7x57 & RCBS 28-168-FN for hunting?

[the_ursus]

Ok, so I have a Ruger 77 (tang safety) in 7x57 1/9" twist (I think) and a RCBS 168 flat nose (28-168-FN) mold. The rifle has a really long throat so I plan on seated the bullets shallow in the case neck. I'd like to come up with a load that will kill efficiently and do minimal meat damage on deer (in that order).

I'm thinking around 2000+ so would H4350 be a good start?
Should I cast straight WW water dropped or air cooled?

This rifle is so accurate with Hornady 175RN (3/8"@100) that I can't believe I'm wanting to try something else but I just like to tinker with casting too much.

Any advise from those who hunt with skinny cast bullets would be appreciated.

Thanks!

[MtGun44]

Probably work just fine at about 1700-1800, too.

Gonna poke a hole KLEEN thru any deer in any direction, I'd bet.

I sent handloaded Horn RN 175s at 2400 fps with a friend going to Africa with her Ruger
7x57. Killed all the plains game DRT one shot. All the .338 Winmag guys were blasting
chunks off and losing animals. Only recovered three bullets, perfect textbook mushrooms.

I used MY Ruger 7x57 with 160 Nosler partitions at 2650 to take a number of nice
heads, one shot each. Biggest was a kudu, think tall slab sided elk with really
cool spiral horns.

Bill

[the_ursus]

Good to know, Bill! Just got back from the range and tried a few loads of 11 grains Unique for kicks. I was mainly concerned with key-holing since it was such a light charge but they seemed to fly alright yielding roughly 1.5" at 50yds. Anyway, I plan on putting some serious powder behind these bullets soon!

[Bret4207]

I have that mould and have used it in my ancient 93 Mauser, a wonderful old girl complete with unfinished Bishop stock and ratty barrel. The issue with using any thing smaller than 30 cal is frontal section, there just isn't a lot of area there to do the damage we need. Now that's not saying It can't be done. There are lots of guys hunting successfully with RN 30 cal designs I think are lacking in anything I'd want to hunt with. So my suggestion would be to treat this sort of like hunting with a 45 cal or smaller round ball muzzle loader- shot placement is critical. I would tend to aim so as to either hit the central nervous system (yes, a head shot, I'm not a rack hunter) or to break the shoulders at the big joint near the spine. With both shoulders broken and perhaps the spine severed death will be quick and the deer isn't going anywhere. You can also consider the breaking the first "real" joint down lower, but trying to break both it tricky. Study up on anatomy and decide what you think is best. I'm sure popping the heart will work too, but I would avoid a lung shot.

You may find you can drive the boolit fast enough to get some mushrooming. This is good, but I haven't found it to be dependable in anything as hard as WW alloy at the speeds I've hit, mostly in the 1800 fps area. Hollow Pointing is another option and worth looking into.

That being said, I've seen guys take deer with cast in 6.5x55, so it can be done.

[the_ursus]

So maybe 50/50 (pure-WW) and air cooled would be better. I may just have to set up a stack of wet newspaper at the range and do some experimenting.

[Bad Water Bill]

If my memory is still working just a little bit I think there was a Gentleman by the name of Bell that used a 7-57 to kill MANY elephants.

I have a Savage 99 in 22 Hi Power that fed an old logger using hand loaded PBs for many years. One shot one deer.

Shot placement is all important.

[Hardcast416taylor]

Indeed, Mr Bell was a real terror with old "tembo" with the 7 mauser and 175 gr. (?) mil. full patch bullets for brain shots. Admitedly he used other calibers for his elephant shooting, but he got the most press for using the 7mm.Robert

[303Guy]

This might give some idea of what hollow nosing can do and how hard or soft one needs to go.

Not sure what alloy this is but it's fairly soft.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-757F.jpg

208gr hollow nose 303 Brit at not too fast a speed.

Much slower.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-687F.jpg

It seems to be the holow nose that does the trick but might over expand a faster/softer boolit. It is possible to harden just the base area of the boolit to limit expansion.

Soft, fine sand testing - again not too fast.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-610F.jpghttp://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-622F.jpg

If the boolit breaks up in sand it's too fast or too soft or too brittle. The 'inside-out' ones were retaining 98-99% weight.

[JDL]

Von Gruff from New Zealand has been taking a lot of goats with his 7x57 using Lyman 287641 and casting it with a soft nose. IIRC, he's using H-4350 pushing it to 2400 fps. The RCBS boolit treated the same way should work identical.
JDL

[Von Gruff]

This is the expansion from that softnosed Lyman 287641 at 2400fps. 100% weight retention.

http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv39/VonGruff/006.jpg

Von Gruff.

[Marlin Junky]

This is the expansion from that softnosed Lyman 287641 at 2400fps. 100% weight retention.

http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv39/VonGruff/006.jpg

Von Gruff.

Tell us more about this load, at what range you stopped the boolit and with what medium.

Thanks,
MJ

[82nd airborne]

Theres no delicious meet right behind the shoulder, so not to worry about meat damage

[Wayne Smith]

This is the expansion from that softnosed Lyman 287641 at 2400fps. 100% weight retention.

http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv39/VonGruff/006.jpg

Von Gruff.

Alloy?

[MtGun44]

I have never done the soft nosed casting trick, but it sounds great. Another really likely
solution is HPing the mold.

Check with Eric at hollowpoint mold services - EXCELLENT workmanship and quick turnaround.

Bill

[303Guy]

I've always thought there was nothing wrong with the 7x57 Mauser. Now I'm convinced! 2400fps for a GG boolit is not too shabby and a hold-together like that is most impressive. That's got to work!

Apparently, it's the tin in the alloy that makes it tough and ductile like that.

[Von Gruff]

Tell us more about this load, at what range you stopped the boolit and with what medium.

Thanks,
MJ

The load is 39gn H4350 (ADI2209) at 2415fps for 5 into 1 1/4 - 1 1/2 in at 100yds. Have not stopped one in an animal to date and the recovered exsample came from the back stop to my target. This is a dirt-clay bank that I have put many thousands of bullets into and has a path about 2 ft wide by 3ft deep into the bank that has been softened by the path of the bullets. Have tracked a bullet from the front of goat to exit in hams and am confident enough that I would use it on a big wet west coast wapiti should the chance arrise to take one.

Open sight zeroed at 150 for 3.3in down at 200yds and down 9 at 250 where it still has 1740fps

Alloy is lino base with 65gn of 50/50 ww/pb for the nose.

Use the remelted two part method in that I cast up enough 50/50 bullets then cut the nose off to put asside for later when I put it back into the mould and fill with lino, placing the mould back into the pot to remelt the two parts together.
All work up loads are done with straight lino as the softnosed hunting bullets shoot to same poi at same vel as the straight lino. I did find accuracy was a little better using a TCBK wool wad over the charge.

Von Gruff

[Bret4207]

Lets remember that Bell took brain shots and 2400 fps is into masters territory. My hat is off to Von Gruff, but not everyone is going to be able to get their rifle to do that or get softnosing to work right. When you get up into the 2200+ area even WW will expand like a Remington Corelockt IF you hit the right area. Heavy muscle will come close to getting a boolit to react like it does in wet paper, but it's not the same. The faster you go the more the tendency to make HARD boolits is. You don't need HARD, you need TOUGH, DUCTILE alloy if you want expansion. Without expansion you get the FMJ effect, that's why so many prefer a FN to start with.

This can be done, I just don't want anyone going in thinking it's a snapper.

[Mk42gunner]

... You don't need HARD, you need TOUGH, DUCTILE alloy if you want expansion. Without expansion you get the FMJ effect, that's why so many prefer a FN to start with. ...



Well said, Bret.


Robert

[Larry Gibson]

Bret4207

Note the design of that bullet also. Only one lube groove, a scraper groove in front of the GC, wide heavy driving bands, the bore riding part of the nose is long and flat sided to fits the throat and the nose ogive itself is very short. That is a very, very good design for a HV velocity cast bullet with very little room for set back or uneven obturation during recoil. I know from experience that my old RCBS Lovern style 28-168-FN will not hold up to such velocities.

However Lyman's 287641 has a front scraper groove And additional lube grooves along th nose. I have to ask Von Gruff if he had those features removed from the mould? Also what rifle, particularly was it an older Mauser with the .287/8 groove depth or the more modern .284 groove depth?

Von Gruff has an excellent bullet there for the 7x57 and an excellent load also.

Larry Gibson

[Von Gruff]

Bret4207

Note the design of that bullet also. Only one lube groove, a scraper groove in front of the GC, wide heavy driving bands, the bore riding part of the nose is long and flat sided to fits the throat and the nose ogive itself is very short. That is a very, very good design for a HV velocity cast bullet with very little room for set back or uneven obturation during recoil. I know from experience that my old RCBS Lovern style 28-168-FN will not hold up to such velocities.

However Lyman's 287641 has a front scraper groove And additional lube grooves along th nose. I have to ask Von Gruff if he had those features removed from the mould? Also what rifle, particularly was it an older Mauser with the .287/8 groove depth or the more modern .284 groove depth?

Von Gruff has an excellent bullet there for the 7x57 and an excellent load also.

Larry Gibson

Larry I bought the mould new about 10 years ago as you see it although I have seen it depicted as you describe. My 2006 Lyman catalog shows it with a lube groove hard against the front drive band where mine has a transitional taper up to the drive band.
I built the rifle on a 1908 DWM with a 25in MAB (Australian) barrel at 284 groove - 275 bore, with 9 in twist. Boolit drops with 276 nose that I size to 275 for the first 1/4 in to give me tight slide fit into bore with base at shoulder-neck junction. Drive bands drop at 286 and I size them to 2855 in lapped Lee die. I dip the nose up to cartridge mouth in LLA after loading and sit them in a rack nose down to dry.
Had an unused 357lubrisizer die that I had opened up to take Wilson - Redding neck sizing bushes so I could partially size the nose from .276 down to .275.

http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv39/VonGruff/002-1.jpg

This gives me a boolit that FITS my barrel and is why it is so sucessful, although it did take quite a bit of trial and error to get it to this stage . Just got a freechex ii and have been playing with that and varying litho thickness.

I dip lube the base and sit them on an old oven tray to set, ( the hot lube on the boolit base sticks to the tray) then run an un sized case neck ( base cut off case) over them to remove excess lube. Lube is 2/3 bees wax to 1/3 vaseline. I have a small steel pie dish that I set on a gas ring at lowest setting to melt the lube and use flame on and off to controll melt heat. Care is needed as it can get messy very quickly.Not had any concerns over wax and flame but take the same care doing this as I do with water near lead pot and loading red and blue dot in rifle cases.

Von Gruff.

[Bret4207]

VG-Excellent post on fitting the static fit of a boolit and Larrys post covers much of the dynamic fit area. This is masters level work guys. Well done!

[Larry Gibson]

Von Gruff

That is definately the way to do it to get a perfect fit in throat/leade. Pretty much the same as I am doing with the 6.5 3GB bullet in my HV 6.5 Swede tests. It does work for HV cast bullet loads contrary to what some say. This is evidenced by your results and the results I am getting.

I've looked at a couple of those Lyman molds but none have been as what you've got. They all were as I described them with the extra lube/scraper grooves. I got a few cast bullets from another guy who casts his fairly hard. The dimensions were pretty close to what you're getting so that made the bullet too small for a good fit in my M95 Mauser. That bullet you have there is pretty much a "perfect" bullet design for a nose rider for HV cast bullet loads.

I also use bushings to size cast bullet noses. I use them in a regular bushing die and size the nose after the round is loaded. I like the set up you've made with an H die and will make one of those for my own use.

Very well done.

[Von Gruff]

Larry this is two version of the Lyman 287641
The first is as you described and the second is as I ordered but having seen two different depictions I had thought my particular mould was a new and improved iteration of the previous 287641's even though I would have thought that changes would have bought about a new model number. What ever the reason it as you say in that the particular mould I have is a very good design over and above the other two of the same model number.
http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv39/VonGruff/001-6.jpg
http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv39/VonGruff/002-2.jpg

And then there is mine. You can see (just) that the tapered transition is just to the front of the front drive band to ease the band into the rifling without the shock to the bullet a square fronted drive band might cause.

http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv39/VonGruff/001-7.jpg

Von Gruff.

[Von Gruff]

Would like comment on the three different types of Lyman Mould with the same mould number if anyone has any idea why they do this.Von Gruff.

[Bret4207]

They're CHEAP. They low bid their tool making and it was a little cheaper to do it that way and they figured no one would notice is my bet.

I searched for a long time to get a 266673 with the scraper ring. I don;t know if it makes a difference, but I like the idea.

[qajaq59]

So maybe 50/50 (pure-WW) and air cooled would be better. I may just have to set up a stack of wet newspaper at the range and do some experimenting. I use the 50/50 in my 30-30 at a bit slower speed then you are talking about, and they expand from .309 up to .358. And there's no loss of weight.

[Bret4207]

I use the 50/50 in my 30-30 at a bit slower speed then you are talking about, and they expand from .309 up to .358. And there's no loss of weight.

Whats the nose shape? I think that affects expansion quite a bit. A FN will be more likely to expand at a given speed than a spire point or cone shape.

[qajaq59]

Yes Bret it's a FN. The Lyman #311041. I have to use the FN in the Win 94.

[HABCAN]

Von Gruff, MY Lyman mould box has exactly the same label as the one you show, but the mould has the two lube grooves up near the nose as shown in their Handbook #47. So far, it shows excellent accuracy (ten rounds all touching in one ragged hole @ 25yds., scoped, benched) unsized (as cast) in my 29" M98 Brazilian, GC'd and TL lubed LLA, on 33.6 grs. #748 (2.2 cc. LEE scoop), CCI #250 primer, Rem brass. This is still a work-in-progress.

My cam has decided not to work on 'macro' or I'd include a pic.

The RCBS cruise missile shows promise on 42.0 grs. #760 in Win brass, also a work-in-progress.

[Billwnr]

I load up some 168 grainers up in my 7x57 for using when I spot grouse while deer hunting. Used to be I had to head shoot the grouse or pick up pieces when I'd shoot them with 140 grain Nosler Ballistictips. Now I can body shoot them with the 168 grain lead bullet and "pencil poke" a hole thru them. The bullets group real good at 25 and 50 yards. Were in the range of .5" at 50 yards. Only thing is they didn't hit close to where the crosshairs were. Had to hold where the thick/thin part of the crosshairs were at 25 yards (9 power) and 50 yards (3 power).

The grouse stayed in one piece.

[Von Gruff]

That is one of the many advantages of an accurate, expanding high velocity cast load. When it is dialled in properly it is usefull from 25 to 250yds and with mine set up with the bolt mounted aperture sight, it is usable over that distance. I often carry a few GSC bullets loaded to 3235fps and a scope in qd rings in a day pack should a longer shot, that cant be closed with, present itself.

Von Gruff.

[Bret4207]

Yes Bret it's a FN. The Lyman #311041. I have to use the FN in the Win 94.

Yup, common sense says the FN will encounter more resistance and be more prone to expansion than a SP. I suppose a RN would be in between.

The more I see of Von Gruffs pics, and speed, the more impressed I become. That's some real good work there. And in truth, I can't think of a finer round for the lower 48 than the 7x57.