.40 S&W questions [Archive]

redbird1976

06-14-2010, 11:44 PM

I've been casting bullets for several years and have not had an issue with leading until now. I've been casting .45's and 9mm's. My casting metal has always been a combination of wheel weights and range scrap. The wheel weights are 1980's and early 1990's vintage that my dad picked up during lulls working the night shift. I've been driving a 212 grain .45 acp swc at 850fps and 155grain 9mm at 750 to 875fps, depending on the load. Bullseye had been my powder of choice for years, but I'm looking for a slower burning powder for my .40S&W so I bought a pound of Hogdgon Longshot the other day. I had good results with my jacketed bullets. Six grains of Longshot and a 180grain JFP loaded to 1.120" gave me an average velocity of 965 fps.

So last week I got my equipment to cast .40 caliber. I'm using a lee six cavity mould 175 grain tc with standard lube groove. They are being sized in an RCBS lubrisizer to .401. I'm using a set of lee dies on a Dillon 550 to load the cartridges. Bullets were dropping from the mould between .401 and .403. Sized and lubed they spec out at .401 and weigh 180 grains.

Now onto to the details of the casting. I cast last Monday and Tuesday. My alloy was a mixture of wheel weights, range scrap and some mystery lead that was in 4"x8" sheets that looked as if they had been round at some point then squashed into rectangles. I casted about 1/2WW to the other material. The bullets were air cooled and sized within 24 hours of casting. On Wednesday I loaded up some test loads.
I loaded 20 each: 5.5gr longshot, 5.7 gr longshot, 6.0 gr longshot OAL 1.100"
They all functioned fine. I chronoed each group and shot them for accuracy.
Here are the results:
180grTC L 5.5 gr longshot-- avg vel. 913fps

180grTC L 5.7 gr longshot-- avg vel. 960fps

180grTC L 6.0 gr longshot-- avg vel. 985fps

The averages are the result of two cycles USPSA chrono protocol; three rounds at ten feet.

As far as accuracy, they shot exactly like my normal competition load at 12 yrds. (4 out 5 shots touching). I fired sixty rounds. When I tore my gun down the inside of the barrel was dirty, but not noticeably more than usual. The inside of my barrel looked like it had grown fur. I spent the next hour de-leading my barrel. I decided to wait an see if they bullets got any harder. Today I loaded up a few more rounds. I loaded ten rounds with 6.4 grains of longshot. Same results; heavy leading this time with some keyholing bullets at 12 yrds. I cleaned the barrel again and backed the load down to 5.2 grains. It's still leading, but the keyholing is gone and the group is nice and tight. I shot it in my both my limited guns with the same results. I cleaned the barrels again. This time I stepped the load up to 5.5 grns and lengthened the bullets to 1.115". Again, shoots great, but still leading the barrel.

I did make one change to my normal press set up. I remove the factory crimp die this evening and have been relying on the seating die to seat and lightly crimp the rounds. Oh before I forget, my lube is lyman orange majic.

Does anybody have any ideas about what is causing the leading? Have i assembled something wrong, or did I cast a bad batch of bullets?

Bob J

06-15-2010, 08:20 AM

A couple of thoughts..... If you have been casting/shooting successfully 45ACP and 9MM we should be able to eliminate alloy, powder and lube.... That pretty much leads us to sizing and barrel issues.... Of the 2, my vote is for sizing... Normally .401 would be fine but it all depends on what your barrel slugs to.... I have a 1911 that leads badly with .452 and is fine at .453.... Would recommend that you size some to .402 and see how they do...

The other possibility is the condition of the barrel.... Make sure there is no copper fouling for the lead to bond to.... If there is no copper then the last thing is the barrel finish.... If this is the case you might want to consider firelapping.....

redbird1976

06-15-2010, 12:18 PM

Thanks. I'll give it a try and report the results.

mooman76

06-15-2010, 01:25 PM

The 40 is a higher pressure round. May have been just enough to push it over to the leading side. That mystery lead was probubly pure from sheats and your range lead is probubly softer that WWs also. Might try traight WWs or water drop/WWs. I used straight WWs in my 40's with no issues. Just something else to think about.

mold maker

06-15-2010, 01:41 PM

My take on the problem is also the mystery lead being the variable that could cause your problem. My range lead usually runs about 12 hardness. If you substitute near pure lead for a good portion in this mix, your final results might be just soft enough to cause leading in the 9mm.
Try adding a 1/4 more WW to that mix and cast some more.

mtgrs737

06-15-2010, 01:47 PM

I have a cookie tin of those same Lee boolits sitting right next to me at the computer as I type this. I have been learning how to load 40 S&W for my Hk USP. This is what I found out about my gun. The throat is just a tad over .402", any sized over .402" and close to .403" will lead the barrel something awful. I cast of ww alloy exclusively and find that .401" seated to 1.125" will not lead the polygonal barrel at all. If I seat the bullet so that the full dia. of the first driving band does not protrude into the throat they will lead the bore. I would measure the throat of your barrel to find out what size it is, then size the boolit to that or just under that dia. Then I would make sure that the full dia. of the boolit protrudes into the throat upon being chambered. I remove the barrel and drop a loaded round into the chamber to check to see if it drops in with only gravity. The rounds I loaded with .403" (unsized) boolits did not drop in freely but would chamber with a little help. Lyman Orange Magic should work fine. I was using BAC and am now going to try Speed Green lube.

'

johnho

06-15-2010, 01:56 PM

For what it's worth I have exactly the same problem in my 40 XD and have not been able to solve it. Same lead, lube as with my 38 and 45 bullets that I get no leading from. Using 4.2 231 in the 175tc bullet. lead. tried more powder, tried less, tried lars 2500, tried Magma-still some leading. tried sizing to 401, 402 and 403-still lead. Finally got some chore boy copper and use it after each session. Few swipes and it's gone. Frustrating for sure. Only gun I have that leads is this one.

fryboy

06-15-2010, 02:17 PM

i'd also pull a boolit and make sure that ur crinp/seating die isnt sizing them down further ...

KCSO

06-15-2010, 02:20 PM

I am currently using both a lyman 180 and a Lee T/L 175 in my 40 Smith and a 40 Xd. I am shooting w/w and tin at about 850 fps with Bullseye powder and get very little leading. I size to 402. I don't push them over 900 fps and I use a little harder mix than straight wheel weights. The flattened sheets you mentioned are probably pure lead or cloe to it. This will make your mix a little softer. I can't comment on your powder but I have noticed that some powders in some guns are more prone to leading.

You might actually want to try a little faster power in the 40. I just shot 40 rounds through my S and W this morning and got no leading at all with B/E, if I had been shooting unique I would have had traces of lead and another 100 rounds would have been a cleaning chore.

geargnasher

06-15-2010, 02:35 PM

PLEASE SLUG YOUR BORE! I think the main issue is the boolits are too small for the bore and that's most of the problem. .401" is probably too small causing poor bore obturation, gas blowby, and hence the leading.

I shoot straight ww +2% tin, air cooled to about 14 bhn in my M&P .40, it slugs .401" right on the money and I size .402". I use Lonshot up to 6.2 grains and HS6 up to 8.0 grains, the latter has more oomph than factory Jacketed of the same weight, I have zero leading and accuracy is surprisingly good from this stock gun.

You may still have issues with your dies squeezing the boolits down some more or your alloy being too soft, but correct the fit first.

Gear

redbird1976

06-15-2010, 02:47 PM

Just for grins and giggles I went and loaded up some of the same rounds with bullseye powder. As I type this I'm waiting for my shooter's choice to do its work. I'm thinking that I have a bad batch of bullets and that they may be undersized @
.401. By the way, 4.5 grains of bulleye @ 1.115 makes major, is soft shooting and very accurate. On the downside 20 rounds left large chunks of lead in the barrel.

I'm going to load up a few rounds with Unique and see how they do. If they don't work, I'm going to start over and recast and resize.

Do I need to wait any specific length of time before I load and fire freshly cast bullets?

redbird1976

06-15-2010, 03:26 PM

Update: I slugged the bore of my pistol. It measures .401. So I guess my next step will be to recast and resize to .402.

GBertolet

06-15-2010, 03:44 PM

I have a Para P16 with a Nowlin barrel I use for IPSC. It has a .399.8 grove diameter. I had gotten leading with .400 and .401 bullets out of my Lyman 170 gr mold. I was using WW to cast with. I was lucky my bullets dropped at .402. I now heat treat them and shoot them as cast with no more leading. I originally feared the bullets would shatter on hitting steel targets and not take them down, as they are more brittle, but my fears were unfounded as the bullets worked fine. Most cast bullets harden to maximum in about two weeks, depending on the alloy. If your bullets are sufficiently hard to begin with, you can use them right away.

fredj338

06-15-2010, 11:18 PM

Update: I slugged the bore of my pistol. It measures .401. So I guess my next step will be to recast and resize to .402.

There ya go. That & I think your alloy is a bit soft for pressures you are generating. As you found out, faster powders are often worse for leading. Add some tin to youyr alloy or more ww. I shoot pretty much straight ww for my 9mm, 40s & magnums, 50/50 lead/ww in the 38sp, 45acp & 45colt work fine at the lower pressures. I lube using Lar's CarnubaRed.

geargnasher

06-15-2010, 11:40 PM

Update: I slugged the bore of my pistol. It measures .401. So I guess my next step will be to recast and resize to .402.

We wouldn't steer you wrong.

Make sure that those are .402" all the way around or you won't be improving things much. You mentioned out-of-round measurements above IIRC. While you're at it, recast those using just clip-on wheel weight metal, none of that soft stuff. Add a little tin (lead-free solder works) 1-2%, and wait at least a week before shooting them.

OR..... you could use the soft alloy you already have and try dropping the boolits from the mould straight into a bucket of ice water and then wait a week before shooting them, if there is the amount of antimony present that I suspect from your description that might just be enough to harden to maybe bhn 15 or so, and that would be perfect.

Gear

redbird1976

06-16-2010, 01:55 PM

Thanks for all the input. I was doing some searching online last night. I noticed that neither RCBS nor Lyman offer dies in .402 diameter. Does this mean a trip to the local tool and die maker?

redbird1976

06-22-2010, 06:47 PM

I talked to customer service at RCBS. Long story short, my sizing die is undersized. My die was sizing them to .399 or .400. They said to send it back and they will replace it. I recast the bullets today. I added some tin and a few more wheelweights. I also water dropped them. They measured .402-.410 out of the mould. I'm gonna give RCBS a shot at replacing the die. If the replacement die still causes leading, I'm going to see in I can get someone to open it up a couple of thousandths.

shootinxd

06-23-2010, 07:29 AM

Please let us know what the fix is ( i also has some issues with my 40xd).Leading is not to bad,but I would like mine no lead.

redbird1976

06-23-2010, 11:22 AM

No problem, I'll keep you posted.

geargnasher

06-23-2010, 03:10 PM

Redbird, not to keep harping on you but if your boolits are .401" at any point with the same sized groove dimension you will likely get a little gas-cutting and resulting leading as the gasses blow by the skinny sides of the boolits. Maybe you won't, but the possibility exists. You're looking for .402-3" so the sizer has something to work with. I would check the mould and figure out why it is casting out-of-round boolits. Maybe a slight lapping or Beagling is in order.

I just cast a pile of Lee 175tc .40s last weekend out of WW +2% tin and water-dropped them, I'm curious how the harder boolits will perform in this particular gun. I'm going to step back the charge and work them up again, I'll keep you posted if they work better than air-cooled.

Gear

redbird1976

06-23-2010, 08:09 PM

Well, I spent three dollars to mail the die back to rcbs. I stopped by the local junior college and got the machining instructor to measure my die. It spec'd out at .3995. I figure once I get the new die that I will have to have it opened up. But, I decided to go ahead and give customer service the opportunity to fix the problem. The machine shop said they could open it up for me if it didn't work at .401. I want see if they will work at .401 since all of the previous ones were .400. I recast and realloyed my bullets to the formula rcbs gave me to see if there was any spring back with the die. There was none. The sized bullets were still .400 with no spring back of any sort. I check both my water dropped and air cooled bullets.

I need to clarify a point. My moulds are not casting bullets out of round. When I refer to the bullets ranging in diameter from .399 to .400 after being sized, that was the result of bullets being different sizes depending on which cavity of the mould from which they fell. I'm sorry for the confusion regarding the bullets being out of round.
Some of the cavities cast smaller bullets, .402 unsized, and some cast larger bullets, .405 unsized. The majority were either .402 or .403.

I guess worst case scenario would be to have to get a .406 sizing die. I presume given that would size the .405's to .403 or .404. and leave the .402's unsized but lubed; which would probably be ok.

redbird1976

06-23-2010, 08:15 PM

Sounds good let me know how the harder bullets work out. The ones I recast are definitely harder than the first batch. My thumbnail doesn't leave a mark in these. Unfortunately, I'm shut down until I get my new die.

I took the preivous bullets and filled my lee pot about 3/4 full, added about a 1/2 pound extra of wheel weights, and three or four onces of lead free solder (95% tin, 5% copper). I water dropped the bullets to cool.

geargnasher

06-24-2010, 01:19 AM

"I guess worst case scenario would be to have to get a .406 sizing die. I presume given that would size the .405's to .403 or .404. and leave the .402's unsized but lubed; which would probably be ok."

Redbird, I'm not sure what you mean by .406". You want to "slug" your bore with a soft lead slug and measure it to determine groove diameter, then go at least one thousandth over that with your die.

With antimonial alloys, the boolits will often spring back .0005" or so, so they might end up bigger than the hole in the die. If your die is a .402", which it is likely to need to be if the gun has a .401" groove diameter, it should swage everything bigger down to near that, and that's the point of sizing. UNIFORMITY from varying boolit size.

Gear

redbird1976

06-24-2010, 12:33 PM

The .406 die is the next size up above the .401 from RCBS or Lyman. My thought is that if I can't get a properly sized .402 die that the .406 will lube the .402 without distorting their size or shape. Any bullets that are larger than .402 would likely be sized down to a more acceptable .403 or .404 diameter.

I had my original .401 die measured by a machinist. The bore of the die measured
.399 and the ram was .3995. I figured the .002 difference was a design characteristic of the die. That would put the bore of the .406 die at an actual diameter of .404.

Assuming that I read the the calipers correctly, my barrel slugs out at .401. So a .402 is ideal and the .403 or .404 may be ok depending on how hard the lead is. I fully expect that I will have to have my .401 die customized to size to .402.

geargnasher

06-24-2010, 04:47 PM

Keep in mind that manufacturing tolerances won't yield absolute results, so don't assume anything until you measure it. You need pin gauges and a micrometer to check die size, or cast a few pure lead slugs in your mould in the largest cavity and run them through the sizer a couple of times and measure that with a micrometer. If you use antimonial slugs for checking die size they may spring back a bit, which is why the die is probably undersized to begin with.

If I had a mould throwing boolits as varying as the one you have does, I would throw it in a lake and see if it floats. If it does, I'd swim out to get it, send it back, and ask for another one. At least it isn't casting .399"!!

You can and should lap your sizing die to around .402", you won't get anywhere using a .406" especially if your mould is throwing boolits all over the map on size. BOOLITS MUST FIT TO PERFORM PROPERLY, this is probably the most important rule I've found in casting. Ignore all else until you get that sorted out.

Gear

redbird1976

06-25-2010, 11:52 AM

I fully agree that sizing is the issue of primary importance. I will get it sorted out shortly. Thanks for all the input:).

geargnasher

06-28-2010, 01:04 AM

Ok, as promised, I have a range report from the harder .40 boolits.

I backed off almost a grain of HS6 from what I was doing before, and ONLY changed the boolit hardness. Same lube, sizing, coal, headstamp, primer, etc.

Groups were much tighter than with air-cooled metal, SAME alloy as I was using before. Air-cooled and aged was 14 bhn, WD a week old was 23 bhn, zero leading in the M&P .40 and I shot several 10-shot groups at 25 yards that were under two inches with just a wrist rest!! Judging by the way it shot, I feel someone who is a better pistol shot with better eyes could get it into an inch easily, and this is a stock gun with a terrible trigger and three-dot sights.

Keep in mind that with three different factory jacketed loads ranging from target to self-defense loads, gun consistently through many boxes "patterned" 6-10" at 25 yards off a bench with two different shooters. I think I gots it nailed now.

Gear

redbird1976

06-28-2010, 07:37 PM

Good deal. I'm glad it worked out for you. I water dropped the batch of mine. I'm ready to get my new die and get everything dialed in so I can shoot more.

9.3X62AL

06-28-2010, 08:24 PM

Getting the boolits squared away diametrically may be only half the battle--though I believe you are on the right track.

Check the dimensions of the expander spud that's doing the work on your cases. The RCBS spud that came with my die set mic'ed @ .396", and with alloys like WW a difference of .005" between expander spud diameter and boolit diameter can cause boolit diameter reduction during the seating process. I use a Lyman Multi-Expander Die that allows expanding AND powder-charging on my Ponsness-Warren semi-progressive. Its expander spud diameter is .398", and I'm using 92/6/2 alloy with the Lee 175 TC sized at .401"/verified. No leading at all in both the CZ-75B and the Glock 23/Storm Lake barrel.

As another poster alluded to--DON'T squeeze down the seated boolits in a taper crimp die, either. AFAIC, taper crimp dies and cast boolits are oil and water--THEY DON'T MIX. All that is needed is to straighten the seating flare at the case mouth, AND NO MORE. The sizer die--with just a light "kiss" at the case mouth, is sufficient (remove the decapping assembly). Taper crimp dies are a machination of the Devil, as far as cast boolits in autopistols are concerned. Bought for what they're truly worth--and sold for what gunrags and pundits say they're worth--would yield decadent profits.

The 9mm, 40 S&W, and 10mm are really rifle rounds in pistol clothing. They run at high pressures--their barrels often use VERY fast twist rates--so I treat them like my rifles, when using cast boolits. Harder alloys--fanatical adherence to achieving dimensional integrity AND NOT DESTROYING IT via the reloading process--pays rich dividends at the range. 9mm and 40 S&W are NOT "basic" or "beginner" calibers for reloaders, esp. when cast boolits are on the menu. At least the 40 S&W caliber barrels adhere closely to SAAMI specs.......9mm can be all over the map. I haven't found lube characteristics to be critical--Alox/beeswax is fine, as was Lyman Ideal. Size trumps all.

HTH, and best of luck with that 40 S&W project.

geargnasher

06-29-2010, 12:40 AM

Al, you make several good points that are often overlooked, even by more experienced shooters. When I first tackled the .40, my approach was like the .45ACP, similar case, right? just a tad smaller, no big deal. WRONG. I've never loaded j-words for it, started right with cast, and while doing the necessary pre-loading research I noticed the powder charges. holy cow, almost as much of a given powder as I use in .45 Colt! Nearly 25,000cup! 1100+ fps! I realized right quick that this is really a magnum pistol cartridge, NOT like a little .38 spl or even the mighty .45 ACP, so I'd better treat it like one. I started with softer alloy because I prefer it, but often the guns don't. It really showed up at the range when I hardened up the alloy for the M&P. I've already run through the loading dies, actually threw away the carbide post-sizer die because I couldn't think of a single good use for it. My expander ball is .398", right on the money for .004" neck tension, and, while I DO use the taper crimp, it's only for just barely removing the flare as you say. I do this also for the .45 ACP, case tension alone holds the boolit. I set the crimp die up using a mic and a dummy, when it's a cylinder from the base of the boolit to case mouth, it has enough crimp.

BTW, what's the difference between loading for pistol and rifle? Do some people actually expect so little from pistols that they don't even TRY for the same fit and technique associated with rifle reloading?

Gear

StarMetal

06-29-2010, 01:01 AM

I'm still stuck on the sizer die being .399 and the ram pin is .3995. That's kind of tight. When the die is new and clean of any lube or debris you should be able to push that ram pin through with your finger easy.

Another thing overlooked besides the bullet springing back some is that when they age for a long time they get fatter.

truckmsl

06-29-2010, 02:13 PM

Harder boolits have always worked better for me with .40 S&W. The Lyman "M" die is also helpful.

redbird1976

07-06-2010, 05:48 PM

I got my replacement die from RCBS today. It was still too small for my application. It sized the bullets to .399". It has been mentioned in previous posts that I should be able to lap the sizing die to get the extra .002" that I need. How would I go about lapping the sizing die were I so inclined?

The die is a .401 die.

BLTsandwedge

07-06-2010, 06:50 PM

Redbird,

In your original post you mentioned the mould was dropping between .401 and .403. Have you tried segregating them, lubing with a tumble-lube type product and shooting them as-cast? I do this for my .38 S&W top break that sports a groove diameter of .360- I can take advanage of a custom (Mountain) mould that accidentally drops 100g WCs at .361. Works very well- amazing to see that 110 year old shoot so well. The only drawback is using tumble lube.

oldtoolsniper

07-06-2010, 07:23 PM

9.3X62AL

07-06-2010, 07:38 PM

redbird1976

07-06-2010, 08:33 PM

If that mold is dropping .402 and .403 then why are you not shooting those as cast to determine if that is the problem? If the mold is dropping .401, .402,.403,.404, etc. segregate the boolits, pan lube them and determine what works before you attempt lapping the sizing die. I would also buy a lee sizer to practice my lapping on. After attempting to make a top punch I discovered a few things about metal work.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=48453

I have shot precisely one as cast that I hand lubed; no leading. As to the question of pan lubing, I've never tried it. My lovely wife tried to round up the ingredients for me tonight while she was grocery shopping. She couldn't find the parafin. I'll try and locate some tomorrow while I'm out and about.

I'm probably going to run the die by the junior college and let them open it up .002 for me. As to my desire to use the lubrisizer, it lets me get a consistently sized and lubed bullet.

I forgot to add that I slugged the barrel. It slugged out to .401. My previous sizing die sized to .400. My new replacement die sizes to .399. I know without a doubt that the first batch of bullets was too small and probably a little too soft. I recast them adding a few more wheel weights, a little tin, and using tallow for flux. This batch was water dropped they were noticeably harder than the last batch. I couldn't mark them with my fingernail. I could make a pretty good dent in the others.

I plan to give the as cast method a try. I don't have a means to lube them at the moment. Like I said previously, I'll try and rectify that tomorrow.

redbird1976

07-06-2010, 08:49 PM

Good question, as to the 'why' pistol/revolver shooters don't pay the closer attention to dimensions that rifle shooters do. My guess would be that lower-intensity pistol rounds--those running pressures from 7,500-18,000 PSI--are a lot more forgiving of variances, and many of those revolvers and pistols have had VERY GOOD dimensions over the years--38 Special and 45 ACP come to mind in that context.

Once a shooter ventures into rifle country with cast boolits, he knows he's in a foreign jurisdiction to a large degree. Such trips more than encourage a traveler to cross every "T" and dot every "i". Learning the language helps a lot, too. THAT might be the greatest contribution this site makes to the shooting hobbies at large--translation of the lingua franca. 120 years ago, a lot of what we re-discover here was common knowledge, because lead projectiles were the state of the art. A lot of what was once known has been set aside and forgotten, and often buried by the passage of time and/or commercial and marketing concerns of component makers. A lot of what we do here is more an exhumation than a re-discovery, truth to tell.

In my case, my lack of strict attention to detail has to do with the volume of shooting that I do. I shoot USPSA so I shoot a lot. I'll easily go through 1,000 .40 S&W rounds per month provided I have the components to keep them loaded. I took up casting for the .40 because I have already shot up my allottment of jacketed bullets for the year (except the 700 or so that I have loaded for my next major match). I don't have a convenient source of my jacketed bullets in the quantity that I need. So, I've been trying to cast a few so I can get some more practice in this summer. So far, I have about 1,000 unlubed cast projectiles. I've been having a devil of a time getting getting a cast set up to work.:groner:

oldtoolsniper

07-06-2010, 09:12 PM

It took me a lot of trial and error to get mine running without leading. I am shooting a Taurus 24/7 compact. I just ran 500 rounds through it yesterday with the same boolit you are using. I made my own basic Felix lube and I size mine to .401 pushed by 4.8gr of Bullseye. I was loading ten of this and ten of that and running out to shoot then scrub the barrel while thumping my head on the wall. Straight Wheel Weights and the load as mentioned did it for my gun. I tried different things for three months and then it worked. Do yourself a favor and keep notes, I wish I had because this gun challenged me and I finely prevailed. Now I can't remember everything I did and that is a shame.

You can pan lube with the stuff you have. You can even put it in the lube groove with your fingers, It does not have to be pretty, just lubed. I used to lube all my black powder stuff that way.

redbird1976

07-08-2010, 02:03 AM

:Fire: I pan lubed and shot a few as cast and a few that I sized down. My initial observation is that pan lubing is a major pain. I will be going to the school in the morning to let them open up my sizing die a couple of thousandths. My reject rate is way too high shooting as cast. I can say for certain this batch of water quenched bullets is much harder than the first batch that I made.

Here's the data for today's test:

180gr tc from lee mold as cast .402-.405 diameter
4.5 grains of bullseye
magtech small pistol primer
homemade barry darrow lube
good accuracy very little leading

180gr tc from lee mold sized to .399-.400 diameter from .410-.415
4.5 grains of bullseye
magtech small pistol primer
homemade barry darrow lube
very good accuracy severe leading

I think we can see that what has been said many times already is that fit the primary factor in determining how much leading you will have. I've got to get the lubrisizer up and running. I'm not digging the variation in diameter with the as cast bullets or the pan lubing. The homemade lube seems to working well though.

geargnasher

07-08-2010, 04:00 PM

I'm lost on how that mould can drop .410-.415", must be a typo, you said in the op they were only up to .405 or so.

Personally, I would recommend just casting from one cavity, the .402" one, get some quality boolits from that one, hand lube them, and try that. Also, the .40 doesn't like fast powders IME, HS6, Longshot, Blue Dot, True Blue, and some of the slower AA pistol powders work well.

You're after not only fit, but consistent fit. You can't expect good accuracy with a huge spread in boolit diameter.

Gear

redbird1976

07-08-2010, 05:27 PM

Nope, it's not a typo. One of the cavities is dropping an oversized bullet. I had couple that wouldn't chamber as cast. I pulled them one was .410 the other was .415. The only thing I can figure is that either I didn't have the mould closed tight or the tin I added to the mix filled the bullets out more than I thought. I'm going to clean the mould before I cast any more. I may have beagled it a little by accident when I lubed it up for the second batch that I casted.

On a related note, I dropped the sizing die off at the junior college this morning. The instructor is going to hone it out .002 for me. Sizing should help in producing a consistent bullet.

You say longshot is too fast for a lead .40? I was under the impression it is a slower burning powder. I'm getting ready to work up a lower pressure major load for competition. I've been using longshot. I haven't shot enough of them to form an opinion yet. In general, I like that the longshot seems to be easier on the cases.

That'll Do

07-09-2010, 11:03 AM

Gearnasher is recommending all the powders he listed, he was saying that fast powders aren't recommend, in his experience. ("IME" means "in my experience").

9.3X62AL

07-09-2010, 03:26 PM

WW-231 has been a good powder for me in 40 S&W cast boolit loads, but Herco gets the nod more often.

One GREAT load for lighter work is 4.0 x WW-231 and the Lee 175 TC @ 1.135" OAL. These run between 800 and 825 FPS from the CZ-75B and Glock 23, and function reliably. They weren't 100% reliable in the Beretta 96, however--a few would "trap empties" instead of cycling fully. 4.2 grains of WW-231 brought that anomaly to a halt.

geargnasher

07-09-2010, 03:48 PM

What I was saying about powders is that Bullseye is way too fast for what you're trying to do here based on my own results, and your last two posted loads say you were using Bullseye:

(quote)
Here's the data for today's test:

180gr tc from lee mold as cast .402-.405 diameter
4.5 grains of bullseye
magtech small pistol primer
homemade barry darrow lube
good accuracy very little leading

180gr tc from lee mold sized to .399-.400 diameter from .410-.415
4.5 grains of bullseye
magtech small pistol primer
homemade barry darrow lube
very good accuracy severe leading
(end quote).

As I said, Longshot will work well. I have used all of the powders I listed, I worked up to near Hodgdon book max for the Lyman 175 grain tcbb boolit with a similar Lee boolit. HS6 is my favorite so far due to perfect loading density with my gun, my boolits, my brass, and my final COAL selection (played with COAL plenty).

Gear

redbird1976

07-09-2010, 08:11 PM

Oh ok, yeah I'm switched back to longshot today. Bullseye happened to be what I had in the press the other day when I loaded those test rounds. Thanks for the info[smilie=s:

redbird1976

07-10-2010, 07:06 PM

I'm glad to report that I shot the gun today without any excessive leading. I fired a couple hundred rounds at a local match. The accuracy was good. I did notice the lead bullets tended to impact a little higher than my jacketed bullets. I cleaned the gun when I got home. There was little to no leading in the barrel. There were only a couple of smears near the beginning of the rifling. They came out easily with a bronze brush and some Hoppe's #9. I may try loading the bullets a little longer, but I'm pretty close to the max length with my magazines in my CZ. All of the bullets I shot today were pan lubed and shot as cast. Hopefully Monday I can get my sizing die back and it will be opened up enough to size the .402 that I need for my gun.

My load today was:
180 TC lead over 5.7 grains of longshot with magtech or winchester primers. It shot fairly soft, and it didn't smoke too bad. I didn't chrono these, but they should make major. The last ones that I chronoed were sized to .399 and still averaged about 960 fps.

It was all around a good weekend of shooting:Fire:

geargnasher

07-10-2010, 11:52 PM

Good deal. That's a really soft load of Longshot, probably why it worked so well. If you speed it up a bit when you are able to load .402" boolits your POI will come down. Not to contradict what I said above, but if you want ligher loads and the same POI as your factory stuff you will need to use a much faster powder, like Titegroup or Bullseye. If you approach factory velocities you will find that Longshot and HS6 are right in the same POI window as similar weight factory loads.

Keep chuggin', you've solved a bunch of problems and learned a lot already. Pretty soon you'll be haunting the tire shops late at night.....

Gear