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rockrat
06-09-2010, 09:40 AM
Been playing with a 357max in my Ruger #1. Went to the range yesterday (sorry-no pics-forgot to bring home target[smilie=b:) and getting some interesting results.

Getting verticle stringing using Lil Gun with the 360-180 GB, but loads don't show any pressure signs on the primer and eject just fine, so will go up in charge, maybe .5 gr. more to see if I can get rid of it. Velocity is 2200fps

The interesting thing is the 358156 boolit showed the best group at about 2" @ 100 yds. Velocity was 2398fps

I can get good groups with the 357-180Sil boolit, using AA1680 but velocities are only a tad over 2000 fps.

If I can get the 360180 boolit shooting well at higher velocities, probably near 2300fps, would it be preferable to hunt with that boolit at a high velocity, or a softer alloy , say ACWW's, at around 18-1900fps or so. Max range 100yds.

Is a nonexpanding boolit with a decent meplat better for hunting, than a boolit that might expand a little, but is going slower? Thinking along the lines of the 358156 or the 360180.

Thanks

BABore
06-09-2010, 10:08 AM
Change your alloy to 50/50 WW-Pb and water drop them. It will be around 20-22 bhn. Plenty hard for the application, tough, and will expand at that velocity and even lower. A very good hunting alloy.

I'm in the middle of working up loads for a 20" 357 Max, T/C Encore bbl from MGM. I went with one of the forum experts on the max, 357Maximum. I used his load data of VV N120 powder and a Remington 7 1/2 primer that he uses in his 15" Encore bbl. Other than me running a 1/2 grain hotter for my sweet spot, we're getting similar accuracy. Just under/over 1", 5-shot groups at 100 yards. We're both using the same 360-180 GC boolit I have listed on my site with the alloy described above.

One thing to keep in mind here. Most all of the max data is for revolver's and single shot pistols. Going to a rifle length bbl, you can utilize a slightly slower burning powder than the typical 296/H110 and Lil Gun. Although I've done the majority of my testing with N120, I did just load up a few sets of IMR 4227 loads last night. I have yet to chrono anything so far. As I'm pretty well set on my N120 load, I may do that this weekend.

Bass Ackward
06-09-2010, 11:37 AM
Is a nonexpanding boolit with a decent meplat better for hunting, than a boolit that might expand a little, but is going slower? Thinking along the lines of the 358156 or the 360180.


Better? Besides the fact that expansion has worked for centuries, less limiting is how I look at it. If I use expansion I don't have to worry about "ideal windows" or perfect meplats, etc.

On the other hand, many using cast with some sort of meplat may credit a single strategy for results when in fact they may be getting both.

In 45 caliber you will get / begin expansion at 2000 fps and maybe lower on tougher material with 30 BHN bullets using a 70% meplat design. 2400 fps will give you nice expansion on anything that just doesn't break off from expanding. I find big chunks of lead stronger initially, but less flexible than smaller pieces (bores) at the same hardness.

With 35 caliber you being expansion around 1700 with 30 BHN and 70% meplat. (less strength from bullet diameter) And at 2400 fps, like your 358156 example above, it is going to appear as though you were hollow pointed if you hit something at less than 75 yards. That may not even exit.

So when a single strategy is credited, is it really? And quite honestly it doesn't matter? Everything has it's limitations. The important thing for "YOU" is to learn to use and adjust your bullet designs, velocity, hardness, and shot angles accordingly so that your chosen strategy produces the results you desire while living within the limitations it presents.

Blammer
06-09-2010, 12:21 PM
here is my results at a modest velocity (I forgot but I think it's around 1600fps) and the dish HP design. With my 360 DW. I currently have this loaded up and ready for the next deer season.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=60958

I think if you are pushing 2200fps or better on a flat point you'll definitely get some "expansion" with just AC WW's.

I also know that an AC WW HP 360180 at 2400fps (this HP was much deeper than the pics in the above link) out of my Whelen is like a bomb out to 50 yds and still very accurate out to 100 yds. (shot a ground hog and had "chunks'' flying around, it was a bit much. :) )

I'll likely be shooting my standard 360180FP at 2400 fps out of my whelen and will have no fear or worries about taking a deer out to about 175 yds. I'm sure it will mushroom and punch through.

StarMetal
06-09-2010, 12:29 PM
My deer hunting bullet for my Brownchester 1886 45-70 carbine was the 405 grain RCBS that was cast from AC WW's. (I'm now using AC 50/50). I loaded it to 1800 fps at the muzzle (that too has been changed) and I'm positive that it expands as I harvested a nice big doe with it one year at the distance of 200 yards and I recovered the bullet.

44man
06-09-2010, 03:09 PM
I don't like the Lil'gun your using. It is VERY hot burning in a .357 and I feel you will erode the throat of that fine rifle fast. Most likely causing the stringing too.
Give the boolit a more sustained push with a cooler powder. 4227 is junk in a .44 but was the best in the .357 max.
In the .44, 4227 was extremely heat sensitive and as the gun gets hot, the burn rate changes but it showed none of that in the max.
12 slow shots from a .357 Freedom using Lil'gun turned the barrel into a soldering iron. I could not touch it. This heat HAS to affect burn rates.
Babore likes N120 and I have to agree with him on this along with 4227.
To choose a powder for pure velocity is the wrong path. Powder does not work the same in every caliber and every pressure. You can turn powder into an enemy with the wrong application.
You might think I compare apples to oranges with the .357 and the max but using heavy boolits in the max brings the powder space pretty close together.
Once you find the powder and accuracy, then you WORK ON BOOLIT COMPOSITION for what you want to do at the velocity you wind up with. You are still not done because a change in alloy will require a change in load too.
I am not about to simplify this because it is not simple. It takes work and experience but trying to shoot only as fast as you can will put you out of the loop.
Babore, Bass and StarMetal have been more diplomatic but they are all right on the money, listen to them.

357maximum
06-09-2010, 04:21 PM
I use Vhit N-120 and remington 7.5 primers as that is where my speed and accuracy came together....but my barrel is a full bull encore 15incher made by MGM.

As far as powders I will report my experience with the normal suspects.

N120- nice blend of speed and accuracy and my chosen propellant after much experimenting. N-120 and rem 7.5 primers have been THEE combo for several maxes and a few similar rounds .........It balances well and also seems to be THEE powder in a few 30 herretts I have played with. I suggest a 21 grain start load with the 180's and go up from there. 22 to 23 grains seems to be the sweet spot for most with a 180 made of wd'ed 50/50.

H4227- Good powder for very accurate shooting albeit at less speeds than N-120 will deliver.....MY #2 choice if I could not get N-120

AA1680- just about worthless and I have no idea how published velocities can be achieved in the 357max case.......this powder also likes to deliver huge fireballs that serve no purpose in a hunting iron..it may be better in your longer barrel but I would not bet on it.

H- LilGun- Pretty good powder for brute speed, but it gets real hairy at upper end loads.........loads that are fine at 70 degrees will show stupid pressure spikes at 80+ degrees when you are near the upper end of load data.........very hard on the throat of the gun also..........I did alot of erosion to mine with it and I discontinued it's use. Your verticle stringing tells me you are real close to the oh no zone..step back and think hard about what is happening here.

H110-296- not a good choice in my 15 incher.......very squirrely acting powder....I left it alone after some weird pressure spikes.


As far as boolits I have used several weights and the 180grainers always seem to work better. The most accurate I have found is the BRP 360-180 although the RCBS 35-180 is a close second for accuracy. Unfortunately the RCBS 180 Sil boolit has a shape not made for hunting.

I use an alloy of WD'ed 50/50 pure/ww and have very happy with performance from 40 to 240 yards when said boolits kills my deer. I do not recommend the 240 yard shot for all, but I am intimately familiar with my max and I was killing the buck on my homerange and knew the exact yardage. When the wd 50/50 boolits hits a deer the boolit expands a bit and exits the far side in all but the 1 shot for me. I have killed 10 deer or so with mine and only recovered one boolit and that was a wider meplate design by Lar45.........the deer still died very quick and well though. I have had a few bang/flops, but most do the 30-70 yard death sprint, but that has alot to do with my preferred boolit placement right at the back of the shoulder. When I mess up slightly and hit the shoulder they normally go down right NOW.

Trying to use lighter than 180 grainers to gain speed is foolhearted........you get the speed, but you risk boolit failure and definately destroy more meat if the boolit lands in the shoulder or near it........I have already made that mistake and would suggest you do not go there. Speed is not the only factor at play here....It is a balancing act of speed/accuracy/boolit design/alloy. I took me awhile to get there, but I am happy as a clam to be there. I did not have the benefit of others endeavors to go by so I had to stumble along until I found my 357max Nirvana. You have the opportunity to use others endavors to your advantage.

I hunt in a shotgun/ml/pistol zone for the first few days of each gun season(my back 20 in fact). My neighbor watched me shoot a buck that was 140 yards from me in HIS stubble field a few years back. He came ove to congratulate me on the kill and was pertnear floored when he realized what I had just made the shot with. He said my pistol sounds like a rifle and came over to actually catch me "cheating" so he could rib me about it. He too now owns a max on a contender frame, although he uses 180 grain j-words. :-)

rockrat
06-09-2010, 04:51 PM
Thanks for all the information. Will see if I can pick up some VV-120 and try it and also play with some 4227. Will put the Lil Gun back on the shelf.

AA1680 wasn't bad in the 20" bbl, but it was bright daylight and 95 degrees out at the range. If I had more, WW680 works great in the gun with J-words.

Will also try out the RD 359-190. Let you know once I get a chance to make it back to the range with some VV-120 loads.

Thanks

357maximum
06-09-2010, 05:01 PM
Thanks for all the information. Will see if I can pick up some VV-120 and try it and also play with some 4227. Will put the Lil Gun back on the shelf.

AA1680 wasn't bad in the 20" bbl, but it was bright daylight and 95 degrees out at the range. If I had more, WW680 works great in the gun with J-words.

Will also try out the RD 359-190. Let you know once I get a chance to make it back to the range with some VV-120 loads.

Thanks

You do not have to put the lilgun back on the shelf, but stopping the act of trying to make a 357max into a 357swift would be a good idea with that powder.

If you want to try some of the BRP-360-180's just shoot me a PM with your addy...I would more than gladly send you some to try for when you find some N-120 and some rem 7.5 sparkplugs.

runfiverun
06-09-2010, 10:09 PM
iv'e even gone to a slower powder.
aa-2230 but mainly because i'm shooting a saeco 250 grainer.
it does rather well in the revolver. it's still in the work up stage and hasn't gone over the chrono yet.
but has shown no spikes or funky stringing yet.
21 grs is where i started but with a light boolit etc you'll need to re-adjust.

rockrat
06-09-2010, 11:11 PM
Have the Rem 7 1/2's but checked the powder valley site and 120 isn't even listed. Is it still made? They show N110 and jump to N130

Was just curious to see what the Max would do in the Ruger and what kind of accuracy it would have.

357maximum
06-10-2010, 12:38 AM
N-120 is out there, but even my local supplier is having trouble. Good luck, and 4227 is a pretty close 2nd place if you cannot find it.

Bret4207
06-10-2010, 06:55 AM
I don't have any info on pushing the 358156 to the 2300+ area, but it will completely penetrate a whitetail at 25 yards at 1200 fps muzzle velocity in straight WW alloy. Exit hole and internal damage indicate some expansion may have taken place.

felix
06-10-2010, 08:13 AM
Bret, I have that experience at various distances. We can get some very accurate results with that boolit at that speed. In some other thread there was some talk of 350 yard "varmint" shooting, and these equivalent loads would fit the application perfectly. If there is any doubt, a 180 grainer would make the distance for sure at 2400 muzzle. Dead yote right there. ... felix