165gr cast VS Bullet Proof vest

[WCF3030]

While at the range with the B.I.L. He pulled out his old Bullet Proof vest to see what it would do with a 22RF.
None of the rounds went thru.
Then I shot it with the 165gr cast at 1200fps and it flattened out and never entered the vest, but almost broke the limb it was attached too.
Then just for giggles I shot it with my 180gr Hornady inter-loc with 30gr of IMR 3031. That bullet went all the way thru both sides. Not a real surprise.
Had fun anyways!!!:drinks:

[dk17hmr]

What type of vest was it? Kevlar or ceramic? Thought bulletproof vests were rated for small arms fire, 7.62x39?

Remember a few years back when all those cops couldnt knock those 2 BG (bad guys) down in Hollywood who were trying to get away from robbing that bank. The cops should have used 30-30's.

[Haywire Haywood]

That 30/30 wouldn't have helped. Those bad guys in Hollywood weren't wearing soft armor (2A), they were outfitted with class 4 kevlar plate down to the knees. The only way to stop them short of AP ammo would have been to take head shots and lower leg shots. IIRC, the officers started shooting at the street in front of them to spatter bullets into their shins/calves.

Ian

[StarMetal]

Also if you think a 30-30 would do it why wouldn't you think a 7.62 x 39 round wouldn't? Especially that Chinese stuff that had an iron core. The little Soviet round is fairly close to the 30-30 ballistics.

Joe

[WCF3030]

This was your standard cop kevlar vest.
Second chance?
No plate. But the plate that came with it is not rated for a rifle round.
And no it is no where near what those lunitics where wearing in Cali.
My B.I.L. was more interested in seeing if the 22 would go thru. In some corners the word is they are so small that they slip thru.

[waksupi]

Some years back, a Montana HWP chased a criminal , and got him stopped right on the Idaho line. The bad guy got out, jacked a round into a .45-70, and shot the cop. Didn't penetrate the vest, but, it did collapse his chest back into his spine, killing him instantly.

[Haywire Haywood]

The plate that comes with the normal cop armor isn't there to stop bullets, it's positioned so that the impact of a direct hit over the heart is spread out over a larger area. I think I recall that without that, the impact could cause a heart attack or just stop the heart from beating.

Ian

[WCF3030]

The plate that comes with the normal cop armor isn't there to stop bullets, it's positioned so that the impact of a direct hit over the heart is spread out over a larger area. I think I recall that without that, the impact could cause a heart attack or just stop the heart from beating.

Ian

I'm don't really know too much about vest, just what it had said on the plate.
It had listed several lite pistol catridges that it was suppose to stop.

[357maximum]

If I were trying to stop them bad guys in Cal, my first thought would be .220 swift to the chest, I'M A thinking bullet choice would not matter much...If that did not work a 12 gauge slug to the groin would be my next thought. Just thinkin out loud, but I should be close to right,,right? From my point of view a head shot might not work, they obviously had no target rolling around in there...

Michael

[Bret4207]

I'd just as soon live in blissfull ignorance and NOT know what will go through mine! Just 'cuz the tag says "9mm+P+" doesn't mean 10 years of sweat hasn't affected that level. I love the cop shows where they strap on a vest over their street clothes. That screams "HEAD SHOT" to the bad guys. Hopefully I'll never have to find out if mine works. They do help in car crashes, so I wear mine pretty much everyday. Loosing close to 75 pounds helped alot comfort-wise.....

[WCF3030]

I'd just as soon live in blissfull ignorance and NOT know what will go through mine! Just 'cuz the tag says "9mm+P+" doesn't mean 10 years of sweat hasn't affected that level. I love the cop shows where they strap on a vest over their street clothes. That screams "HEAD SHOT" to the bad guys. Hopefully I'll never have to find out if mine works. They do help in car crashes, so I wear mine pretty much everyday. Loosing close to 75 pounds helped alot comfort-wise.....

I can understand that train of thought.
The one we used was a old (15 year) vest, that was my brother in laws. He had wanted to know about 22RF without the plate.:Fire:
His other one from Second chance had to be returned and he just received his new one.

[Boz330]

Years ago when I was working for a company in South Africa they wanted to make BP vest for the defence forces. Since I was the only shooter in the lot they asked me to experiment with how many layers it would take. I don't remember all of the specifics but as I worked up, what would stop a 45 wasn't much but when you shot at that with a 9mm it went right thru. We even tried backing that with Ballistic cloth which was the stuff used in the Viet Nam era flack jackets. The only advantage to this was to spead the impact out over a wider area but it was so stiff that you lost the flexibilty of the Kevlar. After everything was said and done they didn't manufacture them because the Kevlar was to hard to get ahold of and very expensive. It was really interesting doing the experimentig though.

Bob

[Larry Gibson]

Most vests are rated at certain levels of performance. I recently spent a year in Iraq. The issue vest was rated to stop 9mm which made it effective agaist most shrapnel. The "chicken plates", front and back were rated to stop 7.62 NATO Ball. The vest was VERY heavy and very uncomfortable if not worn correctly. It was also very hot and mobility was very restricted.

Back in the early '70s while attending a LE firearms instructor seminar I watched Mr. Davis of Second Chance shoot himself with a 2.5" M19 using Supervel HPs. My check opened instantly as did most in the seminar. I wore that vest every day I was on duty. Got a bad sunburn once and didn't wear it one day, went home after two hours I went home and put it on. I was more uncomfortable not wearing it than what the sunburn bothered me with it on. That vest saved me from serious injury twice and I still have it. While working on the "justification" for the PD to buy and issue them I contacted Mr. Davis who sent several test patches to shoot. He said to sok three large city phone books with water and put the test patches against that. Putting the patches agains something soft oor not against something would give a false indication of the vest's bullet stopping ability. The reason is the human body is mostly liquid and and has a certain amount of give to it. The patches were rated to stop a .44 magnum. I shot them at 12" with most every handgun caliber and cartridges I could come up with. They did in fact stop everything including the .44 Magnum. During that test was the second time I "shot" myself. (the first time is another story) I shot a test patch with the famous "man stopper" round of .38 special fame; the 200 gr RN. The bullet bounced off the test patch and hit me in the left leg leaving a pretty good welt. After the tests which were included in my report the PD promply bought vests for all officers. I always wore my original Second Chance and sometimes, given a serious situation, wore the issue vest over it.

Larry Gibson

[Bass Ackward]

During that test was the second time I "shot" myself. (the first time is another story) I shot a test patch with the famous "man stopper" round of .38 special fame; the 200 gr RN. Larry Gibson


Larry,

OK. We are on pins and needles. And the first time was ..................... :grin:

[mike in co]

I'd just as soon live in blissfull ignorance and NOT know what will go through mine! Just 'cuz the tag says "9mm+P+" doesn't mean 10 years of sweat hasn't affected that level. I love the cop shows where they strap on a vest over their street clothes. That screams "HEAD SHOT" to the bad guys. Hopefully I'll never have to find out if mine works. They do help in car crashes, so I wear mine pretty much everyday. Loosing close to 75 pounds helped alot comfort-wise.....

trp...just cause we have such a great communication trail going.....

just try to find a published saami spec for 9mm+P+

the original +p marked 9mm cases were just marketing hype..

no extra strenght in the cases...the loads to the top end of 9mm...

[SharpsShooter]

Some years back, a Montana HWP chased a criminal , and got him stopped right on the Idaho line. The bad guy got out, jacked a round into a .45-70, and shot the cop. Didn't penetrate the vest, but, it did collapse his chest back into his spine, killing him instantly.


Yup....That would sure do it............

[HTRN]

Right now, the hot thing in Body armor is "Interceptor" made by Point Blank Body Armor, Inc. AFAIK, it's only available to the US Military. It's the armor that caused an uproar that "we weren't protecting the troops" earlier this year. From what I hear, they make an excellent product, but they cater mostly to government agencies, rather than individuals. Second Chance is still one of the best names in vests, and it's who I would probably call if I needed one. Anybody actually wanting a vest should be aware that there's alot of snakeoil salesmen in this field, see the "Dragon Skin" debacle.

Brett, if your vest has seen ten years of use, it's time to replace it - the fibers loosen up over time, and UV tends to weaken kevlar. I know it isn't cheap, but it's one of those things we shouldn't hesitate to replace when it's lifespan is up. Can't you get the state police to pay for a replacement?


HTRN

[9.3X62AL]

Body armor--even the lighter Kevlar stuff--still is hot and uncomfortable when the temps edge past 110* F. Still, I wore the stuff 25 years ago in the desert when I got shot on duty. Even in 1981, the assailant admitted under questioning that he intentionally pointed the shotgun at my head due to the awareness of body armor being worn by cops. He connected, and so did I in response--just not permanently in either case.

The 9mm is a pretty tough bullet to stop with soft armor. There are other pistol calibers that are REAL hard to contain in soft body armor, and I'd rather not mention them on a public forum. One such caliber became known for this among the local Street Level Sleazoid Set, and a number of pistols in this caliber were recovered for a time from such persons with fair frequency. There was a move to ban the pistols and ammo in CA due to this urban legend, which thankfully died out. I am certain that the FN P-90/PDW pistols and their 5.7 x 28 ammo can zip right through soft body armor. It was designed to defeat such defenses. 22 LR lead boolits won't penetrate the vests I'm familiar with, but other rimfires......well, the Russian 5.45 x 18 PSM service pistol round might defeat soft armor, dunno for sure--not having tried it out myself.

One thing we did a lot of for the new deputies just prior to their Academy graduation was to shoot soft body armor with various weapons, usually wrapped around a played-out Igloo water jug. All of the Magnum revolver rounds except the 125 grain JHP 357 Magnum were easily contained, as were 9mm, 40 S&W, and 45 ACP. The caliber I mentioned above zinged through the front panel most of the time, often penetrated the back wall of the jug, and got caught in the rear panel or dropped to the ground after hitting the rear panel. The AK-47 and AR-15 FMJ's went through both panels without even straining themselves, often blowing the lid from the jug 1-3 feet in the air from the water column displacement. This demonstration had a pretty sobering effect on the new kids, unplugging at least a small section of their immortality myth. One of my partners kinda poured on the score during these demos, saying that "soft body armor does a real fine job of holding your guts together for the autopsy when hit by an AK-47". This was demonstrated succinctly in January 1997 when two of our deputies were ambush-murdered in Whitewater by an assailant with a 30 M-1 Carbine.

The trauma plates in my most recent vests were designed to retard blunt trauma like that described by a couple other posters in this thread. They work VERY well from the literature I've read on the subject. That said, the example given of the MT HP officer is the extreme of blunt trauma force application, and I'm not sure any armor issued to civilian officers would contain it. I used some "turtle shell" plates front and rear atop my soft armor when doing SWAT work in the 1980's, and it was alleged to be able to contain 223 and 308 FMJ. It weighed 35# per set, and made fast movement and halting more than inconvenient.

[StarMetal]

Al, from what I've read that 5.7 x 28 isn't so hot. That's what I got from the test he did, said it was dang fun and very accurate tho, lots of shots and no recoil. Great plinking round.

Joe