860 on sale

[Johnch]

I was looking at wideners (http://www.wideners.com/itemdetail.cfm?item_id=6522) on sale for $30 for 8 lb .
Not sure if this is a good price .
But I thought I would pass it along .

Johnch

[jballs918]

so it looks like this stuff works well im a 7mm mag is this true if so i might pick up a can for plinking any thoughts

[9.3X62AL]

Dunno about the 7mm Mag, but a full case (about 56 grains) gives almost "spec" velocity in the 6.5 x 55 with 140 grain j-words.....about 2475 FPS in my Ruger 77.

30 bucks for 8# is a REAL GOOD price--thanks for the heads up. I'm about ready for some more of this "filler with attitude".

[swheeler]

Yes it will work in the 7 mag. The last I bought was 22.00 / 8#

[ron brooks]

Is the Wideners 860 the same as GIbrass's WC860?

How would this do in 30-06, either cast or j- word.

Thanks

[felix]

ASSUME yes. Expect a difference in lots, though. ... felix

[Bigscot]

How does 860 work in 30-30?

Bigscot

[felix]

860's, 872's are too slow for a 35 grain case, but OK in a 60 grain case. Use the H335/BLC2 which are WC844/WC846 in the 30-30, 32-30, 35-30, but pick something slightly faster for the 38-30, like H322 (single base) which is DATA 68 or 73 (double base) in speed. ... felix

[ron brooks]

Many thanks Felix. Any tips or suggestions?

Ron

[felix]

Ron, 44 grains plus PSB to very slight compression will give a good load in 270, 280, 300 (30-06 case). ... felix

[ron brooks]

Felix,

Thanks for the advice, is that for Cast, j-word, or both?

Sorry to be a pest,

Ron

[StarMetal]

Ron,

I shoot alot of 860 in just about everything I own. I think Felix's 44 gr load is pretty wimpy. I'll tell you why. Just the past two days I've been shooting my Type 99 Jap Arisaka in 7.7 caliber. As you know that round is just a hair smaller then a 30-06. In fact I'm using 30-06 cases sized down. Okay, I was shooting the Lyman 314299 and using 860 powder. I had a 50 gr load that came all the way up to just bout the neck. I topped that with a tuff of Dacron. Over the chrono I got 1756 fps, that's why I think Felix's 44 gr load has to be on the wimpy side, I don't think the PSB is going to make up for much velocity by increasing the pressure and powder burn. By the way I got hardly any unburned powder at all. Today I stuffed those cases with 55 grs of 5010 surplus, about all you can get in them, which is a very course stick powder. It shot pretty good, but I didn't chrono those ones. I've shot 860 in 30-06, 7.7 Jap, 8x57 Mauser, 7x57 Mauser, 260 Rem, 8x56R, 7.62x54R Russian and more. Save your money and don't buy the PSB, you don't need it. Dacron does just as good. I think 860 is a very good slow powder and it meters well from powder measures. By the way that Jap shot into 2 inches at 100 yards, which by me is just ok, I'd liked a tighter group.

Ok I wanted to edit in my loads were with all cast bullets.
Joe

[StarMetal]

Felix is dead on about the 35 gr cases like the 30-30, it's way too slow and that powder he mentioned that's better like the 844 is good advice.

Joe

[ron brooks]

StarMetal,

Thanks for the information. How much dacon do you put in the cases, just a littlle tuft?

Ron

[StarMetal]

Ron,

I buy my Dacron in sheet material. What you do is determine how much space you have to occupy, then cut squares or rectangles that will fill that space. Dacron is kind of springy and when you put it inside the case it springs back out against the walls. DO NOT PACK IT IN. Also DO NOT just pack a wad of it over the powder and leaving airspace between the that and the bullet. That's not a good thing to do with any kind of wad material. Kapok is another filler you can use.

PSB is good, BUT it's rather expensive to be just shooting up.

When I fired those Jap loads the past two days here, I extract the empty case gently and then tap it on my shooting bench to see how much unburned 860 was in it. I got a couple granules that I don't even think I could weigh on a powder scale even in the tenth's range, or barely so. I also looked down the barrel, pretty clean. This isn't so with 5010 surplus though. That stuff, although good in a narrow range, is truely what one forum member calls The Black Powder Of Smokeless Powders. It's dirty and it does burn completely, but I've had great success with it.

You'll hear all kind of stuff about the 860, you have to compressed it, you have to us PBS, you should only use it in overbore bottleneck cartridges, you should use a magnum primer with it. Well I have found that I don't. Now out of all those I think a magnum primer might benefit it. I don't just put Dacron in my 860 loads, they go in just about all my cast rifle bullet loads. I use fillers for three reasons, one to position small charges of powder back against the flash hole, two I believe it protects the base of the bullet and also seals the powder gases off some from cutting up the sides of the bullet, and three I think it helps the slower burning powders burn alittle more efficient, well add a fourth one, I believe it keeps the bore cleaner (from lead) somehow too.

I will tell you what to do, load some cartridges with the Dacron and load some with the PSB and make your own test and decide which you think is best for you. I'd borrow or beg some of the PSB from a forum member before I went out and bought it. I don't use it so I can't give you any. You can find it where shot shell componants are sold for one.

Joe

[Maven]

Ron, Felix, & Joe: I beg to differ with some of your advice re PSB & WC 860 and magmum primers & WC 860.* First of all, magnum primers DO make a difference in "06-sized cases with WC 860: They help it burn more efficiently (less, but not no unburned powder in your bbl. & chamber), but not perfectly. Secondly, in an attempt to further enhance the efrficiency of 860, I tried using PSB in the '06, 8x 57mm Mau., and the 7.62 x 54R. Guess what? It made not one bit of difference, or rather the results didn't justify the extra reloading step. However, it most certainly did improve things in the 7.65 x 53 Arg. Mau. when used with Lyman #314299. In that instance, 44gr. 860 + 314299 + mag. primers were accurate enough, but left unburned powder behind and the case necks were sooty. By dropping the charge to 43gr. and adding 1.0cc PSB (via a Lee dipper), I got pristine case necks and no unburned powder to speak of. Accuracy was unchanged. Lastly, I don't think I'd call 44gr. a "wimpy" load, just a very conservative starting load. 46gr. works very well in the '06-related cases with lighter bullets, e.g. #311291 in the '06 and 7.62 x 54R (if -291 casts large enough). With heavier CB's (#314299, #311644, LBT 195gr. in the 8 x 57mm, etc.) in those cartridges, I prefer 48gr. and sometimes even 50gr. in the 8mm Mau.


*I've used at least 32lb. of WC 860 over the years and like it. (The price is right!). It also flows through my powder measures with ease.

[drinks]

Felix;
I have good results with WC 844 in .45-70, using 55 to 64 gr.
Only problem, 60 to 64 gr , which does not need Dacron filler, is faster[more recoil energy than I want to endure].
Would a case of WC 860 , 60-65gr, give a good burn and 405gr bullet velocities of less than 1900fps, which is about my limit with a Handirifle.
64 gr of WC 844 gets 2100fps in my rifle.

[StarMetal]

Wow drinks, 1900 limit...ouch!!! I have an Brownchester 1886 carbine and 1850 beats me to death, since loaded it down.

Why don't you just load up a couple of shells with the 860 and see how it does. I bet it won't get anyways near 1900 tho.

Joe

[felix]

Drinks, I think Maven has the answer on this one! Not small enough bore to make 860 behave right, so might have to add a jumpstarter, say 3 grains 4198/3031, or half grain of BE/Clays/RD, etc. Make sure you have some compression, though. Maven is your man. ... felix

[David R]

46 grains of WC 860 with a standard winchester primer behind a 190 grain (nekkid) 311644 gets me 1" at 100 yards at 1775 fps out of my Wally world Stevens 308. I tried 44, 45...up to 50 that was so compressed I had to crank the seater plug down, but 46 grains gave me the best groups. This fills the case to the base of the boolit. Yeah, its dirty, but its the best load I have found for this gun.

I have loaded 60 grains in my '06 behind a 311291. AV 2200 fps, accuracy wasn't as good as 13 grains of red dot. A little too much kick just to make holes in paper. I have not tried filler and a smaller charge because I am using the 860 in the 308.

Some how I have been through 8 lbs in the last year.

David

[StarMetal]

David,

That's pretty good out of a 308. I was going to ask how the devil you got 50 grs in that case, but you said.

Joe

[9.3X62AL]

I've had similar experience in the 30-06 with #311291 and a full case of WC-860, 60.0 grains--2150 to 2200 FPS over Buckshot's screens, fairly clean burning with WLR primers. Not the rifle's most accurate load, but not a dog either. This was in the former Win 70, I have another example now that I haven't tried this recipe in.

The 45-70 using the Lee 405 grain plain base does some very accurate work using 3.0 grains or 4198 underneath 48.0 x 860, but still leaves some trash in the bore and velocity in my #1 (22" barrel) isn't real great--barely 1000 FPS. 6.0 grains of 4198 under 46.0 x 860 is a whole 'nuther ballgame, though--1300 FPS and no loss of accuracy--1873 era ballistics, in other words.

If you had a LOT of the boolit outside the case--and the boolit was heavy--you might be able to get 60 grains of WC-860 into a 45-70 case, and get the powder to burn with some efficiency. Some trial loads I just finished last week were able to get 6.0 x 4198 and 52.0 x 860 underneath RCBS 325's, and those are a little compressed. To get a trash-free bore in my #1, it took almost 15% duplexing to get there with the 405's.

Just my experiences using the "filler with attitude", WC-860.

[drinks]

Might as well skip the WC 860, I can get 64gr of WC 844, that comes to the base of the RCBS 320gr when crimped in the crimp groove, in the case and get 2100fps +, which is more than my old shoulder can take, 1900fps with the 320gr is about my comfort limit.

[9.3X62AL]

Yow, wouldn't THAT be fun?

[JohnH]

FWIW, I fired my Savage 340 30-30 this morning using 35 grains of 860 under the Lee 312-185. Three 5 shot groups averaged 2 1/2" @ 75 yards. I figure the velocity was circa 1500 fps. I then made up a duplex load using 2 grains of 4198 and 33 grains of 860, velocity was definately increased as the load struck about 3" lower on the target than the non duplex load. Unburnt powder left in the barrel was noticably less with the duplex load as well, but the straight 35 grain charge didn't leave objectionable amounts of unburned powder.

For those who may be looking for a reduced velocity load that uses a full case of powder, this is it. Some do object to using pistol powders, being concerned about double charges. Not an unreasonable concern. After today, I'm sure a few pounds of my 860 will be burned in the 30-30.