Sizer/loober? Lots of ?'s

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Howdy all!

I'm thinking of getting one of those all in one loob sizers tools . . . I see Star, Lyman, RCBS mentioned mostly, and about in that order . . . Is that the order of quality? or ease of use?

It seems to me that the Star is the priceyest, but faster, once it is set up . . . is it a pain to reset up to different calibers?

The Lyman seems to be cheapest, how much slower is it than the Star?

I have mostly all RCBS equipment, and I'm very happy with their tools, but don't want to buy something I won't be happy with . . . is the RCBS worth buying?

I also see some people mentioning heaters . . . is that needed? Does it depend on what kind of loob, or the room temp? Or how many grooves your filling?

On the sizer part lets say I need .4320, and I have a .4310 sizer die . . . can I just hone it out like a Lee push through sizer? or does that mess up how the loob comes out?

At this point I'm only casting for .357 mag and .44 mag revolvers . . . but planing on getting set up for my .270 and 7.62X39 . . . does that make a difference?

WOW that's lots of questions!

[smilie=s:

[RobS]

The RCBS and Lyman as well as the Saeco presses work in the same fashion. Bullet goes down in the die and is lubed then the ejector rode pushed the pullet back up through the die. The Star is quicker as the bullet goes one direction and begins uptop and exits the bottom of the die.

As to which press is better...............depends on the individual and how many bullets a person is going to go through and if there are alot of bullets does such individual have alot of time on their hands and don't mind the extra time using the RCBS/Lyman/Seaco lubricators.

I have a RCBS and chose it over the Lyman for two reasons. 1. I got it on a heck of a deal and 2. I like the no BS warrenty RCBS carries. In my experience, if something is broken on a RCBS they'll send you what you need no questions asked and won't charge you for it either.

If I were looking though and seen a good used Lyman 4500 or 450 I wouldn't hessitate to buy one. Same goes for an RCBS too.

I don't know what kind of shooting you do so I couldn't really tell you what might be better for you, but if you plan on shooting in matches and plan on shooting over 1,000 bullets in a month then the Magma Star may be what you are after.

FWIW

[RobS]

As for the dies...........you can hone a RCBS/Lyman die out just the same as a Lee. Same goes for a Star die as well. Although the RCBS/Lyman dies there is a point where you can go too far and open the die up too much and the lube will squeeze up between the die and the die rod and make one heck of a mess.

As for heaters.............it is cheaper to make one. A piece of 1/4 aluminum wide enough and long enough to bolt the press onto and set an iron on the back side. The iron makes it so there is a temperature control where as the new 4500 setup doesn't have a control unit it is just a plug in and unplug situation.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

No official shootin' matches, just fun stuff, maybe 400-500 rounds a month at most, some months less . . .

Just need a little faster way to loob than pan loobing . . . and mights well size at the same time!

[462]

Shawn,
I have a Lyman 4500 that has yet to hiccup.

A means of heating most lubes is necessary, unless the ambient temperature is quite high. Heaters are available, however, the ever inventive and frugal casters have come up with some different solutions. I use a clip-on goose-neck lamp that abuts the press, and then it is all covered with aluminum foil. Others mount the press on a metal plate and set a clothes iron on it. You can probably cobble up something entirely different.

I've enlarged a Lyman sizer die, so anybody can do it. It can be done with nothing more than a wood dowel and wet/dry paper. Some lube will squeeze between the now larger die and the push rod. So what? Concievibly, a larger push can be made.

Caliber is inconsequential.

[HeavyMetal]

As RobS put it how many ya gonna do?

Let me refine my answer: if you are going to lube and size 2000 44 boolits then re set to size 2000 357 boolits the Star will have you done in a couple hours the rest of the sizers on the market will take you most of a weekend to do the same job!

A heater: you might get lucky on an auction site or here ( I did) but a cheap iron and a piece of aluminum with your sizer mounted to it can be every bit as effective and a ton cheaper.

Serious advise: do not take SWMBO's iron! Real bad JU JU comes from that!

If your not gonna size anywhere near that amount of boolits then any of the lube sizers will get the job done for you, eventually.

Lets talk lube. They come in soft, medium and hard. Two things I hate in my boolit lube is it running all over the place as soon as it gets a little warm and being constantly sticky.

Both soft and medium lubes suffer from one or both of these issues. almost all of them work well against leading, never was happy with any of the alox lubes made big clouds of smoke and leaded.

Hard lubes have some advantages, depending on who you listen to. I like them because I don't have the two issues I already mentioned. Case in point: 1979 IPSC match held at the old Juniper Tree range in Saugas ( now long gone) in July Temps on the range in the high 90's low 100's. shot first two stages with ammo already loaded in mags, and no issues.

Went back to the car to re fill mags and found all my ammo a black gooey mess! All the lube had melted and run out the case mouth's and down into the cavity in the ammo box's I had it packaged in ! Boolits were in the box's nose down of course!

Had issues with feeding and leading as well as a tough time coming up with a way to clean the ammo so I could shoot it. This was Javilina lube and I have never used it since.

Were I in Alaska I might have another opinion about soft lubes!

The hard lubes resist heat and are not sticky making handling them a lot less mess! However if you have your heat settings to high on your lube heater you can make the hard lubes very messy to deal with until they cool down.

Hope this info helps.

[94Doug]

I would stick with RCBS just because they treat me so good. They have fixed/repaired/replaced, and sent me parts to do the same.

Doug

[smoked turkey]

Shawn:
You have received some very good input from lots of very knowledgeable folks. I will just say that my Lyman has been a very good sizer/luber for lots of years. I find the sizing dies and top punches required for the sizing operation to be some cheaper than others. I have no issues with my unit. It is fast enough for me but then I don't shoot the volume of ammo you do. I do have a heater for my unit and it does help the lube to flow better than not having one. In fact it can be too much heat with the Alox lube. If it is a warm day I might not even turn the heater on. It kind of depends on the type boolit and number of lube grooves. You just have to do it to get a feel for whether you need it or not. You'll know. I wouldn't want to be without a lube/sizer. I pan lube muzzleloader and it works good, but don't have to size for muzzleloader and that makes a big difference. You are on the right track. Get one of some make. I don't think you can go wrong with any of the units you have mentioned.

[MtGun44]

Personal opinions.

Hate lubes that need a heater.
Love soft or medium lubes, esp NRA 50/50 or LBT Blue or several other similar lubes.

Stars are great, but fussier to set up, unless all your boolits have single lube grooves.
Multiple lube groove boolits require that you match the holes in the die with the
groove number and spacing. PITA to set up. Once set up, run like a scalded dog.
For single lube grooves only, just adjuste depth until you have the holes lined up
with the single groove. Run like heck.

Most people don't load enough to justify a Star, and will be happy with the simpler and
easier, and cheaper (esp dies) Lyman or RCBS. These have one row of holes in die
for lube, plunger seals them off until the boolit pases the holes. Size and lube any
number of grooves with one die, no fiddling with filling holes with lead shot to block
off excess or open up with a drill as in the Star dies with multiple lube grooves. One
die, no setup except depth and go to town.

Star injects lube to all grooves simultaneously, therefore has to exactly match all the
holes in the die with all the lube grooves. Lyman and RCBS move the lube grooves
past one single fixed row of holes, simpler but down and up action as opposed to Star straight
thru action.

I have two Stars that stay setup for a few high volume boolits. All others are done on
a Lyman 450 and RCBS. 90% of lube is NRA 50/50 some LBT blue also used.

Bill

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

That is great info!

I think I'll go with the RCBS, as I like there other stuff I have . . . IF we shoot 500 per month, it is between calibers, so only a couple hundred of each. Once I get set up for the 7.62X39 for our AK47's, I may go through more . . .

In the winter our house is only 72 degrees, but in the summer I let it get up to 82, as I like it warm, but I'm frugal and don't like to pay the electric company in the winter! Right now I'm using Emmerts to pan loob with, that seems quite soft to me.

I have a few sticks of loob that I got from both White Label & Bullshop, figuring on that someday I would need it! And I needed to fill out the order & package!

If I have a bulk loob like my Emmerts, can I just melt it and pour it into the RCBS and let it cool down, or does it have to be in stick form?

My wife has two irons . . . she can only use one at a time . . . I'll let her pick which one! (she likes to shoot too!)

[dragonrider]

JMHO, I have a Star, actually had it for about 15-20 years but only started using it the last 3 or 4 years. Had major frstration when first trying to use it, hence the reason it sat for so long before I finaly said I would figure it out or sell it. Truth is I came withing one day of selling it. That was the day I found myself here and the help I needed to get it up and running. I was doing everything wrong. NOW if I had to go back to my Lyman 450 I would give up casting and use jacketed bullets. My method is not for everyone as not everyone has the resources to do it. I make my own dies and a punch for each boolit, each die and punch is boolit specific. this allows me to change from one boolit to another, regardless of caliber, and be sizing/lubing in 90 seconds or less. It's as easy to lube 5 boolits and change to do 5 other boolits as it is to a hundred. The time I spend sizing/lubing now is enjoyable, before the Star is was torture to say the least. I've said all this time and again on this forum but it is worth saying. If your time spent sizing/lubing is worth anything to you at all and you want to enjoy it, BUY THE STAR. I don't know what a Star costs right now they might be twice what the others cost, but are worth every penny.

[462]

can I just melt it and pour it into the RCBS and let it cool down: Yes.

she can only use one at a time: What, she can't iron using both hands? Think of the time savings.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

can I just melt it and pour it into the RCBS and let it cool down: Yes.

she can only use one at a time: What, she can't iron using both hands? Think of the time savings.

Yeah, but my bloomers are not that big . . .:mrgreen: She will manage just fine with only one iron, or she can get a job and go buy her own stinkin' iron![smilie=w:

[theperfessor]

Indirectly related to the OP's sizer question: I use a Lyman 450 which I rebuilt, it works fine. A lot of my frustration is in handling the bullets, found out if I wear Nitrile gloves I don't drop as many on the floor and can go a lot faster as my grip is more secure. Also helps keep hands clean.

Of course this might help no matter what sizer you pick, but since you have to handle each bullet twice when using a Lyman, Saeco, or RCBS it really speeds things up as a lot of the time is spent handling and not sizing.

[Wayne Smith]

I have both a Lyman and an RCBS. I keep Emmert's in the Lyman for BP and pistol, I keep Speed Green in the RCBS (green, ya kno!) for rifle and other high pressure/speed applications. It's way easier to change dies than lube. If I were to buy again it would be the RCBS hands down for the simple reason of ease of changing dies. The threads on the Lyman are just too fine to be useful.

I got both of mine off eBay back when you could regularly find deals there.

[454PB]

I have a Star, two Lyman 450's, and most recently bought a Herter lubrisizer at a gun show. The Herter is basically a copy of the Saeco machine. I make my own dies for all of them, and keep the least used sizes in the Herter and Lymans. For serious production and ease of use, the Star shines bright!

In making my own dies, I've come up with some "unusual" solutions to shorten and simplify the machining......flangeless Star dies and threadless Herter (Saeco) dies.

When I started casting, RCBS didn't make a lubrisizer. If they had, I probably would own one, simply because the warranty and customer service is so great.

[cbrick]

Here's my take on it, if your doing 500 a month with possibly more in the future be careful with your choice of lubers before you buy. Why? Because after you invest money in dies and then decide that you want to move up to the Star you get to spend the money on dies all over again. Get the best one first and buy dies just once.

I've used the RCBS and SAECO lubers, sold the RCBS and haven't touched the SAECO in years and I now buy dies for just one lubri-sizer, the Star.

Rick

[Maven]

"Serious advice: do not take SWMBO's iron! Real bad JU JU comes from that!"

Heavy Metal's warning is as good as it gets!

[grages]

Indirectly related to the OP's sizer question: I use a Lyman 450 which I rebuilt, it works fine. A lot of my frustration is in handling the bullets, found out if I wear Nitrile gloves I don't drop as many on the floor and can go a lot faster as my grip is more secure. Also helps keep hands clean.

Of course this might help no matter what sizer you pick, but since you have to handle each bullet twice when using a Lyman, Saeco, or RCBS it really speeds things up as a lot of the time is spent handling and not sizing.

+1 for the nitrile gloves. I'm new to sizers and on my second session found the gloves made a big difference.

Shawn

[MtGun44]

Where would one purchase nitrile gloves? Are these tougher than the latex "doc" gloves?
I sure hope so, I find the latex gloves uselessly fragile. Are nitrile gloves 'throw away' or is
this a heavy duty reusable glove?

Bill

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Google them or check ebay, they are great! I use them for mechanical work . . . depends on the thickness, mine are mostly 5 mil, I have some that are 9 mil thick, the cheap ones are about 3 mil, and they are definatly single use . . . some times they tear before your ready! my 5 mils I can wipe down and reuse a few times . . . but the thicker you get, the more like the rubber kitchen gloves they become! And the lose of dextarety and ability to feel.

They are usually blue, but come in many colors, alot of mechanics use black ones, and they can be found at a auto parts store.

"Doc's" also use these as some people are "latex sensitive", don't bother with anything thinner than 4 mil, and get the right size, as if they are stretched too much they will tear out.

[Finster101]

Bill, you can find nitrile gloves at most auto parts stores. I reuse them till I poke a hole in one. Just peel them off and leave them inside out. When you are ready to use them again just roll them back through blow in em and you are good to go.

[MtGun44]

Thanks guys, I'll get some and try them for working on the mowers and cars, too.

Bill

[HeavyMetal]

go to Harbor freight www.harborfreight.com and search for Nitrile glove's

Think they do them in box's of 100 medium large and xtra large

Part numbers are 37050 37051 and 37052 been buying the 37051's (large) for years and they work well and are cheap. Have no clue the ml thickness I use then till the break and then put on another pair!

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Well . . . I went ahead and ordered a RCBS on sale at Midway, along with a few dies . . . I did not have a top punch for my RCBS 38-148 DEWC mold, and could not find one online anywhere!

So . . . I called RCBS, and Alice answered, and . . . after I explained my situation, she said, "please hold" less than 2 min later she was back, and said "that is discontinued, but . . . I found one out back, what is your name and address?" No Charge! I never had one, it was not broken, I bought the mold on Ebay! She didn't care!

I like my RCBS stuff!

500 rounds per month is my max, sometimes it is only 100 . . .

I also could not find a star except one on ebay . . . http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-STAR-Lubricator-Resizer-314-lubizer-NR-/220614439689?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item335da53309#ht_1174wt_1139 3 days left . . . and it seems kinda rusty, and has a small chunk out of the bottom, and where would I get dies?


But I do have a question . . . How hard is it to switch from one loob to another? Can I just heat it up, and dump it out?, then pour in some other?

[RobS]

With the number of bullets you plan on shooting you'll be just fine. I don't mind even lubing up 300 to 400 at a time with my RCBS. You have to love the RCBS customer service that's for sure.

[HeavyMetal]

Yes you can heat the lube and let it run out but I figure thats kinda of a waste.

Any time I want to change lube I size boolits until I'm out add the new lube, pressure up and get going. eventually all the old lube comes out, you get some real nice color combo's, and the new lube start getiing to the boolits.

Nothing wasted.

[MtGun44]

You made a good choice for your situation. Lyman dies fit perfectly and are typically
cheaper than RCBS dies. Lathesmith makes Star dies, and I think he also makes custom
Lyman/RCBS dies, but not certain. PM him - also Buckshot does this same service, both
are known for HIGH quality, too.

I rarely change lubes, but you can remove the die, put a catch tub (may have to get innovative
here) under the die opening and apply a heat gun. Lube will run out.

I do exactly what HeavyMetal says - just put the new in and work it thru, ignore the mixed lube,
seems to work just fine.

Bill

[RobS]

Buckshot makes the Lee push through dies and the Lyman/RCBS dies. He also makes Expander plugs/buttons for the Lyman M dies. I've had some of his work and it is excellent and he is very good with communication.

Before I came across Buckshot here I put out a PM to Lathesmith about a Lyman/RCBS die and he directed me to Buckshot so it would appear that he is a Star die maker.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

OK, that is good info, Thanks!

The biggest RCBS sizer dies I could get were .358 & .431 I really need .359 & .432, I plan on using the fine grit sand paper on a dowel in a drill, like I did to my lee . . . I'll see if it leaks too much . . . if it is a problem, I'll ask Buckshot for help.

I was thinking . . . but may be wrong . . . but that I would want a different loob for my 270, than my hand guns . . . yes? Or is there a loob that would work for both?

I'm new at this loob stuff . . . I started out with tumble loob Xlox, then mixed it with mineral spirits, then added JPW, still not happy, then . . . mixed up Emmerrts, it works OK in my lite 44 mag loads . . . but pan loobing is slow, and is messier than I like.

I have small half stick samples from White Label of X 2500 plus, BAC Lube, 50-50 BessWax, and Carnauba Red. I also have from Bullshop a full stick of Speed Green . . .

How much will a half stick do? My handgun boolits are one loob groove . . . I've ordered the RCBS 270-150 grain.

Can I fit more than a full stick in at a time?

How do I know if I need to heat the loob or not?

I started out saying I had lots of questions!;)

I have discovered that the latex gloves don't like diesel fuel, but the nitrile ones don't mind!

[462]

1. A half stick will lube hundreds of boolits, dependent upon the size and number of grooves.

2. My Lyman, which is similar to your RCBS will accept one stick at a time.

3. If you encounter more than mild resistance, while applying pressure to the reservoir, you should apply heat. Too much heat and the lube becomes messy. It's easy to figure out.

Also, you can combine hard and soft lubes to create your own medium lube.

[RayinNH]

Bill, you can get the nitrile gloves from any supplier, Enco, Harbor freight. MSC etc. They're the blue gloves and are oil resistant, they don't break down. They are throw away...Ray

[cajun shooter]

Let me add some info about the aluminum for a heater. Another poster advised a 1/4 in piece and that is too thin. It will allow too much heat to what you have it mounted to. A 3/8 or 1/2 inch piece is much better to deal with. Get a piece that is large enough to sit a travel iron on it. I found that travel irons have better thermostats and are much easier to use because of size. You don't have to raid the closet of SWMBO. I used this method for a long time with a RCBS machine until I bought my Stars. People who tell you that a Star is a PITA just don't like to read directions. The Star is very easy and fun to use; it does have a learning curve. Why people think it is hard to put a piece of 7 1/2 shot into a lube hole is beyond me. If you send a bullet that you want to lube to Lathesmith he will make the correct mold so that you do nothing but lube. Now how hard was that? If you stay in casting and advance to a Star you will see what the accolades are about.

[Wayne Smith]

Changing lubes is the reason I bought the RCBS. I bought the Lyman thinking it would be adequate but quickly realized that my shooting demanded two lubes simply because I was shooting BP and high power rifle. Emmerts is fine for BP and most pistol but begins to fail at higher speeds. After filling the Lyman once I realized: A) how much lube it holds and how long it would last and, B) that I didn't want to try to melt the lube out of it. I got back on eBay and bought the RCBS unit. That was years ago and I've settled on those two lubes for all my work and they have been adequate so far.

[RobS]

OK, that is good info, Thanks!

The biggest RCBS sizer dies I could get were .358 & .431 I really need .359 & .432, I plan on using the fine grit sand paper on a dowel in a drill, like I did to my lee . . . I'll see if it leaks too much . . . if it is a problem, I'll ask Buckshot.

Honing out the die .001 will not be a problem with lube leaking. Just make sure when you are done lubing bullets that you back off the pressure on the reservoir.

[RobS]

OK, that is good info, Thanks!

I have small half stick samples from White Label of X 2500 plus, BAC Lube, 50-50 BessWax, and Carnauba Red. I also have from Bullshop a full stick of Speed Green . . . If you are strapped and don't have any more lube I would mix all the White Label lube samples in a glass beaker and melt them all down together in a microwave as it would make a good lube; just pour the lube directly into the top of the machine. Make sure that you have the sizing die in the machine first other wise the lube will run out on the floor. Also since you have a new machine I would also advise that if you melt down and pour that you pour a little at a time at first so the lube has a bit of a chance to set up in the machine and you'll reduce the chance that the hot liquid lube will run out between the sizing die and the presses housing. At first the lubricator will go through the initial stick very quickly as it needs to be pushed down into the body of the press and into the die chamber so be prepared to have another stick available

Can I fit more than a full stick in at a time? Not a whole lot more than one stick, I usually buy solid sticks and melt them down and pour as I am cheap and for the same price I end up with more lube. Also This can reduce the chance of air bubles

How do I know if I need to heat the loob or not? If it is too stiff/hard then it will be very difficult to turn the reservoir plunger screw. Out of the White Lable lubes you have Carnauba Red will be the only one that would require a heater. Speed Green will not require a heater either

I started out saying I had lots of questions!;)
No problem..........that's why it's a forum

I have discovered that the latex gloves don't like diesel fuel, but the nitrile ones don't mind!

Regarding Lube........I use Carnauba Red for everything and it works well in low pressure rounds like 38 special and 45 ACP and can be used with great success at rifle pressures and speeds as well. As I said before it does need a heat for flow though.

[MtGun44]

NRA formula 50-50 (Javalina, RCBS, many others - brown sticky lube) is fine for almost
all basic pistol and rifle loads. As you start getting exotic and trying for 2400 fps in a
rifle, you are likely to need to look into some of the fancier lubes.

Basically for the beginner - start with a generic 50-50 beeswax-alox for smokeless and
one of the soft blackpowder specific lubes for BP loading. If you don't do BP, you will
go a long way with 50-50. Once you are an experienced loader and have had some
successes, start experimenting with the MANY other good lubes or special application
lubes out there. My point for newbies is to 1) avoid too many choices - it gets overwhelming
and 2) try to get the most likely path to basic success to avoid frustration. Once you
have basic success you can just keep doing that over and over and stay there forever or
if you are an experimenter at heart (many here are serious experimenters) then you have
a base to expand on and develop a lot more in the way of extreme accy or higher velocity
or expanding HPs or soft points or a million other variations. Basic success with the simple
and well known solutions should be every newbie's starting point.

Bill

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

I like the idea of WL Carnuba Red & the Emmerts I make as it is non-toxic, I like the smell of BS SpeedGreen!

Hopefully I can find a Loob that will work on 38 spl, 357 mag, 44 mag, (Both revolver & rifle in previous!) Fast 270 Win & 7.62X39 in AK47 . . . AND not need a heater . . . !:mrgreen:

But it seems that is Not likley!

I'll do some expirementing when it comes . . . I don't even have the mold for 270 or 7.62X39 yet, but the 270 is on the way, and should have a Checkmaker soon for both!


:Fire:

[Wayne Smith]

Hopefully I can find a Loob that will work on 38 spl, 357 mag, 44 mag, (Both revolver & rifle in previous!) Fast 270 Win & 7.62X39 in AK47 . . . AND not need a heater . . . !:mrgreen:

But it seems that is Not likley!

:Fire:

Speed green will do all that and more. Easy to make or buy directly already made. Just because I use Emmerts for the low speed stuff doesn't mean Speed Green won't work.

[RobS]

Wayne's right..........speed green will work on your lower pressure rounds and extend to the upper ends of the rifles

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

I'm gonna start with Emertts, as that is what I have a bunch of, and enough supplies to make LOTS more! And it will be atleast a month before I'm ready for the 270 stuff . . .


[smilie=s:

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

That old star went for $187 on ebay, but get this . . . there was a RCBS there that sold for $147.50 plus shipping (it did have a die with it! But nothing I would use) Mine was new and less than that!

[HeavyMetal]

$187 for the Star was a good price if it wasn't trashed.

As for the RCBS lube sizer? E bay is the land of "what the heck"?? And you just got a birdseye view!

[RKJ]

Indirectly related to the OP's sizer question: I use a Lyman 450 which I rebuilt, it works fine. A lot of my frustration is in handling the bullets, found out if I wear Nitrile gloves I don't drop as many on the floor and can go a lot faster as my grip is more secure. Also helps keep hands clean.

Of course this might help no matter what sizer you pick, but since you have to handle each bullet twice when using a Lyman, Saeco, or RCBS it really speeds things up as a lot of the time is spent handling and not sizing.


Perfessor, thank you. I was dreading lubing the bullets I need to lube as it's a pain with my Lyman 4500 (hard to pull out and slippery) I believe your idea will cure most of that problem.

[azcruiser]

Am i the only one who uses magma engineering from Queen Creek AZ ??