getting the dirt out--What to do ?

[gray wolf]

OK all you new folks, here's an old hand that needs a helping hand.
So don't you worry about asking for help when you need it.

I am working on my last batch of WW and range scrap with a lead pipe in the mix. The lead pipe had a lot of whit crusty junk inside it. I got out what I could by hitting it with a hammer, but some stayed with the pipe.
Any way it all went into the smelting pot. I used wax and saw dust to flux it.
I have melted it two times and still have dirt in the bullets. I cleaned the pot with a wire brush 2 times. if I pour some into a spoon I can see the dirt come to the top as little specs.
How the heck do I clean this batch of metal up. I add my wax to the smelt and it flames up, after the fire goes out I stir it and skim it. I do this 4 or 5 times as I am smelting. I also use saw dust and after it gets all black and burnt i skim it off.
The metal takes on a gray skin layer almost immediately. I skim some of that off as I am making the little corn cobs. But the dirt is still there, when I clean the pot there is a fine black sandy looking dirt in the bottom. I dump it out.
I can see the dirt in the bullets as small specks and little granules.
What should I do ? am I not using enough wax ? do I need more saw dust ?
If I do little muffin tins from my pot I can see the dirt in the top of the ingot.
Do I just keep smelting it till it goes away?

I for got to say that I use a strainer with holes in it a little smaller than 1/8 inch. Could this be the problem ? could the dirt be going through the holes and back into the melt ?
when I flux my pot I use a spoon but then again the dirt is still there.

Sam

[docone31]

Heat the snot out of it, turn it off the heat, then reheat it. Stir constantly.
The dirt will hit the top.

[Calamity Jake]

Stir it with a dry piece of lumber, 1X2 works well, it allows you to scrape the sides and bottom of your smelting pot and brings the dirt to the top to be skimmed off.
If your using wax for flux you need to stir while the wax is smoking don't wait for it to stop the wax will be gone. You can elemanate the smoke by lighting with a match but you still need to stir before the wax burns up.
When you but the bolit metal in your casting pot flux it again with wax and a stick.

[HeavyMetal]

I'll second using a piece of wood to stir the pot. Found out this works real well with wood shaving/sawdust.

To use the saw dust it needs to be burned into "ash" and then stirred into the melt. It's the carbon that does the fluxing.

[qajaq59]

Just a thought.....
You could try using a stainless steel pot from the local junk store on a coleman stove. Melt it in smaller batches and really flux it well with sawdust and a 3/4 inch wooden dowel. That way you wont be fighting any dirt that's already in your regular pot.

[thenaaks]

would a fine mesh strainer work...i'm talking extra fine tea or bouillon style.

[Wayne Smith]

I have had the same problem with some roofing sheet lead I have. I get a very fine black/red sand in the pot. It is light enough that it doesn't all float but some gets held by the weight of the lead. I have put wax in my ladle, turned it upside down, and run it through the melt bubbling the wax through the melt. I have stirred, almost to the point of whipping the melt to try to get it to release. I develop a lot of oxides that way! I'm guessing the sand has something to do with the glue that was used with the lead, but I don't know for sure. I've gotten it to work, but always find some dust on the bottom of the pot when I empty it.

[gray wolf]

Well I did it again today, a little smaller batch, fluxed with wax, and saw dust also a wooden stick. Did it about 10 times while I made ingots. Stirred the heck out of it each time, and each time I got this gray skin on the melt, I would drag it to the side with a spoon and take it off.
It would lump together like mud. Re flux and the same thing, over and over and over.
I would pour the ingot and as it hardens there would be a little circle of the gray stuff in the center of the ingot. A little spot about 1/4 inch around. Thing is when I have it in my casting pot if I lift the handle and fill a tablespoon with the hot lead I get the same little gray spot in the center of the spoon. Like something that wont mix with the rest of the melt. I can also see it on the top of the sprue after i pour into the mold. It gets on the surface of the bullets,
always just on one side. Yes there are little dirt spots also. The dirt and sand have cleaned up quite a bit but this dull gray **** just will not go away.
I have fluxed and stirred this metal till I am exhausted. It gets bright and shiny and then seconds latter it has this dull gray slime on top that skims off like gray crumbly dross.
My bullets look like ****. I am thinking some kind of contamination.
I have never had this happen before. It is my last batch of lead and it looks like it is a loss.
What the heck is this gray stuff that keeps coming off ? I first thought TIN, but I have never seen tin form on the surface so fast after a heavy flux and stir, and then skim off like gray dross.
I am at the point that I have no thought that if I cast again with this metal it will be any different.
In the past I have smelted and fluxed, clean off the dirt and perhaps do it again.
Make my ingots, go to the casting pot and make bullets.
Funny thing is I can cast small 32 ACP bullets by the 1,000's and they come out beautiful with the same metal. Don't no, smaller mold?
I have the same problem with a 228 grain RN in a Lyman mold. This has been ongoing with the 200 grain HP mold.
If I can't get this right I am all done casting, I will just put everything away, and hope I can get some new metal. If I do I will have my friend sand blast my casting pot and my smelting pot.
I may even try a stainless steel pot in case the cast iron one I have is messed up.
I don't think it is my casting pot, I cast some bullets for a friend a short while ago with his WW and a little sheet lead and they came out just fine. Same smelting pot, same casting pot.

Sam


Sam

[docone31]

It almost sounds like you got some of my zinc castings!
they do that.
Just cool the pot, then heat it and stir. When you ingot it up, more is ejected.

[gray wolf]

I have no idea what you just told me docone31.
Please explain again?

[Cord]

The range scrap is the unknown quantity in the recipe, you don’t
really know what’s in it, it may have contaminated the whole batch.

You haven’t had this problem before, with other batches;
You probably won’t have it again if you set this metal aside.

There are several options besides giving up, which our buddy Gray Wolf
would never do – his motto is “retreat is not an option.”
He would never let a batch of dumb metal get the best of him, so:

Make .32s if it works for that, or plinker boolits for fun, or fishing sinkers.

Or, fact is, this gray scum wants to come out of the metal and you keep
trying to flux it back in….so let it have its way, and burn it out by deliberately
overheating the metal, and skim off and discard all the scum and oxides.
If you do this until it is mostly pure lead, you will know when you make
an ingot and the scum does not appear anymore, its been burned out.

Then you can make ingots, clean your equipment, and re-smelt with
some tin for a binary alloy, or a known good WW metal. For me, though,
it would always be just a little bit questionable. The proof is in the casting.

BTW, last summer I smelted 400lbs of all plumbers pipe, white stuff,
brown stuff, paint, hair, sink traps, and (ugh!) toilet traps- 50lbs at a
time in a 10” skillet, (to fit the toilet traps) used lots of vegetable oil
to flux, enough liquid to cover the top of the melt, fired it off and stirred
while it was burning, with a ladle on a long wood handle.
Always from Upwind, you know it!!

Got fine, pure soft lead, no problems,
so the white stuff is not the culprit.

.

[mold maker]

Most often the white stuff is just lead oxide. This is almost always floating atop the initial melt. Trying to reclaim it has always been futile for me.
I get paint stir sticks free at Lowes to stir sawdust into the melt and do it as soon as full melt is attained. Be sure to scrape all surfaces of the pot below the melt to loosen any trash that is held in place by the melt. There shouldn't be anything heavier than lead (gold and rare earth minerals) in your pot. All trash should float to the top of the melt if scraped and stirred loose from the surfaces.
The grey skim forming on top (in my opinion) is more lead/tin oxide forming at too high a temp. I use the bottom of my ladle to brush it back and dip from the clear area created, for both ingots and boolits. A small spot on the top of an ingot is of no concern. Likewise on the top of the sprue button.
I've never (knock on wood) encountered lead alloy that didn't respond to this method.

[cbrick]

To use the saw dust it needs to be burned into "ash" and then stirred into the melt. It's the carbon that does the fluxing.

Absolutely correct. Stir all you want before it's turned into carbon but you won't accomplish much. After it's completely stopped smoking and is a fine black ash is when it does it's work (and magic), this is when you want to do your side and bottom scraping and fluxing.

Can't say that I've ever had the same problem or at least to the extent your having it but it kind of sounds like (the grey oxidation) a really high alloy temp and maybe even a good air flow over the top of the pot. That will oxidize a lead alloy in a heartbeat. Are you using a thermometer? What temp is the alloy?

Proper use of sawdust as flux (after it's turned to carbon) at a reasonable casting temp (700 degrees for WW, pure lead only a bit higher) should remove most impurities as dross with the carbon and also reduce tin and antimony back into the melt. That's why I only use sawdust.

Don't know about wax as flux, tried it once and as far as I could tell it's biggest attribute was the smoke coating my exhaust fans and vent with wax. Didn't like that very much.

Rick

[monadnock#5]

We had a member (don't remember his handle) who said he worked for a battery making outfit. He made a flat statement that "You can turn a whole pot of lead into dross simply by fluxing and stirring".

I've been where you're at gray wolf. Here's what works for me. I smelt in a cast iron pot, removing all the junk that comes loose "easily". Then I make ingots. I then take those ingots and melt them down again in a stainless steel pot on a hot plate. The hot plate gets the job done, but doesn't get anywhere near as hot as the propane plumbers furnace.

At the cooler temps, getting flux down to the bottom of the melt is easy, and makes for much cleaner ingots. After making each batch of ingots, with either cast iron or stainless, scrape that pot down HARD!! Dump all the stuff into a separate container. When the liquid metal is coming up the sides of the pot in the next batch, you can then dump anything worth salvaging from the last batch on top. The good stuff will melt back in, and the dross float right on top where it can be easily corraled.

Labor intensive? It is indeed. It does work though.

[sagacious]

Sam,
OK, before we go to the "it must be zinc contamination!" or "it's mystery metal!" let's take a closer look. All of this is explainable, and fixable.

WW's + range scrap + lead pipe is a fairly low-alloy/lead-rich melt. The more lead, the faster and more the surface will oxidize. That's the gray scum that forms immediately. This is to me expected. No mystery. If you are normally used to range lead, or ww's, then you might not usually see that gray oxide forming. You can reflux forever, and it'll come back, because it's the lead that's doing it, because it's lead oxide. Flux, skim, pour ingots. Do not try to fight the lead.

As advised by Calamity Jake, you must stir the wax flux while it is melted and most chemically active. Stirring after the wax has burned off is equal to not fluxing with wax at all. This is a major consideration.

You see oxide dross even on the sprue puddle, because you're stirring ("stirred the heck out of it") the dross and oxides into the melt! The oxides CAN be wetted and stirred (entrained) into the melted lead, and that oxide will be poured into your ingots. Stirring like a witch at a cauldron is not going to help. Once you have a lot of wetted and entrained oxides, fluxing and getting a clean melt becomes much more of a chore. That oxide "stuff" seems like it won't mix with the rest of the lead... because it won't. But you've stirred it in good, so it's really well mixed in.

Do like you used to in the past: Melt , flux, skim, and perhaps do it again. That melt almost certainly had a higher percentage of lead because of the lead pipe. It makes a difference. Do not fight the lead, the lead will win every time. Melt, flux, skim, and pour. That's it.

Yes, stainless steel pots are more user-friendly in many ways.

Likely, the easiest solution for your problem is to remelt your ingots and heat to 800*F. Do not stir at all while melting! Just heat and let it sit undisturbed at 800*F for 10 minutes. Then reduce the heat to 550-600*F MAXIMUM, and then flux generously with wax, stir gently while the wax is melting, and then skim. Do not stir the melt after the wax has all burned. You'll get a lot of dross, and skim it off with a large spoon, not a slotted or mesh spoon. The re-pour ingots at 550*F. You should be OK at that point.

If you do exactly that, and still have problems pouring your Lyman 228, then the problem almost surely is not the lead. It would shift to the mold or pouring technique.

Good luck.

[docone31]

I cast my paper patched with zinc. Same with my .357.
I have heard from other people at the range it is miserable stuff to ingot up, except it works real well for me.
Perhpas, you can mix in some pure into the melt. That will thin the bunch out. Things change then.
Talk to a roofer, and get some roof boots. They really sweeten the batch. Pure as it gets.
I told the people at the range, just save my castings for me.

[sagacious]

The addition of pure lead is likely to be the cause of the rapidly forming and unexpected oxide, and excessive stirring plus improper fluxing caused entrainment. This batch had a lead pipe added. Reheating 200*F above the melting point of pure lead and refluxing properly is likely the solution.

[gray wolf]

Wow thank you guy's for the answers, It gives me a new perspective.
I am ahead of the curve enough to understand what you all have told me and I will put it to use .
No I DON'T GIVE UP. just got a little put out with this. If it can be whipped I will do it.
I have to. what am I going to do with 3000 32 acp bullets EH.
OK back at it tomorrow, and I will keep you posted.

Sam

[ghh3rd]

Good reading material! Although I've made lots of boolits over the past 18 months, I've always had difficulty getting what I consider a 'perfect' batch of lead. I will be alloying a 66 lb batch of WW ingots in a few days, and will have a chance to try what I've learned here. Seems like the better the lead, the better the boolit should be :-)

[Springfield]

Just for fun, scrape out that grey mass on top and pour some Muriatic acid on it. If it sizzles, it's zinc. If not, probably lead ozides. I have found that overheating a batch just makes the problem worse. Like someone else said, just let it cool down and try again the next day, but use a temp guage and don't let it get hotter than about 750. Works for me, and I have melted most everything going, at the rate of about 2000 lbs a year.

[cbrick]

Likely, the easiest solution for your problem is to remelt your ingots and heat to 800*F. Do not stir at all while melting! Just heat and let it sit undisturbed at 800*F for 10 minutes. Then reduce the heat to 550-600*F MAXIMUM, and then flux generously with wax, stir gently while the wax is melting, and then skim. Do not stir the melt after the wax has all burned. You'll get a lot of dross, and skim it off with a large spoon, not a slotted or mesh spoon. The re-pour ingots at 550*F. You should be OK at that point. Good luck.

I am normally in complete lock step with sagacious on most things but this has me a bit puzzled. Like sagacious I was thinking a high lead percentage and low tin percentage because of the lead pipe (we don't know how much pipe he used). The closer to a pure lead the faster the melt should oxidize (because of reduced or non-existent tin) especially at higher temps (we don't know the temp or if he used a thermometer) plus any air flow over the melt, we should agree on this.

Tin not only helps inhibit the oxidation (formation of dross) of lead up to about 750 degrees (it looses much of it's ability to inhibit oxidation much past this temp) but also dramatically reduces the liquidus temp, right down to 60/40 solder @ 361 degrees. I suspect gray wolf has a very low tin percentage, is casting/smelting too hot and if casting outdoors has a nice breeze blowing across the top of the pot. Result . . . The rapid oxidation of the lead he is experiencing.

What has me puzzled is "if" his melt is closer to pure rather than a lead/tin alloy the liquidus temperature will be close to 621 degrees because of a low tin percentage. If he tries to flux 550 degree pure (or close to pure) lead he will need a really strong spoon cause it will be solid or mushy at best. Or am I missing something? I confess to never having tried fluxing or pouring ingots at 550 degrees, my normal routine is to not flux, stir, add anything to the alloy or anything else until liquidus temp is reached. It's difficult to know the exact liquidus temp because it changes with any change to the alloy so for me liquidus temp is casting temp or 700 degrees with WW + 2% tin. I rarely cast with pure but when I do it has 2% tin added and I still cast at 700 degrees and I don't get the rapid oxidation that gray wolf is experiencing.

Rick

[lwknight]

Cbrick , I'm with you on that one. It has been my experience that wax will autoignite at about 650 degrees or so. With a generous amount of was that when melted will spread all over the melt ignites , its time to stir the pee waddly out of it. That will reduce the oxides and release the junk from being tinned and clinging to the lead causing you to lose good alloy with the junk that gets tossed.

The flaming wax will also noticeably increase the pot temperature so you can lower the burner while the the wax burns.

Pure lead does oxidize rapidly. I just rake the skum aside and dip up for ingots.
when there is a lot of scum or I'm at the last ingot I might flux it one more time to try to save the last bit of alloy by reduction.

[sagacious]

What has me puzzled is "if" his melt is closer to pure rather than a lead/tin alloy the liquidus temperature will be close to 621 degrees because of a low tin percentage. If he tries to flux 550 degree pure (or close to pure) lead he will need a really strong spoon cause it will be solid or mushy at best. Or am I missing something?
Cbrick,
No, you're not missing anything. I commend you for your sharp eye. But note that I wrote to flux at 550-600*F.

Melt point of clip-on ww's is about 500*F, and pure lead about 620*F. Mark twain is about 560*F if the melt is 50% ww's and 50% lead pipe (pure), since the Pb/Sb phase diagram shows a linear progression from the eutectic. The addition of range lead might perhaps put it closer to 575ish*F. The intended goal is to pour ingots at as low a temp as possible/practical. If this latest batch is solid at 550*F, then I reckon the problem will take care of itself, and Gray Wolf will up the temp as needed.

Tin is not always the deciding factor in lead alloy melt temps. Antimony contributes strongly to the lowered melt temp of ww alloy. The small antimony addition lowers the melt temp, instead of raising it-- even though antimony has a much higher melt temp than lead. This is just a basic thermodynamic property of the intermetallic bonds.

Again, thank you for your comments and sharp eye. Regards, and good shooting.

[Wayne Smith]

what am I going to do with 3000 32 acp bullets EH.

Sam

Keep Mrs. Grey Wolf happy??

[gray wolf]

OK it's the next day here,and it's raining, what else is new Eh ?
Just to make it clear----
yes the mix is WW+range lead+powdered and small 22 bullets and a little more than a 1/3
lead pipe.
There is not much air over my casting pot because it has a good amount of saw dust over the melt. But the smelting pot has a definite air flow over it.
IF MY MELT IS NOT CONTAMINATED it looks like the problem may be
# 1 overheating the melt--I have no thermometer.
# 2 over fluxing
# 3 fighting the oxide layer on top of the melt.

All of you have jogged my memory a little and I just recalled the first melt I did this year.
I was new to this smelting furnace and kept the heat low ( didn't now what to expect )
The metal mix was close to the same as I have now, perhaps a little less pure.
I had a lot of old lubed bullets in the mix so there was a lot of old lube in there.
As the metal melted so did the lube. I got a heavy brown 1/8" thick slick on top of the melt from the melted lube. The mix had just come to liquid so It didn't fire off the lube.
It just sat on top of the melt and smoked. I stirred the mix skimmed it off 2 times. it still had the oil from the lube on top. the metal under the lube slick stayed nice and shiny.
I just dipped through the lube slick into the metal and poured it into the ingot molds.
The ingots were very nice looking but they hardened with a greasy coat of lube on them.
It didn't seem to hurt anything, I wiped some of it off the cool ingots and put them in the casting pot. It just seem to help flux the casting pot. As I remember I did not have to fight the gray oxide --I never even had it to deal with.
Now my last melts seem to burn off the flux very quickly and bang zoom the oxide forms.
To me it is starting to sound like to much heat, What say you all ?
I just can't swing a thermometer but I am going to try very hard not to over heat the next mix, I will see if it helps retard the oxide layer from forming. I will also try and keep the ash layer from the saw dust on top of the melt and just dip through it, or keep a layer of some kind of oil on top and dip through that. I will do this after I skim off the dross the first time or two.
Thank you all for staying with me on this one and all the good advise so far.
If it can be done --we can do it--we will do it.
No sinkers here--BULLETS.
Stay with me men on this one. I will post updates--darn rain.

Sam

[sagacious]

Sam,
Yes, could easily be too high heat. But with more pure lead in the mix, the melt will form oxide faster than a straight ww melt will. Just try to keep the temp a bit lower and don't fight the oxide more than is practical.

"Over fluxing" is not the problem, it's not fluxing correctly. Some lead alloys are less sensitive to the exact fluxing procedure-- some are more sensitive. Stirring after the wax had burned off is not fluxing, as the flux is no longer very chemically active. Stirring after the wax burns off actually makes the problem worse, as it wets the dross and oxides and 'mixes' them back in, where they are hidden from view. Get/make a long handled spoon for stirring while the wax is melted/burning. You can use a stainless hose clamp to secure a large stainless thirftstore spoon to 24" of broomstick. Works very well for fluxing, skimming, and other melt-maintenance chores.

Looks to me like you're definitely headed toward solving some problems and fixing this latest batch of lead, so keep us posted. Good luck!

[BD]

I don't know about all the advice to use high heat and vigorous stirring when smelting.

My theory is to use a tall, narrow "pot", (mine is a piece of 8" pipe 14" tall with a bottom welded on). I put everything but the tin in and melt it it to liquid, then I skim the clips, valve stems and cigarette butts of the top. I keep the melt at a low temp, but liquid, for 20 minutes or so and stir it occasionally with a piece of rebar. During this time most everything that's not alloyed floats to the top where I skim it off with an old serving spoon that I've drilled full of holes.

When everything looks clean I stick a cube of fresh potato on a coat hanger and run it through the the bottom of the mix. This boils a bit and brings up the small ganules of stuff that looks like black sand and I skim that off. As much of my range scrap comes from gravel pits, I think the little granules probably are sand.

Then I add 2% tin and stir it in. After a minute or so I start pouring ingots by pushing the dross to the side with the spoon while I fill my ladle and pour the muffin ingots into an old cast iron muffin pan.

This takes awhile as I only have two of the muffin pans and they don't cool off too fast after the first couple of fills. But it does give me clean ingots which I can dump in the casting pot with little or no subsequent fluxing or stirring as I cast. I last emptied and cleaned my casting pot in 2005. I think it stays cleaner by keeping it full and covered with clay kitty litter. I have no issues with crud in my boolits.

IMHO time in the liquid state and molten column thats taller than it is wide are your friends. Surface area exposed to the air, excess heat and excess agitation work against you.
BD

[gray wolf]

Here are some Pics of the lead I am having the problem with.

Pick # 1 is the melting pot Just after I pulled asside some of the saw dust from the top. It is nice and shiny.

Pic. #2 is the melting pot--I have removed the saw dust and slid my spoon over the top and draged half of the very top layer to the side, half way across the top of the pot. 30 seconds after the flux was removed.

Pic # 3 is the back side of a muffin pan ingot.

Pic #4 is the front side of the same ingot --notice the gray sludge area.

Pic. # 5 is another ingot front side gray sludge again as soon as the flow stops.

[Wayne Smith]

Looks to me like a perfect picture of oxides forming.

[gray wolf]

What kind? Good ones or bad ones?

[sagacious]

Sam,
Thanks for the photos. As suspected, that's just oxides forming. Completely normal-- not a sign of alloy contamination.

If the gray oxide scum gets continually stirred in, it'll cause the entrained oxide problem you experienced. Stirring after fluxing can cause this. "Entrained" just means that the gray oxides got dragged along with the stirring spoon and mixed in. Flux/stir, skim, done.

Fluxing with wax will reduce most of that gray scum back to clean metal, and I detailed batch removal of entrained oxides in post #15 if you want to go that route. Good luck.

[Wayne Smith]

Just flux it back in. It's bad in that lead oxides are more readily absorbed into the body so you really don't want to play with them. As you noticed in your first melt, if you have a boundary layer of some sort (you used lube) you don't get oxides as your melt is not exposed to oxygen in the air. People use kitty litter (clay) as a boundry layer, and sawdust can accomplish the same thing. You can dip through this layer and not have to deal with the oxides.

I ladle pour, I simply push them to the side until I get enough built up to be bothersome, flux, and keep on pouring. If you have clean alloy it all gets fluxed back in and you don't even have to skim, just dip and pour.

Oh, those who know, not me, say that tin oxidizes first, so much of that is probably tin oxides rather than lead. You really do want that back in the melt.

[gray wolf]

Thank you SAGACIOUS and thank you WAYNE SMITH
I am so glad I stayed with this and you stayed with me. So it looks like the metal is OK, good.
I guess I was fluxing bass ackwords, my problem was not being able to get near the melt when the wax was burning, I waited till the flame died down so I wouldn't get burned.
Well I have a nice stick and a hose clamp. I will do as you say in post #15.
Now the metal that I have in the pot and the ingots I made ? can I handle them the same way? or do I have to remelt everything ?
Or Can I just heat up the casting pot, flux, skim off the dross if any, put saw dust on the top
to stop the oxides and cast my bullets.
This has been a very good lesson for me and I hope it can help someone else who may have a problem.

Sam

[sagacious]

Now the metal that I have ... do I have to remelt everything ?
Or Can I just heat up the casting pot, flux, skim off the dross if any, put saw dust on the top to stop the oxides and cast my bullets.
Now that you've got your fluxing down, you can go either way. Some folks like to flux/pour ingots in batches. But there is no requirement to do it that way.

If you do your 're-fluxing' a bit at a time while casting with your bottom-pour, you can also get good results. Since fluxing and stirring at the wrong time/wrong way has been eliminated, you can probably expect somewhat smoother casting sessions. Less frustration-- that's something positive to look forward to!


This has been a very good lesson for me and I hope it can help someone else who may have a problem.
Sam,
Congrats go to you. Many folks have difficulty with changing their routine, even when it's not working as well as it might. You provided enough info to diagnose the likely problems, and you've been able to correlate and adopt the fixes. That's to be commended. Makes life easier for everyone!

Regards, and good shooting.

[qajaq59]

This might be a good thread for a sticky. It covers a lot of info that would be useful to the new guys.

[excess650]

I try to make my alloy in a dutch oven so as to make as large quantity as I can in a single batch. I heat over a propane fired plumber's furnace, fluxing and skimming as the **** floats to the top. When it looks pretty clean, I pour ingots with a Rowell bottom pour ladle. If something is floating on top, it stays there as the ingot metal is drawn from the bottom of the ladle.

Cleaned ingots go into my 20# Lyman and Lee electric pots. Both WERE originally bottom pour pots, but have been plugged and used exclusively with a ladle. I get much nicer bullets with a ladle.

[gray wolf]

Well everything went very well today. I did not re smelt my metal, I turned on the pot and let my metal get liquid ( i let it come to full melt ). I skimmed off the old saw dust and melted wax on the top. and stirred it in well, the metal was very clean because it was smelted so many times so I had very little dross on top. Then I covered the melt with saw dust and left it alone. The wax did not flame up, only smoked ( hint to the Temp. ) I cast some nice HP's and some nice 228 RN. I was happy.
Here is a funny thing, --all this was done with my 10# bottom pour pot set on 4.5--I wish I new what temp that was.
If I went any higher the bullets got funky looking, If I went directly into the center of the mold with the stream--they got funky--I had to swirl the metal into the mold a little off set of the sprue hole. If I varied it a little bit --yup--funky bullets.
Both molds showed the same ruff surface if I changed the pouring style. If I went up to # 6
on the pot it was to hot, trying to slow down made the mold to cold.
But the bottom line is that with the right help, and doing the best I could to explain my problem is what I feel helped solve the issues I was having.
Funny thing here--when I cast pure for my smoke pole I also cast at about #4.5 or #5 on my pot. My pure lead 470 grain BP bullets are perfect castings, no voids and good fill out.
So my metal proved it self to be OK, I corrected my fluxing, I stopped stirring the pot every 10 Minutes, and I found the correct setting for my pot with that particular mix of metal.
Now you all can pat yourselves on the back, I can sleep tonight, and the wife won't have to listen to me wine. The dogs get a Cookie and all is well.

Sam

[sagacious]

Sam,
If 4.5 is OK for pure, it'll definitely be plenty hot for alloy. As you found, hotter is not always better.

Here's a note on 'swirl.' I had a few molds that were very particular about the metal swirling through the gate/sprue. This can sometimes be a sign of poor or inadequate venting, so be sure to check your vent lines right where they contact the edge of the cavity. Make sure they are clear.

After verifying that the vents are clear, I have found that on molds that continue to show a 'swirl' preference, opening the sprue hole by .02" or .03" (two or three hundredth's) changes the fill dynamics radically by reducing the fluid friction that the molten metal experiences during the swirl. The lead then swirls in FAST, and loses less heat, so fillout is faster and better. Production rate and quality go up noticeably. Makes a big difference, and can make a once finicky mold a pleasure to use.

You can open the hole with a bit .02" larger than the existing opening, and sharpen the sprue cutting edge using a countersinking bit if necessary. If someone has a finicky mold that has filling or fillout problems, give it a try. Good luck.