303/30 caliber ?

[Canuck Bob]

I'm starting to get serious about casting as my rifle delivery date gets closer.

For 30 cal bullets (165-180 gr) in the 2000-2500 fps range what boolit would be required? alloy/bhn? gas check? etc.?

For cheaper plain based boolits shooting what's a reasonable limit for velocity? 165 gr. spitzer WW alloy. Max safe velocity regarding leading?

I've been reading a lot of Veral's stuff at LBT. Initially I'm going to avoid bore ride bullets and will order a plain bevel base 165 grain spitzer from him once the rifles been slugged for bore and throat. I'll use this bullet as cast in ww alloy. I'll use his soft blue lube. This explains one question.

The other question is to help me to consider if I can utilize the full range of velocity available with a 303 Brit. I'm wondering whats involved in getting accurate high power loads without leading or other problems.

[Lead Fred]

In your fps range, you will need gas checks, Linotype, & White label Carnduba Red lube.

I use these things and have seen no leading

1800 is pushing plain base in my books.

[Al_sway]

If you really want to get to the +2000 fps range you will have to work hard at good alloys, and lube and loads. I am not sure it is really necessary.
The Lyman classic bullet for the .303 - (I think it is 311290) is a good heavy weight and you should be able to get about 2000 fps without too many problems. Your alloy could be soft enough to expand and for most hunting a 200+ grain bullet will do the job. I load 165 grain cast to 1700 fps in my .30-30 and they take deer down very nicely.
As for the other load, you need to decide what velocity range you want. Close to sub-sonic or faster. But in any case, your alloy doesn't need to be fancy but the 1600 fps load will probably need a gas check, while a 1200 fps probably doesn't. Any of the Lee designs will work.

[JeffinNZ]

BOB: My Mk VII duplicate load for .303 is a CBE 316 175 over 47gr H4350 for 2370fps. 2 MOA when I do my bit. Alloy is clip on WW heat treated. Bullet is sized .3165 and I get ZERO leading.

[357maximum]

A real short synopsis of how I get accurate HV loads:

1. Know what you gun looks like on the inside (dimensions, smoothness, etc) enter pound slug and bore slug into the search function in the top 1/3 of this page.....If your bore is not as smooth as it needs to be see also firelapping.

2. Get a gaschecked boolit design that will fit and fill the dimensions YOU NOW KNOW....... we have some custom vendors here that excel at making us boolit designs that "FIT" and understand what it takes to make our toys tick ...seek their services and advice. Bruce (BABore) at BRP Products as well as the other vendors can help you out here. They may have the design you need or can point you to who does.

3. Use an alloy that is tough...Notice I did not say hard. My normal HV cast alloy is a blend of 50%Wheelwights and 50% pure lead that I waterdrop right from the mould. When I really need to get mean I add about 5% of nickel bearing railroad babbit to the above mix. These waterdropped alloys I listed take at least 2 weeks to "cure" so do not shoot them before they ripen.

4. Use a good quality lube such as LBT SOFT BLUE, WHite Label lubes BAC, or Carnauba Red. IF/When you are ready to make your own lubes there is a whole area devoted to recipes....I would recommend the Lithium based grease lubes, but others can work also, best to save the lube lab until you find success with a known lube.

5. Use a slow case filling powder for what you are doing. H4350, H414, H-Hybrid 100V have worked real well for me in the similar 7.65X53 case to your 303. Think of these slow powders as consumable filler if that helps.

6. Make quality blemish free projectiles that are cast consistantly.

7. Load consistantly

8. Be consistent on everything you do and keep good notes.

9. If you stumble and do not know why ask your detailed question on this forum and follow the advice that will follow.



Some of this may be redundant to what you have read, but I needed to keep it in order in my head as I typed it.

[Canuck Bob]

BOB: My Mk VII duplicate load for .303 is a CBE 316 175 over 47gr H4350 for 2370fps. 2 MOA when I do my bit. Alloy is clip on WW heat treated. Bullet is sized .3165 and I get ZERO leading.

Thanks to everyone.

Yes I'm working on a MK VII load in cast. Jeff, I know you like the CBE molds a great deal. Can you describe that CBE 316 175 for me, please?

Is it an accurate representation of the MK VII bullet?

Boreride?

Are all CBE molds brass?

As far as the 165 PB Spitzer plinker load I think 1400 fps will be tops. It will be an iron sight 100 yard max plinker. My goal is still moa 3 shot groups though. Hunting is not an issue as I am working up a LBT sledge hammer for my 444 Marlin. That is my exclusive hunting rifle.

The appeal of the plinking load was to start casting and shooting cheap with minimal gear and easy sourced lead. Oddly, cheap includes a custom mold designed and built to accurate barrel and chamber slugs by one of the industries experts. I don't want to become a mold collector, a Lee-mentor, a Lyman-lapper or ship firearm supplies over international borders for warranty.

[Canuck Bob]

Thanks 357,

Exactly what I need a proven recipe. I am going with LBT for design and molds, Veral's lube, and I will practice percision loading as I've read here. I am not new to handloading but new to casting.

The major thing I was planning different is smaller than full case loads. Would you elaborate a bit on the slow burning full case over the faster small charges?

Could you elaborate a bit on the siver bearing babbit a little? Veral recommends a little silver bearing solder once and awhile.

[303Guy]

Canuck Bob, if you get a 30cal mold you could use the same casting for the 303Brit if'n you were to paper patch it. That would give you full power load capability for the Brit.

Might I ask why you want to avoid bore-ride designs? A cast boolit should not be seated below the neck base unless it is paper patched. (You don't want to patch for a plinking load - too much work!)

Anyway, it seems a 303 Brit will do well if not better with a heavy boolit in the 200gr range. Mine seem to like 245grainers but these do not fit the magazine so I have settled for 208gr hollow nose which does fit the magazine.

[Canuck Bob]

303Guy,

Veral at LBT is against them generally. He recommended that for a new shooter of CB's that good accuracy and solid performance were easier if they were not used. In a nutshell the necessity of accurate fit in the nose makes them fussier. His pet peeve is the habit of the bullet pulling when removing an unfired round from the chamber. Tonights research does indicate many experienced shooters use them to good effect. Just read a thread from Buckshot and he sure recommended them.

I'm hoping my Ruger chamber will have a long throat. I owned a 375 H&H Ruger Tropical years ago. The throat was very long. I'm hoping they cut these Ruger 303's the same. The nice thing about single shots is the freedom from OAL restrictions and no crimp needed for paper patch.

Paper patch is an option but I will save that for the forum there. Veral recommends paper patch as well and advocates a Glue On Patch system (GOP) using computer labels. He has a forum on Greybeards discussing it there. If you have not read it I know you'll find it informative at the least.

The plinker design will be sized to keep the bullet in the neck with the ogive touching the rifling. I asked here and a number of shooters say they have no problem with deep seated bullets. It does concern me a bit that bases might be deep in the case for 200+ gr bullets.

[303Guy]

Thank you, Canuck Bob. That makes a lot of sense. Paper patching is a little bit more forgiving of bore-ride section fit as the paper is compressable. I'm busy loading up Veral's forum right now.:drinks:

[Bret4207]

Why would you want a bevel base spitzer for a plinker? A BB in a handgun if one thing, in a rifle another, and a spitzer demands extremely precise alignment. For a PB plinker I'd be more inclined towards a FB FN style.

Veral cuts good moulds and has a lot of knowledge, but not everything he sells works for everyone. There are several ways to get what you want.

2-2500 fps? Try getting good repeatable accuracy and no fouling problems at 17-1800 before you jump to 2500! That's masters area.

[357maximum]

Thanks 357,

Exactly what I need a proven recipe. I am going with LBT for design and molds, Veral's lube, and I will practice percision loading as I've read here. I am not new to handloading but new to casting.I started peering over my Dad's bench in the mid 1970's....I still learn something everyday when it comes to our hobby.

The major thing I was planning different is smaller than full case loads. Would you elaborate a bit on the slow burning full case over the faster small charges?I use slow burning casefull loads when I want to go fast. It gives you a nice gentle push up to speed which deforms the boolit slowly and gently into the rifling, which makes a more accurate HV round. The slow powder also acts as a temporary gas check/filler as things are getting up to speed and pressure. I cannot prove it but I believe the top portion of the powder column is actually being force up into the neck a bit as the charge ignites which protects the base of the boolit and prevents high pressure gasses from reaching the boolit in the critical moments of liftoff......all I know is that it works.

As far as fast burning powders in rifles I use them for plinkers only. I like powders such as unique, 700x, bullseye for this as I believe you get a "leafblower' effect and I get alot less vertical dispersion due to all the powder igniting in a "cloud"....When I go to 2400 powder it shows position sensitivity I do not like. As far as 30 plinkers are concerned I do not like bevel based boolits one bit. I like a nice flat base and I use a soft alloy which seals things up at low pressure. Right now I have several 30 plinker test moulds made by BaBore@ BRP products. These moulds are based on a proven design by 45 2.1 and this design is wonderful with soft alloys in a low velocity shotgun powder plinker. Contacting Bruce (BaBore) here on the forum could get you in on this excellent design as I do not believe it is catalouged yet.

Going fast requires a tough/mallable alloy and going slow generally needs a soft/mallable alloy, both uses require the appropriate ignition speeds to accomplish the end game which is teeny tiny groups...........as an added bonus the mallable alloys are what I want when my boolit finds it's mark on the side of a big brown critter.

Could you elaborate a bit on the siver bearing babbit a little? Veral recommends a little silver bearing solder once and awhile.I use the NICKEL BEARING railroad babbit when I need a little more toughness in an alloy. Adding 5% to my WD'ed 50/50 alloy is all it takes. Right now I use it in a 308W/30/06/ 7X57A.I, 7.65X53 and a 223rem as it made things more accurate at J-word speeds. I am not a metalurgist all I know is that the tiny % of added tin/antimony/nickel/copper I get from the railroad bearing babbit works for what I need to do with it and still allows the boolit to mushroom when it hits flesh.

My 35 remington and 35 whelen loads do not require the added babbit even at their very respectful upper end J-word speeds. Someone alot more edumacated than I would have to explain the WHY in that one.

[Canuck Bob]

Why would you want a bevel base spitzer for a plinker? A BB in a handgun if one thing, in a rifle another, and a spitzer demands extremely precise alignment. For a PB plinker I'd be more inclined towards a FB FN style.

Veral cuts good moulds and has a lot of knowledge, but not everything he sells works for everyone. There are several ways to get what you want.

2-2500 fps? Try getting good repeatable accuracy and no fouling problems at 17-1800 before you jump to 2500! That's masters area.

Again folowing Veral's advice on the base, ease of loading. I plan to load for one rifle and am considering as a second research project using a Lee push through sizer and gas checks. The cost is certainly reasonable and for rifle shooting the cost of gas checks are reasonable.

If I made my plinker with a gc then I could increase my load options. I see a flaw now in my original plan. By purchasing an expensive PB bullet mold I am forced to buy a second mold to do any fun experiments up the velocity ladder.

Could you guys elaborate on the spitzer comments. I thought they would be more accurate than FN. I'm planning the blunt .6 ogive shape.

[Char-Gar]

Bob--- Honestyi has allways been my strong suit and also my great failing. Just a couple of thought to a person new to casting.

1. Learn to walk before you run. Pushing cast bullets 2 to 2.5 K fps can be done, but it is much, much harder to do that you think. Learn the ropes with GC cast bullets in the 1.5 to 1.8 K fps area and when you have that down pat, then move up. Starting at the top end is a formula for frustration.

2. Seems like you have swallowed LBT hook pretty well...Lots of good stuff, but a fair share of opinion passed off as fact as well. Some of it doesn't stand up. When you have followed the LBT doctrine lock step and hit the wall, come on back.

3. Avoid bevel based cast bullets like the plague. There is nothing they can do that a plain base bullet can't do better.

4. When you push cast bullet without a gas check must pass 1.4K fps, you will not find joy.

I wish you sucess and fun in shooting cast bullets. It is the post-graduate level of handloading.

[303Guy]

Avoid bevel based cast bullets like the plague. There is nothing they can do that a plain base bullet can't do better.Would you folks care to elaborate on this one? I'm into bevel base (small bevel) simply to avoid boolit base feathering. It does work but makes it harder to fold the base of my paper patches. I've no idea what effect it has on accuracy as yet. Seemed to be OK.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/untitled-5.jpghttp://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-596F.jpg

[Canuck Bob]

Chargar,

Thanks a great deal. I always prefer a guy who stands up and tells the truth as he see it.

Actually this thread is a way to verify or get educated on alternate methods and philosophies from LBT. There is no question Veral says the FB is the most accurate and even recommends modifying sizers to get a nice true bullet base.

[Bret4207]

Would you folks care to elaborate on this one? I'm into bevel base (small bevel) simply to avoid boolit base feathering. It does work but makes it harder to fold the base of my paper patches. I've no idea what effect it has on accuracy as yet. Seemed to be OK.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/untitled-5.jpghttp://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-596F.jpg

The concern with the BB is not really relevant with the PP. That paper jacket makes a lot of difference.

[Bret4207]

Again folowing Veral's advice on the base, ease of loading. I plan to load for one rifle and am considering as a second research project using a Lee push through sizer and gas checks. The cost is certainly reasonable and for rifle shooting the cost of gas checks are reasonable.

If I made my plinker with a gc then I could increase my load options. I see a flaw now in my original plan. By purchasing an expensive PB bullet mold I am forced to buy a second mold to do any fun experiments up the velocity ladder.

Could you guys elaborate on the spitzer comments. I thought they would be more accurate than FN. I'm planning the blunt .6 ogive shape.

Spitzers CAN be as accurate as a FN or RN. But it requires a lot more finesse in getting everything lined up perfectly. Plus, the center of gravity is thrown way forward with a spitzer and any misalignment seems to magnify the CG issue and results in wild shooter. My personal theory is that the spitzer sort of get's bent if it's not perfectly aligned. Who knows? What I do know is that a spitzer won't be as EASY to get good shooting from in cast, especially at higher speeds where everything is magnified.

The only time spitzers are truly more accurate is at longer ranges and higher speeds, same with boat tails. At 100 yards and 15-1800fps you'll never see the benefit.

I think Chargar hit the nail on the head. Veral has some very strong opinions, many which I agree with, some which I don't have as much faith in. He's in business to feed himself and pay his bills. He'll give you what you want within reason, but if you ask for something that is your pet idea he'll still cut it even if he isn't sold on the idea. The customer is always right, right?

Were it me looking for a plinker, I'd be using a proven FB/FN design and if you wan to reguarly shoot above 1500 fps then it'd be a GC design. Some PB designs work great, others just suck swamp water. You may find it much easy to get good grouping with PB at speeds in the 1200fps area.

[leadman]

I have had the best sucess in my 30 caliber guns with an old Lyman 311041 at 175grs. Veral can cut a design similar if you want it in a larger diameter. This can be used without a gas check for your plinkers. This was originally designed for 30-30 lever guns I am told but works well in every 30 cal. I have used it in. Largest my mold drops is .311".

In my old Savage 110, 30-06, 19grs of SR4759 is doing great with this. Shot several groups Wednesday between 1" to 2'' at 200 yards off the bench.
My original 1903a3 with iron sights averages about 3" off the bench at 200 yards, same load, different overall length than the Savage.
My Contender carbine with tapered 21" barrel shoots 1" to 1 !/2" at 100 yards in a 30-30 slightly faster than factory jacketed velocity. This gun weighs just over #5.

[Char-Gar]

303man.... My comment of BB bullets is not directed to paper patched bullets. I have zero experienced with PP and so anything I would say about that subject would most likely be of little or no value.

[303Guy]

The concern with the BB is not really relevant with the PP. I realize there are differences but I can't help thinking there are more similarities than differences. A gas check would make more difference I should think. I was thinking that problems with BB and plain cast GG would be similar to paper patched boolits. They're both cast and often come out the same molds and comprise the same alloys. What I was looking for are the problems encountered with BB plain cast so's I can keep them in mild for my paper patching. I also intend shooting plain cast with a bevel base and I'm aiming for 2000fps with them which will be pushing the envelope.

[Bret4207]

From what I've seen the PP makes an enormous difference in performance. I'm not sure you can assume the two (PP or no PP) are going to react anything alike. There are guys here shooting really fast with soft alloys that they PP. Far faster than I've seen easily done with just a GC. And just as a boat tail works fine on a jacketed bullet but is a disaster on lead, a BB with PP is a whole different animal with an unprotected alloy. I don't know exactly why a BB seems to give problems, but IME they do. I always put it down to irregularities in the shape of the base, but who knows. I'm thinking the PP will negate most of those issues.

I would spend some time picking the brains of the guys having success in the PP section. They seem to have a lot of the theory and practice figured out.