoid plus he's still going to need to crimp someplace, right? Maybe I need to go back to the beginning and re-read this entire thread, I'm losing the bubble.

Stang, you're right if he sizes to the same as the initial sizing, but if he backs it off to where the sizer snugs things back up he'll be fine. The taper crimp for 9mm is simply to get the flair out of the case. There is tension on the boolit to hold it. If you check a 9mm brass, the wall gets thicker as you move toward the web. So all we need to do is reintroduce the tension that it started with.

EW

[rbstern]

I've started loading 9mm cast again recently, and I am using the FCD. I was assembling some rounds a little while ago and was thinking about this thread. I was loading Lee 358-105 SWC. Air cooled, wheel weight boolits, cast about six months ago, and run through a 358 sizer earlier today.

I measured a sample boolit with my digital calipers, and it was .358 as expected. I then processed that boolit through my Lee four stage turret, no powder, no primer, Lee FCD in the last station.

I then disassembled a round, clamping the brass in a vice at the base of the case, pulling the bullet out by the nose with pliers. I measured the boolit again. Still .358.

If the FCD swages boolits, I'm not seeing it.

[RobS]

I've started loading 9mm cast again recently, and I am using the FCD. I was assembling some rounds a little while ago and was thinking about this thread. I was loading Lee 358-105 SWC. Air cooled, wheel weight boolits, cast about six months ago, and run through a 358 sizer earlier today.

I measured a sample boolit with my digital calipers, and it was .358 as expected. I then processed that boolit through my Lee four stage turret, no powder, no primer, Lee FCD in the last station.

I then disassembled a round, clamping the brass in a vice at the base of the case, pulling the bullet out by the nose with pliers. I measured the boolit again. Still .358.

If the FCD swages boolits, I'm not seeing it.

That's possible...........some Lee dies are out of spec........to no surprise.........and lucky you. Question for you: Did you feel any resistence as the seated round just started into the FCD dies mouth i.e. where the carbide rings is????

I bet you didn't have any or very, very little resistence.

[Charlie Two Tracks]

I fixed my FCD. I got a nut driver the correct size to go down the die from the top. It was just big enough to catch on the ledge of the carbide sizer ring. I held the die with one hand and smacked the driver with a hammer. On the 2nd or 3rd hit, the carbide sizer flew out and I still can't find it. No problem with the sizer anymore.

[rbstern]

That's possible...........some Lee dies are out of spec........to no surprise.........and lucky you. Question for you: Did you feel any resistence as the seated round just started into the FCD dies mouth i.e. where the carbide rings is????

I bet you didn't have any or very, very little resistence.

Resistence is felt at the top of the stroke, where the crimp happens.

The carbide ring in my 9mm FCD is tapered. Using my calipers, I measured 0.385" at the widest point just after the flare in the carbide insert mouth. At the narrowest point, on the innermost portion of the carbide sizing ring, before the crimp ring starts, I measured 0.381".

Lee publishes .381" for the cartridge diameter at the case mouth. Lyman has it as .380".

[Gohon]

I got mine out by just taking out the crimp internals and dropping a upside down empty shell in from the top. The rim caught on the top of the sizing ring and two whacks with a flat punch on the shell popped it out.

[RobS]

Resistence is felt at the top of the stroke, where the crimp happens. And that is why you don't have a swaged down bullet due to the FCD as the seated round is not hitting opening of the case mounth/carbide ring. The seated round is only making contact with the crimping sleeve at the top of the die.

The carbide ring in my 9mm FCD is tapered. Using my calipers, I measured 0.385" at the widest point just after the flare in the carbide insert mouth. At the narrowest point, on the innermost portion of the carbide sizing ring, before the crimp ring starts, I measured 0.381".

Lee publishes .381" for the cartridge diameter at the case mouth. Lyman has it as .380". I don't know what you are saying here other than you may be refering to the sizing/decapping die as Lyman doesn't have a carbide ring in their crimping die only lee has one in their FCD.


Lee does make two crimp dies.........their traditional crimp die like other manufactures (no carbide ring) and their FCD crimping die which does have the carbide ring.

[rbstern]

The carbide ring in my 9mm FCD is tapered. Using my calipers, I measured 0.385" at the widest point just after the flare in the carbide insert mouth. At the narrowest point, on the innermost portion of the carbide sizing ring, before the crimp ring starts, I measured 0.381".

Lee publishes .381" for the cartridge diameter at the case mouth. Lyman has it as .380".

I don't know what you are saying here other than you may be refering to the sizing/decapping die as Lyman doesn't have a carbide ring in their crimping die only lee has one in their FCD.

Nope, not referring to the sizing/decapping die. I am referring to the published outside diameter dimensions from Lee and Lyman for the 9mm case at the mouth in their respective reloading manuals.


Lee does make two crimp dies.........their traditional crimp die like other manufactures (no carbide ring) and their FCD crimping die which does have the carbide ring.

This is the FCD, came in the Lee deluxe four die set I bought a month ago. It has the carbide sizer insert. The insert tapers from .385" at the opening, to .381" at the top of the sizer ring, which would seem to be correct, not out of spec as you suggest.

[RobS]

OK then the 9mm Lee die is not out of spec regarding what is published data. However, the fact that your bullets do not touch the Lee FCD's carbide ring upon entering the die still supports why you are not having an issue with swaged down bullets.

I've had a LEE FCD 45 auto die that would sqeeze the heck out of a .452 bullet and a 44 mag FCD die that would do the same to larger .431-432 bullets. You knew it as soon as the seated round came up to the mouth of the die as there would be considerable friction with the carbide ring. Plain and simple, fool proof, no doubt concept to understand I believe.

Good to know that the 9mm dies don't swage down a .358 bullet.

[Doby45]

My FCD does not swage down my .452 boolits

[rbstern]

RobS, did you take measurements of the carbide ring interior dimensions after you removed them from the dies?

[RobS]

Nope no measurements........I as well as everyone else who has this problem probably just took them out in one way or another and now no problems with the die.

If I had the measurements though it may help in figuring out which dies sets may have issues and which ones that don't.

with regards to Doby45's response it could be that either one of us could have or have had, in my case, a die that is out of spec. I suspect that quality control could be an issue with the lee dies where some of the dies swage down on bullets and some don't.

[rbstern]

Has anyone measured an "out of spec" carbide insert from a Lee FCD?

[RobS]

rbstern:

Here is where it lies..............it doesn't matter what mine or anyone else’s measures. Yes there is validity in measuring and having data/facts, however, the real problem at hand is people are in fact experiencing the seated round coming into contact with the carbide ring creating enough resistance that it swages down the cast boolit..........very basic concept, plain and simple just as it is plain and simple that some are not having this issue at all since their seated round goes right on up and through without touching the carbide ring (just like your FCD).

Once figured out people become very aware of what is going on with their perfectly sized cast boolit...........thankfully you are lucky enough to not have the problem at all and for those who are fortunate to not experience the Lee factory crimp die problem either that is equally wonderful too as you don't have to go through the frustrations of pulling bullets to figure this out and then the attempt to try and modify a die or possibly buy another companies dies. One means or the other there will have to be a change for such person who is having problems with their Lee FCD.

So go ahead and find your "out of spec" carbide insert info/data but the problem with some Lee FCD's will still exist and I guess you will have those numbers to give people as a solution to their problem.............. although I don't think they will be too interested in carbide ring diameters. They will however be happy to find information that they can still use their dies with modification or simply cut their frustration and buy a different company's die/die set.

[rbstern]

RobS, I am genuinely interested in the answer. I want to understand what is going on with the problem dies. I find myself wondering if the carbide inserts are being installed backwards during manufacturing, or if there is some deeper issue we are not understanding.

"It just doesn't work right because a bunch of people have experienced it" leaves me intellectually unsatisfied.

On top of that, without some further investigation, it becomes too easy an excuse for people to fall back on, instead of identifying their actual problem. I took your posts in this thread as gospel, until I started to think about it and experiment, and realize that the info didn't apply to me. It's really easy, in trying to get cast boolits working well, to not understand a problem clearly and blame it on something other than the root cause. We have people on this site who are saying the Lee FCD is a problem and shouldn't be used. It didn't match my experience, and I am simply trying to understand the disconnect.

[RobS]

Ok...........well as I see it Lee quality control isn't at par (to somewhat no surprise but for the price their equipment is hard to beat) as some people have problems and some do not. I'm pretty sure that most can measure the diameter of a bullet before and then after using the Lee FCD and with that I believe their results as these pulled bullet measurements usually comes after such individual experiences a guns bore that is leaded from one end to the other. Guns seldom lie you know. It would be very obvious if the factory sent out a die with the carbide ring in upside down as it wouldn't fit. The ring is tapered at the mouth as you already measured which is designed as such to assist with the initial alignment of the round into the die. If the carbide ring was even attempted to be put in upside down the tapered end would bust off as it was pressed into the die.

Rap your mind around it as much as you want but it is as simple as the opening of the carbide ring being too tight in diameter for the cast boolits that some people are trying to push through the die. With the possibility of the ring not being put in upside down then it leaves only two possibilities. 1. Lee quality control is spotty on the rings diameters and/or 2. Some people are not trying to seat and crimp as big as a bullet as another or visa versa (the reason why some don't have problems vs why some do).

[patsher]

Hi, guys. Sounds like my two oldest sons going at it! Tell you what. I've still got at FCD die, and while I don't have an inside mic small enough to measure it, I know a couple of machinists who do, so I'll get the carbide ring measured, and post the results. Then we will at least have two sets of hard data to compare. Will that be of interest, rbstern, sir?

In the meantime, I'm moving ahead on the suggestions for possible solutions from so many of you: (1) ordered Lyman "M" dies for all my pistol calibers. Besides the case expansion-for-the bullet feature, I liked that it would take them square into the case (2) ordered a "normal" taper crimp die for 9mm -- for 10 bucks I can stop the hassle I'm having (3) ordered some Hornady die lock rings -- tired of messing with the o-rings on the ones I have.
Should be here in 3 or 4 days.

And until then -- I cast some more bullets and water-quenched them. They're nice and hard, and as soon as I get all my dies re-assembled, I'll load up a couple of testers and measure to see whether that solves the leading problem.

AND GUYS --- this last set of exchanges between RobS and rbstern is typical of what makes me value these forums so much ... differing points of view, firmly put, well-articulated... and CIVIL. In a day when civility on so many fronts seems to have been upstaged by "shock power", it is a pleasure to come here and participate. Many thanks to all of you who are helping us newbies!!! All this information from so many different sources -- and out of it arise many points of commonality, and fertile soil for coming to understand what's going on in this seemingly-simple (hahahahaha) process of a projectile going down a tube toward a particular point! The truth, of course is "'tain't easy, Magee!" :veryconfu

[rbstern]

Ok...........well as I see it Lee quality control isn't at par (to somewhat no surprise but for the price their equipment is hard to beat) as some people have problems and some do not. I'm pretty sure that most can measure the diameter of a bullet before and then after using the Lee FCD and with that I believe their results as these pulled bullet measurements usually comes after such individual experiences a guns bore that is leaded from one end to the other. Guns seldom lie you know.

Every gun has it's own voice. My experience in reloading is that sometimes evidence that seems obvious is not so, and the answer is deeper. I don't think there is anything wrong with asking questions and trying to assemble more information, rather than simply accepting what seems to be obvious conclusion.

You jumped to the conclusion that my die was oversize because I was not swaging a .358" bullet. Seemed obvious to you, right? But it was an incorrect assumption, because you didn't understand the dimensions of the die. Neither did I, until I measured and looked up the specs.


It would be very obvious if the factory sent out a die with the carbide ring in upside down as it wouldn't fit. The ring is tapered at the mouth as you already measured which is designed as such to assist with the initial alignment of the round into the die. If the carbide ring was even attempted to be put in upside down the tapered end would bust off as it was pressed into the die.

Is the exterior of the insert tapered? I assumed only the internal dimensions are tapered. I've never busted one out, so I simply don't know. Would like to know.


Rap your mind around it as much as you want but it is as simple as the opening of the carbide ring being too tight in diameter for the cast boolits that some people are trying to push through the die. With the possibility of the ring not being put in upside down then it leaves only two possibilities. 1. Lee quality control is spotty on the rings diameters and/or 2. Some people are not trying to seat and crimp as big as a bullet as another or visa versa (the reason why some don't have problems vs why some do).

It may well be as you say.

[rbstern]

Hi, guys. Sounds like my two oldest sons going at it! Tell you what. I've still got at FCD die, and while I don't have an inside mic small enough to measure it, I know a couple of machinists who do, so I'll get the carbide ring measured, and post the results. Then we will at least have two sets of hard data to compare. Will that be of interest, rbstern, sir?

Would very much like to know. Thank you.


AND GUYS --- this last set of exchanges between RobS and rbstern is typical of what makes me value these forums so much ... differing points of view, firmly put, well-articulated... and CIVIL. In a day when civility on so many fronts seems to have been upstaged by "shock power", it is a pleasure to come here and participate. Many thanks to all of you who are helping us newbies!!! All this information from so many different sources -- and out of it arise many points of commonality, and fertile soil for coming to understand what's going on in this seemingly-simple (hahahahaha) process of a projectile going down a tube toward a particular point! The truth, of course is "'tain't easy, Magee!" :veryconfu

I guess "your momma" jokes are out? :)

[odoh]

Ok...........well as I see it Lee quality control isn't at par (to somewhat no surprise but for the price their equipment is hard to beat) as some people have problems and some do not. I'm pretty sure that most can measure the diameter of a bullet before and then after using the Lee FCD and with that I believe their results as these pulled bullet measurements usually comes after such individual experiences a guns bore that is leaded from one end to the other. Guns seldom lie you know. It would be very obvious if the factory sent out a die with the carbide ring in upside down as it wouldn't fit. The ring is tapered at the mouth as you already measured which is designed as such to assist with the initial alignment of the round into the die. If the carbide ring was even attempted to be put in upside down the tapered end would bust off as it was pressed into the die.

Rap your mind around it as much as you want but it is as simple as the opening of the carbide ring being too tight in diameter for the cast boolits that some people are trying to push through the die. With the possibility of the ring not being put in upside down then it leaves only two possibilities. 1. Lee quality control is spotty on the rings diameters and/or 2. Some people are not trying to seat and crimp as big as a bullet as another or visa versa (the reason why some don't have problems vs why some do).

I experienced a reversed tapered/installed ring in a new 480Ruger FCD ~ plus it was fractured from the factory. I've had the ring to indeed do the resizing ~ afterall, the instructions says its to resize and crimp the assembled round. Just a coincidence, I rec'vd one just today for 45ACP. Was fiddling w/it and some 'resized' but never fired 45ACP and 460 Rowland brass w/o engaging the carbide ring. That was a first time experience for me but then again, I usually run distored/heavily dented cartridges thru it. If the round has already been sized in another sizing die, its a good bet that it won't be sized/touched by the carbide ring of an FCD.

[patsher]

As in "wearing combat boots"? Nah. "Your momma" jokes are pretty mild these days! [smilie=l:

[RobS]

You jumped to the conclusion that my die was oversize because I was not swaging a .358" bullet. Seemed obvious to you, right? But it was an incorrect assumption, because you didn't understand the dimensions of the die. Neither did I, until I measured and looked up the specs.

I didn't jump to any conclusion. The lee dies are set to jacketed dimensions and I had absolutely no problems crimping jacketed bullets with the die as 45 auto jacketed bullets are .451. in diameter and there was no touching on the carbide ring or at least very, very little every once in a great while. According to Lee everything was kosher with the die I had. A jacketed 9 mm bullet is .355..........see where I am going here. Anyway I later started to load cast bullets that were sized and loaded with .452 bullets. To no surprise my WW air cooled boolits came back out of the case at .4505 to .451 and leaded the daylights right out of my barrel.

I knew something had to be wrong as I had just shot a few weeks prior a friends reloads with lead bullets and had no problems, no leading so I called him up and asked what he sized them to. His response....................452. I quickly concluded that it had to be my reloading setup. I went over to his place to see what he was doing and the first thing I noticed was he had a blue press (Dillon) and Dillon dies. I watched him load up a round and then we went to pulling it = .452. I watched him load another one and seen he had no resistance no touching on the dies mouth upon entering (no resizing of the case/bullet in the crimping stage at the case mouth; no carbide ring in his crimp die). BINGO. Since then my die has never had one and I didn't spend any more time than what it took to cut it out and toss it into the trash can.

More for you to chew on:

Here is another good one that I haven't even brought up regarding the FCD. It is entirely possible to have success with the die even if it swages down an air cooled bullet 10-12 BHN and yet another reason why some people have success with the die even though they have resistance at the carbide ring.

"How is that Mr. Crazy", you ask?

Water quench the bullet and wait a week or so and it will do the same thing it does in a lube die. A .452 lube die will size a soft bullet to .452.............take that same lube die and size a water quenched or heat treated bullet and what is your bullets diameter? Think quickly..............spring back is now in the equation. A water quenched bullet that has hardness to it; a bullet at 18-20 BHN will not read at .452 but rather .453 or really close to it. Now with that a Lee FCD that swages down a soft bullet can still and will work due to spring back with the hard BHN bullet. Bet you didn't think of that. I didn't want to mention this because it is not the best means to run about things but now it's out there.

[Alex Hamilton]

I've been following this thread carefully, because I'm trying to solve leading problems in my 9mm Sig P226.

To cut to the chase, I following your advice and tried pulling a measured bullet after loading, and found that my case was, indeed, swaging down the bullet some. Then I re-loaded the same bullet, and found that my Lee FCD was swaging it even further. Overall, I lost nearly .003 in diameter, caused by my equipment. No wonder I was having leading!

So. I took a previously-fired case and bypassed the first (decapping/sizing) die, flared it on the second (flaring/powder) die, re-adjusted the third (bullet seating) die so that it would not flare, and loaded a bullet.

The Problem: how do I crimp it (because the bullet is loose) without swaging it?
Hi, Patcher,
Sorry for wading into this thread late. Firstly, do not give up casting and secondly do not use Lee factory crimp die at all. Full length resize/deprime and neck expand; then charge with powder and seat the bullet withoug crimping at all. You might get away with it, but if you get problems with feeding, buy a taper crimp and use it only to straighten case mouths. Then let us know how you got on and for more advice if needed.

By the way, I use Lee Factory Crimp Die in 357M, but only with HBWCs and DEWCs, which I seat flush with case mouths and load them singly in Winchester underlever. The bullets are quite loose because the brass springs back and lead does not, but the boolits are held in place by the inner taper of the case at the bottom and the slight roll crimp at the top. One hole accuracy at short range (25 - 30yds) but the cartridges have to fed singly. Aparently, this method was tested by Col. H. Harrison and this is how the ammunition manufactures load HBWCs.

Basically, any die, by whatever name called, that sizes the case mouth with the bullet in place will remove neck tension and accuracy with the exception above.

I think that someone in authority should write to Lee and tell them to amend the isntructions that come with FCDs or stop selling them altoghether.

[Doby45]

the first thing I noticed was he had a blue press (Dillon) and Dillon dies. I watched him load up a round and then we went to pulling it = .452. I watched him load another one and seen he had no resistance no touching on the dies mouth upon entering (no resizing of the case/bullet in the crimping stage at the case mouth; no carbide ring in his crimp die). BINGO. Since then my die has never had one and I didn't spend any more time than what it took to cut it out and toss it into the trash can.

And if you came over to my house you would see a *gasp* Lee red press and you could watch me make 45cal rounds all day long and then pull a few and see they are still .452 AFTER a FCD was used on them. *gasp* THE HUMANITY!!!!

[rbstern]

Hi, Patcher,
Sorry for wading into this thread late. Firstly, do not give up casting and secondly do not use Lee factory crimp die at all. Full length resize/deprime and neck expand; then charge with powder and seat the bullet withoug crimping at all. You might get away with it, but if you get problems with feeding, buy a taper crimp and use it only to straighten case mouths. Then let us know how you got on and for more advice if needed.

In 9mm, with no crimp, I'd be worried about bullet setback during recoil.

[rbstern]

Here is another good one that I haven't even brought up regarding the FCD. It is entirely possible to have success with the die even if it swages down an air cooled bullet 10-12 BHN and yet another reason why some people have success with the die even though they have resistance at the carbide ring.

"How is that Mr. Crazy", you ask?

Water quench the bullet and wait a week or so and it will do the same thing it does in a lube die. A .452 lube die will size a soft bullet to .452.............take that same lube die and size a water quenched or heat treated bullet and what is your bullets diameter? Think quickly..............spring back is now in the equation. A water quenched bullet that has hardness to it; a bullet at 18-20 BHN will not read at .452 but rather .453 or really close to it. Now with that a Lee FCD that swages down a soft bullet can still and will work due to spring back with the hard BHN bullet. Bet you didn't think of that. I didn't want to mention this because it is not the best means to run about things but now it's out there.

RobS, that's a great example. Demonstrates why it's better to know the specifics of the variables involved, rather than make assumptions about what is happening in the absence of supporting data.

[RobS]

And if you came over to my house you would see a *gasp* Lee red press and you could watch me make 45cal rounds all day long and then pull a few and see they are still .452 AFTER a FCD was used on them. *gasp* THE HUMANITY!!!!

What?????............It had nothing to do with the press other than to quickly decipher that a different variable was used in my friends loading setup and more specifically that he was using a Dillon crimp die, which as I said didn’t swage down a bullet upon entering the mouth of the die.

By the way I have 2 Loadmasters a Lee Classic Cast single stage, have had Lee 4 hole Turret presses (both the Classic Cast and the aluminum model) at one point, and own pretty much all Lee dies.

As I said............I'm glad your FCD doesn't swage down a .452 bullet...........mine die..............well I was not so fortunate. What don't you understand about what I am saying??? It was never about the different companies.

[RobS]

RobS, that's a great example. Demonstrates why it's better to know the specifics of the variables involved, rather than make assumptions about what is happening in the absence of supporting data.

The variable is stated quite well and specifically so no assumptions were made.

Original Post Quote
[QUOTE=patsher;925126]To cut to the chase, I following your advice and tried pulling a measured bullet after loading, and found that my case was, indeed, swaging down the bullet some. Then I re-loaded the same bullet, and found that my Lee FCD was swaging it even further. Overall, I lost nearly .003 in diameter, caused by my equipment. No wonder I was having leading!QUOTE]

The only thing I have to say here is look at what the original post is stating. Seated a bullet and noticed that the FCD swaged down his bullet even further. This as become a much more difficult scenario than it really is.

If you and Doby45 aren't having the issue of the FCD then it seems inadequate that either one of you could give or even attempt to give accurate advise here for helping the individual who posted the opening thread. I will have to say that those who do have problems with the FCD, me included, we all must be idiots then I guess since we can't get them to work properly.....................or are we since we have taken out the carbide ring and use the die with success.

HMMMMM now there is real "hard core" evidence of a before and after experiment. Not a overly scientific experiment, but one that has factual bullet diameter measurements showing the difference in bullet diameters while using the FCD (a pulled smaller diameter bullet) and then diameters of bullets when not having the carbide ring in place (larger diameter).

It's really not that hard.........................

[rbstern]

The variable is stated quite well and specifically so no assumptions were made.

Original Post Quote
[QUOTE=patsher;925126]To cut to the chase, I following your advice and tried pulling a measured bullet after loading, and found that my case was, indeed, swaging down the bullet some. Then I re-loaded the same bullet, and found that my Lee FCD was swaging it even further. Overall, I lost nearly .003 in diameter, caused by my equipment. No wonder I was having leading!QUOTE]

The only thing I have to say here is look at what the original post is stating. Seated a bullet and noticed that the FCD swaged down his bullet even further. This as become a much more difficult scenario than it really is.

If you and Doby45 aren't having the issue of the FCD then it seems inadequate that either one of you could give or even attempt to give accurate advise here for helping the individual who posted the opening thread. I will have to say that those who do have problems with the FCD, me included, we all must be idiots then I guess since we can't get them to work properly.....................or are we since we have taken out the carbide ring and use the die with success.

HMMMMM now there is real "hard core" evidence of a before and after experiment. Not a overly scientific experiment, but one that has factual bullet diameter measurements showing the difference in bullet diameters while using the FCD (a pulled smaller diameter bullet) and then diameters of bullets when not having the carbide ring in place (larger diameter).

It's really not that hard.........................


RobS, nobody is calling anybody an idiot. I posted that my 9mm FCD was not swaging bullets. You posted that the cause was likely an out of spec die. I measured it and that wasn't the case.

My follow up questions are about trying to understand how and why the problem manifests itself. Could it be the way the die is used? Could it be the position of the boolit in the case? Could the carbide insert be installed wrong by Lee? Or, as you suggest, is the die out of spec (although in the opposite direction from what you suggested...too small rather than too large).

I am interested in data gathering, and you are defensive about it. Not sure why it's a problem. It's just questions and discussion. No offense intended. Really.

[RobS]

rbstern:

I'm not defensive about you gathering any info that you seek or need..........I just don't see how you are going to change anything by gathering info as there are too many variables to justify a means and the problem is as clear as can be. I am saying that if a person for whatever variable/variables is having issues with the FCD no amount of numbers or dimensions collected will solve their problem. However it will give them a specified dimension as to what they already knew in that the carbide ring is too small in diameter and is squeezing down the brass case and ultimately is swaging down their bullet. It's like saying you need to measure 6 inch diameter bucket to verify that a 12 inch diameter ball is not going to fit. That is all I am trying to convey here.

[Alex Hamilton]

In 9mm, with no crimp, I'd be worried about bullet setback during recoil.
Be very, very careful RB, because 9mm headspaces on the case mouth and crimping it, especially with a roll crimp, would create excessive head space. Take a look at any brand of factory ammunition and you will not find it crimped.

As for set back, that would be contrary to the laws of physics. Any body wants to stay in whatever condition it is (inertia) and the bullets in the cartridges in the magazine likewise want to stay stationary. As the recoils is rearwards, if the bullets are loose in cases they would move forward not back - i.e. remain where they were before the gun fired. This phenomenon was more common with cap-n-ball revolvers, i.e. the balls moved forward in the cylinder and prevented the cylinder from rotating for the next shot.

I hope that I have explained this well, otherwise come back and I will try again.

[rbstern]

Be very, very careful RB, because 9mm headspaces on the case mouth and crimping it, especially with a roll crimp, would create excessive head space. Take a look at any brand of factory ammunition and you will not find it crimped.

Taper crimp, not roll crimp.

9mm discussions on crimping always seem to get a bit muddled. If you are taking the flare out of the case mouth, and the case neck tension on the bullet is increasing with that operation, that is, in effect, crimping.


As for set back, that would be contrary to the laws of physics. Any body wants to stay in whatever condition it is (inertia) and the bullets in the cartridges in the magazine likewise want to stay stationary. As the recoils is rearwards, if the bullets are loose in cases they would move forward not back - i.e. remain where they were before the gun fired. This phenomenon was more common with cap-n-ball revolvers, i.e. the balls moved forward in the cylinder and prevented the cylinder from rotating for the next shot.

I hope that I have explained this well, otherwise come back and I will try again.

With a semi-auto, the slide assembly aborbs some of the initial recoil energy, but then suddenly transfers it to the frame when the slide's rearward travel stops, while the frame remains relatively stationary in your grip against this impulse. This imparts rearward force on the cases and the bullets. The cases can't move. If the bullets don't have enough neck tension (or crimp, for those of us that think of it that way), they will move backward relative to the case.

Can't say I've seen it much in 9mm, but I've examined some 45acp and 380acp FMJ rounds that had too little neck tension/crimp, and they set back dangerously in the case.

With semi-auto pistols, I like to see a little bit of crimp.