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Bman
08-07-2006, 09:56 PM
I was enjoying the worlds longest yard sale last weekend. One of my finds was a single round of .45 ACP. The headstamp is REM-UMC 18. I take it that this was made in 1918. It is a very interesting round in that it has a case cannelure and the bullet is staked in at three points 1/2 way between the cannelure and case mouth. It is in pretty good shape. Anyone here know anything about old cartridges as to value and rarity? I plan to keep it in my small box of neat things. Also there was a wee bit of dirt/grunge on it and I wiped it off but did not do any cleaning or polishing. does that sort of thing dramatically effect value like with old coins? So far my internet searches have been a bit frustrating.

Gunload Master
08-07-2006, 10:29 PM
Anyway of posting a picture?

Bman
08-07-2006, 10:32 PM
Yes but it will take a day or two.

StarMetal
08-07-2006, 10:59 PM
http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/history/45_Auto_Cartridge_History.htm

Ricochet
08-15-2006, 07:38 PM
On the discussion forum at http://accuratereloading.com/ there's a Cartridge Collecting discussion board.

Ricochet
08-15-2006, 07:40 PM
The UMC, BTW, stands for Union Metallic Cartridge. They later merged with Remington, accounting for the REM-UMC headstamp commonly seen. Remington also merged with the Peters Cartridge Company.

omgb
08-15-2006, 09:16 PM
I don't know about old but I did have an interesting 45 find one time. It was in Alaska back in 76. I was digging around some old ruins of a drege near the old ghost town of Ophir. Out in the water off the sunken back half of the drege was a large crate completely under water. having nothing in particular to do and dreaming of found treasure, I and my two buddies, got a rope around it and pulled it out. This was worse than you think. That water was freezing even in July. We cracked open the crate and found all sorts of GI cans of oil, cleaner, what must have been cleaning rods and bandages. There were also a number of ammo crates. These were moulded up real good from being under water but they were intact. We pryed one open and found 45 ammo, sealed in a lead/tin type wrapper. Inside of the wrapper was little cardborad boxes filled with steel-cased 45 ammo. Most of it was dated 1943 and 44. When we got back to the site (Tatalina AFS ) we dragged out a guy's 45 and tried a few. Most still fired, about the same number failed as do with some of the Russian 7.64x54R CZ ammo. We thought we'd found a real gold mine. You know, long lost Govt. ammo from when the site was first built in early 53 or maybe even from WWII itself. We were dang pleased with ourselves. It wasn't until a few guys over in McGrath heard of our find that we found out the truth. This was milsurp that one of the Indians from Takatna was storing out on the dredge befor emoving it to his line shack. (The Iditarod runs right through the area) He had placed it there two years earlier after buying it in Anchorage from a milsurp dealer. It must have slid off the stern when more of the dredge collapsed during the thaw. So it really couln't have been under water more than a few months at most. Any way, it fired, mostly.

mhb
08-16-2006, 02:26 PM
About two years ago, I acquired a coffee can with about 25 rounds of WW1-issue .45 ammo in it - the ammo was in good shape, visually, so I decided to shoot it (if possible) - there were samples of PCC - 18 (Peters, 1918), USCCO - 17 (United States Cartridge Co. 1917) and WRA - 18 (Winchester 1918). 23 of the 25 rounds fired on the first try - the other two required another strike. The USSCO ammo (a complete magazine) hung-fire to the extent of a distinct click-bang, but functioned and re-loaded the pistol. Examination of the fired cases was interesting - the US cases looked like lace doilies! In recent years I have also fired samples of .30-06 dated 1908 and 1912, and Krag ammo from 1907 - the lesson to be drawn is: never assume old ammunition won't fire (particularly if it is U.S. military issue).
mhb - Mike

StarMetal
08-16-2006, 04:06 PM
Mike,

I hope you cleaned your guns with corrosive cleaning bore cleaner after that, I'm sure you did.

I had a whole cigar box full of 303 British that went back to the turn of the century around 1900. They were round nose with the cupro-nickle jacket, and loaded with cordite of course. When I pulled a couple of them apart the unjacketed part of the base of the bullet had DA stamped with raised letters in all the lead cores. I think they were the MK VII cartridges. All the ones I fired, worked. I had found one of those 45 acp's marked USCCO and it fired the first time. Still have the casing. Seems the early 45acps had deep cannelures on the case.

Joe

nighthunter
08-16-2006, 04:39 PM
Interesting discussion about old cartridges ... I have an old 44-40 loaded with a wooden bullet that seems to be filled with shot. Any takers on telling me what I have here?
Nighthunter

45 2.1
08-16-2006, 07:25 PM
Interesting discussion about old cartridges ... I have an old 44-40 loaded with a wooden bullet that seems to be filled with shot. Any takers on telling me what I have here?
Nighthunter

A shot cartridge, probably for the Marbles "Game Getter".

floodgate
08-16-2006, 07:28 PM
Joe:

The "DA" MAY indicate manufacture by the Canadian Govt's Dominion Arsenal; what was the headstamp on the case?

Nighthunter:

Those "wooden bullet" shot loads were fairly common in the early 1900s in the larger repeating rifle calibers, and were designed to feed through the magazine. Nice specimen to have!

floodgate

nighthunter
08-16-2006, 07:59 PM
Floodgate ... I figured that was what it is , I got it from my father who is 79 years old. He has had it since he was a kid. He also has a bunch of old pinfire rounds and some stuff he says is Egyptian from the early 1900's. Someday I'll have to figure out what it all is but its not time yet if you know what I mean.
Nighthunter

P.S. ... LMAO ... Someday my son will have to figure out what the hell is half the stuff I have.

floodgate
08-17-2006, 12:18 AM
45 2.1:

No, the "Game Getter" was, I believe, based on the .44-40 WCF case (late models were chambered for the .410).

floodgate

mhb
08-17-2006, 01:29 PM
Joe:
All of the earlier marks of .303 ammunition had round-nosed bullets - up to and including the Mk VI - the Mk VII with pointed bullet was adopted in 1910, so the old ammo you had was evidently Mk VI or earlier.
mhb - Mike

45 2.1
08-17-2006, 01:34 PM
45 2.1:

No, the "Game Getter" was, I believe, based on the .44-40 WCF case (late models were chambered for the .410).

floodgate

So, tell me the difference between "old 44-40 loaded with a wooden bullet that seems to be filled with shot" and what you said. Gamegetters were smooth bore in the 44 barrel if I remember correctly.

StarMetal
08-17-2006, 01:43 PM
Fellows, I'll have to look at one of the 303's again. I might very well be a Mk V or VI, it definately is a round nose.

I'll go check it now and report back.

Joe

StarMetal
08-17-2006, 01:48 PM
Okay checked it again. It's a Mk VI as the headstamp has a VI a DA then a circle with what looks like the letter V inside it and a date of 09.

Boy that's an old bugger.

Joe

floodgate
08-17-2006, 05:05 PM
45 2.1:

My goof; I had scrolled back up to the openng post where the .45 ACP was mentioned. Yes, the Game Getter WAS based on the .44&40 case. Sorry 'bout that!

And yes, the lower barrel WAS smoothbore, and the Fed issued a special permit to allow owners to keep them, as they technically fell under the NFA (barrel under 18", overall under 26").

Doug

45 2.1
08-17-2006, 06:15 PM
And yes, the lower barrel WAS smoothbore, and the Fed issued a special permit to allow owners to keep them, as they technically fell under the NFA (barrel under 18", overall under 26").Doug

I actually got to see one displayed at a collectors show a few years ago. Cased with wire stock, papered and had a cartridge display showing the variations of cartridges it used manufactured during the time period it was used. It was a very nice setup.

mike in co
08-17-2006, 08:57 PM
some where around here i have a small collection of 1917 45acp ammo.......