best hardener

[lastborn]

Ok I am new and want to keep this simple. I have clean soft lead that checks .088 on my LEE tester. I want to get to around 16 BHN . I can't find a source for wheel weights. Will someone please tell me Exactly what I can put in 10 lbs of lead and water quench to get to 16 BHN please? I have some 50/50 bar solder also. This is for 45 colt 1894 marlin and 45/70 1895 guide gun.
thanks

[snuffy]

What makes you think you need to be @ 16 BHN? IMHO you don't!

That said, the tin in the solder will not harden the lead much, only 3-4 BHN. What you need is some antimony. That's found in type lead, like linotype. That's getting hard to to find these days because the old printing presses are long gone. You CAN buy linotype metal from foundries, or get it from a sponsor here on this sight;

http://www.rotometals.com/product-p/linotypealloy.htm

Another source of antimony is magnum shot for loading shotshells. Neither is cheap, BUT both will allow you to heat treat the bullets, or drop them in cold water straight from the mold,(quenching).

[357maximum]

How much pure lead do you have?

Adding 2 parts pure lead (10lbs) to 1 part wheelweight(5lb) and then waterdropping will get you real close to your 16BHN number that you want. You may be able to trade some pure for ww or you could just buy some ww ingots from a member in the swapping area or from one of the sponsors at the top of this page that sells ingots of what you seek.

I am sure there is a member here that would love pure lead in exchange for some of their wheelweight alloy.

[Bullshop]

SHOT, chilled or magnum
BIC/BS

[cbrick]

Roto Metals Super Hard alloy at 30% antimony. Yes, blend it, do not use it straight.

Roto Metals Super Hard (http://www.rotometals.com/product-p/30_antimony_70_lead.htm)

Plus it's on sale right now.
Plus they are a sponsor of this forum.
Plus they are right nice folks to do business with.

Rick

[44man]

Roto Metals Super Hard alloy at 30% antimony. Yes, blend it, do not use it straight.

Roto Metals Super Hard (http://www.rotometals.com/product-p/30_antimony_70_lead.htm)

Plus it's on sale right now.
Plus they are a sponsor of this forum.
Plus they are right nice folks to do business with.

Rick
Yes, yes, yes, they have all you need.

[lastborn]

Ok. at what ratio ? How many ounces to 10 lbs of lead?
What BHN do I need to be at hunting whitetail & black bear, 45/70 with 400 or 425 gr LFN at 1700 fps ?
thanks

[felix]

Arsenic is the ultimate hardener. Does a double whammy with antimony. Must have an alloy with it already supplied. If not using shot, ask for a soldier made something like 5 percent arsenic with 95 percent tin. Thataway you won't ever overshoot the amount of arsenic when doing an augmentation. .The smell of garlic when melting is trouble, so keep that in mind. ... felix

[44man]

Ok. at what ratio ? How many ounces to 10 lbs of lead?
What BHN do I need to be at hunting whitetail & black bear, 45/70 with 400 or 425 gr LFN at 1700 fps ?
thanks
You do not want too hard at that velocity or you just punch a small hole. You NEED some expansion. For a flat nose I would use 50-50 WW's and pure and for a hollow point I would use 25% pure and 75% WW's. Water dropped will give you 20 and 22 BHN for accuracy but still have ductile boolits.
I don't have my books here so other fellas need to work up an alloy for you.
I would not go much softer or you will lose a ton of meat.
If you lower the velocity, you can use soft lead. Take it to BP velocities and 30 to 1 pure and tin is deadly.

[sagacious]

Lastborn,
Here are some recipes:
152 ozs (9.5lbs) of pure lead
1lb 50/50 solder
8ozs antimony
Makes 11lbs of Lyman #2 alloy, with a nominal BHN around 15.

9lbs ww's
1lb 50/50 solder
Makes 10lbs Lyman #2

5lbs pure lead
4lbs linotype
1lb 50/50 solder
Makes 10lbs Lyman #2.

Asking for "Exactly" BHN16 is unrealistic. The as-cast hardness on all these alloys can only be nominally given as BHN15, as alloy variations and casting technique/conditions may affect the hardness. Good luck.

[lastborn]

This is the kind of info I was looking for. I got some wheel weight ingots off the swap and sell page so now I have something to work with. I appreciate all the good info and welcome more. While I'm at it and ya'll are on a role, anyone care to recommend a good 400 to 450 gr. gas check lfn 45/70 ?
Thanks

[63 Shiloh]

Hey lastborn,

I use a RCBS 458-405-Flat Nose Gas Checked mold that weighs in at 415gn with my alloy.

I size it to .459" and lube with BAC, checks are Hornady.

Absolutely a 'Hammer' in my Marlin XLR 45/70. I went for max velocity at first, quickly realized that pushing this boolit just over 2000fps was not really fun after a few shots.

Lowered my charge to a more sedate 1500fps-1650fps, accurate and knocks 200lb boars on their bum quick smart!

Mike

[44man]

Great info from the guys! [smilie=s:
The 45-70 can be a big problem with cast if all you look for is velocity. Softer boolits need a gas check and if you shoot PB the boolit needs to be too hard for hunting. But as velocity drops you can shoot PB with softer lead.
It is a great caliber but needs worked with a lot for hunting. It is so good that around 1100 fps with a soft lead, heavy boolit will knock any animal off it's cork. As you get around 1300-1350 fps, the gas check helps and as you go faster, the lead needs to be harder until you reach the point where you poke animals with a sharp stick.
I have a huge problem with my 45-70 revolver because the accuracy point is 1632 fps and I need HARD but it does zip on deer. Deer are lost or go 200 yards so I used Babore's 50-50, 420 gr hollow point GC on the last one. Worked but I lost almost the whole off shoulder. This same boolit design without a gas check sprays boolits and with a gas check I get a flier with every group but not enough to hurt hunting.
I was so disgusted one season I used the Hornady 300 gr and it worked like a champ. I am still learning about the gun. Jack these velocities up in a rifle and your problems increase.
The caliber does not need to be shot fast but there is still velocity requirements for each boolit to be accurate. Once you find accuracy, then you need to work on the alloy for good affect on game without losing too much accuracy.
I know, it is straight jacket time! :bigsmyl2:
Do not expect a hard, large meplat boolit to work if shot too fast. I am convinced the pressure wave from the nose moves tissue out of the way into a secondary wound channel that will collapse without damage, leaving just a boolit size hole. Slow this boolit to around 1300 fps and it destroys internals but if accuracy runs away, it is hard to hit with.
Here are groups I get with hard boolits at 50 yards but they just will not kill deer fast.
Then a deer shot with a boolit too soft for my velocity.

[44man]

I have no trouble dumping deer fast with hard boolits in the .44, .45 or .475 but the 45-70 has been the very hardest one to work with as far as the alloy for hunting. It is just too fast for hard lead.
If you insist on 1700 to 1800 fps, your work is just starting because soft lead is not accurate.
The hardest thing I work with is to maintain accuracy yet have a cast boolit kill fast. These two things are very hard to put together with a fast shooting gun.
A two part boolit with a soft nose and hard drive bands would solve it.
Don't give up and the easiest way to go is to reduce velocity without getting groups so large you can't hit deer.
Many times going to a soft, 500 gr boolit, shot slow from the 45-70 is the best shot. Drift away from velocity and muzzle energy because neither kills.