HP-38 and W231 are the same, which became like the other?

[357shooter]

So I found a great burn-rate chart at:
http://gsgroup.co.za/burnrates.html

Noticed these two powders show up on different lines (different burn rates) and assumed that's the way it used to be. Which one is in the correct position for the powder today? I'm guessing HP-38, but thought someone might know.

The way is shown online the W231 was a litlle faster than HP-38. Looking at some Lee loading data, the W231 looks like it was slower. Doesn't make sense.

Thanks

[35remington]

Neither.

HP38 and W231 were always the same thing. So one couldn't become like the other, because they were one and the same.

The different "ranking" on the burn rate charts is ocean foam. Sometimes you can't believe what you read, because such pronunciations are not taken in the proper context.

[357shooter]

Neither.

HP38 and W231 were always the same thing. So one couldn't become like the other, because they were one and the same.

The different "ranking" on the burn rate charts is ocean foam. Sometimes you can't believe what you read, because such pronunciations are not taken in the proper context.
Thanks. I figured that even in the current Lee manual the 2 powders have different loads, so it seemed like they were different at one time. Must have been the difference in who did the testing.

[tonyjones]

This may be similar to the situation with W296 and H110. Olin Chemical (I believe it is now St Marks Powder) manufactured both. They are the same powder. Lots manufactured for Winchester are W296 and lots manufactured for Hodgdon are H110. Other than normal lot to lot variations they are the same powder. The same situation could exist with W231 and
HP38. Can anyone out there confirm this?
Regards,
Tony

[felix]

Confirmed on the later lots. HP38 was made in Scotland for the first several lots. ... felix

[anachronism]

One more time, as plain as I can make it. The powders are currently made in the same factory, by the same people, on the same equipment, with the same ingredients, at the same time. Some of it goes into Hodgdon containers, some goes into Winchester containers. They are then shipped to the same distributor (Hodgdon), and sold. Anytime a component in a batch is changed, say the factory uses a different lot of solvent or whatever, everything from that change on gets a new lot number. 296 & H110 are the same powder, but marketed under different brand names. 231 & HP38 are the same powders, also marketed under different brand names. This goes on a lot in the propellant world.

[c3d4b2]

The way is shown online the W231 was a litlle faster than HP-38. Looking at some Lee loading data, the W231 looks like it was slower. Doesn't make sense.

Powders have been known to behave differently from lot to lot. The W231 and HP-38 situation is one of the examples my brother uses when stressing the need to start over working up loads when switching lots of powders. (You may have gotten a slow lot last time and a fast lot this time).

The different results between the two references is most likely the powder lots used in testing.

[Adam10mm]

To the canister trade, W231 and HP-38 are known as SMP #231. It is made by St Marks Powder Company in Florida. SMP #231 is identical to the powder that Hodgdon markets as HP-38 and Winchester markets as W231. Winchester is unique in that the same powder in their factory loads are sold to the handloading market.

The following powders are 100% identical in every ballistic aspect known and measurable:

H414 is W760 (canister trade is SMP #760)
W296 is H110 (canister trade is SMP # 296)
W231 is HP-38 (canister trade is SMP #231)

The old WAP is identical to Ramshot Silhouette. Wincheter ditched WAP in favor of bringing out Auto Comp (which I hate) but Ramshot is now distributing WAP under the trade name of Silhouette.

Win. Auto Comp is known to the canister trade as SMP #224

BLC(2) and H335 are the same as WC846 and WC844, but with less flash suppressant added.

I have confirmed this over the phone with the ballistic technicians at St Marks Powder and Western Powder companies. Hodgdon does not make one single smokeless powder. They only distribute. Western Powder and St Marks Powder both are actual manufacturers from scratch.

[Rocky Raab]

The other two matches are HS6=W540 and HS7=W571. Or were, as some types have been discontinued.

If you are creating a burn rate chart with one powder per line, you have to put one first, even if two are identical. (That's just one of the fatal flaws in that type of burn rate chart.)

[deltaenterprizes]

Also scot 453 is supposed to be the same as WW 452 AA

[pmeisel]

What about the two 4227s?

[Rocky Raab]

No, NONE of the similar numbered Hodgdon and IMR powders are identical. They can be used in the same application, but not necessarily at the same charge weights.

Think of them as fraternal twins, not identical.

[spqrzilla]

No, NONE of the similar numbered Hodgdon and IMR powders are identical. They can be used in the same application, but not necessarily at the same charge weights.

Think of them as fraternal twins, not identical.

Well, I would not even think of them as fraternal twins but otherwise I agree.



I have confirmed this over the phone with the ballistic technicians at St Marks Powder and Western Powder companies. Hodgdon does not make one single smokeless powder. They only distribute. Western Powder and St Marks Powder both are actual manufacturers from scratch.

Western Powder sells a lot of powders made by others, among which are General Dynamics (which owns manufacturing plants in Ottawa and St Marks Florida ) and ADI. St Marks is only a manufacturer and does not distribute to the retail market.

Hodgdon does currently own the manufacturing operation of its Pyrodex line. Now that Winchester no longer distributes powder ( but instead licensed the brand to Hodgdon - likewise Dupont IMR), I think these days that VV and Norma are the main powder lines whose brand and manufacturer are the same company.

[BFG9000]

Hodgdon = Winchester
HP38 = W231
H110 = W296
HS6 = W540 (discontinued)
HS7 (discontinued) = W571 (discontinued)
H414 = W760
Note: H335 is NOT W748.


Hodgdon = ADI
Trail Boss = AS-25BP
Clays = AS-30N
HP38 = AP-50N
International = AS-50N
Universal = AP-70N
H4227 = AR2205
H4198 = AR2207
H322 = AR2219
Benchmark = BM2 (Benchmark2), AR-2206 (discontinued)
H4895 = AR2206H
Varget = AR2208
H4350 = AR2209
H4831 = AR2213
H4831sc = AR2213sc
H1000 = AR2217
Retumbo = AR2225
H50BMG = AR2218


IMR = ADI
IMR 8208-XBR = AR2210-V02


Ramshot = Winchester
Silhouette = WAP (discontinued)


Alliant = Norma
RL15 = N203


Alliant = Alliant
Power Pistol = Bullseye 84 (non-canister)

[Adam10mm]

Western Powder sells a lot of powders made by others, among which are General Dynamics (which owns manufacturing plants in Ottawa and St Marks Florida ) and ADI. St Marks is only a manufacturer and does not distribute to the retail market.
Western Powder does in fact manufacture powder. They also distribute powder made by St Marks and foreign manufacturers such as IMR and ADI. Western Powder does not make powder for retail sales but does so for OEM licensed ammunition manufacturers.


Hodgdon does currently own the manufacturing operation of its Pyrodex line. Now that Winchester no longer distributes powder ( but instead licensed the brand to Hodgdon - likewise Dupont IMR), I think these days that VV and Norma are the main powder lines whose brand and manufacturer are the same company.
Pyrodex is not smokeless powder. That's why I specifically stated "smokeless powder" because they make Pyrodex powder which is non smokeless which is what is the discussion.

[spqrzilla]

freakshow10mm, which powders do you think Western manufactures themselves? The Blackhorn 209 ? I was under the impression that the Ramshot line is mostly St Marks these days, and the Accurate Arms line is ADI and St Marks.

[Adam10mm]

Again, Western Powder manufactures non-canister OEM only powders for OEM ammunition manufacturers only. They distribute other powders including the Ramshot brand and Accurate brand, both of which Western Powder does NOT manufacture. The Western Powder nomenclature isn't standard but marked to the individual ammunition manufacturer's preference; ie it's custom named.

Western Powder distributes the Accurate and Ramshot brands, both of which are NOT made by Western. Western does manufacture custom blends for OEM manuacturers. You cannot buy "Western made" powder unless you have an 06, 07, or 10 type FFL (those allowed to manufacture ammunition).