First .45 ACP, failure and potential success?

[AKsoldier]

Well....Ok, so here goes: I have cast hundereds of boolits for my .45 ACP using a Lee 228 gr. mould. I learned the mould, in terms of temp, cool time, etc. until I felt I was producing a useable boolit.

I was doing all of this while waiting for delivery of my .45 ACP - a commemorative pistol from Para Ordnance for my brigade for our deployment to Afghanistan.

Long story short - the pistol was late, and my cast boolits weren't. I used the Lee 228 gr. two-hole mold and cast about 200 "acceptable" (to my un-educated eye) boolits.

I used LLA lube, (tumbled) then sized the boolits in a Lee sizing die. I then loaded them in miscellaneous cases, using two different powders with just above starting loads.

The results were disgusting! The pistol jammed with four different factory loads, then locked up tight with my hand-loads using my cast boolits. My gunsmith achieved the temporary fix, and I began brainstorming a solution.

Here's my thoughts: The LLA left a VERY sticky residue on the boolits. Maybe that is causing the hang-up in the chamber? So - how do I eliminate that? WD - 40!

I just spent about two hours painstakingly rubbing each and every one of my hand-loaded .45 ACP boolits with WD-40. They are all now very slick, and I suspect they will feed much better.

I also thoroughly cleaned the pistol, and burned through 60 rounds of factory 230 gr. hard-ball. It seems my gun needs a break-in period. It is functioning much better now. Only two jams in over 60 factory rounds this time.

My question: Will the WD-40 help? Or should I throw away the ammo I loaded and start again? I am no novice to handloading - over 15 years experience, and this is my first real failure.

Most of the problem lies in my inexperience with cast boolits. I need more education!

[cricco]

I would try adding some Johnson's Paste Wax to your LLA. You could also try a little Mica dust.

[missionary5155]

Good morning
New weapons can be a pain ! Break in is VERY Important.. ESpecially IF you are depending on that weapon to keep your hide intact.
Boolits... Are they the correct diameter ? Remove the barrrel and insert a loaded round. Will a loaded cartrige chamber without any pushing ? If not the boolit might be too FAT. Also check a resized NOT LOaded brass and see if that will chamber. Your chamber may be on the TIGHT end of the specs.
Take a as lubed boolit and tap it (with a wood dowel) into the chamber-throat about the length of the boolit then from the muzzle end tap that boolit back out. That diameter is your minimum as cast size you need for that .45. Now me I would be looking to cast .001 to .002 over that diameter IF that loaded round will chamber without any hard pushing to chamber it.
Also is your loaded round too long.. any reloading manual will tell you the MAX Overall Length. If you are over that your boolit may be bumping up against the rifling way to much.
Those are some of the factors I have come up against in my reloading for the 1911.
If you are working within those parameters your cast boolits should chamber without any exterior lube...
And round nose boolits will cycle much easier. I polish the ramp on all my .45 1911 as that helps other nose designs cycle much easier.

[Bret4207]

I think you'll need to get the gun broken in and determine what it will shoot group wise before you start tearing at your hair. Bottom feeders can be finicky and need proper lube and a little time for the parts to mate properly. Then you can go to cast. I would thoroughly clean the gun and get the barrel spotlessly clean of all copper and powder fouling. I'd look through the posts here on boolit fit, choose a proven mid range load and expect to put the first 10-15 shots down range to condition the barrel. That's when you'll see how the gun handles that boolit with that load in that alloy. Then come back and we can help you fine tune things. Remember- fit always comes first with cast.

On the Mule Snot (LLA)- simply dust the loaded boolits or loaded rounds with a light powder and the sticky/tackyness will disappear. I've used Motor Mica, graphite, even cornstarch. I doubt very much the Mule Snot was causing problems as you describe and wiping the boolits with WD40 gives the chance for powder contamination (slight) and removes what may be needed lube. Give you're gun a chance to break in and use a mid range load.

[DLCTEX]

If you find that the loaded rounds are oversize for your chamber you may want to consider a Lee factory crimp die. The FCD sizes the loaded round to max, specs. Some here curse the FCD, but the complaint is due to it sizing down large boolits, which can be a plus in this case. Just run the rounds through the die backed off so as to not crimp, if they are already crimped, and it will remove any bulges or oversizes. You don't state what brass you used, but if the brass was fired in a gun with an unsupported chamber (Glock and a few others) you may have a bulged case that most sizing dies will not remove completely. Lee has a bulge buster kit for cheap that will remove the bulge even on loaded rounds.

[docone31]

New pistols need breaking in. Not so revolvers, but slides do.
I do not like LLA castings. I prefer to size and pan lube.
You might also try different OALs on your casting.
Since you are making your castings, you are also going to have to find what the Para likes.
It is worth it though.
Try going a little deeper into the case with the casting.

[bigboredad]

you can use baby powder to get rid of the sticky crud left on the boolit. I take the gun apart and use the barrel to determine the oal as I reload just drop a round in and adjust the the seating depth. I also have a lee factory crimp die for my .45acp and have not had the problems that the others have had and it does take all the bulges out and make chambering much easier ymmv. good luck.
p.s.
sounds like a cool pistol please post a pic so the rest of us can enjoy and thank you very much for your service to protect us and our country

[mdi]

I have heard of feeding probs with the Lee round nose w/1R ogive. Seems this "radius" bullet hangs up more than the 2R design. Also I would think extra slick cases won't grab the chamber walls when fired, allowing for "setback", or the case slamming into the bolt face(?).

[StarMetal]

Get a luber/sizer and quit that poor mule snot system. Never used it in my life and I'll never use it. Just my opinion boys. :kidding:

[fryboy]

umm after reading all the replies ( and the questions ) i have to agree that ur piece needs breaking in ,once that is accomplished u'll be much better in tune with it as well as knowing what to expect from it accuracy wise
as for the LLA on the boolit nose ,mineral spirits on a rag , if u dont try using recluse's version i would at least advise cutting lee's stuff down also with mineral spirits , at least 25% and applying two thin coats versus 1 heavier coat , i have the same mold , plus the 230 tc one and a coupla others ,the 228 has worked flawlessly in every 45 i have tried it in ( not so the truncated cone one ) i do question the crimp tho ,this is often where folks get into trouble or rather perplexing thoughts ,too much resizes the boolit not enough can cause jams ,often times starting loads may not function the recoil operated feeding ,there's about a billion threads on 45's,prolly wouldnt hurt to scan a few of'em ,g'luck !

edit for add.... umm star ? if u never used it and never will how can u justifiably bash it ? one would have to of used it to form an honest opinion as opposed to a biased i never tried it but dont like it ?

[StarMetal]

umm after reading all the replies ( and the questions ) i have to agree that ur piece needs breaking in ,once that is accomplished u'll be much better in tune with it as well as knowing what to expect from it accuracy wise
as for the LLA on the boolit nose ,mineral spirits on a rag , if u dont try using recluse's version i would at least advise cutting lee's stuff down also with mineral spirits , at least 25% and applying two thin coats versus 1 heavier coat , i have the same mold , plus the 230 tc one and a coupla others ,the 228 has worked flawlessly in every 45 i have tried it in ( not so the truncated cone one ) i do question the crimp tho ,this is often where folks get into trouble or rather perplexing thoughts ,too much resizes the boolit not enough can cause jams ,often times starting loads may not function the recoil operated feeding ,there's about a billion threads on 45's,prolly wouldnt hurt to scan a few of'em ,g'luck !

edit for add.... umm star ? if u never used it and never will how can u justifiably bash it ? one would have to of used it to form an honest opinion as opposed to a biased i never tried it but dont like it ?

Oh I have it and done experiments with it. Lee caters to those that can't afford the more expensive line of reloading tools. It's a cheapo lube system and it does under certain restrictions work.

The bullets the poster is using don't have to have the noses lubed, that's one of the fall backs of LLA. No sense in putting that sticky stuff all over the bullet.

[243winxb]

The ogive on Lees bullet may be the problem. Or the bullet needs to be seated deeper. Measure loaded rounds on the bullet in front of the case mouth. It should read .450" to chamber freely. No wd-40 ty. Tumble lube -size- tumble lube before loading. If a bullet sized to .452" does not feed, you may have to size to .451" . Dont forget to put a nice taper crimp on the loaded rounds. http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/Ogive_1.jpg

[fryboy]

i totally agree with the last part of ur comment but dip lubing is ...a labor of love ( it has to be for those that do it lolz ) i'm old skool enough that i like lube in the grooves , tho i did play with moly'n the whole boolit a few times , i never did like the mess of the stuff tho for what i tried it on it did work and rather well ( including a well defined mess lolz ) i tried the JPW straight as well didnt care for the mess with either singularly ,mixed as in recluse's recipe was much better !! alox is a decent lube (in most forms ) but i never cared for it as IMHO no matter what form it's messy at best ,the aroma ...well it's a learned like ( or dislike lolz )

[StarMetal]

Fry,

It's ok for certain applications. One would be the TL bullets it was designed for. I use it on the noses of certain bore riding bullets because the single lube groove on the one I have doesn't carry enough lube for the entire bore length.

I understand too that some are on limited funds.

If a cast load is a good one and it presents no functioning problems, I don't see what it can't be used for breaking in a gun. I've done it many times. Now some feel that jacketed will break the bore in better.

A round nose in a 45 acp should be just about perfect in cycling.

[MtGun44]

Watch out for WD-40, it kills primers.

Please use the search function and read a few of my old posts on .45 ACP seating depth
and crimp setup. Missionary has you started down the right road. This is not rocket science
and if you follow what I posted, you WILL get good functioning. Just no time right now
to type it all again.

Alox is a marginal lube system, but the .45 ACP is one of the calibers that it may work
fairly well with.

Try seating length to match the LOA and nose contour (by eyeball) of a milspec .45 ACP ball
round.

PLEASE avoid the Lee FCD.

Bill

[AKsoldier]

WOW, thanks for the help folks! I didn't even have time to read it all, but here's an update and a few more details: I tried chambering another of my cast rounds after the WD-40 and it's stuck again. I'm thinking there's something else going on here.

I understand break-in, I've been told 1911's in particular like to have a fair amount of use before they start functioning well. I plan to "bite the bullet" (pun intended) and invest in about 500 230 gr. hardball bullets to load up and get it loosened up and working. My cast boolits need another look. Someone mentioned bullet profile, and ogive - I completely agree, and I understand why that is important for an auto. But the Lee mould I'm using looks to the naked eye to be an almost exact duplicate of most 230 gr. hardball. When I was loading them, I used a factory loaded round with 230 hardball, and measured OAL, then matched that with my cast boolits.

I think I'll get it broke in for now, and re-visit the cast boolit idea again later. In the mean time, this gives me an excuse to acquire another wheel-gun that can shoot .45 auto. I've always liked the Ruger Bisley stainless convertible....:p Or maybe I should get the kit that will allow me to run them through my S&W 460...

Edit: I forgot to mention, all of my boolits were ran through a Lee sizing die. (.452) after lubing. I'm wondering now if I need a .451. (243 winxb)

[fryboy]

i'm suspecting crimp or boolit seating depth...u kno the old trick of using the barrel for a gauge that should narrow it down ,the 228 works great for me it's the 230 tc that doesnt like one feed ramp lolz

[35remington]

First, I'm pretty intimately familiar with the 228-1R. And no, it ain't in any way a duplicate of factory ball. Look a little more closely. It has more bearing length and a shorter nose length than regular ball. 1R means 1 radius ogive. Ball or 230 FMJ's are two radius ogive.

Your eyes aren't attuned to small differences in bullet appearance yet, and how that affects proper overall length and functioning. We'll get you up to speed.

Don't set its overall length by a milspec round. The short nose of the 228-1R means that if loaded to the same length as factory ball, too much bearing surface will be out of the case, and the gun won't lock up because the bullet will hit the leade (rifling origin) and prevent full chambering.

"The pistol jammed with four different factory loads, then locked up tight with my hand-loads using my cast boolits."

Ding Ding Ding!!! Just what you found to be true!

"I tried chambering another of my cast rounds after the WD-40 and it's stuck again. I'm thinking there's something else going on here."

Once again, confirmation of what I've just stated.

Please post your overall length.

Correct, for my guns to allow the cartridge to chamber properly, is in the range of 1.210" to 1.220."

Second, what magazines are you using? Please don't tell me they're Shooting Stars. Or Triple K's, or some other gawd awful magazine. Shooting Stars are predisposed toward problems because of an excessively weak magazine spring.

Triple K's? Well, one look at those and you know the "genius" who designed them didn't know a damn thing about a 1911.

Telling us the exact magazine and type, and the shape of the feed lips. A picture would be helpful.

Third and finally; describe the exact cartridge position when it jams; whether the case rim was fully under the extractor, case nearly in the chamber, etc. Just saying "it jammed" doesn't convey any information. Describing the exact cartridge position when it jams will give big clues to what's causing it.

Without those "big clues" we will find it harder to diagnose, and a "good break in" might not be the answer to the problem.

A gun that suffers multiple jams right off the bat doesn't need a "good break in"......what's causing it is so out of sync that shooting it more ain't gonna help it start functioning better.

You problems are a lot different than what a simple "wearing in" would solve. A "break in jam" is a few minor hiccups, not a situation where it malfunctions as often as it feeds.

[StarMetal]

AK,

Here's a tip for you. Take the barrel out of your pistol and use it for a case gauge to check your cartridge and bullet seating. Try the cartridge in it and it should drop in easy and the head of the case should be flush with the barrel hood extension. Simple as that. They don't fit there they won't fit cycling, they fit there you can bet they'll fit cycling.

You don't need to buy 500 hard ball loads. When you get your cast cartridges right, they will break it in. If you want you can load them just a tad hotter to ensure complete cycling then after break in cut back to where you were.

[flinchnjerk]

The Lee 228-1R's profile doesn't match that of a milspec round; it's "fatter" further out toward the nose. If your COAL is that of the milspec, it's too long. You say that your rounds get "stuck"; as in you can't extract an unfired round? That's because the fat ogive's getting stuffed into the rifling or leade. When you do get the round ripped from the pistol, look for rifling marks on the ogive. You'll find 'em.
As has been suggested, pull your barrel and drop a round into it. My guess is that the cartridge will protude past the barrel tang by at least the thickness of the rim. Seat the boolit to such depth as to have the round a hair below the end of the tang, and I suspect that happiness will ensue.

[fredj338]

You didn't say what kind of "jamb" you were getting. I run the exact same bullet in 5 diff 45acp, (40 1911s & an XD, all work fine. OAL runs a bit shorter than other designs. You MUST taper crimp, uncrimped rounds will refuse to chamber. Use enough powder; I rarely find starting laods work in most semiautos.

[AKsoldier]

First, I'm pretty intimately familiar with the 228-1R. And no, it ain't in any way a duplicate of factory ball. Look a little more closely. It has more bearing length and a shorter nose length than regular ball. 1R means 1 radius ogive. Ball or 230 FMJ's are two radius ogive.

This is the help I was seeking!

Your eyes aren't attuned to small differences in bullet appearance yet, and how that affects proper overall length and functioning. We'll get you up to speed.

Yeah, I can see what you're talking about now when I compare them side-by-side.

Don't set its overall length by a milspec round. The short nose of the 228-1R means that if loaded to the same length as factory ball, too much bearing surface will be out of the case, and the gun won't lock up because the bullet will hit the lead (rifling origin) and prevent full chambering. I think this is my problem. It makes the most sense given the "symptoms".

"The pistol jammed with four different factory loads, then locked up tight with my hand-loads using my cast boolits."

Ding Ding Ding!!! Just what you found to be true!

"I tried chambering another of my cast rounds after the WD-40 and it's stuck again. I'm thinking there's something else going on here."

Once again, confirmation of what I've just stated.

Please post your overall length. OAL for factory stuff (Winchester 230 gr. FMJ cheap stuff - 1.265. My hand-loads with 230 gr. hard-ball: 1.260. The cast boolits: 1.255. Maybe I need to seat deeper?

Correct, for my guns to allow the cartridge to chamber properly, is in the range of 1.210" to 1.220."

Second, what magazines are you using? Please don't tell me they're Shooting Stars. Or Triple K's, or some other gawd awful magazine. Shooting Stars are predisposed toward problems because of an excessively weak magazine spring. Para Ordnance sent us their own hi-cap mags, and the springs are so strong I am unable to load them to their capacity without the aid of a speed-loader. And I can CRUSH most men's hands. ;-)

Triple K's? Well, one look at those and you know the "genius" who designed them didn't know a damn thing about a 1911.

Telling us the exact magazine and type, and the shape of the feed lips. A picture would be helpful.

Third and finally; describe the exact cartridge position when it jams; whether the case rim was fully under the extractor, case nearly in the chamber, etc. Just saying "it jammed" doesn't convey any information. Describing the exact cartridge position when it jams will give big clues to what's causing it. The gun attempts to chamber the round, but fails to move to full battery position. The slide is roughly 1/4 inch to the rear and will not move either forward or backward with any amount of convincing.

Without those "big clues" we will find it harder to diagnose, and a "good break in" might not be the answer to the problem.

A gun that suffers multiple jams right off the bat doesn't need a "good break in"......what's causing it is so out of sync that shooting it more ain't gonna help it start functioning better.

You problems are a lot different than what a simple "wearing in" would solve. A "break in jam" is a few minor hiccups, not a situation where it malfunctions as often as it feeds.

I have included more details here - I hope it helps. I need sleep now.

[35remington]

Seat to 1.220" and try again. If this doesn't work, try 1.210"

Remove the barrel from your pistol The loaded rounds should be flush with the barrel hood to chamber fully. This is the quick and easy way to determine if will work without wedging it in your pistol first.

Also, check case mouth diameter after bullet seating. It should be .472" or less. A taper crimp to .471" or .470" will turn in the case mouth flare left after the belling step.

This is SOP for reliability, as a flare to the case mouth will also prevent full chambering if the flare is wide enough.

Your "just out of battery" statement of 1/4 inch from closure pretty much indicate a dimensional fit issue.

[deerslayer]

Try just dropping in a case after you size it with no boolit. If the case fits then it is your boolit crimp/seating bulg or OAL giving you trouble. To narrow it down even further you can seat a boolit in a dummy round and cut it off flush with the brass with a hacksaw. Will that drop freely in the barrel. If not then it is a boolit sizing, bulge, or crimp issue. If it the cut off dummy round drops in then your OAL is probably to long.

I had a similar issue and If your OAL is to long PM me and I will forward a pm regarding this another member sent me that helped me alot.

[Echo]

Your description of your jams tells me that your magazines don't like the OAL of your rounds. Seating deeper should correct the problem. The rounds are not even contacting the leade, so they aren't seizing there. They are going in to the chamber cocked, and the boolit is seated too long to allow the round to find it's way.

FYI, and I know this goes against what fourteen other posters have said, seating the boolits out to engrave the leade is my recommendation. Disassemble the gun, adjust the OAL of the loaded rounds until, when dropping them into the chamber, they remain proud of the hood a small amount (not more than the thickness of the rim). That will reduce endplay to zero and improve accuracy, and the gun will have no trouble engraving the cast boolit lightly into the leade. I use this technique on all my .45ACP loading, and it works well in both my house gun and my wad gun. I use parallel-feed magazines in my guns.

And I'm a Distinguished Pistol Shot.

I have spoken.

[casterofboolits]

I have to agree with others who have suggested that OAL and taper crimp are the culprits. The taper crimp is extremly important. I have used that boolit in several 1911's with no problems as long as the OAL and taper crimp was correct. Also +1 on using the barrel as a go/no go gage.

I am a firm beliver in seating the boolit and taper crimping as seperate operations.

Also I size all my 45ACP boolits to .452

[StarMetal]

Ding Ding Ding.....I mentioned taking the barrel out and using it as a seating gauge. All the rest of the BS isn't pertinent if you would follow those instructions. Almost any seasoned 1911 aficionado know that trick.

All a big head ache over a very simple thing.[smilie=f:

[Gohon]

Ding Ding Ding.....I mentioned taking the barrel out and using it as a seating gauge. All the rest of the BS isn't pertinent if you would follow those instructions. Almost any seasoned 1911 aficionado know that trick.
All a big head ache over a very simple thing.[smilie=f:

Yep......what he said. I was trying to get some casts to shoot in my 1911 and was have zero luck. Took recommendations from all over the place as to OAL from A to Z and nothing worked. Finally took out the barrel and used it as a gauge and discovered I needed to go far below any recommended OAL. Just didn't seem right as far as what all the experts were saying but bingo........... they now load and shoot like a champ. BTW, it was the Lee 452-200-RF that I was working with.

[deerslayer]

Ding Ding Ding.....I mentioned taking the barrel out and using it as a seating gauge. All the rest of the BS isn't pertinent if you would follow those instructions. Almost any seasoned 1911 aficionado know that trick.

All a big head ache over a very simple thing.[smilie=f:

Although this sounds very simple and it is. Look at this from a noob perspective (I am still a noob and just learned this recently). When you get into reloading all the common sense advice and safety advice says to find at least three books to check your load with and do not deviate.

I typically use the boolit mentioned above lee 200 grn rnfp. Book says Min OAL is 1.19 and I have come to find out that 1.156 works a whole lot better in my gun after some one explained that you could deviate from the books a little using the barrel as a go nogo gauge and reducing powder charge.

Now had someone on this board not taken the time to explain this to me and tell me how to make this work for my particular application I would still be having this problem. We were all new to this at one time or another!!

[theperfessor]

Too bad Lee doesn't make a 2R bullet with conventional lube grooves, I seem to see a lot of posts all concerning the 1R design. Since I don't use mule snot I'll stick to my Lyman 452374s. A 6 cavity 2R Lee with conventional lube grooves would grace my mold collection posthaste if one were offered!

[fredj338]

Your description of your jams tells me that your magazines don't like the OAL of your rounds. Seating deeper should correct the problem. The rounds are not even contacting the leade, so they aren't seizing there. They are going in to the chamber cocked, and the boolit is seated too long to allow the round to find it's way.

FYI, and I know this goes against what fourteen other posters have said, seating the boolits out to engrave the leade is my recommendation. Disassemble the gun, adjust the OAL of the loaded rounds until, when dropping them into the chamber, they remain proud of the hood a small amount (not more than the thickness of the rim). That will reduce endplay to zero and improve accuracy, and the gun will have no trouble engraving the cast boolit lightly into the leade. I use this technique on all my .45ACP loading, and it works well in both my house gun and my wad gun. I use parallel-feed magazines in my guns.

And I'm a Distinguished Pistol Shot.

I have spoken.
Maybe we read the problem diff but not going into battery has little to do with the mags. Loading rounds to engage the bullet into rifling is not only prone to failures to go into battery, it serves little purpose, does not improve accuracy & can raise pressures w/ the wrong powders.

[Echo]

AKS indicated that his rounds were hanging up with the slide 1/4" out of battery. In this case, the round is nowhere near the origin of the rifling - OAL is the culprit, as the round is indeed 'Jammed' in the chamber, with the full power of the recoil spring slamming it in, but not home.

And I stand by my position of seating boolits (not condom balls!) out to engrave the rifling. I suggest those who disagree try it out, and let me know the result. I seat my SWC's (452460) so the driving band is out maybe .030 from the mouth of the case, with no problems.

[StarMetal]

Maybe we read the problem diff but not going into battery has little to do with the mags. Loading rounds to engage the bullet into rifling is not only prone to failures to go into battery, it serves little purpose, does not improve accuracy & can raise pressures w/ the wrong powders.

I won't agree to engaging the rifling does not improve accuracy. This is an important concept in the whole ideal of loading cast bullets. One adjusts his load when doing this. I'm that you are aware that the super accurate target 22 rimfires do this very thing...engrave the bullet into the rifling. If you believe this all I can say is that you're missing out on a lot of wonderful and accurate cast shooting. Now don't get me wrong...of course someone can take this too far or do it entirely wrong as to cause problems.

[StarMetal]

AKS indicated that his rounds were hanging up with the slide 1/4" out of battery. In this case, the round is nowhere near the origin of the rifling - OAL is the culprit, as the round is indeed 'Jammed' in the chamber, with the full power of the recoil spring slamming it in, but not home.

And I stand by my position of seating boolits (not condom balls!) out to engrave the rifling. I suggest those who disagree try it out, and let me know the result. I seat my SWC's (452460) so the driving band is out maybe .030 from the mouth of the case, with no problems.

Take note that the barrel and slide move back roughly 1/8 inch with the barrel still fully locked up, so in essence we're looking at 1/8 inch out of battery. It's closer then you think.

[gray wolf]

A gun that suffers multiple jams right off the bat doesn't need a "good break in"......what's causing it is so out of sync that shooting it more ain't gonna help it start functioning better.
You problems are a lot different than what a simple "wearing in" would solve. A "break in jam" is a few minor hiccups, not a situation where it malfunctions as often as it feeds.

I am inclined to agree with the quote above.
Lets take the cast bullets out of the equationWhy did the factory ball fail to function ? Big clue right there.
If it wont feed factory ball ammo then there is something going on with the pistol right from the get go. If it wont feed what it was intended to feed --well it's a fat chance it's going to feed some Hy-bred bullet.
What did the gunsmith do ? and what kind of improvement did you get.
I have seen many 1911 that would not function out of the box, this could be one of them.
The 1911 is not a complicated platform BUT The geometry of all the parts must be correct for it to function. I wont list all the parts.
So what do we know about this pistol ?
It will strip a round from the mag, It hits the feed ramp, hits the top of the barrel,
and goes into the chamber 80% of the way in. It has to do these things to get as far as it gets. I doubt very much that the mags are allowing a straight in feed.
I discount crimp if the factory rounds are jamming also.
So why is the round not going into the chamber fully ?
Is the chamber to tight ? Um --big maybe.
I will step way out on a broken limb here and take a guess
EXTRACTOR--could it be to tight and not letting the bullet float enough to fully enter the chamber. The next time a round does not go fully into battery look and see if it is fully under the extractor.
As for the crimp--it only has to get rid of the case mouth flare.
Get this pistol shooting factory ball without a hick cup and then work on the lead.
or get a lead bullet like the Lyman 452374 and seat it to about 1.160 and play with that.
PLEASE do not take a tool to the feed ramp I don't think it's the feed ramp anyway.
OK out on another broken limb here, Look at the breach face, is is nicked, or to ruff ?
Or perhaps it needs a .001 taken from it.
These are just some different thoughts, I still think the whole problem still lies with the fact that it wont feed factory ammo.

Sam

[Fixxah]

Thank you for my freedom.

[slim1836]

I have the LEE 230 grain six cavity bullet mold which produces .452 diameter bullets. I run them through a LEE .451 sizer and have not yet had a problem with the feed or ejection out of my Colt 1911 made in 1917. I do taper the casing some to set the bullet on, but only slightly. I used the LLA straight from the bottle, some were heavier lubed than others and have so far made no difference in the weapon. I will be changing the lube in the future to try out some of the recipies I saw on the site.
I am new to casting and reloading and have been very happy so far with my results. A lot of my success is due to all of the posts on this site. Love to read the experiences of others.

[HeavyMetal]

The OP says he fired 60 rounds of ball ammo and only had 2 failures to feed. This could be frm being "tight" or poorly lubed before it was shot!

I will suggest double checking the size of the boolits and playing with a few dummy rounds made up to check OAL and fit to chamber.

Warning: WD-40 will really case issues with ammo if it is in contact long enough! Never use wd-40 as a gun lube or to clean or "lube" loaded ammo.


Just having a spray can in your garage can cause primer failures from across the room!

I am fortunate enough t have two of the Lee 6 banger group buy molds run 2 years ago on a real ball RNL design with a standard lube groove!

Wonder why that hasn't been re run??

Back to the OP's problem: I have heard more people complain about the Lee 228 1R design than any other mold Lee has!

I will suggest you retire said mold and buy a TC non tumble lube or or find the Lyman RNL design.

[AKsoldier]

Thanks for the continued input folks, I haven't had time to mess with it yet. I'll try the barrel as a go/no-go trick when I have time. This weekend is for the kids though. I promised them I'd finish building their tree house.

All the gunsmith did was clamp the slide in a vise with the muzzle pointing down, and hit the back strap with his hand, forcing the slide to move back and eject the stuck round.

I did have jams with all ammo I tried, but it still functioned and fired with everything else. My cast rounds simply won't chamber. It did chamber and fire the first one, but the second locked it up, and after cleaning the lube off the third did the same. Thanks for the tip on WD-40 by the way, I'll remove it from my loading table.

When I can, I'll play with the OAL a bit and see if I can get them to function. Have a great weekend everyone, and Fixxah - you're welcome. It is my honor to serve!

[StarMetal]

Thanks for the continued input folks, I haven't had time to mess with it yet. I'll try the barrel as a go/no-go trick when I have time. This weekend is for the kids though. I promised them I'd finish building their tree house.

All the gunsmith did was clamp the slide in a vise with the muzzle pointing down, and hit the back strap with his hand, forcing the slide to move back and eject the stuck round.

I did have jams with all ammo I tried, but it still functioned and fired with everything else. My cast rounds simply won't chamber. It did chamber and fire the first one, but the second locked it up, and after cleaning the lube off the third did the same. Thanks for the tip on WD-40 by the way, I'll remove it from my loading table.

When I can, I'll play with the OAL a bit and see if I can get them to function. Have a great weekend everyone, and Fixxah - you're welcome. It is my honor to serve!

You will know right away with the barrel for gauge if the cast bullet diameter is too fat too.

[bigboredad]

I had a lee tc tl mold that caused fits for my springfield 1911 after lots of help hear I decided on the rcbs 230-rn. it was a tad bit spendy but it feeds wonderfully in my 1911 . It is not a true copy of the g.i. ball but close enough. I have been very happy with the mold it drops about .453 using straight ww. amd again I removed the barrel and used it to set my oal I have know Idea what the actual number is.

[Edubya]

All the gunsmith did was clamp the slide in a vise with the muzzle pointing down, and hit the back strap with his hand, forcing the slide to move back and eject the stuck round.

AK, In the future, if that ever happens again, either drill out a hole in a 2X4" to allow your barrel to fit into and just push hard on the grip with the barrel aligned into that hole forcing the cartridge to eject or use the ejection port to hang up on a wooden shooting bench and again push the grip downward. I know that this does not explain it well and I wood have trouble explaining it in a thousand words, just look at the gun and think about forcing the grip forward while holding the slide back.

EW

[AKsoldier]

AK, In the future, if that ever happens again, either drill out a hole in a 2X4" to allow your barrel to fit into and just push hard on the grip with the barrel aligned into that hole forcing the cartridge to eject or use the ejection port to hang up on a wooden shooting bench and again push the grip downward. I know that this does not explain it well and I wood have trouble explaining it in a thousand words, just look at the gun and think about forcing the grip forward while holding the slide back.

EW

No worries - makes perfect sense. I can envision the entire process. Thanks!

[Mk42gunner]

Para Ordnance sent us their own hi-cap mags, and the springs are so strong I am unable to load them to their capacity without the aid of a speed-loader. And I can CRUSH most men's hands.

This is a big clue. Try another magazine; if the magazine spring is putting to much pressure on the round in the feed lips, it can slow the return velocity of the slide so much that there isn't enough energy left to fully chamber the cartridge and return to battery.

I have never seen a magazine fora 1911, single stack or widebody, that couldn't be loaded by hand.

Using the barrel for a chamber fit gage is a good idea.


Robert

[Tedak]

I had the same problem of failure to go into battery with the 452-228 1R (sized .452") in my RIA 1911. I had to reduce the OAL dramatically (1.200") in order for it to chamber reliably. The finished product looked ridiculous... but it worked. I used the naked barrel as a gauge, as mentioned earlier in this thread.

I traded-up to a S&W 1911 (for other reasons), and I am seating the same boolit out at 1.250" with no chambering issues and it is as accurate as I can shoot it.

I'd hold off on buying those FMJ's....

[AKsoldier]

Thanks again for the help folks! I finally found the time to break it down and used the barrel as a "go/no-go" for three different loaded rounds: A Winchester factory 230 hardball, my hand-loaded 230 hardball, and one of my Lee 228 cast handloads. Both of the hardball loads fit all the way in, but the cast load hung up about .090" out.

It seems most of you are steering me right - I'm going to load up a few tonight and seat them a little deeper and see if that solves the problem.

[Josh Smith]

A friend of mine had the exact same problem with his widebody Para.

I advised him to run the finished round through the resizing die with the decapper pulled. That worked. Had him then get a Lee FCD. No problems since.

I just figure Paras have tight chambers.

I do agree that the magazines could be a lot of the problem.

How is the extractor tension? Tight, just right?

Josh

[AKsoldier]

I think tight chamber is it. I loaded some cast rounds seated deeper and they get hung up before going all the way in. I'm thinking I need to get a .451 sizing die. My sizing die is a cheap Lee model. I'm concerned the die would suffer damage if I pushed loaded rounds through it. I think I'll just hold off and get a .451.

[Doby45]

Have you slugged the barrel? How do you know what size your specific 1911 requires if you have no slugged the barrel? Really tight chamber could also mean really tight bore. Might just need to have the chamber reamed to loosen it up a bit.

[HangFireW8]

I understand break-in, I've been told 1911's in particular like to have a fair amount of use before they start functioning well. I plan to "bite the bullet" (pun intended) and invest in about 500 230 gr. hardball bullets to load up and get it loosened up and working.

I have a different suggestion. Modern UMC and USA (Rem and Winchester) 45 hardball is under spec by about 125FPS. If you want to break it in with real GI hardball, hand load some 230gr ball to 830fps.

Not only does it function better, but your gun may actually shoot to point of aim instead of well under.

I have to shake my head at the modern "break it in" culture vis-a-vis 1911's. An old, properly made Colt's Government Model just worked. Most of our modern 1911 clones seem to have lost something in translation. I suffered with one of these new wonder brand 1911's for a while, fixed half a dozen things wrong with it, finally sold it off and got an old Colt, that fixed the rest. Well, I did send it back in to have the front sight staked back on straight.

It shouldn't take 500 rounds and a live-in gunsmith to make a 1911 work. If everyone returned their **** for fixing to the manufacturers, they would fix their problems or go out of business trying to. In the mean time we are coddling the idiots making this stuff, making excuses for them and doing their work for them.

Just my opinion. If it doesn't work after 100 rounds, send it back. Send it back every 100 rounds after that every time it has a stoppage until its fixed. A good 1911 has freaking AMAZING reliability. It is hard to find a good 1911 anymore.

-HF

[243winxb]

Take measurements of your loaded rounds. They should not be larger than the maximums shown here. http://www.stevespages.com/page8d.htm Click the 45 acp. Your loaded rounds should fall into & out of the barrel. If all else fails, have the gun smith run a 45acp chamber reamer in to your barrel, open it up a little. http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/45seatingpossibilitiesxn.jpg

[skeettx]

Hello All
Here is a different tact.
The ammo is oversize, AK, and the Lee sizer should be fine.

If you have a spare non carbide 45 ACP sizing die or a friend who has one, take 7 loaded rounds , lube the cases SLIGHTLY and size them in the full length die slowly.

Or come over to my house and I will do it for you.

Is Amarillo close to the Last Frontier?

Load and shoot and report results
Mike

[35remington]

Please measure the outside diameter of your rounds before concluding anything is wrong....if the round is within spec, it's the overall length.

If it's not within spec, you need to determine why and correct it. I doubt a thousandth smaller sizer is the cure for your problem. Your chamber clearance should be plenty for a .452" bullet. Crooked bullet seating, causing a bulge in one side of the case from the crookedness also has the potential to make rounds oversized. Check your bullet/seating stem for correct fit of the ogive into the stem.

Sizing finished rounds in the sizing die has the potential to squeeze the case and bullet excessively, loosening bullet pull and causing bullet setback as it travels up the feedramp. Such cartridges may cause higher pressure, not a good thing. This is not intended by the manufacturer of your dies as a normal loading procedure! Before someone mentions the LFCD, please note that it is larger in diameter in its sizing than a conventional sizing die, reducing the amount of "oversqueeze."

Figure out why first before attempting ill advised corrections.

As I and others have previously mentioned, the Lee has a long bearing surface and short ogive, and overall length may have to be drastically shorter than a ball round to get it to chamber fully without being stopped short by hitting the rifling origin. Short throats in 45 ACP's are very common.

Try seating depth (once you're sure bullets are being seated straight) reduction to as short as 1.200" to see if they will chamber.

Also, measure the case mouth diameter after the bullet is seated. This should be .472" or less. If it is not you need to taper crimp to remove the flare left from the case belling step. Further, measure the outside diameter of the case over the bullet right about in the middle of where it's seated. This should also be less than the spec for the 45 to allow proper chambering.

[35remington]

243's pictures are a good practical way to determine if your rounds fit properly and it is a great help that he posted them.

However, the word "headspace" in describing how the rounds fit is incorrect. Headspace is the measurement between the chamber stop shoulder and the breechface. It is not correct to call cartridge fit "headspace" when it gives no reference to the location of the breech as in these pictures.

Some hoods are fit with no gap to the breechface; others, like on some of my 1911's, have a slight gap so an above flush round will still work properly and headspace correctly.

However, following the pictures will produce rounds that will function correctly. Just don't be confused by the words above the pictures that claim such a depiction is a representation of headspace. Without the breech/hood relationship being known, it's no such thing.

The second from the right "flush headspace" picture may not be flush headspace at all.....it's just flush with the hood. The far right picture may still represent a cartridge that works correctly in many guns. It is possible that it may not, though, so it's of some value but it doesn't represent headspace.

But it's still darn helpful as a picture aid. Thanks, 243.

[StarMetal]

Ditto 35remington, the man knows what he is talking about. I'd bet my firearm collection that either 35remington or I could solve the problem in about 2 minutes if we had the gun, brass, dies, and bullets in hand. You don't have to buy a taper crimp die to remove the mouth flare on the case. You can adjust a roll crimp to just do that.

I cannot count the of 45acps I've owned and never have these kind of problems. I also shoot big 255-260 grain SWC's meant for the 45 Colt from my 45acp's too with no problems. Probably my most difficult 45acp is my Ruger Blackhawk with it's darn tightest chambers I've ever seen on a 45acp in my life, but with judiciousness reloading I even get that to work very well.

The one thing mentioned I would never ever do, and 35remington mentioned this too, is size down a loaded round because you're not only sizing the case down you're sizing the bullet down. You would never get any kind of accuracy and more then likely get leading and other headaches.

I would first size the casings down. Then I would try those casings in barrel that has been removed from the gun. Then primer, powder, and bullet them up. Mic your bullets to make sure they aren't fatter then .452. Now try this loaded round in the barrel and go by the pictures 243 posted...see how it fits, how easy it enters the chamber. You may have to adjust your seating depth. If the seating depth changes A LOT from the reloading manual you are using towards deeper seating, then cut your load back a tad. Throw those OAL measurements in the book out the window. Use that barrel for a gauge.

[35remington]

Starmetal, good point about the bullet seating depth and how it drives up pressures if the bullet seats deeper.

No disagreements with roll crimping working either on the ACP as of course it can, contrary to what some may believe. The point is knowing to do it properly to remove any flaring.

I see a lot of guys having chambering issues because they haven't turned in the case mouth bell and the cartridge just kind of wedges to a stop as the flared case mouth approaches the front of the chamber.

Make sure the flare is gone!

[xringshutr]

This may or may not help everyone to figure out the problem, but these these hi-cap Para's that can be special purchased during deployments also have an extremely stiff recoil spring. I'd bet money that when the slide locked into battery from the over length round (that's my theory to the problem too BTW) it was not easy to clear! They are definetely set up for full house GI Ball ammo. They are however really accurate 1911's. Very tight tolerances all the way throughout.

[johnlaw484]

If you find that the loaded rounds are oversize for your chamber you may want to consider a Lee factory crimp die. The FCD sizes the loaded round to max, specs. Some here curse the FCD, but the complaint is due to it sizing down large boolits, which can be a plus in this case. Just run the rounds through the die backed off so as to not crimp, if they are already crimped, and it will remove any bulges or oversizes. You don't state what brass you used, but if the brass was fired in a gun with an unsupported chamber (Glock and a few others) you may have a bulged case that most sizing dies will not remove completely. Lee has a bulge buster kit for cheap that will remove the bulge even on loaded rounds.

Always use a factory crip die with a 1911. I had the same problem with my Kimber, Remington, Taurus and Colt.
Check the maximum case lenght.
Maximum overall lenght 1.275.
1911's are like women they they all have the same parts, but all like different things.

[olmarriedman]

I've used some Lee alox that came with the sizer and put some powdered graphite. You get black fingers, but have shot over a hundred rounds with no jams or cleaning.