Annealing Boolit Noses

[Dannix]

I'm going to be water-dropping a boolit, but I'd like a softer nose. How do you anneal your boolit noses? I know a few guys here are doing this. Using a welding torch or something?

[357maximum]

I cast them, waterdrop them, seat check while push through sizing em, and then I stand them up in a shallow pan of water to the first drive band and simply wisp a propane or map gas torch across their nose. I normally slump one and see how many counts it takes...minus a count or two and do the rest. Then dry them naturally then I lube them in an oversize die. It works well and sure beats trying to make a two part nose.

[63 Shiloh]

I cast them, waterdrop them, seat check while push through sizing em, and then I stand them up in a shallow pan of water to the first drive band and simply wisp a propane or map gas torch across their nose. I normally slump one and see how many counts it takes...minus a count or two and do the rest. Then dry them naturally then I lube them in an oversize die. It works well and sure beats trying to make a two part nose.

That is very interesting 357 Maximum, thanks for the tip.

Have you ever measured the difference in hardness from the base of the boolit immersed in water and the nose that get 'annealed"?

Would this technique work on HP boolits, or would the heat cause the HP to deform? I am very keen to give this a try, looks like another casting project:lovebooli

Thanks for the info,

Mike

[357maximum]

That is very interesting 357 Maximum, thanks for the tip.You are very welcome, I am by no means the pioneer on this BTW.

Have you ever measured the difference in hardness from the base of the boolit immersed in water and the nose that get 'annealed"?With 50/50 wde'ed ww/pure I get 20-22 on the base and about 14-15 on the nose after 2 weeks.

Would this technique work on HP boolits, or would the heat cause the HP to deform? I have never tried it.....the boolit would be quite explosive I think. After what I did with a standard HP and a 357mag to a whitetail doe I would guess you would have a violent expansion.I am very keen to give this a try, looks like another casting project:lovebooli

Thanks for the info,

Mike


Good luck, have fun, report back.

Michael

[missionary5155]

Good morning
This is something I need to play with.. I have made two pert boolits for some time to pop pests with but that can be a trial to sanity.
Thanks for the info.

[303Guy]

Could one do the reverse and harden the base by standing the nose in water, heating the base and knocking it over into the water? Round noses might be a bit tricky.

[Bass Ackward]

Could one do the reverse and harden the base by standing the nose in water, heating the base and knocking it over into the water? Round noses might be a bit tricky.


Just don't PP first.

[BrianB]

357Max,

thanks for the info, that is very helpful and I had never thought/heard of that method. Now I can't wait to get out my NOE .360 mold out and give this a shot!

BTW, have you tried this with softer mixes? Maybe 33% WW with 66% pure lead?

[357maximum]

I have used it with 25WW/75Pure and YES it still works.......Just do not shoot a doe through both shoulders with that combo in a 1500fps+ 35cal load.........YOU WILL NOT LIKE THE RESULTS. :mad::oops:

[BrianB]

357 Max,

I'll keep that in mind. I haven't chronied it yet, but I'm guessing I'm pushing 180's in the 1800 fps ball park using .360 Dan Wesson cases and a good load of Lil' Gun.

Thanks for your help. I'll post results from my NOE mold.

BAB

[Dannix]

I cast them, waterdrop them, seat check while push through sizing em, and then I stand them up in a shallow pan of water to the first drive band and simply wisp a propane or map gas torch across their nose. I normally slump one and see how many counts it takes...minus a count or two and do the rest. Then dry them naturally then I lube them in an oversize die. It works well and sure beats trying to make a two part nose.
This is what I figured. Thanks for the response!

63 Shiloh, I'll be trying this on a rifle HP, but not in the near future. I'll revive the thread once I do though.

357maximum, did you get bullet failure, or just lots of wasted meat?

[357maximum]

No boolit failure, the boolit went in and out with a wound channel that looked like one of Nobels experiments had gond wrong in her. I have done this twice once with a super soft annealed and once with a HP............both times it was my fault for poor alloy/boolit choice and shot placement.....I have since learned to just use a flat point and shoot em..........they still end up in the freezer with alot less gelled and wasted meat.

[pdawg_shooter]

If you paper patch then a hard bullet is not needed. Pure lead can be pushed to around 2200fps and expansion is awesome.

[357maximum]

If you paper patch then a hard bullet is not needed. Pure lead can be pushed to around 2200fps and expansion is awesome.

I have paperpatched pure lead up to 2500 fps in a whelen, but you would not catch me using it on a deer..........crows and woodchucks maybe, but I like to have my venison in steaks not hairburgers.

When it "splodes" it is no longer called expansion.

[reloader28]

357maximun

I'm still a rookie, but why wouldnt the pure lead expand like a normal bullet?

[357maximum]

357maximun

I'm still a rookie, but why wouldnt the pure lead expand like a normal bullet?

Our castings do not have a copper clad shell to control the expansion with, that is why we contol the expansion by controlling the alloy. Pure lead can act like silly putty when it hits something at 2K+....I have seen it's effects on many mediums. No if you mix that pure lead 50/50 with ww's ...and waterdeop them and then you can enjoy partition like performance at the higher launch speeds.

[311-200]

I wonder will the annealing work at 980 fps?

[Bass Ackward]

I wonder will the annealing work at 980 fps?



Annealing will work on a slug at dead stop .... which by the way is the easiest pace to perform the anneal. :grin:

Expansion at any speed is contingent on the density of the material struck and the shear forces on the nose of the slug. And momentum. Meaning that the wider the meplat in relation to the bullet diameter, the greater the expansion.

8 BHN " can " achieve expansion as low as 500 fps. Key word there is can. Guaranteed expansion, with guaranteed defined as every hunter wanting MASSIVE expansion from even the smallest meplat from every shot angle, at any distance, is closer to a strike velocity of 1000 fps.

I have no wants from that impact velocity myself in 357 diameter on up.

[311-200]

Bass Ackward
Thank you for your reply!

[303Guy]

Might I ask here then, am I overdoing the hollow nose thing with a fairly soft alloy?

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/TWO-GROOVE2136grBOOLIT.jpghttp://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/2136grTWO-GROOVEBOOLIT.jpg

The idea of the large hollow is to make the boolit perform on small critters at modest velocity but still have enough mass for piggies. I am hoping the explosive rim of the boolit will simply leave the rest of the nose to perform like a normal RN. There is a small nub inside the hollow which is supposed to make it work in the hoped for way.

This is what they do in soft sea sand. One can make out the remnants of the nub.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-610F.jpg

They do not expand this much in flesh type medium.

[runfiverun]

303 you might want to take a slightly different approach.
if it were my doings i'd oven treat the whole boolit then work on how much of the nose to either re-temper [ soften] or not depending upon deer or bird.
colored magic markers [for different depths of expansion] or even filling the nose with hot glue will differentiate and change the results.
i hope i haven't created a monster with more suggestions.
:lol:

[Dannix]

303, have you read the Gates Extreme Meplat thread (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=48098)? If I recall correctly, there was a dude in there talking about using an HP to slow the bullet down for the best terminal performance. Your 'sacrificial' HP reminded me of it. You may want to look into it. IIRC the goal was proper terminal performance at different velocitys. Apparently too fast can negate a metaplate's effectiveness or something.

You current design with the desired goal of expansion + penetration (like a Partition), seems like the perfect design to water drop then nose soften. Those are nice and long though, yielding some proper sectional density -- you get some nice penetration as is, at least for flesh. Hitting bone may be a different story.

For what you got right now, I'd line up a bunch of bottles, layers of spaced sheet rock, etc., see how deep it penetrates. Then use a JRN load to compare. Soft + HP -- you may have a varmint buster, but something that splodes too fast for oinkers.

Just some ideas from what I recall reading here. Wissen, not kennen, if you will.

[NSP64]

After reading many threads about annealling boolit noses, I thought i would try it. I cast some 44 devastator boolits and used WDWW. I took some and placed them in a pan of water over their drive bands. I filled the hollow points with water on some, and left others empty. I used a propane torch and turned the pan getting all sides of the nose. I applied heat until they got a grey/dark tint to them. The ones with water, just started to boil off.

I then used a home made test unit to cause some repeatable expansion of the hollow points.

Meplate of nose area .330
Unannealed noses expanded to .350
Annealed with water in them .360
Annealed wiithout water.380

I will be trying out in late doe only season.

[x101airborne]

303guy, NOW THAT'S COOL!!

[fredj338]

Would you not get the same results standing the bullets on their bases in apan of water , then baking them in the oven for say 30min @ 400deg?

[Bass Ackward]

I suppose so, but boiling water is how I soften slugs. So if the water came to a boil in that 30 minute span, then you would lose hardness overall.

No idea how you would control that.

[NSP64]

Maybee put them in a pan with water up to the driving bands. Now freeze the water solid. Place Boolit-cicle in preheated 400* oven. That might work.

[NSP64]

I think that my test shows the heating with a torch softens the nose. I used a large center punch(1 pound) falling down a 3' tube to impact the hollow point. The three different types of boolits show the same amount of deformation. All WDWW show a .350 spread, all heat softened with water filled cavities show .360 spread and all heated empty noses showed .380 spread.

[Tony65x55]

I've been annealing the noses of cast lead boolits for over 25 years now and .357 Maximum's info is right on the money. I usually use 50/50 lead/ww to make the boolit from but on faster projectiles I use ww metal. I anneal after the boolits are sized and lubed. As the lube is under the cold water the torch has no effect. All my small caliber stuff gets this treatment if I'm going to hunt with it. You can get even more versatility casting two part boolits.

The young man in the pic used one of my Saeco #316 150 gr boolits loaded into a 7.62x39 (Mini-30) at 2200 fps to kill this decent buck with one shot. Bang, flop, DRT.