I am about to give up casting

[walker77]

I have been trying casting for almost a year. I keep having leading issues. But i figured at first it was just a learning curve. This weekend i tried shooting my 44 mag again and its still leading. Im about to just say screw it. This is where i stand

S&W 629

9.0 unique with large pistol primers

.430 barrel

.433 reamed cylinder

Im using wheel weight with solder (from walmart) that is 98% tin and they are water dropped

lyman 429421 Shimmed dropping bullets at .433

I have been using Carnauba Red, but switched to something called jakes lube i found on ebay because the carnauba sticks to everything, including the bottom of the bullet. It seems the leading has got worse since i changed, maybe my imagination. Anyone else try this lube?

I am going to try gas checks, but if that doesnt work, thats it. Is there anyone reading this in the kansas city area that could help me? Thanks guys

[Fugowii]

I've yet to find a combo that doesn't lead some. I've learned to accept what I do get and deal with
it. I use Kroil and a jag with choreboy to loosen up the leading and then patches soaked in the
Kroil. It's more work than I would like but it isn't too bad. My biggest problem I have had is with my
M28 and the lead is landing on the cylinder and it is a beeatcchhhh to remove. What powder and
load are you using in the 629? I'm changing my powder on my M28 to see if that will cut down on
the leading.

[Cherokee]

Tell us about the load you are using as that may help in identifying the problem. You say the barrel is .430 so this means you slugged it ? Where is the leading: forcing cone, down the barrel, near the muzzle ? How much leading ? More info will help.

[Blammer]

take one of your loaded rounds and use an inertia bullet puller and pull the bullet from the brass and measure the bullet diameter. Is it still .433?

stop water dropping them, let them air cool, have you tried that yet?

[jrayborn]

Well I am no expert, I have had good luck recently by simply switching powders in .45 long colt. I was getting pretty heavy leading within the first couple inches of barrel (4" Ruger Redhawk) using Laser Cast bullets and Unique. I started low and worked up to a heavy charge and just couldn't get the lead to go away. Read somewhere about trying a powder with a different impulse so I decided to give 2400 a chance and what a difference.

I am loading 19 grains and get real good accuracy, about 1100 fps and honestly no leading. This took me over a year to get worked out too. Every time I read about someone getting no leading I figured they were getting some and I never believed you could shoot without at least a little lead in the bore. Trust me it is possible.

Lesson here is to not give up! Keep reading and looking for help, you WILL figure it out.

Good luck!!

Jon

[StarMetal]

How much solder (see you said it was 98 % tin) are you putting in with those WW's? If more then 2 % there's an issue right there.

My load was WW's water dropped over 10 grains of Unique when I had my 44 mag Smith. It was the Saeco 240 TC nose bullet gas checked.

[anachronism]

Is this the only gun you've tried cast in? S&W revolvers are famous for thread choke. If you have it, and it's not dealt with, you don't stand a chance. Have you tried any other loads? 9.0 gr of Unique is well below the starting charge in My older Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook. You might simply need to build a bigger fire under your bullets.

[walker77]

How much solder (see you said it was 98 % tin) are you putting in with those WW's? If more then 2 % there's an issue right there.

My load was WW's water dropped over 10 grains of Unique when I had my 44 mag Smith. It was the Saeco 240 TC nose bullet gas checked.

The package doesnt give a weight. It comes in one of those small coiled tubes, i just drop the whole thing in it.

[walker77]

Is this the only gun you've tried cast in? S&W revolvers are famous for thread choke. If you have it, and it's not dealt with, you don't stand a chance. Have you tried any other loads? 9.0 gr of Unique is well below the starting charge in My older Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook. You might simply need to build a bigger fire under your bullets.

I just tried my first cast of 9mm this weekend through my sig P6 and got a lot of leading in it from only running one mag through it. But im not about to dismiss that yet, because it could be a velocity issue, and that could be my problem with the 44 mag too. I just bought a chronograph, but forgot to take it with me this weekend.

[walker77]

take one of your loaded rounds and use an inertia bullet puller and pull the bullet from the brass and measure the bullet diameter. Is it still .433?

stop water dropping them, let them air cool, have you tried that yet?

Keep in mind its a shimmed mold, so the bullet is only .433 at its largest point.

[Heavy lead]

I'm thinking you need to have someone send you some .434 boolits to try. The last Smith 44 I had, had a .4285 throat, that .433 throat is a hard one to fill. I'm sure someone would help you out with that if asked. I would, but I just don't have a mould that casts that big.

[littlejack]

anacronism:
What is "thread choke"? I don't even know what it is, but my 57 must have it. I have shot ww's in it since it was new in 1972 and it has always leaded. I have learned to live with it. Now that I use the "Choreboy" method of cleaning, it is not a problem at all. I don't even use a solvent, and with a dozen strokes, all of the lead is gone. I would recommend that everyone get a Choreboy.
I just bought a new Uberti "Evil Roy" 45 Colt a couple of months ago, and the leading is nonexistant after a shooting session. Go figure?
Jack

[RobS]

walker77:

First off let me say it is not a velocity issue; it is a pressure issue more so, but many times as the velocity increases so does the pressure. Bullet fit is something you have a good concept of it sounds like.

Now, I have a few more questions on the 44 mag. Cylinder throats to bore's groove diameter sounds good, but 1. do you have a constriction in that bore anywhere? Simply make a tight jag if you have one and put a patch or patches over the jag, oil it up, and push it through the barrel. You shouldn't feel any tight spots. Take special note and feel where the barrel screws into the frame and also near the forcing cone. If you have no constrictions, everything is smooth and consistent feeling in the bore your gun is yet closer to being put together well enough. 2. The last thing is to check the barrels throat (where the forcing cone and the rifling start). Simply put yourself in a slug and press it from the chamber end with a piece of wood through the forcing cone. I fold up a rag to make sure I don't mess up the crown of the barrel as you will have to push pretty hard to make impressions. When you first start to see the rifling marks on the slug you went in far enough, just measure this part of the slug. Of course you will have to take a wooden dowl from the muzzle end to push the slug back out. Sometimes this can be larger than the barrel and can be the start for gas blow by. I doubt this is an issue however.

Should all this check out and assuming the bore is not rough we are down to the casting/sizing-lubing/reloading. I would tell you that you are probably not crazy on the Jakes lube vs the Carnauba Red with the Jakes giving you more leading if the Jakes is the Moly or Purple Cercin as it is a hard lube. Should the Jakes lube be the 50/50 lube it should be ok…………I bet it’s not the 50/50 since you don’t like sticky.

You stated that you beagled your mold to drop a bullet at .433 and I ask is this bullet .433 all the way around the bullet? If it is not and is the same diameter or under the .430 bore there is another possibility for gas blow by to occur.........especially if the bullet is super hard as it will not be able to obturate or slug up to the bore's diameter as easily.

Now a very important one here is after you seat and crimp the bullet what is that bullet doing? Blammer has it right about the possibilities of the bullet being swaged down during the seating and crimping stage of reloading. I wrote up a lengthy thread not too long ago talking about this specifically and how it related to my experiences. You really need to seat and crimp a bullet and then pull that baby to see if it is still a good fit for your revolver. Make sure that you measure the very edge of the bullets base to make sure it is close to what you need for a bullet diameter. This was my problem all along with soft bullets has I was sizing them perfectly for my revolver and when I shot them I had leading that wouldn't stop.

There are two options here if your bullet is swaged down and since you are already maxed out with your bullet diameter (beagled the mold already) then sizing to a larger bullet to combat the swage during the seating and crimping stage will not be an option. The other means to ensure your bullet will be of right diameter is to buy yourself an expander plug to open up the brass to a diameter that won't swage the bullet.

I originally chose to size my bullet larger so when the brass squeezed down the bullet it would be the right diameter, but ran into the problem of the front drive band (band outside the case)being too large to fit in my cylinder throats. I know own an expander die that is .001 smaller than my bullet diameter and it's a dream for my cast boolits.

Lastly powder selection is something that can give more issues when a bullet is undersized. A slower powder will work better as it will not have the higher pressures at the initial ignition, but rather lower pressures at the start and build as the bullet makes its way down the barrel. A faster powder will push a bullet harder into the forcing cone and into the start of the barrel due to the higher energy which can cause a bullet to skid on the lands but also the fast powder has higher pressures and gives for a greater chance of gas blow by. This doesn't happen with fast powders at lower end loads however as the pressures are not high enough to create a problem and a decent lube will combat most of the expanding gases. Faster powders create problems only when they are used to push mid house loads to upper end loads with a bullet that doesn't fit the revolver. I would consider your 9 grain Unique load a prime candidate to what I am saying here.

This is all a consideration to help out and is by no means an absolute.

FWIW

[Dan Cash]

Walker,
If you will send me a postal address, I will send you some fatter bullets to try. I think you are getting blowby.
Dan

[RobS]

Walker,
If you will send me a postal address, I will send you some fatter bullets to try. I think you are getting blowby.
Dan

I bet he is too.

[462]

Walker77,
I had leading problems with a S&W 624 (.44 Special), and, like you, was about to call it quits and shoot jacketed, only Nothing I did made any sort of improvement. Here's what, eventually, worked for me. You may get different results.

1. Size your boolits .001" over cylinder throat diameter. If you size smaller, the boolit may be leading in the throat, ergo, it will lead in the forcing cone and breech end of the barrel. (You didn't say where the leading is, so I'm just guessing that it's starting in the cylinder throat.) I enlarged a .431" sizer die to .433" to acommodate the .432" cylinder throats.

2. Switch to a slower powder. 2400 is perfect.

3. Air cool the boolits.

4. Try a mixture of 50/50 or 75/25 clip-on wheel weights/stick-on wheel weights.

5. Added tin is not necessary, unless you are getting poor fill out/ill defined shape.

Jake's lube has never let me down, in either handgun or rifle. No need to change. You don't say which lube you are using, but I mix one stick of his Purple Ceresin with half a stick of his Alox/beeswax.

Make one change at a time and inspect the results, before moving to the next. It may be impossible to eliminate all traces of leading, but you should be able to reduce it to the point where accuracy isn't effected when shooting 50-rounds, and clean is easy.

Finally, and this is the most important part: Don't give up! Now, go back and read the bold-face words again.

I know how frustrated you are feeling. I was, once. Hang in there, and with your fellow member's help, it will come right and you will be floating on air. All of this is part of the casting experience and will help you with other moulds and guns. You are not failing, you are learning what doesn't work. It's all positive.

Now, start anew and keep us informed of your progress.

[RobS]

Walker77,


Jake's lube has never let me down, in either handgun or rifle. No need to change. You don't say which lube you are using, but I mix one stick of his Purple Ceresin with half a stick of his Alox/beeswax. The mix I believe would work well. I actually work the other direction with Lar's Carnauba Red with about an 1/8 to 1/4 stick of his Commercial Red (stiffer lube that is not on his site) to make it so it isn't tacky

Make one change at a time and inspect the results, before moving to the next. Definately the way to go with this problem as one variable is easier work than several
.

And like was said: Don't give up just yet. :D

[walker77]

I just pulled one of the bullets and it was .432 at its largest part. I really dont know what to do to get larger bullets. Ive tried everything suggested on the site with the mold. I tried shimming it, i tried more tin for better fill. I just dont know..... And i am out of a job, so i dont have money to buy a custom mold, and too much time on my hands to not play around with the hobby.

[RobS]

What is that bullet at it's smallest diameter???

[walker77]

its .430

[454PB]

If your barrel and cylinder throat measurements are correct, the boolits are not the problem. I agree with the barrel restriction causing the leading.

How did you measure the barrel groove diameter? S&W barrels are notoriously hard to measure due to the odd number of grooves.

[walker77]

I used an over sized bullet and measured it

[RobS]

its .430

That could be some of it. A super hard bullet pushed out with a fast powder where the bullet has no chance of obturating or bumping up to fit the barrels throat and bore and you could have yourself a receipt for leading.

[HeavyMetal]

Dan Cash said he would send you some fatter boolits, suggest you send him a PM with your address.

While they are in route I will suggest you check your expander die. Since you have pulled a boolit from a loaded round and found it slightly smaller than when you seated it I will suspect your expander plug is to small in diameter. The case may be "sizing" the boolit as you seat it!

This condition, while suitable for jacketed, is not condusive to accuracy with lead boolits. I will suggest you get, or make, and expander plug .002 under boolit diameter, that is to say the boolits you want to shoot not what the "factory" says they are supposed to be.

After you make sure your expander die is correct do as others have suggested and check that barrel for tight spots in or near the barrel / frame joint.

If all this checks out bump your load to 10 grains of Unique and shoot the boolits Dan is sending.

Now lets talk alloy: you say your using wheel weight metal and some tin. Clip on or stick on WW'S? Some disagreement abounds on composition of WW metal these days but the general consenses is that stick on WW are pretty much pure lead whle the clip on's have some Antimony in them as well as a minimal amount of tin ( like .05%)

I will get some disagreement on this but I have always felt that tin was add to help fill out and Antimony, when the boolits are "quenched" directly from the mold, makes them much harder than air cooling.

Food for thought on the ww metal you are using.

Last thing I gotta know: how do you make Lar's Carnuba Red "sticky"?

I've used it for awhile and, after it cools off from the heater under my Star, I have never had it get sticky in any way.

[walker77]

Dan Cash said he would send you some fatter boolits, suggest you send him a PM with your address.

While they are in route I will suggest you check your expander die. Since you have pulled a boolit from a loaded round and found it slightly smaller than when you seated it I will suspect your expander plug is to small in diameter. The case may be "sizing" the boolit as you seat it!

This condition, while suitable for jacketed, is not condusive to accuracy with lead boolits. I will suggest you get, or make, and expander plug .002 under boolit diameter, that is to say the boolits you want to shoot not what the "factory" says they are supposed to be.

After you make sure your expander die is correct do as others have suggested and check that barrel for tight spots in or near the barrel / frame joint.

If all this checks out bump your load to 10 grains of Unique and shoot the boolits Dan is sending.

Now lets talk alloy: you say your using wheel weight metal and some tin. Clip on or stick on WW'S? Some disagreement abounds on composition of WW metal these days but the general consenses is that stick on WW are pretty much pure lead whle the clip on's have some Antimony in them as well as a minimal amount of tin ( like .05%)

I will get some disagreement on this but I have always felt that tin was add to help fill out and Antimony, when the boolits are "quenched" directly from the mold, makes them much harder than air cooling.

Food for thought on the ww metal you are using.

Last thing I gotta know: how do you make Lar's Carnuba Red "sticky"?

I've used it for awhile and, after it cools off from the heater under my Star, I have never had it get sticky in any way.

So should i water drop or not? And you really dont get sticky lube? Do you guys think i should try a different reloading die set? Im using lee on my 44 mag.

[RobS]

Die set is fine, my dad uses a Lee set with no problems at all although his groove diameter of his revolvers are tighter than yours being .4285 and .429 respectively. ..............Since your bullets are a bit undersized for your revolver it sounds like I would leave them air cooled so they have the chance to obturate under pressure. Once again, where is the leading starting, where is the build up worse at?

[walker77]

The leading runs from the begining of the barrel to about the middle, then stops. Why would it stop there???? Doesnt make sense.

[Hang Fire]

I started using cast boolits in the 1960s in a Ruger SBH 44 mag and never had a leading problem. And this was using a Lyman 240 grn plain based boolit with the old black and messy Ideal lube and heavy charges of 4227.

We weren't into WW back then, just soft lead and linotype (which was cheap at the time) until we felt had a hard enough boolit, beginners luck maybe.

[walker77]

Ok, thats great, but that doesnt help me any. Not to be rude or anything

[RobS]

The bullet may finally be sealing up as the pressures come down from the faster powders; the gases are possibly not pushing past the bullet any longer and the lube is capable of doing it's job. Have you used slower powders like 2400???

Also many barrels have a slight tapper to them where it funnels down toward the muzzle end this could also be why the bullet stops leading as the gas blow by stops at that point.

[HeavyMetal]

If your alloy is made with stick on WW metal water dropping is a waste of your time!

As for the lube I know Lar's offers several types is it possible you got a 50-50 mix instead of the Carnuba Red? Every stick of "Red" I have ever used has needed a heater to get it to flow out of the lube sizer.

If you don't have a lube heater of some type then your not using Carnuba Red!

Die maker is not as important as the realization that the makers do not think "lead" any more. The exception are the die sets aimed at the "Cowboy" shooting sport.

I would pull the expander plug out of your lee die set and "mike" it for diameter.

Bet it comes out between .427 and .429. No matter what it needs to be checked so you can move on to the next possible problem area.

Here's what I think, provided you don't have a mechanical issue like a tight bore area,

Your load is a little light, your boolits are a little small, and I suspect, a little soft.

But that's nothing more than a WAG and should be treated as such until you personally check each and every item and suggestion that has been given to you.

Because some where in the answers you've recieved is the cure for your problem.

[RobS]

I have another question for you??? Before you seat the bullets what is the smallest diameter of a given bullets base?

[RobS]

[QUOTE=HeavyMetal;910465]

Die maker is not as important as the realization that the makers do not think "lead" any more. The exception are the die sets aimed at the "Cowboy" shooting sport. Most definately............all dies these days are set specs for jacket bullets (smaller diameter bullets)

Your load is a little light, your boolits are a little small, and I suspect, a little soft.
QUOTE]

He is water dropping WW alloy........I think he is too hard if they are clip on WW's.

[schutzen]

Follow the advice to use 2400. I have used it for 30 years in my M29 and have no leading issues with mid-range loads. It is a dirty powder and you will be cleaning powder residue, but no lead.

[walker77]

Yes, they are clip on WW

[StarMetal]

What size pot do you cast with? Say it's a 10 pound capacity pot. Just figure 1-2 % percent of that for tin.

I've shot bullets that had way too much tin in them (not my castings) and they leaded my barrel severely. Going back to "normal" cast bullet it doesn't lead at all.

Smiths are hard to mic the groove diameter because of the five grooves. You need a pipe mic. Anyways somehow get an accurate measurement of the groove diameter. The cylinder throat ideally should be larger then the groove diameter for cast. If the cylinder throats will allow a larger bullet, size your bullet .001 to .002 over the groove size and go from there. Also, unless you're getting some fill out problems, don't add anymore tin to your alloy. A lot of us are shooting 50/50 alloy which is WW's/pure-lead....no tin added. Give this a shot and see what happens.

[walker77]

Its the lyman bottom pour.

[walker77]

ok, i just weighed one of those coils that i bought at walmart, and it weighs 255 gr. If i figured it up right, a 10lb ingot should use 3 of those solder coils. Right?

[RobS]

I see it as needing 1,400 grains for 2% and 700 grains for 1% at 10 lbs of lead

[walker77]

Right, thats what i came up with. So really, im not even putting enough tin in it. So that shouldnt be an issue. I think you are on the right track about it not sealing up till the end of the barrel. What kind of lube do you use?

[RobS]

Carnauba Red with about an 1/8 to 1/4 of a stick of Commercial Red to take out the tackiness. If you have a chance, what is diameter of a bullet that hasn't been seated and crimped.

[walker77]

Its .433 at the largest point

[RobS]

Yep, I seen that............I ment to ask what is the smallest diameter.

[walker77]

.430 is the smallest i seen

[RobS]

before seating?

[walker77]

Yeah, its the same

[RobS]

OK............well here is how she goes as I see it. With the bullet being right at the groove diameter you are going to have a harder time sealing the bore with a water quenched clip on WW boolit (too hard to obturate/bump up) . If you use an air cooled WW one there is the possibility that it may swage down even smaller, but maybe not.......as the brass may work on the fatter side of the bullet and leave the smaller diameter side alone. The only way to figure it out is to seat, crimp, pull and check the bullets base. This can all be eased however by using an expander die as such made my Lyman; the Lyman M die series.

It does in fact look like a larger bullet would work better by all practical means although you may be able to get the current bullet to work yet. The possibility of lapping out the cavities with fine lapping compound could enlarge those cavities.

What does the mold cast out at without beagling the mold as you may try to trade for mold that cast out larger as there are some people who would rather have a smaller diameter bullet, especially if they are pan lubers.

[462]

Walker77,
It sounds as if you've regained some confidence and are willing to continue. That's the spirit.

If lube was the problem the leading would be toward the muzzle. You are experiencing leading at the forcing cone and breech end of the barrel, which indicates a boolit fit problem.

Your seating die is downsizing the boolit .001", not a lot, granted, but enough that it could cause gas cutting. All my Lee seating dies were sizing boolits down to jacketed dimensions. They have all been replaced with either Lyman or RCBS...no more downsizing. Until I replaced the dies (like you, a money situation) I enlarged the seating die, using 400, 600, and 1200 well oiled wet-dry paper wrapped around a dowel chucked in a drill. Go slow, clean the die often, and size a boolit until it no longer gets reduced in diameter. Someone is sending you fatter boolits, but the seating die will take them back down to .432". That's not going to work unless you enlarge it.

With your added information, my take is that the boolit is too hard, the powder is too fast, and the seating die is negating all the hard work you put into getting a fatter boolit.

[walker77]

What kind of powder do you suggest? I need something CHEAP!

[RobS]

Well...........as it is nothing is cheap these days and I see your point in using unique as it will load twice as many rounds as 2400....with regards to same velocity/grain charge.......but 2400 will be your best bet if you don't change anything else.

Possibly I would look into your reloading practice and find a case sizing die that doesn't resize the case to jacket bullet diameter such as what RCBS makes with their cowboy dies or get yourself a Lyman M-die to expand the case after it has already been sized with your current resizing die. The Lyman M Die however will need a larger expander as the factory one is .427 with a .431 step. Buckshot a member here can make these for I believe $17 to whatever diameter you want.

http://www.lasc.us/Brennan_LymanMDies.htm


I have a five station press and this is how I have the press set up.
Station one: Resize/decap
Station two: prime and use Lyman M-die with a plug .001 smaller than intended bullet diameter
Stage three: Powder and flare
Stage four: seat the bullet
Stage five: crimp the bullet

[RobS]

Here is a link to MidwayUSA detailing those RCBS cowboy dies:

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=436077

Built to slightly different dimensions than the regular RCBS dies to allow optimum sizing, expanding, seating and crimping needed to load great lead bullet ammo. Heat treated for a more authentic appearance. Handsome brass lock rings and period style packaging complement these premium dies. Shellholder sold separately. Carbide Dies require no case sizing lube.

Technical Information:
Material: Polished and Heat Treated Steel

Die Types Included:
•Sizer Die (with decapping unit)
•Expander Die (for expanding and belling case mouth)
•Seater Die (with roll crimp)

Notes:
•Seater die designed for use with CAST BULLETS ONLY.
•Built to slightly different dimensions than regular dies to allow optimum sizing, expanding, seating and crimping needed to load lead bullet ammunition.
•Lifetime Guarantee from RCBS
•Shellholder not included.

[RobS]

Lyman M-Die MidwayUSA info:

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=121454

[RobS]

[QUOTE=462 ;910565]
Walker77,
Until I replaced the dies (like you, a money situation) I enlarged the seating die, using 400, 600, and 1200 well oiled wet-dry paper wrapped around a dowel chucked in a drill. Go slow, clean the die often, and size a boolit ???? until it no longer gets reduced in diameter. Someone is sending you fatter boolits, but the seating die will take them back down to .432". That's not going to work unless you enlarge it.
QUOTE]

Why would you enlarge the seating die and how would you do this. The die itself shouldn't touch the case in any shape or form until it puts a crimp on and the seating stem should effect the bullet's diameter either................so I'm confused here. The seating die merely pushes the bullet into the case and crimps the mouth of the brass. It doesn't size down the case nor the bullet as the die doesn't touch the loaded round anywhere else or at least not in my experiences.

Is it not the brass case that swages down the bullet in what we are discussing here??? The brass from being too small in diameter is what the problems is. The Lyman M die simply enlarges/expands the brass case so a bullet can be seated without it being swaged down. The RCBS cowboy dies is two fold as the case sizing die is at a larger spec than the normal 44 mag/special die and is optimized for sizing the brass for cast bullets. This set also comes with an expander die that is also larger than the standard set as it too is designed for cast bullets.

[leadman]

You can check for a restriction in the bore with a tight patch on a jag. Either use different materials or double a patch so it is pretty tight going in the muzzle. If something is causing a barrel restriction you will feel it. The most likely restriction is in front of the forcing cone, caused when the barrel is tightened into the frame.

Firelapping will remove a tight spot in the bore and smooth out any machine marks.

The bullet you are using is a great design. In my Ruger Old Model SBH it works really well with up to 20grs of 2400 with 18.5 best, but leads my bore with Unique if the charge is over 7.5 grs.

If you try a lighter charge of Unique and it doesn't lead then you may want to try 2400.
If that doesn't work maybe a custom mold with a small hollow base?

[StarMetal]

Personally I wouldn't put any tin in it, you don't have too. Like I said there are lots of members here using that 50/50 alloy I mentioned.

[lwknight]

Walker , there is a reason that commercial casters use a true 6% antimony and 2% tin mix.
They never use some 50/50 hodge podge recipe.
Even 100% clip weights are only about 3% antimony.
Some guns just require the real deal while others can get by with whatever junk that they can salvage or get for free.

I'm thinking that you either need to get the tin up to a full 5% or get the antimony up to a full 6% and make some real hardcast boolits.

[Bret4207]

[QUOTE=462 ;910565]
Walker77,
Until I replaced the dies (like you, a money situation) I enlarged the seating die, using 400, 600, and 1200 well oiled wet-dry paper wrapped around a dowel chucked in a drill. Go slow, clean the die often, and size a boolit ???? until it no longer gets reduced in diameter. Someone is sending you fatter boolits, but the seating die will take them back down to .432". That's not going to work unless you enlarge it.
QUOTE]

Why would you enlarge the seating die and how would you do this. The die itself shouldn't touch the case in any shape or form until it puts a crimp on and the seating stem should effect the bullet's diameter either................so I'm confused here. The seating die merely pushes the bullet into the case and crimps the mouth of the brass. It doesn't size down the case nor the bullet as the die doesn't touch the loaded round anywhere else or at least not in my experiences.

Is it not the brass case that swages down the bullet in what we are discussing here??? The brass from being too small in diameter is what the problems is. The Lyman M die simply enlarges/expands the brass case so a bullet can be seated without it being swaged down. The RCBS cowboy dies is two fold as the case sizing die is at a larger spec than the normal 44 mag/special die and is optimized for sizing the brass for cast bullets. This set also comes with an expander die that is also larger than the standard set as it too is designed for cast bullets.

Rob, take a sized case and run it through your seating die after carefully measuring. Some dies do alter the case depending on how they're set. The combo seating/crimping dies are very prone to this. Then add in a boolit that's a bit fatter than the die is intended for, a good crimp....you got's a squished boolit.

[Bret4207]

Walker- You have a fit issue, a thou can make the difference. Just for kicks, try seating a boolit, after belling the case mouth enough not to shave lead, by setting the seating plug long, so there's no crimp. Sounds crazy but if the boolit will seat and the case will chamber that may avoid the reduction in diameter you're getting. If that works and reduces your leading you can polish the die out as 462 stated. It might not take much.

What other powders do you have access to?

[Bass Ackward]

Actually I think Walker hit it square on the head in his first post.

Go to a GC design for right now and end the pain. Then you don't have to stand on one foot, left arm over your head and first finger of the left hand in your right ear, while springing up and down praying to the lead fairy to go somewhere else.

Once you do this, you start to have fun. The gun will break in. Before you know it you'll have your confidence back, you begin to learn more, you'll gain experience. The next thing you know, you'll be wanting another crack at that EVIL PB. :grin:

And then you'll have some knowledge and experience to fall back on. But you probably won't need it cause you'll have a better gun. :grin:

[imashooter2]

I shoot the same mold and it drops at .429. My cylinders are .431/.432 and the barrel is .430.

I cast at 14 BHN (air cooled range scrap), lube with Carnauba Red (use more heat and less pressure to keep lube off the bases) and load over 19.5 grains of 2400. This combination does not lead my revolver and I believe that it is because the boolits are soft enough to obdurate under the pressure of the load.

Counter to the popular belief, softer cures as many, if not more, leading problems as harder.

[Blammer]

here's the big issue I think you need to address.

your boolits are too small, you stated they are .430 at the smallest part. You need a fatter boolit.

for a cheap fix you may need to lap your mould out to a larger size.

I think your powder choice is fine, it's the bullet that needs addressing.

Also you stated that a pulled boolit was .432 dia at the largest part. What is the name brand of the dies you are using? I suspect that the seating die is sizing your boolit in the case when you seat it. If you have a way to hone out the seating die to a larger dia you may want to try that, it shouldn't take much. You can also call the maker (Rcbs, comes to mind) explain your problem and see if they can help you, you'll want to tell them you need the seating die enlarged because you need to seat larger bullets without sizing them in the case.

and I also agree you probably need to use a softer boolit, no water dropping

[EMC45]

This may have been said already, but...........I would say softer bullets and slower powder...When I started loading for the 44Mag I bought Lazercast bullets and fell victim to the hype about running them as fast as jacketed. They leaded terribly! I then slowed them down and they still leaded. I then realized they were undersized (.429) and they were too hard!!(they were almost off the SAECO scale!) I use pure clip on WWs and Lyman black Moly lube and 2400 now. My Blackhawk shoots nicely now!!

[243winxb]

The leading runs from the begining of the barrel to about the middle, then stops. Why would it stop there???? The excess diameter (.003") of the bullet has been swaged off into your barrel. Get back to Lyman basics. Size to .430" Air cool, add tin, 8.0gr Unique, NRA type lube 50/50 alox/bees wax. Worry about accuracy, not how much lead is left in the barrel. It takes a good 50 rounds to properly condition the barrel. For cleaning, Hoppes #9, let it soak a day or two. Brush, repeat if needed. So you removed to much metal for the cylinder throat, cant put it back now. :groner:

[RobS]

[QUOTE=RobS;910587]

Rob, take a sized case and run it through your seating die after carefully measuring. Some dies do alter the case depending on how they're set. The combo seating/crimping dies are very prone to this. Then add in a boolit that's a bit fatter than the die is intended for, a good crimp....you got's a squished boolit.

Well, I've never had it happen, but it doesn't mean it does not exiist. So you are telling me as the bullet makes its way up into the die the die itself is too narrow and actually squeezes the brass down on the bullet past the crimp and extends all the way to the bullets base. This possibly could also swage down the front drive band too I am guessing. If this is all so then that sucks!!!

[243winxb]

So you are telling me as the bullet makes its way up into the die the die itself is too narrow and actually squeezes the brass down on the bullet past the crimp and extends all the way to the bullets base. This possibly could also swage down the front drive band too I am guessing. If using oversize bullet you may have to modify you seating die. Very True.

[sniper]

O.K., after reading all of the above, I be totally confused! [smilie=b:

I've noticed this for years, and haven't known what to do about it...figured it's just the way things are.

My 357 Magnum-38 Spl. RCBS carbide sizing die produces cases that, when I load cast or jacketed boolits, after using my Lyman "M" die, the end product looks fine, but the bullet diameter makes a visible enlargement of the case mouth for the length of the boolit inside the case...picture a boa constrictor that has swallowed a gallon paint can! For seating, I use a Dillon Pro-crimp die set to taper crimp the boolit, with just enough of a roll crimp (the Dillon does both) at the end to remove any remaining flare from the case.

That indicates to me that the expander plug in the sizer may be too small, which I think would cause cast boolits be swaged down amazingly, and might produce the small amount of forcing cone leading caused by blow-by that I experience.

Of course, like was mentioned, a copper chore boy works great.

What do you guys think? Am I on the right track?

Based upon the discussion, I am going to call RCBS, and see what they can suggest. Thanks for the hints, pointing me in a direction I had not thought about.

[462]

RobS,
Yes, the Lee seating die was downsizing a .433" boolit to .429"...counter productive to all I'd done to cast and size a boolit that fat. Since replacing them, the problem has been remedied. I'm not saying that all Lee dies will do that, but all of mine did.

Sniper,
Though the boolit is fatter than its jacketed cousin, and the case is swelled in the area in which the boolit has entered, case tension is not enough to downsize it...something else is the cause. If you are experiencing blow by, you may want to pull a boolit and measure it, to be sure it is still the original dimension. Also, seating in one step and crimping in another will eliminate lead shaving and swaging, which are common to a one-step method and can cause leading.

[stang68]

If you use the Lee Factory Crimp Die, it will down size an oversized bullet, for example, my .359 diameter 357 magnum bullets were being downsized to .358. What I did was get another seating die, just the barrel part, and put it in the 4th hole of my turret press instead of the FCD and use that for crimping the bullets that I wanted to be oversized. The seating die in the 3rd hole is set to only seat the bullet, it will not downsize the bullet. This worked out great for me.

[MT Gianni]

Walker , there is a reason that commercial casters use a true 6% antimony and 2% tin mix.
They never use some 50/50 hodge podge recipe.
Even 100% clip weights are only about 3% antimony.
Some guns just require the real deal while others can get by with whatever junk that they can salvage or get for free.

I'm thinking that you either need to get the tin up to a full 5% or get the antimony up to a full 6% and make some real hardcast boolits.

I believe that reason is they can buy a consistent alloy rather than for shooters convenience. I get good groups with straight ww and only add tin if there is a fillout problem. I suggest you can too.

[StarMetal]

I believe that reason is they can buy a consistent alloy rather than for shooters convenience. I get good groups with straight ww and only add tin if there is a fillout problem. I suggest you can too.

Mt, I got a kick out of that post myself. So 50/50 alloy is hodge podge....hmmmmm. Lots of us have down fantastic things with that hodge podge alloy.

Me tends to feel those who use a lot of tin are just followers in the theory that tin is the best thing in the world for your alloy. One day you will learn that too much tin is bad. Like Mt said it helps mainly in letting the alloy fill out the mold cavity better.

[Echo]

Wow. SO much to say, so little bandwidth.

I doubt if the case is swaging down Walker's boolets. He says he is water-dropping them, so they should be hard enough to swell the case, as Sniper has noticed in his efforts.

On the other hand, if he is using Lee FC dies, they are probably the culprits.

And anything over 3% Sn is wasteful - but some is generally a good thing, to reduce the surface tension of the melt and therefore improve fill-out. Boolets should be sharp!

Plus one for 2400 - can't live without it! Magnums and others.

The possibility of a barrel constriction cannot be ignored, and should be checked.

So. >>MY<< recommendations (worth what you are paying for them) are:

!. Stop water-dropping.

2. Use 2400 powder - start @ 19 grains and move up, but not over 22 grains.

3. Crimp as a separate stage - seat, then crimp, and if using a Lee FC crimper - PM me.

4. Check the barrel.

I have spoken.

[walker77]

My biggest question is, will gas checks solve my problem? I have no issues buying gas checks or making my own. The new freechecks system looks like a great set up.

[243winxb]

O.K., after reading all of the above, I be totally confused! [smilie=b:

I've noticed this for years, and haven't known what to do about it...figured it's just the way things are.

My 357 Magnum-38 Spl. RCBS carbide sizing die produces cases that, when I load cast or jacketed boolits, after using my Lyman "M" die, the end product looks fine, but the bullet diameter makes a visible enlargement of the case mouth for the length of the boolit inside the case...picture a boa constrictor that has swallowed a gallon paint can! For seating, I use a Dillon Pro-crimp die set to taper crimp the boolit, with just enough of a roll crimp (the Dillon does both) at the end to remove any remaining flare from the case.

That indicates to me that the expander plug in the sizer may be too small, which I think would cause cast boolits be swaged down amazingly, and might produce the small amount of forcing cone leading caused by blow-by that I experience.

Of course, like was mentioned, a copper chore boy works great.

What do you guys think? Am I on the right track?

Based upon the discussion, I am going to call RCBS, and see what they can suggest. Thanks for the hints, pointing me in a direction I had not thought about.

The FlRS die sizes the brass down more than needed in most all cartridges. Then the expander opens the case mouth to the correct inside diameter. The oversizing is done because the neck wall thickness of brass from brand to brand is not the same. As the dies have to work with all makes/lots of brass, it sized to much. Common. Measure your expander ball. Handguns are about .004" under bullet diameter. Bottle neck rifles, about .002" under bullet diameter.

[243winxb]

Gas checks help, but the alloy still has to be correct.

[StarMetal]

My biggest question is, will gas checks solve my problem? I have no issues buying gas checks or making my own. The new freechecks system looks like a great set up.

It will help...but....you really need to find the source of your leading problem. Personally I don't see having to use a gas check with revolver loads unless you're really blistering with high velocity high pressure loads.

[walker77]

By the way, i have tried H110, and still had leading

[andrew375]

I think your bullets are way too hard. I had a problem with bullets cast from wheel weights and hardened by dropping in to water from the mould, for about 20 bhn. I always had leading in the forcing cone a first inch or so of barrel. Then i read an article in Handloader by Dave Scoville about matching pressures to bullet hardness. Basically if the lead fowling started near the chamber then the bullet was too hard to be upset to seal the bore. I therefore tried some bullets cast from ww but not quenched, about 12 bhn, and got instant success!

I also had the same problem with my .45 auto, again casting the bullets real soft was the cure. In this case I was using more or less pure lead!

So just try some bullets with no heat treatment and see what happens.

[walker77]

I think ill try letting them air dry first since that will be the cheapest thing to try. How long do you guys let them "age" for? Typically i water drop them and shoot them a week later. I really want to do everything i can to stay with unique since its extreamly cheap to shoot. And how much of the lead do i need to get out of the barrel? I have done everything i could and it looks like there is still a little in there. Will that cause me problems?

[Blammer]

A few hours till they are cool is aging enough.

Get a bore mop and some copper chorboy, put a few strands around the bore mop and push it through the brl. It will most likely take all of it out in a few passes.

You'll want to get it all or MOST if you can, before you shoot other stuff in it.

[RobS]

I let mine age for about a week but would probably be good enough after a few days. It would be best to have all the lead out of the barrel so you have something fresh to start with. ChoreBoy or ChoreGirl which are pure copper cleaning pads that can be cut into strips and wrapped around a cleaning brush work well. This along with an oil will take out the toughest leading. They can be found in a food supermarkets in the cleaning section or in the pots and pans section. Walmart carries copper coated cleaning pads.........................DO NOT get these as it is stainless steel and they would do your bore a good bit of damage I would assume. ONLY PURE COPPER SCRUBBING PADS

[44man]

I get very dense over these situations and just can not explain the leading problem. I have been shooting lead since the early 50's and the only time I had leading was when someone gave me soft boolits to try or if I shot certain factory loads.
There are things that I can't explain, so many reasons and so many explanations
I do things all wrong! :mrgreen:
I just recently went through a test with the RCBS boolit, starting with air cooled WW's to water dropped to even harder alloys up to 30 BHN. I used Unique and 231 from starting loads to the hottest.
Now I posted the pictures showing a dramatic increase in accuracy when I reached 28 and 30 BHN and on top of that all of you know I don't like Keith boolits either.
Now look, it is a PB. It measures .429". My bore is .430" and my throats are .4324". IT SHOULD BE NO GOOD!
Now I don't profess to know why this is but I cleaned the bore just now and these are the first two patches with a tight jag, the bore is clean except for a little more carbon. Patches went through like a greased pig, no resistance at all, just tight. I like tight patches on a good jag so I have to tap the rod to start them in the muzzle.
My BFR's do not lead either no matter what load I use.
First the gun and then some 25 and 50 yard targets.
Don't ask, never had those problems since the .38 wad cutter days. Most times I don't know how to answer a fella's question. I hang with all of your answers, a lot of good ones but to tell the truth I don't really know why this has never troubled me. Maybe dumb luck! :castmine:

[walker77]

The answer is here, its just finding the right one. And i think the guys are right when they say try one thing at a time. It just gets frustrating, the only time i shoot is maybe once a month when i go to see the inlaws ( it gives me a good excuse to get out of the house! ) So i dont get to shoot a lot to try things right away.

[44man]

I am baffled too so don't jump on me! :bigsmyl2:
Now I have shot Babore's boolits from my 45-70 BFR at better then 1632 fps. They were cast from 50-50 mix and oven hardened to about 20 BHN.
Not a trace of leading, zero, zip, bore looked like it was chrome lined.
I like hard, tough boolits for accuracy but yes guys, I can also shoot softer and shoot them very fast.
I have read this thread 3 times and I can't put my finger on the solution with certainty.
This will always be a never ending problem. I feel bad for anyone with leading problems. There are so many good ideas here that one has to try everything, just need to work at it because something will fix it.
I don't want anyone to give up and go to those silly condom bullets.

[StarMetal]

I am baffled too so don't jump on me! :bigsmyl2:
Now I have shot Babore's boolits from my 45-70 BFR at better then 1632 fps. They were cast from 50-50 mix and oven hardened to about 20 BHN.
Not a trace of leading, zero, zip, bore looked like it was chrome lined.
I like hard, tough boolits for accuracy but yes guys, I can also shoot softer and shoot them very fast.
I have read this thread 3 times and I can't put my finger on the solution with certainty.
This will always be a never ending problem. I feel bad for anyone with leading problems. There are so many good ideas here that one has to try everything, just need to work at it because something will fix it.
I don't want anyone to give up and go to those silly condom bullets.


Let me ask you Jim, did you put lots of tin in your 50/50 mixture?

[RobS]

[QUOTE=walker77;910895]I think ill try letting them air dry first since that will be the cheapest thing to try. QUOTE]

Actually the cheapest is to double check the revolver for constrictions in the barrel and looking at slugging the barrels throat as you will not be burning up powder and primers working toward the solution. Changing your bullet/alloy/reloading practices would be next which has numerous possibilities.

[walker77]

I really dont think im putting too much tin in my mix. Next time you are at walmart, look in the home improvement area and you will see the solder im using. Its a little coil about 4 inches long. The way i figure it, i should be using 4 of those coils and i am only using 1. I have noticed that my bullets seem brittle. Im not talking about frosting, but they seem to break easy when i try to slug my barrel with them. I really wish some one was in my area to help me out

[walker77]

I also think i should switch back to Carnauba Red

[Three44s]

Forget slugging with bullets that have any hardness to them.

You need a soft lead to slug with ....... and how are you measuring a S&W bore anyway? They are five grooved and it ain't easy.

I would use gas checks if your bullet is designed for them .... no if's or buts.

And I would use WW's ....... no tin .........

Drop to a lower charge of Unique ..... my standard is 8.5 gr. but in your case I would go to 7.5-8 till you get a handle on your situation. If you are using magnum primers, switch to standards.

In my case, I use USP or JB bore paste to lightly hand lap my bores ....... Copper chore boy and Lewis lead remover for bores and forcing cones, respectively.

When I am all done cleaning ....... I switch to CorrosionX and then dry patch the bore and chambers.

One last thing I would try is to top dress your cast and sized boolits with Lee Liquid Alox or the equivalent that is sold here by a member.

The last thing I suggest is to acquire the book from Beartooth Bullets on this subject. It will walk you through bullet fitament and firearm conditioning for lead.

All my guns leaded until I got them internally polished and treated with CorrosionX. Then it became a thing of the past.


Best of luck

Three 44s

[RugerFan]

I just tried my first cast of 9mm this weekend through my sig P6 and got a lot of leading in it from only running one mag through it. But im not about to dismiss that yet, because it could be a velocity issue, and that could be my problem with the 44 mag too. I just bought a chronograph, but forgot to take it with me this weekend.

Have you slugged your 9mm barrel? Many folks are shooting .358-359" dia bullets in their 9mms.

[walker77]

I think i sized mine to 357, but i expected leading on the first try with it, just not this bad. I think lube had something to do with it. The barrel was sugged at .3555

[Doc_Stihl]

Straight WW air cooled with a start charge of Unique and Lars Carnuba and try sizing .001 over bore.

If you can get your hands on some range scrap, or pure, or stick on WW trying mixing that 50/50 with Clip On WW and keep it under 1100 fps.

.003 over bore with a very hard boolit is the cause of your leading in my opinion.

[44man]

Let me ask you Jim, did you put lots of tin in your 50/50 mixture?
Babore cast them and sent me some to try so I don't know if he added tin but when I made my mix once for the .44 I added a little but never reached 2%, I am very stingy with my tin. I never add it to WW's either.
This alloy will cluster 4 shots but I always get a flier and that's OK for deer hunting. It needs a gas check though and PB opens groups very badly. I need to stop the skid at the base.
Out of the 45-70 it was way too destructive on deer when I used Bruce's hollow point at the velocity so I am thinking only 25% pure would better. I really need some expansion with the 45-70 but not that much, I hit the deer behind the shoulder but it came out the off shoulder and I lost most of it.
I will say one thing, Bruce makes one BEAUTIFUL boolit and I am hoarding the few I have left! :drinks:

[fredj338]

I was interested in why you opened the cyl to 0.433" w/ a 0.430" bore? I shoot a lot of aircooled ww, 250grLSWC in my 44mags w/ 9gr of Unique. My groove dia are 0.429"-0.430" w/ throats in the sme range. I get good accuracy & not much leading. The pressure is moderate & this could be the issue w/ your early leading using a hard bullet. I am alos using Lar's CR, but have had good results w/ BAC & Magma lubes as well. Maybe elminate the water dropping to start. One thing at a time.

[walker77]

Because the cylinder was 428

[Bret4207]

[QUOTE=Bret4207;910667]

Well, I've never had it happen, but it doesn't mean it does not exiist. So you are telling me as the bullet makes its way up into the die the die itself is too narrow and actually squeezes the brass down on the bullet past the crimp and extends all the way to the bullets base. This possibly could also swage down the front drive band too I am guessing. If this is all so then that sucks!!!

More or less, yes. It doesn't happen the same with all dies. Some don't seem to do it at all, others seem prone to it, especially if using think brass or oversize boolits. Apparently some are made with more clearance than others.

[Bret4207]

I really dont think im putting too much tin in my mix. Next time you are at walmart, look in the home improvement area and you will see the solder im using. Its a little coil about 4 inches long. The way i figure it, i should be using 4 of those coils and i am only using 1. I have noticed that my bullets seem brittle. Im not talking about frosting, but they seem to break easy when i try to slug my barrel with them. I really wish some one was in my area to help me out

Whoa now. WW alloy boolits shouldn't appear brittle even if you smack them with a hammer. In fact, do that see what happens. You might have a strange lot of alloy there. I've WQ WW alloy boolits to over 30Bhn and they weren't what I'd describe as brittle.

[StarMetal]

Bret is right your alloy shouldn't be brittle esp if it WW's.

You can tell if your seater die is too narrow for a fat cast bullet because it will try to seat it before the seating stem actually touches it.

[Bass Ackward]

My biggest question is, will gas checks solve my problem? I have no issues buying gas checks or making my own. The new freechecks system looks like a great set up.



My advise would be to avoid spending wildly on anything until "you" get some sort of handle on this.

Everything that you listed or did, while not ideal, should work to some degree. Even if it is for just three or four cylinders full. Cast bullets simply aren't that difficult if the gun isn't the problem.

My guess is that here it is. And the only question left in my mind is will a GC defeat it? Do you have a source for some to try?

[Buckshot]

............I find it interesting that this thread has gone to 5 pages overnight. Seems to me no one is very interested in seeing walker77 give up casting :drinks:

.............Buckshot

[walker77]

Yes, i cant tell you guys how much i appreciate your help!

[44man]

I really dont think im putting too much tin in my mix. Next time you are at walmart, look in the home improvement area and you will see the solder im using. Its a little coil about 4 inches long. The way i figure it, i should be using 4 of those coils and i am only using 1. I have noticed that my bullets seem brittle. Im not talking about frosting, but they seem to break easy when i try to slug my barrel with them. I really wish some one was in my area to help me out
Whoa again from me too, Bret is correct. No WW is brittle and you should NOT be slugging with anything but pure lead.
More tin is not going to help you, you have some strange metal.
Do you really know what is in the solder you are using? But 4" is not enough to hurt even if it has something else in it.
I don't want to go back to page one to see what you are using for lead but something is wrong with it and might be where the leading is coming from.
Is it contaminated with zinc or something?

[walker77]

i dont think it has zinc, i kept my heat low when i melted it. But then again, i never had any zinc float to the top either.

[Gohon]

But 4" is not enough to hurt even if it has something else in it.

If he is talking about what I think he is, it is a 4 inch coil that when stretched out would be several feet long. Guessing somewhere between 2 and 4 ounces since the wire is a thin diameter but I wonder what that 2% of unknown metal is (I suspect Copper & Selenium)............ Also unless a thermometer was used there is no way to know what the smelting temperature really was so zinc is a possability. Severe leading, brittle bullets...........sure sounds like a alloy problem but without knowing what the actual smelt temperature was, the ratio of tin wire to WW or unknown metal in solder.............everything is just a guess.

[StarMetal]

Buckshot...and Walker too,

Of course we're very interested in seeing Walker not give up in a hobby that many of us have been doing from when we were very young. We know how rewarding it is and more importantly it keeps the shooting/hunting sport alive which is vitally important in today's anti-gun and anti-hunting political climate.

With that said I feel we need to start the CSA. No that's not the Confederate States of America, it's the Castboolits Shooting Association. We will construction a large shooting facility somewhere suitable in central U.S. We will have a clinic and staff on hand where members having problems, such as Walker, come too and we diagnose their shooting problems whatever it may be casting, firearm, shooting, sights, etc....and they can return home cured and happy.

[45nut]

A reminder,, if everything in casting went perfectly everytime there would be no need for this forum!

[MtGun44]

Note my motto - - - - -

Bill

[Heavy lead]

I'm going to cast some boos tomorrow that I think will work for you. I'll have to send them to you unsized as I only have a .431 die. I believe (if memory serves) that my Mihec 503 clone casts at .433, I can either tumble lube these for you or send them naked your choice, be glad to run you off 50 or so if you want to try. I'm using 50/50 clip on ww's and pure with 2% tin so they are fairly soft and I run 10 grains of Unique with these out of every 44 I have with no issue. Also I'm going to send you some Lee430310 gas checked same alloy sized .431 lubed with BAC (50/50 mixed 50/50 with Carnuba Red) yeah it's sticky, but it works. By George I'm thinking one of these two will work. PM me your address and I'll try to get them to you this week yet. Take us all up on this before you go spending a bunch of money, you may find out what works and what doesn't, I'm glad to do it and I'm sure others are to. I can almost guarantee that gas checked boo won't lead as it's soft enough to obturate (it'll have to since it's only .431).
I'm thinking as a permanant fix to this though you need to get yourself a fat mould, something like a Ranch Dog or something designed to drop .434. But if you can get you some different ones to try you'll figure it out.

[walker77]

That would be great!

[Char-Gar]

1) Stop that water drop nonsense.. your bullets are way to hard and that most likely is the bulk of your problem.
2) I don't know about your lubes... Just by some good old Javalina 50/50 (NRA formula)

If you are still having leading issues, you have a rought barrel or forcing cone.

The question always is what constitutes leading issues. Just about any cast bullet will leave some lead in your barrel along with powder trash. Put a good tight bronze brush on a cleanig rod, and use lots of good solvent. Give the brush about 20 fore and aft strokes in your barrel followed by clean patches. You should not have more than a flake or two of lead deposited on a rough spot. If you have more than that, you have leading issues.

I am afraid too many newbies think cast should shoot as clean as jacketed..taint so.

[mpmarty]

I shoot 10mm, 7.5X55, 308, 45/70 and 45acp. None of these leave lead in the barrel and I cast straight WW air cooled and lubed with BAC or LLA and sometimes both on the same boolits. All rifle boolits are moving at around 1600 to 1800 fps and the 45 and 10mm are loaded on the hot side with Red Dot and 700X. My Savage 308 has never shot anything but cast and it's a tack driving fool when I have a good day.

[walker77]

Rub it in why dont you!

[lwknight]

Walker, I think that sounded like an attempted encouragement more than a " rubbin in "

[walker77]

I was just joking

[Blammer]

:D

Glad to see you got a sense of humor about it, after all it's suppose to be FUN! not work! :)

[Suo Gan]

One last thing I would try is to top dress your cast and sized boolits with Lee Liquid Alox or the equivalent that is sold here by a member.




This has worked for me in my 629. +1 on the beartooth manual as well.

[Crash_Corrigan]

Maybe
I am just too stupid or maybe I am just lucky.....but I have never added anything to my alloy mix other than straight ww's and the strip weights that are glued on the wheel with nasty and foul smelling glue.

I smelt using Pat Marlins California Flake Flux (nice sawdust from chain saw) in a big cast iron dutch oven over a propane burner.

I WD all my cast boolits from 380's to 50-90 Sharps 695 grainers. Although I do use Rotometals 40-1 alloy for the big boomer.

I have never had any problems with fill out in any mold that was not cureable by making sure that the mold was up to temp and the alloy hot enuf.

Of course you can throw all this out the window considering that the source of this information is being brought to you by the same fella who cast boolits for two years with a Lee six banger without handles and only used three gloves to do it with if you do not include the aluminum foil over the first glove.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=41217

[walker77]

No handles? Only gloves? You are either really dedicated or you have some serious issues!

[44man]

No handles? Only gloves? You are either really dedicated or you have some serious issues!
We ALL have serious issues! :holysheep

[rbstern]

Walker, hang in there. When I first started casting, I got leading from some of my loads. I accepted it as part of the price of all the fun I was having, and the money I was saving over commercial bullets. As I learned more and got better at casting and assembling loads that reduced or eliminated leading, I realized some guns were prone to lead more than others. I didn't hesitate to retire those guns from cast shooting, or sell them off in favor of guns that worked better. I am more attached to shooting than I am to any particular gun.

You're getting great help here. All the knowledge you accumulate will help you on this problem, and down the road.

[myg30]

Walker, Dont ever give up man. I've been dealing with leading for long time figured it was part of shooting CB's. Now that im casting my own, I spend way to much time on fixes for it and very little time to shoot them like you. Working up loads that I dont get to shoot for a month or so makes me disgusted on top of "new" cast boolits with new loads also !!
Almost makes me think that 4-5 dozen strokes with patches and cleaners,mops and choy-boy wasnt so bad after all ? Right ? If so many can make a cast boolit,load em and get no or little leading well so can I.
Stick with it, take notes, make a list of fixes, ONE at a time and your day will shine with a clean shinny bore !!!

Good shooting friend,

Mike

[Fixxah]

I will glady allow you to ship all your casting gear to me free of charge. It's the least I can do.

Seriously, you have been given great advice from hundreds of years worth of knowledge. Something simple is the answer, it's finding it that's the hard part. Hang in there, good luck.

[walker77]

Ok, i shot some 44 mag this weekend. Non was water dropped. I got a new gas check mold. It didnt lead at all. But my non gas check mold did. So im starting to think its my lead. I must have got zinc in it. Can some one show me pictures of what to look for with zinc weights?

[old turtle]

I recently got a bunch of ww's and I found some which were zinc. Some were marked "zn" and when you look at the weight marked on them they do look a little smaller than the lead ww's, Also on this site there is a thread devoted to picking the zinc out as I recall. The system which was suggested was to use the INSIDE of a set of regular pliers. Zinc is very hard to dent while the lead ones dent easily. Also if you try to bend a zinc weight it is hard and will break. As I said check out the thread on this site and google the problem.

Good luck

[rmaster14145]

:drinks:, this is a VERY good thread.

walker i understand being out of work and wanting to use what you have. i got laid off last year for several weeks. during that time i got to load, unload, cast, etc. i dont think i bought one thing during the time i was laid off. i used what i had put up. now im working 13 out of 14 days. been working weekends for just over 6 months. im kinda jealous. at least you have some time on your hands to figure out the problem. i finally found me a marlin .357 rifle. i have been looking for one for over a year. i have had it about 3 months and shot it twice. thats two (2) times not taken it two times.

i have some hornady .44 boolits in the garage somewhere. if you would like to try some of those to see how they compare ill send you a few to try out. i dont think i have many tho.

good luck

again, this is a good thread.

rm

[walker77]

I appreciate the offer guys, but i would rather try to get mine to work. Its just going to frustrate me even more if some one elses bullets work fine.

[RobS]

Ok, i shot some 44 mag this weekend. Non was water dropped. I got a new gas check mold. It didnt lead at all. But my non gas check mold did. So im starting to think its my lead. I must have got zinc in it. Can some one show me pictures of what to look for with zinc weights?

Back to the fact that you are sealing up the bore with the gas checked bullets (GC) is a large factor why they worked out. If you sized the GC bullets to .433 (if memory serves me right with your sizing) I bet money that your bullets base on them are .433-.432 should you pull one and it is concentric all the way around which will with no doubt seal the bore and not allow gas blow by. I do not remember if you slugged your barrels throat or not (where the forcing cone and rifling meet) but if it is any larger than your bore of .430 then you are going to have a tough time sealing that gas blow by with the plain base (PB) bullet you are using since it is .430 diameter at the smaller section of the beagled/out-of-round bullet you've pulled.

From my experiences you'll never be able to shoot a hard bullet such as a water quenched WW without leading with your current setup as the bullet will not bump up or obturate to seal the barrel. You will also have a very difficult time keeping leading out of the barrel with a some what undersized softer bullet as there is a greater chance of gas blow by even with the principle that a softer bullet will obturate vs a PB bullet that is a good fit for your intended application. You should however have decent results with the current PB bullet you are casting at mild pressures/velocities such as 6-7 grains of Unique.

If the gun is built correctly: no constrictions in the barrel, barrel is smooth, cylinder throats are larger than the groove diameter, cylinder alignment is right with bore, and the barrels throat is at or under the cylinder throat diameter then it all comes down to sealing up the bore so hot gasses can't melt the bullet to the bore.

It seems as if what I mentioned about the gun being built right is a lot but all of it can be looked over and done in a short while (an hour tops). You already know what your groove diameter is and cylinder throats are which is the most time consuming so you are good there. I can't remember if you checked the rest out or not but it doesn't cost any $$$. Checking these things will cut down on the variables, next look into working with a larger bullet, a bullet that is at least .431 all the way around after seating/crimping and in my experiences it would better at even a larger diameter say .432-.433 after pulling a seated/crimped round.

[RobS]

I must have got zinc in it. Can some one show me pictures of what to look for with zinc weights?

If you have enough zinc to effect what you are doing you'll know it as your bullets will be much harder than normal for WW bullets.

As for what to look for............. a full coating over the weight is a good indicator although good WW's often do to. There may be a rivet like look on the back side of the zinc WW and sometimes it has a Z on them too. I've noticed that some of the zinc ones have square corners vs the lead alloy ones which are smooth in appearance. The easiest way is to keep your smelter at a lower temp (700 degrees or so will work) than what zinc melts at when making ingots. By the way, zink melts at 788 degrees Fahrenheit. The next easiest way is to sort the WW's and ones that look mysterious take a sidecutter and clamp down on one of them..........if it is zinc it will hardly make an imprint.

[walker77]

Back to the fact that you are sealing up the bore with the gas checked bullets (GC) is a large factor why they worked out. If you sized the GC bullets to .433 (if memory serves me right with your sizing) I bet money that your bullets base on them are .433-.432 should you pull one and it is concentric all the way around which will with no doubt seal the bore and not allow gas blow by. I do not remember if you slugged your barrels throat or not (where the forcing cone and rifling meet) but if it is any larger than your bore of .430 then you are going to have a tough time sealing that gas blow by with the plain base (PB) bullet you are using since it is .430 diameter at the smaller section of the beagled/out-of-round bullet you've pulled.

From my experiences you'll never be able to shoot a hard bullet such as a water quenched WW without leading with your current setup as the bullet will not bump up or obturate to seal the barrel. You will also have a very difficult time keeping leading out of the barrel with a some what undersized softer bullet as there is a greater chance of gas blow by even with the principle that a softer bullet will obturate vs a PB bullet that is a good fit for your intended application. You should however have decent results with the current PB bullet you are casting at mild pressures/velocities such as 6-7 grains of Unique.

If the gun is built correctly: no constrictions in the barrel, barrel is smooth, cylinder throats are larger than the groove diameter, cylinder alignment is right with bore, and the barrels throat is at or under the cylinder throat diameter then it all comes down to sealing up the bore so hot gasses can't melt the bullet to the bore.

It seems as if what I mentioned about the gun being built right is a lot but all of it can be looked over and done in a short while (an hour tops). You already know what your groove diameter is and cylinder throats are which is the most time consuming so you are good there. I can't remember if you checked the rest out or not but it doesn't cost any $$$. Checking these things will cut down on the variables, next look into working with a larger bullet, a bullet that is at least .431 all the way around after seating/crimping and in my experiences it would better at even a larger diameter say .432-.433 after pulling a seated/crimped round.

See, thats why i really need some one to come to my house and check my whole set up and see what they think about my gun and my casting set up. Since im just starting out i think im doing everyhting right, but apparently im missing something. But dont forget im also getting leading in my 9mm and my 38spl. I put them across the chrony this weekend and they were all right at 1000 ftps, even the 44mag. Its frustrating, because the cast bullets that my father in law got at a gun show wasnt giving him any leading in his 9mm or his 45. And he was running his 9mm a little faster than i was running my 9mm. I just dont get it

[walker77]

Its hard to keep the smelter low when you are running propane and a dutch oven

[RobS]

PM coming

[giz189]

You know, some of those little coils of solder are also a low content silver solder. I have used them in the past for repairs on stuff. Just another thought. Hope it all works out for you Walker.

[Bret4207]

See, thats why i really need some one to come to my house and check my whole set up and see what they think about my gun and my casting set up. Since im just starting out i think im doing everyhting right, but apparently im missing something. But dont forget im also getting leading in my 9mm and my 38spl. I put them across the chrony this weekend and they were all right at 1000 ftps, even the 44mag. Its frustrating, because the cast bullets that my father in law got at a gun show wasnt giving him any leading in his 9mm or his 45. And he was running his 9mm a little faster than i was running my 9mm. I just dont get it

But did they lead in your guns? Do your loads lead in his? It might be your alloy, yes. That's true. But chances are your alloy can be made to work. I didn't read every post here, but start with the basics. Any zinc contamination will show up in CASTING not in shooting. If you had Zinc problems you'd have some real ugly boolits and problems pouring, things like that. Zinc shoots great! It just doesn't cast well at all when you're used to lead.

My money is on a basic fit issue. Either something is wrong with your static fit (sizing, barrel constriction, etc) or the dynamic fit is giving you issues (pressure, lube, etc.). I'm not a fan of depending on obturation to establish fit, but it works for a lot of people. It can also mess up your fit in the end.

Did you ever get the "brittle boolit" syndrome fixed or establish if they are brittle after all?

[462]

Walker,
This has become a long thread -- which is good, as it brings forth much information -- but I think you need to go back and re-read the posts about boolit sizing and fit. If I remember correctly, you need a .433" boolit. Have you cast and sized one that large? And, if so, does a pulled boolit from a dummy round measure the same as its pre-loaded dimension? If, for any reason, your boolits are smaller than .433", I think you will continue to get leading.

Just my opinion.

[walker77]

Ok guys, i got some pictures of what i was talking about with my bullets being brittle. I dropped these out of the mold last night and with in a minute of being poured i squeezed them with a pair of needle nose and this is how it turned out. Im pretty sure lead should just bend.

http://i718.photobucket.com/albums/ww189/nwalker77/IMG_4028.jpg

http://i718.photobucket.com/albums/ww189/nwalker77/IMG_4030.jpg

http://i718.photobucket.com/albums/ww189/nwalker77/IMG_4029.jpg

[44man]

Lead was still hot and dropped too soon anyway. Let them cool before making your tests, whatever it supposed to show.

[NSP64]

Lead is not a good conductor of heat. That said it takes them a while to cool down if you are air cooling. My air cooled are sometimes too hot to handle after 30 min. Usually I leave them for a few hours.

[Edubya]

You did that with needle nose pliers? It proves that you have one helluva strog grip and I don't want to shake hands with you!

EW

Surprised that the pliers didn't break!

[Wayne Smith]

That looks like unsolidified lead. One minute after casting mine are too hot to handle still. Half an hour later and my .44 and .50's are still too hot to handle. My 98gr .32 boolits are cooled in about an hour. Let them cool and then try squeezing them without a vice!

[Bret4207]

Yeah, let them cool all the way down. I don't think you have any zinc issues.

[walker77]

Yeah, let them cool all the way down. I don't think you have any zinc issues.

Ok, thanks thats all i was concerned about. As far as 44man, it wasnt a test, i was worried about zinc in my mix.....

[TomAM]

Two words. Gas checks. Many guns simply lead without them, at any velocity, any degree of boolit oversize, any alloy, any powder. The definitive solution is the check.

[HangFireW8]

Two words. Gas checks. Many guns simply lead without them, at any velocity, any degree of boolit oversize, any alloy, any powder. The definitive solution is the check.

Welcome to the board.

My 45/70 is not one of your many guns.

Neither is my .45ACP. ;)

-HF

[walker77]

Rookies ;)

I think i enlarged the cylinder too large on my 44 mag, so i might always have to run gas checks in it. But i dont believe that unless there is a mechanical problem with a gun, there shouldnt be a reason to run gas checks unless you want to run high velocity rounds, or spend more money.

[walker77]

Many guns simply lead without them, at any velocity, any degree of boolit oversize, any alloy, any powder.

I completely dissagree. If you slow down a boolit enough, it wont lead. How do you explain a 22LR? They dont have gas checks, none of them. You have to find the right ratio, and thats what im trying to find here. And like i said already, i think its my own fault. I think when i sent the cylinder in to have it reemed out, i chose to have it reamed too big. So now i will have to run gas checks in it or find a really big mold.

[RobS]

You may have opened them up a bit too much, but it is nothing that is out of the realm for shooting cast boolits. Having .433 throats with a .430 groove diameter is nothing to worry about when shooting cast. My dad has .4285 groove and .4315 cylinder throats. No difference regarding ratio of groove to cylinder throats; he shoots what ever PB he wants through it without leading and with very good accuracy. The thing is his PB bullets fit his gun. Your PB bullet that you have tried just doesn't fit the bill very well. The only thing about what you have is it is a bit more difficult to find yourself a larger diameter mold and will more than likely come down to a custom mold or getting lucky and finding someone who doesn’t like a mold that is casting large bullets.

Another example, but more closely to yours, I have a 45 cal that has a .4515-.452 groove, .4540 barrel throat and with .4545-.4550 cylinder throats. No problems here either with PB bullets as long as they are coming out of the reloaded case (pulled bullet diameter) at the intended diameter (ideally, .001-.002 over groove diameter). I had to find custom molds to work this revolver. Never the less with the right diameter bullet things should fly assuming there is no constrictions in the barrel, bore/forcing cone is smooth, and cylinders are aligned with the bore.

Actually there are people who have a revolver with smaller cylinder throats vs their bore groove diameter and they manage to make things work with softer PB bullets and this is by far a much more difficult road to go down.

Get yourself a "phat" bullet that fits your revolver and see how she runs then :grin:. I bet you’ll be a happy PB shootin man. And yes you’ll be able to shoot GC bullets has it gives the flexibility to have more things out of line and still shoot a bullet with accuracy and reduced leading.

[walker77]

Up late again eh? I think for now i think ill stick with the gas checks. I already have them and they are cheap. Once i have money flowing again, i think i will take your advice and have a custom mold made for that sucka, and play around with it. I ended up going ahead and buying a set of hornday dies today. I was just getting fed up with the lees deprimming die. Ive bent it several times.

[RobS]

Yep up again late. If you want to try......Post up in the Swappin & Sellin section a trade for a "fat" 44 mag mold. Someone may rather have your mold over theirs (pan luber for example) and make a trade straight across with you.

It's an option anyway.

[TomAM]

The leading runs from the begining of the barrel to about the middle, then stops. Why would it stop there???? Doesnt make sense.

This is an extremely common pattern of lead fouling, and becomes quite understandable when you consider the fact that your described load is forcing your boolit to accelerate from zero to approximately 45,000 rpm in a few hundredths of a second. In a revolver, the boolit has already got a lot of speed on before it is suddenly slammed into this rotational force. It tends to resist until the rotation is up to par with forward motion. I’m not saying that a PB boolit is not up to the task, and I’m not saying that this is the only reason for lead fouling. Just proposing an answer to that specific question.

I am indeed a “rookie” to this site, but casting and shooting hundreds of thousands of cast boolits in hundreds of firearms since 1974, and having limitless access to my own custom boolit molds for experimentation, has taught me a couple of things, and I can assure you that there are guns, including 22s, that produce unacceptable levels of lead fouling when subjected to un-protected lead alloy.

If you are having difficulty finding the correct alloy, lube, boolit design, and powder to avoid fouling, and even then find yourself restricted to a very specific low velocity load, then my advice, for what it’s worth, is just use a check design in the correct diameter and you don’t need to fuss over alloy problems any more until about 2000fps.

[bowhunter]

To start with i would try a factory lead bullet, if they have no leading issues then it is not with the gun. Another thing keep it simple, use only ww you don't have to mix anything. Also i stoped water quenching i air cool only, i think wq creates problems sometimes. I shoot 32 hps at around 1700 fps with stright ww and a gas check with hardley any leading. I don't know what a lot of leading is to you but when forcing a hot chunck of lead down a barrel you will get some. Just like a copper a jacket bullet will shead copper in the bore. A gas check will help. I shoot 44 sp and 45 lc with unique with no problems.

[462]

Walker77,
The following is not offered in a critical way, nor in a way to offend. I'm still trying to help.

I think you are giving up too easily, by going the the way of the gas check. Yes, the decision is yours alone to make. However, your answer(s) are in this thread. For whatever reason, you've decided to not explore all of them. Frustration is all too easy to give in to, but it doesn't fix the problem. You may have future casting problems, and this decision may cause you to not want to expend the effort and time to solve them, whereas solving this problem gives you untold amounts of experience and makes solving others that much easier.

It took me many months and a fair amount of powder and primers to solve an identical problem. I'm gratetful for all the help that I received from the Cast Boolit members who set aside their valuable time to offer their suggestions. By seeking their advise, I felt it was my duty to follow it until the problem was eliminated...and it was.

Deciding whether or not to follow the centuries of advise -- and offers of free boolits -- that has been given is up to you. The fix is in this thread. I just hate to see you give up.

[bigboredad]

I don't think he is giving up I think he is choosing a option that will allow him to shoot without leading until he money starts to flow again and he is able to spend a little more money to find the solution to shooting a pb without leading. jmho.

[462]

bigboredad,
I'm aware of his lack of extra spending money...I'm in the same situation. However, since his original post, he's purchased a gas check mould and the gas checks. There is not any additional cost involved with making fatter boolits of the proper alloy and fit.

Again, I'm not being argumentative, critical or negative. I'm only attempting to encourage him to continue to diagnose and solve the problem, as I think my posts in this thread have shown. However, if he decides to not go that route, I'll respect his decision.

[walker77]

Im not really giving up. Im really going the way of the gas checks untill i get more experience. I realize its cheating, but it works in my sick little world :)

[Heavy lead]

Hey,
I casted some up with the Mihec 503, don't think they are going to work for you as they are .434x.431, anyway I do have 100 Lee C430-310's all sized checked and lubed at .431 ready to send you, been busy, pm me with your address and I'll get them to you, give them a try and see if they'll work, they're pretty soft 50/50 ww/pure with 2% tin air cooled so they should bump up and run fine.

[bigboredad]

462

I understand your point I wasn't sure if you knew about his lack of steady spending money. sorry to hear you are in the same boatmbut don't feel too alone i'm right there to[smilie=s:

[walker77]

Yup, too much time on my hands and no money to spend to enjoy it :(

[462]

Bigboredad,
Millions of others are in the boat, too.

Walker77,
Glad to see that you've just taken a detour, and not stopped the journey.

Another tip, for what it's worth: I've printed threads, so that they are readily at hand. You may want to do that, with this one, and use it as a checklist. Check off what you've already tried and prioritize the suggestions that you haven't.

[Crash_Corrigan]

Has anybody mentioned "Beageling" his too small mold? I have done that with a balky mold that threw boolits smaller than I wanted and it worked out fine.

I was able to beagle a .312 mold to .314 with just a few pieces of alum foil tape.

There is a thread out on this forum about that in the stickys and it might be worth while reading before you go and spend money on gas checks and such.

[Bret4207]

There's no shame in using a GC. Sometimes it's kinda like working with a horse- if you and the horse are both having a bad day...well, then maybe both of you need to do something you can be successful at before calling it a day, even if it's "cheating" a bit. Otherwise you end up totally bummed (a 70's phrase) and discouraged.

Shoot the GC boolits, get your feet under you and then come back for round 2 with the PB. I'd also like you to take one of those PB boolits, 3 or 4 actually, and just give them a couple good smacks with a hammer on a hard surface, or put them in a vise and squish them. Then post he pic. Believe it or not you can tell a lot about an alloy just by relative comparison with known alloys we've done the same thing to. That will help solve the "brittleness" issue, either it is or it isn't. If you have some strange alloy that can cause problems by it self, even with a GC!.

[walker77]

You know its funny, when i started this thread, i never in my wildest dreams would have thought that it would have grown to 8 pages. I figured i would have got a page or two of help and that would have been enough for me to vent my frustration. I want to say i really appreciate the the help guys.

[RobS]

Has anybody mentioned "Beageling" his too small mold? I have done that with a balky mold that threw boolits smaller than I wanted and it worked out fine.

I was able to beagle a .312 mold to .314 with just a few pieces of alum foil tape.

There is a thread out on this forum about that in the stickys and it might be worth while reading before you go and spend money on gas checks and such.

Somewhere along the thread it is stated that he did beagle the mold.

[TomAM]

I’m rather amused that the use of a gas check for a problem situation is called “giving up”, or “cheating”. It’s a shame that there’s a stigma attached to such a useful casting tool.

The emphasis stated in this thread about the importance of bullet fit is quite true, and a bullet which is large enough to properly fit both chamber mouth and bore is equally important for accuracy. The use of a check is no excuse for or solution to a sloppy fit.

But calling it “quitting” is like saying that we “quit” high school to go to college.

Besides being a cure for a problem gun, a check allows you to:

Lay in a supply of versatile boolits, ready to be shot in any of your guns at any velocity.

Shoot 1000 rounds in a 110 deg desert without losing a trace of accuracy to lead fouling.

Taylor your alloy for optimum performance on game, not on barrel steel.

Taylor your alloy to modify boolit diameter by .001 or more from the same mold.


Join me on the dark side, Walker. The power if the check is immense.

[walker77]

I’m rather amused that the use of a gas check for a problem situation is called “giving up”, or “cheating”. It’s a shame that there’s a stigma attached to such a useful casting tool.

The emphasis stated in this thread about the importance of bullet fit is quite true, and a bullet which is large enough to properly fit both chamber mouth and bore is equally important for accuracy. The use of a check is no excuse for or solution to a sloppy fit.

But calling it “quitting” is like saying that we “quit” high school to go to college.

Besides being a cure for a problem gun, a check allows you to:

Lay in a supply of versatile boolits, ready to be shot in any of your guns at any velocity.

Shoot 1000 rounds in a 110 deg desert without losing a trace of accuracy to lead fouling.

Taylor your alloy for optimum performance on game, not on barrel steel.

Taylor your alloy to modify boolit diameter by .001 or more from the same mold.


Join me on the dark side, Walker. The power if the check is immense.

Huh?????

[462]

TomAM,
I thought the point of this thread was to find a solution to Walker77's leading problem, because, as the thread is titled, he was about "give up". No one wants him to give up, we want him to succeed. My contention is that he can succeed with his original plain base boolit, before having to defer to a gas check designed boolit.

[qajaq59]

I'm curious Walker77...... After all these posts (and I haven't read all of them) are you still going to give it up?

[walker77]

Why dont you read it all, and you will have your answer :)

[462]

Walker77,
If you want people to help you, politeness goes a long way.

[walker77]

I smiled! :)

[qajaq59]

Why dont you read it all, and you will have your answer Because I'm not curious enough to read 166 posts on how to cast a bullet.

[walker77]

Man, calm down, it was just a joke.

[462]

Walker77,
Silly emoticons are meaningless, it's the words that matter.

[StarMetal]

I think Walker has been pretty patient. He's switching to GC's until he can sit back and think about PB.

Walker it can be done because many are doing including myself. I have pushed PB to very HV especially out of rifles that shoot the same pistol cartridge. One example is my 45 Colt rifles, a Winchester and a Marlin. I harvested a deer with the Winchester and the RCBS SWC 255 grain 45 Colt bullet moving out at 1700 fps + at the muzzle. I knock that load down a lot for revolver use, but it's still quite hot in the high 44 mag velocities.....with no appreciable leading. No exotic alloys either, it was WQ WW's and WQ 50/50 WW's/Lead.

[Blammer]

in this day and age, words and emoticons help convey a 'meaning' of what was said and what context to take it in. Like an exclamation point at the end of a sentence showing feeling or excitement, a question mark for a query, emoticons, they too have thier place. Knowing how to read and interpret them is just as important. If you think ONLY the words matter, you'll likely misunderstand lots of what is written.

good choice on trying GC's, likely that will solve your problem and get you shooting again!

[walker77]

462, i already said its a joke, so drop it. You can try to make it into what ever you want to. But im not going to let you start an argument on my thread.

[qajaq59]

Walker77 and I are fine. There's no problem.
Qajaq59

[walker77]

Thanks man :)

[bigboredad]

I think 462 was just having one of those days tat we all get now and then when you just want to [smilie=b:

[walker77]

Lets just forget about it and move on with the subject.

[walker77]

Ok guys, I just bought a RCBS gas check mold for my 38 ( part# 82065 ) Its a 158 swc. My question is, do you think i could use this with my 9mm round. The new rcbs bullet when compared to the case will take up half of the case. If i remember right starting charge of unique that i use fills up about 3/4 of the case. Will it blow up with this combo? Im thinking its not a good idea. Whats your thoughts?

[bigboredad]

I'm not sure about your load all I have to offer is I use the lee 158 gr rfn at some universal the minimum load and it produced a very pleasant shooting load that shot way better than I expected. I shot it out of a ruger sr9 and a ruger p95 and when I loaded for both I used the barrels for a go no go gauge for seating. Hope that helped

[walker77]

In other words, im really going to be packing a lot of powder down, ALOT! Is it safe?

[qajaq59]

In other words, im really going to be packing a lot of powder down, ALOT! Is it safe? If your loading manual has "C" after the load, then it likely is. However, if it isn't in the manual as a compressed load be careful.

[bigboredad]

you may not be compressing as much as you think. When I started seating that bullet I was surprised at how much of it was left out if the case I didn't even seat to the crimp groove

[walker77]

come to find out, i cant find any load data on the new mold. My cast book only goes up to 121 gr for my 9mm

[Heavy lead]

As for the .44, your GAS CHECKED:evil: boolits are on the way (100 of them), but don't be :oops: because it's shooting good that counts. The man behind the counter said Monday they would get there.

[walker77]

Thanks man! What size did you say you sized them?

[Edubya]

Walker, (concerning the 9mm 121 gr boolits)
Sometimes you have to extrapolate the start information by checking out numerous sources of loading manuals and go the official web sites of the companies that are making the powders, i.e., http://www.accuratepowder.com/reloading.htm : http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/default.aspx?page=/reloaders/RecipeList.aspx&title=Pistols%20and%20Revolvers&gtypeid=1&weight=148&shellid=26&bulletid=29 : http://www.hodgdon.com/#

EW

[Heavy lead]

They're .431, but pretty soft, they'll bump up ok, and with the check I'm betting you won't lead. You might have to push them hard though as that looooooooooong Lee 430310 likes to be pushed hard (at least for 50yards plus accuracy). It's got a big ole fat meplat on it you know.

[bigboredad]

on your 9mm i just used data for 148 gr and started at the bottom and worked up from there

[walker77]

there is only data for 121

[bigboredad]

use another manual or go to hogdons sight or handloads.com

[bigboredad]

pm sent

[Edubya]

there is only data for 121

http://www.hodgdon.com/#
124 GR. FMJ Winchester WSF .355" 1.169" 4.7 1015 27,700 PSI 5.3 1115 32,700 PSI
124 GR. LEAD RN Winchester WSF .355" 1.169" 4.0 945 22,200 PSI 4.7 1055 27,300 PSI
125 GR. LCN Hodgdon Longshot .356" 1.125" 5.0 1052 24,700 CUP 5.7 1115 28,300 CUP
125 GR. LCN IMR 800-X .356" 1.125" 4.5 1015 24,900 PSI 5.0 1051 26,200 PSI
125 GR. LCN IMR SR 4756 .356" 1.125" 4.2 972 24,400 PSI 4.8 1071 30,200 PSI
125 GR. LCN Hodgdon HS-6 .356" 1.125" 5.9 1023 24,400 CUP 6.6 1124 30,700 CUP
125 GR. LCN Winchester AutoComp .356" 1.125" 4.3 1012 26,700 PSI 4.8 1101 32,800 PSI
125 GR. LCN Hodgdon Universal .356" 1.125" 3.8 993 24,400 CUP 4.3 1096 31,300 CUP
125 GR. LCN Winchester 231 .356" 1.125" 3.9 1009 25,700 CUP 4.4 1086 31,200 CUP
125 GR. LCN Hodgdon HP-38 .356" 1.125" 3.9 1009 25,700 CUP 4.4 1086 31,200 CUP
125 GR. LCN IMR SR 7625 .356" 1.125" 3.6 933 24,600 PSI 4.1 1035 31,200 PSI
125 GR. LCN IMR PB .356" 1.125" 2.9 908 25,500 PSI 3.4 1004 34,000 PSI
125 GR. LCN Hodgdon Titegroup .356" 1.125" 3.6 1002 22,900 CUP 4.0 1096 30,400 CUP
125 GR. LCN IMR 700-X .356" 1.125" 2.9 899 23,700 PSI 3.4 1003 31,600 PSI
125 GR. LCN Hodgdon Clays .356" 1.125" 2.9 899 22,700 CUP 3.3 993 30,900 CUP
125 GR. SIE FMJ Hodgdon Longshot .355" 1.090" 4.7 1022 28,100 PSI 5.7 1162 33,400 PSI
125 GR. SIE FMJ IMR SR 4756 .355" 1.090" 4.5 973 25,700 PSI 4.9 1037 28,700 PSI
125 GR. SIE FMJ Hodgdon HS-6 .355" 1.090" 6.4 1131 25,600 CUP 6.8 1169 27,100 CUP
125 GR. SIE FMJ Winchester AutoComp .355" 1.090" 4.7 1055 28,900 PSI 5.2 1120 33,300 PSI
125 GR. SIE FMJ Hodgdon Universal .355" 1.090" 4.3 1031 26,900 CUP 4.9 1118 30,600 CUP
125 GR. SIE FMJ Winchester 231 .355" 1.090" 4.4 1009 24,600 CUP 4.8 1088 28,800 CUP
125 GR. SIE FMJ Hodgdon HP-38 .355" 1.090" 4.4 1009 24,600 CUP 4.8 1088 28,800 CUP
125 GR. SIE FMJ IMR SR 7625 .355" 1.090" 4.1 996 28,900 PSI 4.6 1074 33,700 PSI
125 GR. SIE FMJ IMR PB .355" 1.090" 3.2 887 25,600 PSI 3.6 974 33,500 PSI
125 GR. SIE FMJ Hodgdon Titegroup .355" 1.090" 4.1 1069 27,300 CUP 4.4 1136 30,600 CUP
125 GR. SIE FMJ IMR 700-X .355" 1.090" 3.0 845 21,600 PSI 3.6 1007 31,000 PSI
125 GR. SIE FMJ Hodgdon Clays .355" 1.090" 3.5 1010 28,000 CUP 3.7 1056 32,500 CUP
147 GR. FMJ Winchester WSF .355" 1.169" 3.9 895 28,400 PSI 4.3 950 32,300 PSI
147 GR. HDY XTP Hodgdon Longshot .355" 1.100" 3.8 851 25,700 PSI 4.7 1004 33,800 PSI
147 GR. HDY XTP IMR 800-X .355" 1.100" 3.5 808 25,600 PSI 4.0 883 28,900 PSI
147 GR. HDY XTP IMR SR 4756 .355" 1.100" 3.0 668 21,800 PSI 3.6 834 29,900 PSI
147 GR. HDY XTP Hodgdon HS-6 .355" 1.100" 4.3 773 20,200 CUP 5.0 885 27,900 CUP
147 GR. HDY XTP Winchester AutoComp .355" 1.100" 3.6 827 27,900 PSI 4.0 916 32,800 PSI
147 GR. HDY XTP Hodgdon Universal .355" 1.100" 3.0 803 24,100 CUP 3.3 869 31,000 CUP
147 GR. HDY XTP IMR SR 7625 .355" 1.100" 2.8 707 24,000 PSI 3.3 844 32,900 PSI
147 GR. HDY XTP Hodgdon Titegroup .355" 1.100" 3.2 855 22,500 CUP 3.6 929 27,500 CUP
147 GR. HDY XTP IMR 700-X .355" 1.100" 2.6 764 27,300 PSI 2.9 838 32,000 PSI
147 GR. JHP Winchester WSF .355" 1.169" 4.0 900 30,100 PSI 4.3 935 32,300 PSI
147 GR. LEAD CFP Winchester WSF .355" 1.169" 3.7 905 28,500 PSI 4.1 965 32,800 PSI

EW