Original .38 Smith & Wesson Special B.P. Ballistics

[w30wcf]

Fellow darksiders,
I've recently acquired an interest in the original .38 Smith & Wesson Special b.p. load.

Historically speaking, early 1900's info that I have show that the factory specifications were: 21 1/2 grs. of b.p. / 158 gr. bullet.

Published velocity was 960 f.p.s. in a 6" barrel.

I'd say that's moving right along. I'm going to try that combination in my lever gun to see how it does.

Anyone currently loading b.p. in a .38 / .357 close to that charge weight? Powder type? Bullet? Velocity? Accuracy?

Thank you,
w30wcf

[StarMetal]

I find that hard to believe. I know those early bp 38 Special cases had to be balloon head, so they held more powder. A 38 case today filled to the top with 3F bp 23 to 25 grains by volume/weight. I'm only showing 755 fps about the average velocity for the old bp loadings. I wonder if you could even get 21 grs of bp in a balloon head case and still seat a 158 gr bullet? Where did you dig that up?

Joe

[9.3X62AL]

I haven't given this sort of recreation much thought, mostly because the idea of running 3F through my Colt OMT would cause me the sorts of dreams that produce the "bolt upright in bed at 2 A.M." sort of reaction.

Not having any experience, about all I have is book-reading info--and Joe covered that nicely. His 755 FPS data matches my own reading. 22 grains of Goex 3F in a couple different 36 caliber C&B revolvers produces about 850-875 FPS with a 70 grain RB, and life is too short to bother with conicals in those critters. Ya need three hands to load the things anyway, so only blessed with a right and a left--I'm physically challenged on a good day with a following wind as it is.

Goex isn't exactly the best BP on earth--it's best attribute is general availability. If you can locate some Swiss or maybe KIK 3F, that might provide a few more FPS. In a rifle barrel, you can likely get to your 950 FPS goal, but like Joe I think you might fall a little short in a handgun barrel.

[w30wcf]

Well...... the velocity was listed in a mid 1920's REM-UMC ballistics sheet. The powder charge and bullet weight is shown on a box of UMC .38 Smith & Wesson black powder cartridges I have that contain fired balloon head casings.

No problem at all with the cases holding 21 1/2 grs. of Goex b.p. with plenty of room for the bullet with some compression. Interestingly, a current .38 Special Winchester case holds only 1 grain less of b.p. with the same seating depth of the bullet.

A check on the Goex site shows the following with 160 gr. bullets:
.38 Special 6" barrel - 23 grs - 777 f.p.s.
.38 Special 18" barrel - 23 grs. - 1010 f.p.s.

.357 Mag. 6" barrel - 25 grs. - 897 f.p.s.
.357 Mag. 18" barrel - 25 grs. - 1098 f.p.s.

It is known that the highly refined black powders of the late 1800's, early 1900's had a higher ballistic strength than today's Goex. In fact, when I tested some original UMC .45 Colt cartridges a few years ago, they turned up almost 1,250 f.p.s. in a 24" barrel. 40 grs. of Goex was 100 f.p.s. slower.

Anyway, it will be interesting. I'll let you know how the testing goes.

Deputy Al, I do have some SWISS and will be testing with that powder since it would be closer to the early b.p.'s in performance.

w30wcf

[9.3X62AL]

The most interesting facet of W30WCF's text is the black powder data for the 357 Magnum......the caliber only gains half-again more velocity with modern powders, while the 38 Special gains only about 75-100 FPS over that provided by The Holy Black.

Maybe this white/smokeless stuff IS just a passing fad.

[montana_charlie]

Maybe this white/smokeless stuff IS just a passing fad.
You may be right, but...
It will probably hang on as long as there are some who like to spit out Nosler Partition bullets, at those 'flat shooting' velocities, without wiping between shots...or getting a crick in the neck from blow tubing a bolt gun.
CM

[w30wcf]

I couldn't stand the suspense, so I loaded the 21.5 gr. charges of both Swiss 2F and 3F and headed to the range today.

Here are the results:
Bullet: 358250 (original .38 Special B.P. bullet) seated to compress the powder .06
Lube: SPG
Alloy: w.w + 2% tin
Primer: Rem. 1 1/2
Case: R-P

21.5 grs. Swiss 2F - 1,127 f.p.s.
21.5 grs. Swiss 3F - 1,212 f.p.s.

Both loads shot fairly well @ 50 yards giving groups in the 1 1/2" range.

Based on the results, there is a good possibility that .38 Special cartridges loading with "Sporting Rate" burn powders round the turn of the last century did eclipse the 900 f.p.s. barrier in 6" revolver barrels.

Presently, I don't have a revolver in .38 / .357 chambering. to find out, but hopefully, befor the snow flys, I'll be able to run some tests in a friends revolver.
Stay tuned............

w30wcf

[StarMetal]

What did you shoot those 38 BP loads out of? I must have missed it if you stated it.

Joe

[w30wcf]

Joe,

Oops.... I neglected to mention the rifle I used.....must be older age, I guess.

Rifle: .357 Marlin 1894 Cowboy - 24" barrel

Another interesting bit of info on b.p. pistol cartridges in rifles.....
A few years ago, I tested some early black powder UMC headstamped .45 Colt cartridges in my .45 Colt Marlin Cowboy rifle - also with a 24" barrel. THey clocked 1,241 f.p.s.

Early ballistic charts show the .45 Colt b.p. cartridge giving 910 f.p.s. from a revolver. If the same differnce would apply in the case of the .38, then the velocity from a pistol with the proper black powder (SWISS 3F) should be at least in the high 800 f.p.s. bracket.

Time will tell........

w30wcf

[StarMetal]

Thanks,

Boy you know, that's flat moving even if it's a rifle. Very impressive, at least to me.

Joe

[w30wcf]

StarMetal,

Thank you for the "thanks". We learn something new from time to time.

I've had an interest in original b.p. pistol cartridges and how they would have performed in rifles....if there were rifles available for them back in "the day". That originally lead to my purchasing some original UMC .45 Colt cartridges for testing in my Marlin Cowboy rifle.

Since I had acquired a .357 Mag. Marlin Cowboy rifle just recently, I did some research on the .38 Special b.p. cartridge and was somewhat surprised at the reported velocity. Now I need to find some original UMC headstamped .38 Special b.p. cartridges (pre 1911) for testing.


Regarding the b.p.'s used in the early b.p. loadings, here's some historic info from "Dutch Bill" aka Bill Knight who is an authority on black powder history...


w30wcf,
In addition to having a faster burn rate, the true sporting powders produced a greater amount of what was then called "expansive force" due to the use of a greater amount of potassium nitrate in the powder's formulation.
This greater degree of expansive force made the sporting powders more effecient - more powerfull in short barrels.

From the days of the first cap and ball revolvers into the early years of the 1900's the pistols were usually loaded with a sporting grade powder. Usually in a grain size best described as a mixture of our 2F and 3F.

By the opening years of the 1900's the commercial cartridge companys went on a cost cutting kick with bp pistol cartridges. At the time they paid around 21 to 22 cents per pound for sporting powder in bulk. A rifle type powder sold for around 18 cents per pound. To cut costs they switched from sporting grade to rifle burn rate and went to a grain size best described as a mixture of 3F and 4F. Keep in mind that this was the time when 4F was a specific grain size range rather than simply screening process tailings as is often seen now.


Interesting b.p. history.

w30wcf

[StarMetal]

w30wcf,

Yes interesting. I was a real big cap and ball shooter in my younger beginning. I came to find out those things really aren't "toy" as many smokeless shooters tend to believe. There was this old abandoned farm, due to interstate 70 cutting through it. It had a very old 3 story brick house still on the site. the first floor joists were actually logs with the top floor side flattened, the walls had 4x4 oak studs, and then the good old lathe with base plaster and final plaster. The outer walls were double rows of solid red bricks. The house in other words was very solidly built. I use to take my 158 Remington with round lead balls up to that house and set a brick on the window sill here and there and go back to the railroad track and shoot at them as though it was Civil War battle. Well upon investigating inside the house, what the balls had done, I was in awe. It was nothing for those balls to cut easily through the walls, more then one even. They did some heavy damage on those 4x4 oaks too. Yup they broke the bricks I have up too. In other words I gained alot of respect for bp cap n ball power.

I use to load the old 12 ga paper shotgun hulls with bp too. I didn't notice too much difference between them and the smokeless shells, except they made alot more smoke, which to me was fun.

Now I new the 45 Colt shot pretty potent for a bp cartridge. It was a formiable round for alot of years. They say the Colt Walker Dragoon was the most powerful handgun until the advent of the 357 Magnum.

Keep up the good work, it's interesting for sure.

Joe

[floodgate]

John:

"Dutch Bill", eh; where's he posting now? I first met him in 2000 on the old "Shooters" (as "Mad Monk") where he helped clear up some misconceptions of mine about BP, and I've got a whole notebook full of his fascinating writings.

Doug

[w30wcf]

Floodgate,

Bill has been somewhat active on the "Open Range" forum, mostly in the "Dark Side" category. My handle there is w44wcf.

www.theopenrange.net

As you know, Bill certainly has a wonderful knowledge about the history of black powder and is a terrific resource for it.

Sincerely,
John

[w30wcf]

StarMetal,

I haven't been bitten by the cap and ball bug yet......but one never knows what the future has in store. Interesting the amount of damage those b.p. propelled round balls did.

Thank you for sharing.

w30wcf

[KCSO]

I didn't have time to read everyones posts but that data is way WRONG! The 38 S and W pushed a 160 Gr bullet with 12 grains of powder at about 675 fps. I have an Ideal #1 loading set in the original box with the original loading data and have used this set to make ammo. From a S and W with a 3" bbl 650 fps is about right. The 38 Special when introduced used 21 grains of Powder to puch a 158 gr bullet at 800 fps. I've got the loader for this one too. With FFFg in a 38 special case you can push a 158 at 825 in a 4 3/4 bbl. I just finished loadng about 100 of these for a cowboy shoot. The same load from a 24" rifle will go a tad over 1100fps.

[w30wcf]

Ksco,
Thank you for your response including your chronographed info.

I should have indicated .38 Special rather than .38 Smith & Wesson Special (nomenclature from 1905 UMC Catalog) to make things less confusing. The 960 f.p.s. figure is early factory published data for the .38 Special b.p. cartridge with a 158 gr. bullet.

Nice to see that you are loading black in this cartridge for an upcoming cowboy shoot ....... like stepping back in time.......

Please see post #7 for my data using Swiss b.p. which would come close to replicating early b.p. performance. The data was taken in a 24" barrel.

Please see post #11 for an interesting history regard the b.p's used to give 960 f.p.s. in early .38 Special b.p. factory loadings.

I'm now in the process of contacting some cartridge collector friends to see if I can find some early .38 Special b.p. cartridges to test.


w30wcf

[StarMetal]

Hey w30wcf,

I wonder if one could take some modern 38 Special cases and put them in a lathe and lathen them out to old balloon head specs? I got a mini-lathe, maybe I'll experiment.

Buckshot

What type of boring bar tool would you make for that adventure?

Joe

[KCSO]

Baloon heade cases arn't woth messing with, especially with B/P. If a baloon head seperates it is usually right at the base. I have had two of these let go in my 66 and ALL the blast goes out the top. For the extra 1.5 grain capacity in the cases its better just to go to FFF instead of FF.

[w30wcf]

StarMetal,
I would not recommend doing that since, as Kcso indicated, there is little to be gained. In checking the capacity of a .38 Special UMC balloon head case, I found it held only 1.0 more grain of powder than a .38 Special Winchester case with the bullet seated to a depth of .37".

Regarding balloon head cases, I have about 100 .44-40's that I have been using over the years with black powder with nary a problem along with about 70 .45 Colt balloon heads.

If one is going to use balloon head cases with black powder, the only ones to use are ones that are unfired, still intact as the factory shipped them. Pull the bullets, discard the primers, anneal and use.

Cases that have been fired, may have had mercuric priming which will attack the brass, leading to case failure on firing.......not pleasant as Kcso indicated.

w30wcf

[StarMetal]

w30wcf,

I wasn't going to do that for myself, I was going to make them and send them to YOU!!!! [smilie=l:[smilie=w:[smilie=s:

Joe

[w30wcf]

Joe,

Thank you for the thought. I do have a handful or so of .38 Special balloon head cases which I may add into the mix from time to time.

w30wcf

[Old Ironsights]

w30wcf:

Thank you Thank you for this thread & testing.

Being the paranoid type that I am I like to know that I can have a reasonable chance of having a somewhat useful gun/cartridge combo if I have to make my own powder - and I've been wanting to do this exact testing for my .357 Rossi '92.

SO I'm guessing that I could still compress 25gr 3F under a 156gr .358.

I wonder how 4F would fare? (I have pounds left from my 3F hold-pass screening...)

[w30wcf]

Old Ironsights,

You are most welcome. A settled charge of 25 grs. of Goex FFFG would require
.25" of compression in a .357 Mag case with a 158 gr. bullet. That's a fair amount of compression.

By comparison, the powder compression in the original UMC .38 Special balloon head cases was about .15" with a 158 gr. bullet.

23.0 grains of Goex in a .357 Mag case = the same .15" compression (Swiss is .10" of compression).

I would suggest starting there and working up.

Don't know about 4F ........

Have fun!

w30wcf

[Old Ironsights]

Thanks.

My current loading arrangement is a Lee "whack-a-mole" Loader, and I've got a small pile of pure lead 158 gr HPs sans gas-check.

I want to workup both a min load (600-700fps) and max non-leading load in BP/777 for this boolit, so your advice is much appriciated.

[KCSO]

24 of Swiss FFFg will fit in W/W 357 cases with a 158 rnfp seated to the crimp groove. That will give you right around 1220 fps from a 20" bbl and will go over 1250 in a 24". For 730 fps use FFg in a 38 special case (16 grs if I remember right) and you will just duplicate the old 38 LC.

Once more I will warn that baloon head cases are not to be used. These were made more than 50 years ago and when they let go it is right at the base. You will either get an action full of soot or a face full when they let go. If 1250 from a BP 357 isn't enough go to smokless, but don't use the baloon heads. I threw away over 100 38-40's when 2 in a row let go right at the rim in my 73. Trust me this is not fun. No matter how clean they look if they were ever fired with mercuric primers they will be weak at the base.

[w30wcf]

Old Ironsights,

Regarding 777 FFG, with my lot, 16 grs. by weight and a bullet seating depth of
.37" = .10" compression which is the maximum amount that Hodgdon recommends using with 777.

I have tested 15 grains in the .357 with a 158 gr. cast bullet and the velocity was 1,134 f.p.s. in the 24" barrel using CCI500 primers.


KCSO,
Thank you for the data. I have tried 23.5 grs. Swiss 3F in the .357 and it clocked an average of 1,248 f.p.s. in my rifle's 24" barrel with a 158 gr. cast bullet. Our comparative data speaks well of the excellent qualities of Swiss b.p.

w30wcf

[Sixgun Symphony]

W30WCF,

You ought to check the local pawnshops for an inexpensive .38 revolver. I still see alot of the old Colt Official Police and S&W M-10 revolvers for well under $300.

[w30wcf]

Sixgun Symphony,

Thank you for the thought. I may do that at some distant time in the future. In the meantime, a friend has the S&W M10. I may try to talk him into testing some b.p. loads out of it.

His reaction might be the same as Al's..."the idea of running 3F through my Colt OMT would cause me the sorts of dreams that produce the "bolt upright in bed at 2 A.M." sort of reaction. :shock:

Time will tell.

w30wcf

[9.3X62AL]

VERY interesting thread.....glad I looked in again. Thanks for all the chrono'd data as well, it appears that the old published ballistics info wasn't far off the mark after all.

I generally detail-strip my C&B revolvers after a day of shooting to wash out all possible traces of powder fouling internally. That's not such a big job with a K-frame S&W, but not a thing I like to do with a V-spring Colt.

You know, some BP loads in the well-worn Model 686 x 4" might be kinda fun to do. That big old grease groove in the #358429 might hold enough SPG or some other BP dissolver to keep things running past 3 cylinder-fulls, too. 900-950 FPS is no slouch in the hunting fields on small game.....and considering the size of the deer hereabouts, those loads could fill a tag too. Some of our blacktails could hide in the trunk of my daughter's Cabrio with room to spare.

[w30wcf]

Deputy,
Yes, as it turns out, 158 gr. lead bullets propelled by Swiss 3F BP will easily crack the 900 f.p.s. barrier .........:mrgreen:

Met up with a friend yesterday who owns a .357 handgun with a 7 1/2 " barrel.
Below are the average recorded velocities of the Swiss FFG and Swiss FFFG .38 Special 21 1/2 gr. loads. The rifle velocities are also shown as a reference.

Bullet: 358250 (original .38 Special B.P. bullet) Lube: SPG
Diameter: .359" Alloy: w.w + 2% tin
Primer: Rem. 1 1/2
Case: R-P

21.5 grs. Swiss 2F - 880 f.p.s. (7 1/2" barrel) 1,127 f.p.s. (24" barrel)
21.5 grs. Swiss 3F - 967 f.p.s. (7 1/2" barrel) 1,212 f.p.s. (24" barrel)

Based on the results, it is possible that the early .38 Special b.p. cartridges did produce velocities of the cataloged 960 f.p.s. using the early sporting black powders.

Amen.

w30wcf

[Old Ironsights]

Now what I'm wondering is how well 11gr of BP/Sub will push out a .358/156 Pure Lead HP... (at least that's what it looks like volume-wise in my .38sp cases when seated deep.)

Think it will "catsneeze"? Must try it one of these days.

[Ricochet]

Until sometime in the late 1970s, factory velocities for revolver cartridges were measured in short solid barrels fired in universal receiver pressure guns. Then they added a small fixed vent hole ahead of the case mouth to simulate a barrel/cylinder gap, and the velocities went down quite a bit.

[w30wcf]

Old Ironsights,

Hodgdon shows a load of 15 grs. of 777 FFG in modern .38 Special cases. I tried it, and about .100" compression is required (bullet seating depth of .37") which meets Hodgdon's recommendations for compression. That load did 1,130 f.p.s. in my Marlin's 24" barrel which virtually duplicated the 21 1/2 gr. SWISS FFG loading.

Ricochet,
I am thinking that it was after the 1960's / 1970's that labs went to the universal receiver for handgun cartridges. I do know that Hodgdon still uses them today.

Interestingly, my friends 7 1/2" revolver duplicated the early 1900's .38 Special b.p. cataloged velocity using cartridges loaded with 21 1/2 grs. of Swiss powder.

w30wcf

[Ricochet]

I believe the universal receiver's been used for everything the factories loaded since they started using them. Rifle and pistol, both. They just started venting barrels for revolver cartridges in the '70s. Lots of folks didn't like it when the velocities went down.

[Old Ironsights]

Old Ironsights,

Hodgdon shows a load of 15 grs. of 777 FFG in modern .38 Special cases. I tried it, and about .100" compression is required (bullet seating depth of .37") which meets Hodgdon's recommendations for compression. That load did 1,130 f.p.s. in my Marlin's 24" barrel which virtually duplicated the 21 1/2 gr. SWISS FFG loading.
w30wcf

Go take a look at what I did with a 180 Keith and 5gr BP/Subs and 10(ish) gr Farina filler under Castbullets - Catsneeze: take 1

400-500 fps depending on the powder. Fun.

[Dale53]

Regarding cleaning the revolvers after shooting black powder - the people who compete with black powder revolvers (originals, replicas, and Ruger Old Army) at Friendship, IN (the National Muzzleloading Rifle Matches) after a normal clean (using their favorite black powder solvent) at the end of the day:

Remove the grips and immerse in K-1 Kerosene and agitate. Shake dry, wipe off excess and let "drip" overnight. Canned K-1 (do NOT use so called K-1 from a service station - may NOT be the same thing, TRUST ME!) is nearly oderless and will dissolve any remaining fouling inside and will also lubricate the mechanism a bit. I recommend the same treatment for the black powder cartridge revolvers (like my Ruger Bisley Vaquero .45 Colt and Cimaron .44 Special). It should work just as well with the .38 Special Double Actions. I have no intention of "wearing out" my revolver by continually taking it apart when this method will solve the problem and give proper protection. I have used black and Pyrodex, both, rather a lot in black powder cowboy matches without any problems.

Dale53

[Catshooter]

What a highly interesting thread!

Just to add about one cent's worth, I have a ADC derringer in .45 auto Rim. For fun I loaded three rounds with black of a completly unknown size, age or manif.

I tried for .1 compression and under the 255 gr Keith I was using that was 15.0 grains.

I tried to chrono 'em at the range but my chrono was acting up, but from recoil they were right up there with my smokeless load that runs 950 fps.

Fun.


Cat

[Old Ironsights]

Regarding cleaning the revolvers after shooting black powder - the people who compete with black powder revolvers (originals, replicas, and Ruger Old Army) at Friendship, IN (the National Muzzleloading Rifle Matches) after a normal clean (using their favorite black powder solvent) at the end of the day:

Remove the grips and immerse in K-1 Kerosene and agitate. Shake dry, wipe off excess and let "drip" overnight. Canned K-1 (do NOT use so called K-1 from a service station - may NOT be the same thing, TRUST ME!) is nearly oderless and will dissolve any remaining fouling inside and will also lubricate the mechanism a bit. I recommend the same treatment for the black powder cartridge revolvers (like my Ruger Bisley Vaquero .45 Colt and Cimaron .44 Special). It should work just as well with the .38 Special Double Actions. I have no intention of "wearing out" my revolver by continually taking it apart when this method will solve the problem and give proper protection. I have used black and Pyrodex, both, rather a lot in black powder cowboy matches without any problems.

Dale53

With real black powder, I prefer to use raw Denatured Alcohol in the same method.

How do you keep from / why doesn't the Kerosene (petroleum) cause carbon-sulfur tarring?

[wills]

It is the burning sulfur in the BP reacting with petroleum that causes the problem. By the time you start cleaning the sulfur should have stopped burning.

[Old Ironsights]

The Sulfur never stops burning where I live.... :twisted: [smilie=1:

[montana_charlie]

immerse in K-1 Kerosene and agitate
If they had any 'canned kerosene' in Tay Ninh province, I never saw it. But 'jerry canned diesel' did the job on M-60's.
CM