Theoretical or Reality ?

[lastborn]

Let's say you have 10 lbs of alloy that is giving you a water quenched bullet with 20 BHN. Could you just add 5 lbs of straight lead to your 10 lbs of alloy for a total of 15 lbs, and get a 10 BHN water quenched bullet?
Thanks

[405]

Long answer- no. BHN vs compunded alloy is much more complex. If you do end up with your desired BHN it will be purely by chance using that method.

Easiest way, I didn't say shortest time! Melt maybe 3/4 pot of pure lead. Then add small amount of your 20 BHN alloy. Stir. Take small sample. Let cool. Check BHN. Repeat by adding small amounts of your 20 BHN alloy, re-checking, until you reach desired BHN. Remember, for the samples, the best way is to air cool them before measuring BHN. Even air cooled alloys over time (days or months?) can change BHN slightly. While quenched, quick cooled, or heat tempered alloys can change BHN quite a bit over time.

[colonelhogan44]

Doubtful. Metallurgy and alloy properties aren't always (read rarely) linear.

[Rocky Raab]

The concept of water-quenching when a softer bullet is wanted strikes me as bassackwardness. Kinda like asking which all-you-can-eat buffet would be best for losing weight.

[GLL]

Kinda like asking which all-you-can-eat buffet would be best for losing weight.

Rocky:

Best quote of the day for my files ! :) :)

Jerry

[lastborn]

I have more soft lead than I do the harder alloy, therefore I was trying to get the most mileage out of the harder alloy and use up the soft lead.
Thanks

[405]

More pure lead than harder alloy? I'm in the same boat and also need to conserve the more valuable alloys or elements like tin and antimony. But to get to a desired outcome BHN 10 (which by the way I use a lot of BHN 10 for BP loads and low velocity smokeless loads) it is much easier and surer to start with a partial pot of the pure lead then add alloy to harden rather than to try to go instantly to a given, desired BHN. Once you have the numbers, given you are working with the same two alloy sources (like pure lead and the unknown 20 BHN alloy).... it's easy to duplicate in the future so you won't have to go thru the experimental testing process again. Just add so much of the 20 BHN to so much of the pure lead.

Melt the partial pot of pure lead then "creep" up on the desired BHN by adding small amounts of the harder alloy while testing. As has been posted, the relationship is NOT linear when mixing two or more alloys of different BHNs.

EXAMPLE: I found if I started with some amount of pure lead and added a small amount of harder alloy, say 1/2 pound. The BHN would go higher by a small amount, say to BHN 6. I add another 1/2 pound- the BHN goes to 7. I add another 1/2 pound- the BHN goes to 8. I add another 1/2 pound- the BHN jumps to say 14 !!! That told me a long time ago the relationship is not linear. As a matter of fact it can even be more complex than simple curvi-linear. I think with some elements in alloys it crosses phase thresholds thus the sudden jumps.

If you don't care what BHN you end up with then forget the above post (s) and just mix some soft with hard and you'll end up somewhere in between. :)

[lastborn]

Thanks 405.
Rocky, I'm looking for that weight watchers buffet.[smilie=l:

[Bret4207]

You can have 3 batches of alloy all giving the same Bhn reading that are each different from the other by wide margins. And you can get 3 different Bhn reading from the same alloy depending on how you treat it.

In short, it's just not that simple. But it was a good question.

[44man]

The concept of water-quenching when a softer bullet is wanted strikes me as bassackwardness. Kinda like asking which all-you-can-eat buffet would be best for losing weight.
Not so. Water dropping, say a 50-50 alloy, will harden the boolit to allow better accuracy but it does not harm the ductile properties of the alloy enough to notice. It will still expand and if shot wrong it can wipe out all your meat.
I can not shoot air cooled 50-50 and even oven hardened to 20 bhn needs a gas check but still causes a few fliers. Yet it destroys many pounds of meat.
Listen to Bret about BHN, it is junk science and no indication of final results.
Even Rockwell on steels will give results all over the place as the steel alloys change. A knife blade can be brittle and snap, the next can hold an edge and be tough, the next can get dull with a few cuts, yet all can be the same Rockwell hardness.
BHN is only an indication and does not tell you what is in the metal. If you can use scrap lead and reach the exact BHN from batch to batch, I can only say that you can have 1000 different alloys, maybe more. Some will shoot into one hole and others will spray the backstop.

[Rocky Raab]

Take this the right way, but I think that anybody who is pushing bullets hard enough to need THAT hard a bullet, plus a gas check, would be better off shooting jacketed. To create another humorous analogy, that's like putting two-ply bias tires and snow chains on an Indy car.

[felix]

Of course, Rocky, but that would eliminate the boolit hobby. A paper jacket is another type of condom. As well, a metal check with length any more necessary than to lock one onto the boolit shaft amounts to a condom. ... felix

[44man]

Take this the right way, but I think that anybody who is pushing bullets hard enough to need THAT hard a bullet, plus a gas check, would be better off shooting jacketed. To create another humorous analogy, that's like putting two-ply bias tires and snow chains on an Indy car.
Hard is relative. 20 BHN is not really hard with the right alloy. 50-50 is SOFT no matter what your hardness tester reads.
My normal shooting is done with just water dropped WW metal at about 22 bhn.
But you confuse pushing boolits hard with something else. Slow powder does not push boolits hard, fast powder does. To drop to the initial thump of 231, bulls eye and Unique requires even harder then 22. Accuracy did not appear until I reached 28 to 30 BHN.
I have proven over and over that soft lead does not like to be slammed with pressure right away. If you think low pressure loads are had with fast powder you would be right for overall pressure, but where is the pressure applied first?
Although a hefty load of 296 reaches a higher pressure IN THE END, it does less damage to a boolit in the first few inches. Starting a boolit slow and increasing push is always better then having the pressure high point while the boolit is still in the brass. My pressure of 30,000 psi when the boolit is way down the bore is better then your 15,000 psi when the boolit has not moved yet.
Many get confused reading manuals and seeing pressure readings, think it is easy on a boolit. Do the testing, stop reading.
After every single five shots from your revolver, you should have learned something. You should be able to read a group right then and figure what needs to be corrected. Recover fired boolits and study them. Same with deer, one is enough to see what happened with your boolit but if you lose them, you don't know yet. You guess and blame all kinds of things but once you have one to cut open, you should learn and never repeat what you used.
I get cast to shoot better then jacketed 90% of the time because never is a shot wasted without learning something. I never just make noise.

[Rocky Raab]

Forgive me for saying this and then leaving the thread, but it's because I'm leaving town for a while, not because I'm ducking the issue.

Your theories may be correct, but if they are, they are somewhat at odds with what experts have learned over the past 300 years of lead bullet shooting. I've never had accuracy or leading problems using bullets as soft as BHN 10, regardless of powder used. I do take pains to size bullets correctly, lube them right and don't load them to maximum. I also don't own any magnums except for a couple 357s, and they hardly count as such any more.

I don't doubt your methods work for you, but I would not advise a newcomer to follow them.

See all of you later.

[sagacious]

...
After every single five shots from your revolver, you should have learned something. You should be able to read a group right then and figure what needs to be corrected. Recover fired boolits and study them. Same with deer, one is enough to see what happened with your boolit but if you lose them, you don't know yet. You guess and blame all kinds of things but once you have one to cut open, you should learn and never repeat what you used.
I get cast to shoot better then jacketed 90% of the time because never is a shot wasted without learning something. I never just make noise.
This is critical-- vitally critical to the advancement of the handloader and marksman.

If your time at the range is spent simply making noise, you're cheating yourself. Newbies can follow this practice, one does not need to be an expert. Mindset is what makes the difference-- the handloader/shooter should progress with every range session. This takes a modest amount of structure and attention, but unless your mindset is one of constant learning and progression, you're missing out on most of what's happening and why. Good luck.

[StarMetal]

45 2.1 and myself have shot our 50/50 alloy to jacketed speeds without the need of a harder alloy. I've shot that 50/50 to jacketed velocities when it was just air cooled. Things have to be right and done right to it. There are just too many untruths and myths about what can be done with what alloys. I once use to shoot lino type...now I have bunch and rarely touch it.

50/50 WW's/lead makes a very very good alloy that just about does it all.

[303Guy]

Although a hefty load of 296 reaches a higher pressure IN THE END, it does less damage to a boolit in the first few inches. Starting a boolit slow and increasing push is always better then having the pressure high point while the boolit is still in the brass. My pressure of 30,000 psi when the boolit is way down the bore is better then your 15,000 psi when the boolit has not moved yet. I'm with 44man. I came to the same conclutions from 'test tube' testing. Even primer indications of pressure are skewed with faster powders and I'm not refering to flattened primers.

[Bret4207]

I have to partially agree with 44 man. The pressure curve makes a huge difference in dynamic boolit fit which of course affects grouping. It's never as simple as going to a harder boolit!

[44man]

The twist rate means a lot too. I NEED softer boolits for deer with my 45-70 BFR. It has a 1 in 14" twist and a boolit can skid trying to take it. 50-50 PB boolits scatter but if I oven harden them, use a gas check, they group almost one hole at 50. But there is always at least one flier. By going a little harder with 25% pure, fliers go away yet they still expand on deer. I have a very hard balance to reach so the boolits will still kill deer. Harder boolits are much more accurate but do not kill.
Joe is correct of course BUT NOT FOR MY GUNS, even my .475 has a 1 in 15" twist. The difference is that the .475 will kill with a 25 BHN boolit and the 45-70 will not.
Would I prefer a slower twist? NO, never, because of the accuracy I get.
My harder .475 boolits still shoot great from a Freedom or converted SRH but needs 1/2 gr more powder. The Ruger is 1 in 18-1/4" and the Freedom is 1 in 18". A tad more velocity takes care of accuracy.
Remember the revolver boolit gets a running start before it is forced to spin. So saying air cooled 50-50 shoots good from some other gun does nobody any good. You must also state what gun.
Too much confusion is generated when all kinds of guns are included in a discussion. The same thing happens when talking about hunting with a revolver, someone is sure to start adding rifles and single shots into the post. :veryconfu