Fluxing with Sawdust

[prickett]

2 casting sessions ago I started fluxing with sawdust. My lead looked better than I've ever seen it. Then, I cast the following time and the resulting boolits looked dirty.

My technique is to flux with sawdust (about the size of a golf ball) stirring it into the lead fairly aggressively. I scrape the side of the pot and the pour mechanism. I then skim off the sawdust, leaving a mirror finish looking pot of lead. I then sprinkle more sawdust across the top to reduce oxidation. I then start pouring.

Does this sound like the correct technique? Could the "dirt" be ash from the lead (that didn't float to the top)?

Also, I tried covering the pot with foil to reduce oxidation. After pouring a while, I removed the foil and looked in. There was a caramel color on top of the lead. Is covering with foil recommended? And, what was the coloring I saw?

[oneokie]

How much sawdust are you adding before you start pouring? Enough to make a blanket on top of the melt?

Did you start with a clean empty pot this session? If not, the dirt could be impurities from the alloy that was in the pot.

How clean are your ingots? Could there be impurities in the ingots?

The caramel coloring could be from the sawdust ash.

Your technique sounds good.

Was there any flecks of lead stuck to the pot walls and the metering rod when you removed the foil? If there was, you need to add more sawdust.

With a good covering of sawdust on top of the melt, the foil really isn't necessary.

[qajaq59]

I usually let the saw dust turn to ash before I stir it in. (A match helps.) If that is the perfect way to do it, I don't really know? But it seems to work well.

[XWrench3]

i flux with sawdust, and parafin. i flux with parafin first, stirring the heck out of it. then with the sawdust. but i do not remove it. i THINK that i get the best results that way.

[qajaq59]

Just as a side note: If you use cedar saw dust the wife wont mind do bad.

[ghh3rd]

I usually let the saw dust turn to ash before I stir it in. (A match helps.) If that is the perfect way to do it, I don't really know? But it seems to work well.
__________________
Qajaq59
There was a thread on this recently, where the OP said that he lets the sawdust burn up on the surface and then stirs in into the lead, with excellent results. Apparently, mixing the unburned wood into the lead has no benefit, and you are actually exposing the lead to more oxygen unnecessarily.

[Bret4207]

What kind of pot and where is it stored? When I went from a cast pot or steel pot to stainless my dross dropped by half or more. If it's stored where dust and dirt can get in it then you'lll have dirt in the pot as soon as it melts.

[Hondo Lane]

Any particular type of sawdust? Hardwood,Softwood?

[dragonrider]

"lets the sawdust burn up on the surface and then stirs in into the lead, with excellent results."
Letting it burn to ash before mixing will prevent a visit from the tinsel fairy, because no matter how dry you think sawdust is "IT ISN'T". it is the ash you want anyway, mixing it before it turns to ash dosen't really help.

[qajaq59]

Sawdust, or most anything that turns into carbon will work. Some guys even use leaves. I like the cedar because it smells better, but anything will do.
And Dragonrider is absolutely right. It is NOT as dry as you may think it is, so be careful.

[gray wolf]

I have also switched to saw dust for the last 6 weeks or so. I am using pine shavings that my friend gave me, they are gotten by the big bag at the feed store.
They are used for animal cages and he uses them for his chickens.
Mine are clean right out of the bag. I place about a 1/4 to 1/2 inch on top of my melt
and let it turn brown ( nice and dry ) then I stir it into the mix. After that I let it sit on top of the mix. If it looks dirty I skim it off and add fresh and let it sit on top of the melt.
It does a great job in that if you move it to the side with a spoon the metal is like a mirror
under the saw dust. That tells me it is not oxidizing very much. (good thing )
Sometimes I add a little wax , the saw dust seems to soak it up and then I stir both into the wax.
The whole proses seems to work out OK.

But I have noticed that I get black dirt in my bullets for quite a while after I use saw dust.
I stir a lot--I stir a little, I skim off the dirt, I leave it alone. It seems to make dirt of some kind that does not float to the top. I also stir with a wood stick.
What works best so far for me is to use wax, stir while smoking or burning and then remove the dross. I do not over stir, and then a layer of saw dust to prevent oxidation.
I don't stir the saw dust in anymore.

I think there are other folks who are having this problem also.
I would like to know why ? I think the saw dust is a good flux and I would like to know why we are having this problem or what we are doing wrong.
It seem this would be a good thing to get to the bottom of.
What say you all.

EDIT to say--yes my pot has been cleaned many times and my metal is clean.
Sam

[justingrosche]

I was ladle casting yesterday and noticed some thing I was unintentionally doing. I fluxed ( I use Borax) but the slotted spoon I was stirring with had dross and dirt stuck to it and would re contaminate my melt. Doh!

[geargnasher]

Due to the weight and surface tension of the melt, wood ash from the sawdust, or more particularly, the stick used to stir, will get trapped under the lead on the bottom of the pot, just like drops of water in the bottom of a cup full of diesel or gasoline. These pockets of ash gravitate toward the spout on a bottom-pour and will form little inclusions in your boolits.

Proponents of sawdust fluxing sometimes fail to tell the whole story: I, for example, use a bottom-pour almost exclusively, but NEVER scrape the bottom of the pot with a stick, only the sides, that way the ash can work it's way to the top. I forget to mention that detail sometimes. Bret4207 also mentions using sawdust and agressive pot-stirring with a stick a lot, but I remember he almost exlusively ladle-casts and it doesn't matter if stuff gets trapped on the bottom. If you didn't know that, you might get cratered boolits.

Sawdust works very well, especially in that you can put extra on top after fluxing/cleaning/skimming and just let it sit there and prevent oxidation while you cast (bottom pour, of course!). You have to take everything in context and remember we all do things a little differently.

Gear

[geargnasher]

I was ladle casting yesterday and noticed some thing I was unintentionally doing. I fluxed ( I use Borax) but the slotted spoon I was stirring with had dross and dirt stuck to it and would re contaminate my melt. Doh!

I personally have found Borax to be highly unsatisfactory for "flux" for a multitude of reasons, and it is perfectly worthless for ladle-casting. You might give sawdust a try, or chips off of old candles. MUCH easier to skim, leaves a bright shiny surface, and no molten borate glass hanging on your spoon like melted cheese to harden and stick.

Gear

[docone31]

I have found, PAM works well as a surface flux.
Forms a great liquid layer all across the top.
Another solution.

[gray wolf]

So that helps explain why I have better results using wax as my basic flux,
and saw dust as a top layer to prevent oxidation.
for a bottom spout pot--stir the wax--don't stir the saw dust
I like it when we get in dept with the explanations, gives me better understanding.

Thank you

Sam

[Charlie Two Tracks]

I may have to try sawdust again. I stirred the sawdust in right away and was not pleased with how it worked. Maybe if I do it right, I will have better results.

[Crash_Corrigan]

When I am smelting I stir the pea sized dollops of wax well into the mix after the surface has been skimmed with a slotted SS spoon.

Once the flux has had a chance to go to work I get the flat paint stirring sticks and clean down the walls and the base of the smelt pot to get all the debris moving up. If some stays in the bottom, I do not care. I scoop the alloy into a alloy ladle (#4 Rowell) from the shiney stuff at the surface. I do not bother to use CFF or sawdust/shavings in the smelting operation.

Once an ingot has completely melted and the temps are at least 700 degrees I again flux, but not wax.....now is when we use the CFF etc. A thin layer all over the surface is good. I let it burn down to ash and then stir it into the alloy. Now is time to scrape the sides but not the bottom of pot. This is a bottom pour operation.

Once the alloy has hit 750 degrees or more and the mold has been heated also we are ready to cast some boolits. Keeping a layer of CFF on top of the surface of your alloy is an excellent way to prevent oxidation and keep the temps of the alloy more regulated.

[qajaq59]

Gearnasher, I've used the sawdust for a long time and I haven't had that problem. But the stick I've used for years is a hard piece of mahogany and I can't say that I scrap the bottom much with it because by now it is pointed from being burned over time. I mostly stir and scrape the sides as you mentioned, so maybe that explains it.

[gray wolf]

I have gotten dirt in my melt every time I have stirred the saw dust into my melt.
Yes I have been aggressive with the stirring. I can't explain how burnt wood can sink to the bottom of molten lead, but it seems to do just that.
There also seems to be a big difference in weather you are bottom feeding or using a ladle.
I had the same problem with kitty litter causing dirt. The K/L and the S/D both seem to protect the top of the melt but can deposit what amount to dirt in our castings if stirred into the mix.
Today I got out the old H&G #68 4 hole Just to prove to myself that I wasn't getting to old here and forgetting how to cast.
I remelted all the screw up bullets from my now pain in the a$$ brass mold. I used new smelted alloy with 2% tin and the old alloy without the tin.
Well you would have thought it was raining bullets. I had to refill the old 10# pot
every 10 to 12 Min. casting on # 4--Yup #4 on the old lee pot.
I got a pile WC's to last most the summer. I guess I blew through 25 pounds of metal.
I say without any jesting they were some nice bullets--no dirt and no pock marks on one side of the bullet. like the brass mold.
I fluxed like I said above. Wax, stir while smoking, skim the top, and then
a cover of saw dust and leave it alone. I did not stir the saw dust into the mix, and I wont in the future --ever. Doing so has ruined 4 or 5 casting sessions so far and it wont anymore.
Do as you may --but for me enough is enough.
As a side note I think when we explain things in the future we should try not to leave out little details, There are to many new folks coming on and we could make life a little nerve racking for them, and for some of us old casters.
WOW did I say old--am I old now? I got to stop using that word.
I think for me the most learning happens when we stay on a subject and grind out the problems.

Sam

[geargnasher]

I have gotten dirt in my melt every time I have stirred the saw dust into my melt.
Yes I have been aggressive with the stirring. I can't explain how burnt wood can sink to the bottom of molten lead, but it seems to do just that. It doesn't "sink", bits of ash/charcoal shed off of the tip of your stirring stick as it ablates in the hot melt. If you're scraping the bottom, that junk will be trapped underneath.
There also seems to be a big difference in weather you are bottom feeding or using a ladle.
I had the same problem with kitty litter causing dirt. The K/L and the S/D both seem to protect the top of the melt but can deposit what amount to dirt in our castings if stirred into the mix. Same principle as above. BTW, Kitty Litter doesn't actually reduce oxides back into the melt.
Today I got out the old H&G #68 4 hole Just to prove to myself that I wasn't getting to old here and forgetting how to cast.
I remelted all the screw up bullets from my now pain in the a$$ brass mold. I used new smelted alloy with 2% tin and the old alloy without the tin.
Well you would have thought it was raining bullets. I had to refill the old 10# pot
every 10 to 12 Min. casting on # 4--Yup #4 on the old lee pot.
I got a pile WC's to last most the summer. I guess I blew through 25 pounds of metal.
I say without any jesting they were some nice bullets--no dirt and no pock marks on one side of the bullet. like the brass mold.
I fluxed like I said above. Wax, stir while smoking, skim the top, and then
a cover of saw dust and leave it alone. I did not stir the saw dust into the mix, and I wont in the future --ever. Doing so has ruined 4 or 5 casting sessions so far and it wont anymore.
Do as you may --but for me enough is enough.
As a side note I think when we explain things in the future we should try not to leave out little details, There are to many new folks coming on and we could make life a little nerve racking for them, and for some of us old casters. I agree, but ultimately a person must engage their own problem-solving skills rather than be spoon-fed every detail that we could possibly anticipate. The best I can do is tell it how I do it and try to watch for someone who's struggling with something and ask questions/offer tips when I can.
WOW did I say old--am I old now? I got to stop using that word.
I think for me the most learning happens when we stay on a subject and grind out the problems. Yes, indeed!

Sam

I've learned more here in less than two years than in 15 years on my own, thanks to all the helpful folks here, on topics similar to this. When I get all the answers to all the questions you can call ME old! :kidding:

Gear

[qajaq59]

I've learned more here in less than two years than in 15 years on my own, That's because we're all learning from everyone elses mistakes and experiments. It would take forever to make that many on your own. :mrgreen:

[Hondo Lane]

This is the first time I have heard of sawdust -fluxing and I have been casting for 30 years.

[gray wolf]

I think this has been a wonderful discussion,
and I would like to thank everyone for adding to it.------------- I agree we can't hold everyones hand, perhaps I/we-- choose the wrong words sometimes and it comes across the wrong way.
But to me the important thing is that you all pick up on things and are happy to go deeper and help folks get to the bottom of the problem.
I was having a heck of a time with the saw dust thing, and I believe it has been solved.
A sticky would be nice, we could call it---So you want to flux with saw dust--
Anyway, good job men.

Sam

[qajaq59]

The forums are here so we can all learn from each other. And if we pick the wrong word once in a while, I don't think anyone should really get upset about it. No one I know is perfect.
And this was a good thread. It had all the pros and cons so that people can chose what to do and know what problems to look for.

[geargnasher]

The main reason I like to use sawdust is it seems to help re-alloy antimony when it does its "oatmeal" thing on top of the melt, especially if I'm adding babbit, type metal, or high-antimony lead alloy to a pot. May be my imagination, but it works for me.

One more thing I just learned recently by "accident" is when "smelting" scrap lead in my iron pot on the outdoor fryer burner is to add a cup or so of used engine oil or dirty diesel fuel to a couple handfulls of sawdust to the stuff when I first light the burner, then light the oily sawdust. The extra heat from the burning mess cuts smelting time in half or more, plus provides a low-oxygen enviroment with plenty of carbon-rich soot in which the oxidized scrap can melt. When it's molten, all the oxides are already reduced back in, all I have to do is skim the ash and pour my ingots. I do this outside, of course!

Funny thing is I found out lots of other folks do this same thing, really saves the propane.

Gear

[Zbench]

For what it's worth, definitely agree with the suspended crud hypothesis.

I use a RCBS bottom pour pot. It worked for a few melts and produced great boolits. Over time, virtually all the boolits I cast had some surface inclusions. I tried everything...different fluxes, different techniques casting, you name it.

I recently had some 20:1 in the pot from some 50-70 boolits I was working on. I drained it all out because I wanted to switch over to Lyman #2 to make some .380 HPs with the new Miha mould I recently got. I do most of my casting at night in the garage after things quiet down, so I drained the pot and quit for the evening.

By chance, I had time during the day to cast some, so I returned to the pot. Since it was bright in the garage, I noticed to my surprise a thick, like 1/16" thick, layer of crud on the walls of the pot. I used to use that blasted marvelux flus and it was the residue from that I imagine.

Since I obviously didn't want to start with all that in there, I took a wire wheel on my hand drill and cleaned it out. Since the pot liner is stainless steel on the RCBS, I got it all out.

SAFETY NOTE: Airborne lead dust is not good for you...wear a respirator!!!

It took about 10 minutes, but I got the pot back down to shiny. I blew it out with compressed air outside, cleaned the nozzle and put it back together. I loaded it up with some fresh Lyman #2 and commenced casting.

I was blown away with the quality of the boolits. A picture is attached. I reasoned that the residue from that Marvellux was coating the sides of the pot. When I would stir the pot, bits of it would break off and contaminate the melt with that stuff. Somehow, as is mentioned above, it would get into the spout and into the boolits.

Since this revelation a few weeks ago, I have only used saw dust. It does not leave any residue like wax or marvellux, and the sides of my pot are still clean. Most importantly, all the boolits I cast come out well formed, shiny and with no inclusions.

If your pot is giving you fits, do a thorough cleaning, and only use sawdust. Works for me!

Pete

[257 Shooter]

Pete, Those are some shiny boolits!

[cbrick]

wood ash from the sawdust, or more particularly, the stick used to stir, will get trapped under the lead on the bottom of the pot, just like drops of water in the bottom of a cup full of diesel or gasoline. Gear

Hhmmm . . . I think we need a different comparison here. Not arguing with what your trying to say, it's just that what your using as a comparison isn't quite right, kind of backwards.

Wood ash, saw dust or the carbon from these are far, far lighter than lead and will float on top of the lead.

Water is heavier than oil so the oil will float on top on top of the water.

Rick

[cbrick]

By chance, I had time during the day to cast some, so I returned to the pot. Since it was bright in the garage, I noticed to my surprise a thick, like 1/16" thick, layer of crud on the walls of the pot. I used to use that blasted marvelux flus and it was the residue from that I imagine.

Since I obviously didn't want to start with all that in there, I took a wire wheel on my hand drill and cleaned it out. Since the pot liner is stainless steel on the RCBS, I got it all out.

SAFETY NOTE: Airborne lead dust is not good for you...wear a respirator!!!

It took about 10 minutes, but I got the pot back down to shiny. I blew it out with compressed air outside, cleaned the nozzle and put it back together. I loaded it up with some fresh Lyman #2 and commenced casting.

I was blown away with the quality of the boolits. A picture is attached. I reasoned that the residue from that Marvellux was coating the sides of the pot. When I would stir the pot, bits of it would break off and contaminate the melt with that stuff. Somehow, as is mentioned above, it would get into the spout and into the boolits. Pete

Mr Zbench sir, I couldn't agree with you more. Several years ago I literally threw a full can of Marvelux in the trash. I wouldn't allow that horrid stuff anywhere near my loading/casting room.

Like you I had to use a stiff wire wheel on the drill motor with considerable time and effort to try and clean it off. That was with the RCBS pot which is now clean and completely free of that disgusting white powder. Since I got the Magma 40 pound pot a few years ago it has seen NOTHING but saw dust and the inside is spotless to this day and so are my boolits.

It's not uncommon for me to be asked how my boolits look so good and the answer is very simple, clean alloy, clean pot. So why is my alloy and pot so clean? Simple, very, very simple. Sawdust. No Marvacrap, no wax, no oil. IMHO wax's and oils are only slightly better than Marvacrap, they gunk up the inside of the pot and most wax's and oils stink something horrible.

Flux is like boolit lube, when someone has their favorite there is no talking to them about it, their way is best and that's that. Ok, fine. Let them scratch their heads trying to figure out why they have inclusions in their boolits.

Rick

[Zbench]

Cbrick,

I think the wax, to your point, is also to blame. I used it intermittently in place of marvellux and it burned up, but also left an oily residue on the side of the pot. I think that combinations of marvelux and wax only made the flaking problem worse as it could easily break off inside the pot.

It only stands to reason that a flux that doesn't burn or otherwise cause any kind of residue has to impact the pot and melt LESS than any that does.

When I was struggling with pitted boolits, I search high and low in the archive to find the cause. I never saw anything which led me to this conclusion, so I hope others who see this will also get their pots cleaned up and start enjoying casting instead of fighting it.

Pete

[Cowboy T]

+1 for sawdust. I use it in my Lee Pro 4-20, getting good boolits virtually every time. Oh, and sawdust is cheap and plentiful.

[Three44s]

I quit Marvelux a long time ago ........ I grew tired of the cruded up tools and lead pot ......

My next fluxing agent was boolit lube.

Much better!

Today, I tried a long dried wooden stick for a scraper and sawdust for the fluxing agent.

Never tried this before ....... I have been reading about it here for sometime!

I too had some surface inclusions that I did not get with boolit lube for flux.

My pot is so old it does not even have a name on it (made before written language was invented I suppose ...... LOL!!) and it needs a good rotary brushing!!!

Three 44s

[Hang Fire]

Sawdust, or most anything that turns into carbon will work. Some guys even use leaves. I like the cedar because it smells better, but anything will do.
And Dragonrider is absolutely right. It is NOT as dry as you may think it is, so be careful.

Be aware that western red cedar smoke can induce pulmonary problems for some people. I know that it is a no no for those with asthmatic conditions.

[qajaq59]

Be aware that western red cedar smoke can induce pulmonary problems for some people. I know that it is a no no for those with asthmatic conditions. I don't have asthma, but someone might, so adding that was a good idea.

[dragonrider]

Just reread this post and found a few more who are seeing the great results that sawdust will bring to your leadpot.
Grey Wolf, I would suggest that you not use pine shavings in your pot. Drain your pot, clean it thouroughly and from then on use only hardwood sawdust. this is just a thought but it could be the pitch in the pine is causing your problem. I have a 20 lb Lee pot for about 2 years now and it has seen nothing but sawdust, 99% hardwood. I do not have the problem you describe, the walls of my pot are as clean now as when it was new just darker from heat.

[gray wolf]

Grey Wolf, I would suggest that you not use pine shavings in your pot. Drain your pot, clean it thouroughly and from then on use only hardwood sawdust. this is just a thought but it could be the pitch in the pine is causing your problem. I have a 20 lb Lee pot for about 2 years now and it has seen nothing but sawdust, 99% hardwood. I do not have the problem you describe, the walls of my pot are as clean now as when it was new just darker from heat.


Thank you for your concern

I was under the impression that pine pitch ( resin = Rosen ) was a good thing for fluxing,
and that Rosen was a great flux for stubborn dirty metal.
I am a little up and down over here as for the saw dust. I still think my opinion of it is that
I LIKE IT --I had gone back to wax for the last three or 4 pot fulls and the pot got all dirty again, the bullets were OK but the pot was all crusted up from the wax.
I went back to the saw dust ( pine shavings ) and after three pots of metal my pot is clean again. Outside and inside.
I am back to melting the lead, then adding the saw dust and after it is burned and brownish in color I stir it into the lead and leave it sit as I cast. I have cast a pile of bullets with 2% tin, and some 25/1 and have only had 1 or 2 little specks in 1 or 2 bullets.
I consider that very acceptable. I had introduced an old tree branch into my mix as a stirring stick and I think that is when I had a very hard time with dirt. Who knows ??
I cast this morning with the pine saw dust and some 25/1 and all was OK.
Then again I may have broken loose some baked on crud from the sides of my pot and that may have caused my problem, again who knows.
I have to say that two many people use the saw dust with great success so I am going to retract my statement about never using it again. After all I had good results since I went back to it.
I will look for some hard wood saw dust and see if I can find some.

Sam

[Changeling]

There was some really good information on this posting. It seems that even guys that have been posting for a while have learned new things and people like me who know nothing, are getting first class free lessons on how its done, thanks to all. Still some confusing things so I'll keep lurking for a while.

[Changeling]

What kind of pot and where is it stored? When I went from a cast pot or steel pot to stainless my dross dropped by half or more. If it's stored where dust and dirt can get in it then you'lll have dirt in the pot as soon as it melts.

Hello. First off I've only cast sinkers and jig hooks so I know nothing.

Below i read that you pour almost all of your bullets by ladle casting. Since someone has stolen my new in the box RCBS bottom pour pot I will be casting with a ladle also.

You said that things were better when you went to a Stainless steel pot for casting. I now have NO casting pot so can you tell me what kind of SS pot you use? I have a really good (I hope so) electric commercial heat plate that will go to 1000 deg.
Is your SS pot a kitchen pot, or is it a SS pot specifically designed for guys who ladle casting?

I could really use some help here if you have the time.

[dragonrider]

Ok Wolf looks like you on the road to success. Glad to hear it.

[Three44s]

Changeling,

You might want to PM Bret4207 ...... he might not check in here but will surely fire you back a PM.

Three 44s

[trapper9260]

This pass weekend I melted some lead into igots that I had in blocks and did not know what BHN was so I took each cake and melted it to igots and cast a bullet to test for BHN . But what I use for fluxing is corn cobs that I had a farmer grind for me that I use to clean my brass. I put the corn cobs in after the lead is melted and just put enough to cover the surface and let it burn ,then I mix it in and it seem to draw the dirt to it and it seem to be cleaner then when I was usen wax. When I try to mix it in before it burn all the way it was not doing hardly any cleaning only after it is burn .It will catch on fire .that is when to mix. I will stick with it seam to work for me . Just though you all might be interested in some thing else that could be use.

[ghh3rd]

Thanks for sharing that trapper, letting it burn to ash before stirring it in seems to be the answer.

[qajaq59]

And if you are impatient with waiting for the sawdust to burn, just use charcoal. It's all the same thing. Carbon is carbon.

[redbird1976]

"lets the sawdust burn up on the surface and then stirs in into the lead, with excellent results."
Letting it burn to ash before mixing will prevent a visit from the tinsel fairy, because no matter how dry you think sawdust is "IT ISN'T". it is the ash you want anyway, mixing it before it turns to ash dosen't really help.

Does that mean that I can use the ash from the grill as flux?

[dragonrider]

I can't answer that, never tried it, never thought of it actually. I would think it would work, might be kind of fluffy, more so than wood ash. But that's the great thing about this hobby, you can try it and tell us about it.

[geargnasher]

Ash doesn't do much except cause problems if it gets under the melt and trapped on the bottom of the pot (if you bottom pour).

I seriously doubt the Tinsel Faery cares much about wet sawdust, because you would have a really difficult time getting it so submerge far enough to cause the lead to pop. I stir and futz with my alloy using a 3/4x1/2 hard maple rick about 18" long (when fresh) and it can make some really eerie rumblings when submerged in the pot the first time during a session, so I take it really easy until it dries out well. This wood chars very slowly and makes fine carbon dust that sloughs off as I scrape the sides of the pot and work the surface oxide scum into a little pile on the edge and massage it back into the melt. The carbon gets consumed almost completely in the reduction process so there is next to no ash remaining when I'm through strirring. I only use clear, hard maple or cherry trimmings from a friend's cabinet shop for this because they have no sap or air pockets to blow up when stuck in molten lead.

Gear

[Steel185]

I've been casting for a short time and my boolits come out shootable but not the quality others that have posted look. Mine are not "shinny" more satin bright. I feel i don't really know what I'm doing in the fluxing area. This is all great help, it took me until the 37th post to realize what i was doing wrong, I was using pine also, i think i used sawdist from plywood once, thinking sawdust is sawdust. Also i wasn't using nearly enough. I was grabbing a large pinch between thumband finger and throwing it in. I will track down hardwood sawdust and put in much more.

Just to be sure: When smelting, i need to cover the entire top, let it burn down to ash, then stur it in. Once stured in, spoon out all the resulting trash. Then add some on top to seal it while smelting.

Casting with bottom pour: once alloy is liquid cover surface with hardwood sawdust, let burn and then stur in. Once stured in, spoon out trash and lightly coer top to seal.

Did i miss anything?

[cbrick]

Steel185,

Nothing wrong with using pine sawdust, it doesn't have to be from a hardwood. Plywood sawdust will also work well but I would be more cautious of the smoke because of the glue. Pine sawdust is about 95% of the sawdust I use and from luan the other 5%. This is what I have access to in large quantity at work so it's what I use and have no problems or issues.

Rick

[timkelley]

I use mostly Doug Fir (here it's red fir) with maybe a little pine in it, GOOD STUFF!

[Steel185]

yesterday I had some time and i smelted 130# of wheel weights and used some hickory shavings i bought at Tractor Supply, normally used for rabbit bedding. It worked great. I backed off on the overall temp and just used the hickory shavings, they took longer to smolder to carbon but it worked great. I was expecting a flame, which usually happens when i used sawdust from pine or plywood, the hickory shavings just slowly turned black. I stured it in and let it really burn down, then scraped it off. The lead was great. While i was pouring it into bars, it took longer than i nomally do because i was using a new 20# mold i welded up and it took a bit to cool, even with setting it on a damp towl, there was literaly no oxidation on the surface in the pot. Much better than what i was doing before.

thanks guys, maybe my boolits will come out better now.

[captaint]

Great info here, as always.. I can tell you one thing I will not use again....kitty litter. Been usin it to insulate the top of the melt. But I keep getting dirty boolits. Flux with wax, sawdust and stir with a walnut stick. Dirty boolits. I'm never puttin the kitty litter in the pot again. Anybody have a cat??? enjoy Mike

[PatMarlin]

One point to consider is when you buy a commercial bedding or wood shaving/sawdust product there is NO guarantee what toxins are possibly combined with, by either the gathering of the wood i.e.: sweeping, grinding, loading, packaging etc., and the quality of the wood form source- plywood, OSB, commercial treatments, farm and construction pesticides, formaldehyde, contamination, etc., etc., etc.

I ask why add more unknown toxic elements to lead casting in order to save a buck? Better to use a pure source from nature if using a wood product, one you know the source and processing trail of.

Pure wood shavings should not leave anything in the alloy. I completely stir from the bottom, sides, and up with CFF and all is clean and cast void free shiney boolits.

[WallyM3]

Damn, Pat, I hadn't thought of that, though it makes complete intuitive sense.

:groner:

Thanx!

[gray wolf]

One point to consider is when you buy a commercial bedding or wood shaving/sawdust product there is NO guarantee what toxins are possibly combined with, by either the gathering of the wood i.e.: sweeping, grinding, loading, packaging etc., and the quality of the wood form source- plywood, OSB, commercial treatments, farm and construction pesticides, formaldehyde, contamination, etc., etc., etc.

Well said
Ya know if it were 20 years ago I would poo, poo that observation from the above quote.
But with all the **** that goes on today --well I must take it to heart.
The toxins listed above and many others don't always jump up and bite us at the time of use.
They build in our systems over time, like little bombs from China and even our own careless use of materials and chemicals.
I use saw dust and wood shavings I get locally, but I will do my best to find out the origin of my saw dust or make my own.
T

hanks for the heads up.


SAM

[PatMarlin]

Yah- it's a fact of life now days when everything is the dollar bottom line. You know if someone can turn construction waste into bedding they are gonna do it. What was on the warehouse floor or ground before the wood was dropped on it? Who cares.

I don't make any money on CFF (very little when considering the time invovled making sure it's clean, mixing, and boxing) but it's a good use of God's gift and I hate to waste anything. If you saw my milled old growth lumber, planed- you would be suprised at how absolutely beautiful it is. These are trees that are passed on because of blue stain, borers, beetles, etc. and left to rot.

Even if logging was allowed in the area, a commercial operation passes on them. What a total waste, except for the fact that it gives bugs food and goes back to the earth. I see nothing but an amazing work of art in the wood.

[Romeoburbs]

Great info here, as always.. I can tell you one thing I will not use again....kitty litter. Been usin it to insulate the top of the melt. But I keep getting dirty boolits. Flux with wax, sawdust and stir with a walnut stick. Dirty boolits. I'm never puttin the kitty litter in the pot again. Anybody have a cat??? enjoy Mike

Cats are absoltely no good for fluxing! Noisy too!

Kidding aside I too will be trying sawdust and let's say an oak stir sticl. Should work right?:cbpour:

[Ohio Rusty]

I was also getting little pieces of carbonized wood in my lead even after cleaning it really well. I think what is happening is the lead is so heavy, that it it pinning the dirt and wood ash to the bottom of the pot like Hulk Hogan on a skinny guy.
Even after I stir, and clean quite a few times, during my casting session dirt will again surface, and sometimes the particles will start glowing orange when they come to the top of the lead when exposed to air. I use a pouring ladle to pour my boolits.

Now I flux with either wooden paint sticks, or I get a handfull of the free wooden yardsticks you get at the state fair, and use those as fluxing sticks. I can flux and stir at the same time using a flat stick.
Ohio Rusty ><>

[olafhardt]

My dad told me to use sugar. It works.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
There have been previous threads on this subject.
IIRC one mentioned a problem of little bits of Fe metal from the saw in the saw dust causing a casting problem just as smelting in a rusty cast iron dutch oven does.
Unfortunately I can not remember how this problem was fixed.:Fire::Fire:

[songdog53]

What about adding some wax or old panlube in with sawdust? I use ladle to cast bullets with and have any of u ya'll tried this? I haven't yet but thinking seriously about it.

[cbrick]

Yes, tried that and many other things including olive oil (highly flammable). Have I improved on plain old sawdust. NO! The best I've done is introduce things that gunk up the inside of the pot which sawdust does not.

Here it is explained much better than I could.

From Ingot to Target - Chapter 4 - Fluxing (http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chapter_4_Fluxing.htm)

Or here:

The Simple Act of Fluxing (http://www.lasc.us/FryxellFluxing.htm)

Hope this helps,

Rick

[Longwood]

Has anyone tried walnut shells or the wood pellets?
All of the sources for free sawdust in these parts is from fake lumber that is made from/with glue and often coated with who knows what.
Has anyone tried smashing the pellets and using in place of sawdust? I have lots of clean ashes from the pellet stove and wonder how it will work.

[Longwood]

I scored a 5 gallon bucket of wheel weights Saturday and have been sorting and smelting.
Lots of the new zinc weights but I checked them pretty close and the ones that I could not read, I checked with side cutters.
Yesterday, everything went normally and I got about 35 lbs of good clean ingots.
Today, I did the bottom half of the bucket - in a 12" stainless pot - and turned the heat down as soon as I skimmed off the clips. I dropped in about a tablespoon of paraffin and stirred it in. I got quite a bit of oatmeal which I skimmed and saved then the melt got a blue layer on it. I skimmed it (it took about three or four skims of about 1/2 Tablespoon) and saved the metal in case it is not cadmium or some other bad. The pot now has a very thin golden tint on top so I shut it down to go see if I can find some info and maybe a better flux.

Here are some questions.
Was the oatmeal zinc or aluminum? I think I have some Muriatic around here someplace. I read that I can use it to test for zinc but don't know how to tell if I had aluminum. I would think - not - on the aluminum.
Or,,,was it the tin floating to the top?
Is the blue and gold, cadmium or worse, and how should I get it out of the melt if it is? I seem to remember a thread about using sulfur.

I know this info has probably been covered before and I have been reading and reading but there is a lot of areas to cover and I keep getting side tracked and loosing my place.
I just turned 69 (yeah I am amazed too) and my brain just doesn't keep all of it anymore.
Thanks a million too everyone of you guys that share your valuable knowledge.
:kissarse:

[Doby45]

http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=63550

[Longwood]

http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=63550
What took you so long? ;-)
Thanks.

[lbaize3]

I have a planner that I have used in the past on various types of wood. The thin shavings of wood are placed on top of the melt and lit with a match. When the fire burns out I mix the carbon into the melt and it does a fantastic job of mixing the alloy. But the question I have to ask is why not simply use charcoal bricketts that you have crushed? Or any manner of coal or charcoal? And how about using the corncob that we use in our tumblers?

[Longwood]

Thanks again Doby.
That is what I had read parts of but could not remember where it was.
I just finished reading all 6 pages word, for word and had my questions answered.

[Doby45]

That thread is awesomeness. ;)

[Ohio Rusty]

One thing I have discovered over the years is dirt and ash can indeed get 'trapped' to the bottom or sides of the pot. Even though it is supposed to burn up, it won't completely disappear unless it is removed. It is my speculation that the weight of the lead pins it to the bottom like Hulk Hogan would pin a pencil-neck wrestler to a mat. I have stirred the pot after cleaning out everything only to have embers reappear on the surface and start glowing when they were exposed to air. I wondered where they came from .....

So now when I think it's clean, I scrape the bottom and the sides with a wooden paint stick. I'm surprised when more dirt and ash comes to the surface to be scooped off. When you think it is clean ..... give it one more good stirrin' just in case something is trapped you can't see.
Ohio Rusty ><>

[dragonrider]

"I wondered where they came from" "I scrape the bottom and the sides with a wooden paint stick"
There might be a clue in there someplace!!! :)

[gray wolf]

OK-- so the lead is clean and has a mirror bright look to it, not a speck to be seen.
Now we take our metal spoon and scrape the sides and bottom of the pot.
Well what do you know, specks of dirt and some other debris floating on the surface
So how did that happen ? simple you say, it was stuck to the sides and bottom of the pot.
I released it with the spoon when I scraped the sides and bottom of the pot.
Try it again and you will find all the spots inside the pot that you missed the first time.
Well OK I am going to get every speck of dirt out of this pot, so on and on with the spoon.
Scrape and skim, scrape and skim, at last after a half hour there is no more dirt floating on the surface of the melt and we are sure it is clean. Well it just may be so, at least clean enough for making bullets.
Now take that paint stick and stir and scrape again well darn! look at all that dirt and those small specks of dirt. I guess I missed some with that spoon I was scraping with.
But that old stick sure brought them to the surface.
DID IT ? or did it create more ? regardless if they floated to the top or not, there in there.
Now take a look at the end of that stick, all charred up and burnt isn't it.
So lets think about it, wear did the dirt come from?
If you say they broke off the the burned end of the charred stick you get the prize.
Is it good ? bad ? I don't know, but I do know the stick put dirt in the melt., and it will every time it hits the pot and little pieces break off.
So I think ,ZZZZZZZZZ well it's not dirt, it's Carbon and that's a good thing Eh.
Well carbon is a good thing--it cleans our metal. But the little specks can get trapped in the melt and find there way into the bullets.
So what do we do about it ? I am not sure since everything I just wrote is speculation on my part. But it makes sense, to me anyway.
So do we not use a wooden stick ? after all if we use saw dust and it's posed to be so good then why do we have to follow it up with a burned up old wooden stick ? Isn't all that wood from the saw dust enough ?
Don't know that either, What can it do that a metal spoon can't do ?
as long as we used the saw dust to begin with.
I wouldn't vacuum my floor and then dump the bag on the carpet.
Here is what has worked for me the last few times I cast.
I start with clean looking ingots, Metal is melted and I can see a little dross and some other dirt on top of the melt. I cover it with 3/4 inch of thin wood shavings. I don't light it off because I don't want to fry up my thermometer that I wish to leave in the pot.
I hold off for the 5 or 6 minutes it takes for the saw dust to get brown and dry.
At this point I believe I have enough burnt wood in my pot without the need to add more.
So I push the burned saw dust down with the metal spoon and do all the stirring with it.
Then I take off the burned saw dust and go over the top of the melt with the tip of the spoon. It now has a bright mirror finish on top, no specks of dirt. I scrape the sides and bottom again with the soon and re clean the surface. Put on another 1/2 inch or so of saw dust and leave it alone, This is for a bottom pour pot.
I am not saying don't use a wooden stick, so no need to defend it's use. I am only saying that is can put small pieces of Carbon in the pot that can get trapped in the melt and make it's way into the bullets. One reason I didn't scrape the bottom of my pot with a wooden stick.
After all what hits the bottom of the pot ? the bottom of the stick--right ? Well what is the most fragile part of the stick ? the bottom of it. The part that is the most burned, at least mine is.

[ColColt]

For newcomers to sawdust fluxing this thread is sort of confusing. There are those that curse it and others that highly laud it's use. It all leads me to scratching my head as whether to use it or not. Today a guy at work brought me in a plastic grocery store bag full of super clean sawdust and I was going to use it this Friday(my day off) in a long casting session.

Some say not to sir the bottom of a bottom pour pot and clog the spout while others say all sawdust will float to the top once consumed on the top. It's all kind of confusing and I'm wondering why such a variance of opinion with this flux. Wood is wood and you'd think everyone would have the same results but, in reading these posts I'm not so sure about that.

[Doby45]

The difference is you can NOT push the sawdust down to the bottom of your pot. BUT, you can take and touch the bottom of the pot with your charred stick and when you do you trap some of those broken and charred pieces under the lead. These charred and broken pieces eventually migrate to your pour spout. The key is "Don't touch the bottom of your pot with the wooden stir stick". If you feel the need to scrap the bottom of the pot use a flat piece of metal to scrap the bottom and that should break the stuff off the bottom of the pot and allow it to "float" up.

[truckjohn]

Sawdust is very handy for 1 basic thing.... and that's getting your "Slushy" metallic dross to powder up like it's supposed to..... It's not so good when you mix ash, carbon, and the like down into the melt.... Somehow, it ends up stuck down in there and causes weird problems.... I used a stick to stir once... Never doing that again - it was the ONLY time I have ever had carbon and trash in my boolits...

If you are bottom pouring - it is safe to leave a good layer of ash on top of the melt to insulate it... It also helps make less dross.... Ladle casting... not so much.

Want a good, clean melt - empty your pot after every session. On a new casting session, before you cast after your melt is good and liquid.... scrape the sides of your pot with a metal rod or steel scraper. During the casting session - don't fuss with it. When you stop for a break... scrape the sides and bottom good.... Carefully rake floating trash over to one side and scoop it out. Gently stir the metal - but don't slosh it around. Stirring helps float the dross... Sloshing and violent splashing agitation only makes more dross and pulls chunks of trash down into the lead.

Thanks

[ColColt]

I just recently bought a Lee 4-20 and the inside looks more like Teflon than my old Lyman which is rough looking cast iron. Will stirring with anything metal with the Lee "scrape" or scar the inside? Silly question, yes, I know but that's the way the pot looks inside.

[Doby45]

Nah, you ain't gonna hurt it brother. It isn't teflon it is just clean steel. :)

[ColColt]

I reckon looks are deceiving. It sho nuf looked like Teflon to me. I was fixin' to cook some soup in it.:mrgreen: Being an ol' southern boy, you might enjoy this poem.

Collards is green,
my dog's name is Blue
and I'm so lucky
to have a sweet thang like you.

Yore hair is like cornsilk
a-flapping in the breeze.
Softer than Blue's
and without all them fleas.

You move like the bass,
which excite me in May.
You ain't got no scales
but I luv you anyway.

Yo're as satisfy'n as okry
jist a-fry'n in the pan.
Yo're as fragrant as "snuff"
right out of the can.

You have some'a yore teeth,
for which I am proud;
I hold my head high
when we're in a crowd.

On special occasions,
when you shave under yore arms,
well, I'm in hawg heaven,
and awed by yore charms.

Still them fellers at work,
they all want to know,
what I did to deserve
such a purdy, young doe.

Like a good roll of duct tape
yo're there fer yore man,
to patch up life's troubles
and fix what you can.

Yo're as cute as a junebug
a-buzzin' overhead.
You ain't mean like those far ants
I found in my bed.

Cut from the best cloth
like a plaid flannel shirt,
you spark up my life
more than a fresh load of dirt.

When you hold me real tight
like a padded gunrack,
my life is complete;
Ain't nuttin' I lack.

Yore complexion, it's perfection,
like the best vinyl sidin'.
despite all the years,
yore age, it keeps hidin'.

Me 'n' you's like a Moon Pie
with a RC cold drank,
we go together
like a skunk goes with stank.

Some men, they buy chocolate
for Valentine's Day;
They git it at Wal-Mart,
it's romantic that way.

Some men git roses
on that special day
from the cooler at Kroger.
That's impressive," I say.

Some men buy fine diamonds
from a flea market booth.
"Diamonds are forever,"
they explain, suave and couth.

But for this man, honey,
these won't do.
Cause yor'e too special,
you sweet thang you.

I got you a gift,
without taste nor odor,
more useful than diamonds......
IT'S A NEW TROLL'N MOTOR

[Doby45]

Now THAT is a pretty good idea. I betcha I could cook a ramen in mine.

[ColColt]

Yep, it's worth a try. A little garlic and some pepper, through in a fried baloney "samidge" and a tall glass of ice tea.

[olafhardt]

Doing what with ducks? Clinton said when he tried it, the duck died. Obama said that was cause he used a white duck. :drinks: