Question 44 mag seating depth and COL

[10mmShooter]

Hi All Knowing People

I have a question I've wondered about about seating depth for my 44, first I shoot paper only at velocities of less that <1000fps...normally 925fps is about right for me and a 240-255 lead SWC for my Ananacoda using about 7 g of Green Dot.

In the picture I have included are two sest of cartridges, the shorter is Lyman 429421 bullet I cast, its on the left in the nickel cases, its seated to 1.610 COL which is a typical 44 COL. But on the right in the brass cases I have my newer RCBS 250 SWC seated to 1.690 COL seated right at the crimp grove. As you can see I use a good taper crimp(please no discussions on taper vs roll crimp).

So to the question which seating depth is correct?? Obivously with my Anacoda I have no worries with the longer round chambering the cylinder is quite long and there is no interferace with cylinder rotating.

The Lyman manual says with the 429421 to go out to 1.710 COL which is too long becasue you are slightly past the crimp grove. All other manual show seating depth for the 44 to be 1.600-1.610??

So wouldnt it be better to the get the bullet closer to the the rifling?? I'm really leaning toward 1.690-1.700 for the Keith style SWC. :Fire:

Case volume and pressure difference are negiable since the difference in the seating depths only changes the case volume by about 7%(for .0600), so there wont be much difference in fps. I may drop 20 fps max by seating the bullet further out.

So what COL do you guys use for your 44s???

below the bullets are the 429421 on the left and RCBS 250 SWC Keith on the right...almost the same Lyman is .777 long and the RCBS is .800.

http://www.keithrussell.net/compare.jpg

[archmaker]

With a revolver you have a little more latitude with O/L. I have built some cartridges where the bullet was almost out the cylinder on a Redhawk.

I typically use the crimp groove which is there to help your bullets from moving forward during recoil, may not be a big problem depending on your load, but mainly I like how it looks :) (I like the look of the round on the right).

Just like anything else watch your pressure as you develop your load.

[44man]

Seat in the crimp grooves.

[JIMinPHX]

Seating shorter gets you more velocity from less powder. Seating longer gets you move available powder volume. Some powders don't like a lot of air space. Others do. Seating longer gets you better boolit stability in some guns. The maximum length that you can seat to varies from gun to gun. The published max COAL for the .44 mag is very conservative compared to the actual dimensions of many guns. The .44 mag often needs a good firm crimp to prevent the boolit from pulling out of the case when another round is fired. I've seen cylinders lock up when a boolit pulled out so far that it passed the forcing cone.

[HeavyMetal]

In a wheel gun you are never going to get the boolit any where near the rifling so cartridge overall length gets you nothing in that respect.

I have the 429421 and had a pair of RCBS 250-K molds, which is a Kieth copy.

Kieth designed the 429421 with a very large front band ahead of the crimp groove so that it would center the boolit in the cylinder throat.

This is way sizing to throat diameter yields the best results in a revolver! I will quote a board member: Fit is King!

Kieth's idea was the first driving band would center the round in the cylinder throat. When fired the front band would be in the forcing cone "While the second and base driving bands were still in the cylinder throats" in this way the boolit was always prevented from any kind of tilting/alignment issues when it was fired.

As long as no mechanical issues exist in the revolver being used the 429421 should be more accurate, at "normal" pistol ranges than a round nose design.

So to answer your question: load the boolit to the crimp groove, size the boolit to match the throat of your gun, set these deminsions up before you start load development and, because each gun is a law unto itself, only use O.A.L.'s shown in the loading manuals as a guide.

I say that last because I know that enough "tolerance stacking" exists in the real world that you and I are never going to get the exact components used by the manufacturer when they devloped the loading information in the manuals and the crimp groove location will "move" as tooling is re done to cut the molds.

[Bass Ackward]

Most of us have trouble remembering our car keys, so we exercise our brains by theorizing. Theorizing is great, and it turns out to be entertaining when we get into tussles, but it don't replace results.

If you ain't into rollin, then I would fill that crimp groove with lube and seat that puppy on out and try it. If you seat at the back of the crimp groove, then you are going to be about 2" for an OAL which is a 445 Super Mag. Zoom, zoom!

Mostly what you lose is case neck friction because you are gripping less bullet. And if your powder charge is borderline for that case capacity, you can create powder position sensitivity and ruin ignition where you didn't have a problem seated deeply. And if you do either one of those, you will probably not do so well.

Usually increased bullet jump and velocity place demands for harder bullets to produce the same accuracy. But .... not always.

Lube it up, stretch it out, use some more powder, and put that combo to paper and you'll know for sure.

[Larry Gibson]

10mmShooter

I seat both of those bullets to the crimp groove (as you've done in the picture) and they shoot very well in my Colt Anaconda, Ruger BHFT and JP Saur Western Marshal.

Larry Gibson

[RobS]

My real life experience tells me in a revolver that the sooner the bullet makes its way to the forcing cone and into the bore the better. I like a bullet that has less bullet jump and in practice it has worked out best for my applications in revolvers :-)But not always is this the case for everyone:-)

There is nothing certain about cast boolit casting, reloading or shooting. There are however basic, common practices that are generally followed as most of the time it is what works for the majority. With that a crimp groove is cut into a mold block for a reason if the bullet is intended for a revolver............does it mean that you have to crimp with a roll crimp and in the crimp groove..........no it doesn't.

Load some up however you want and with whatever charge and let your gun tell you by its groups what works best. The only thing I can say is at the bare minimum make sure you are reloading with safe practices so you don't have yourself a KABOOM and..............then you're off to the races. [smilie=2:

[StarMetal]

I tend to agree with Bass. Neck tensions are inconsistent due to the metal aging/hardening different from one another. A uniform crimp, especially if the cases are all uniform length, helps to equal out the differences. We all know the other virtues of the a crimp so I won't get into them here. I crimp all my revolver loads and 44 man knows how they shoot.

[10mmShooter]

thank you to everyone your input is really appreaciated :bigsmyl2:

[EDK]

Elmer Keith designed his boolits for 38 and 44 SPECIALS...not MAGNUMS!

Crimp them in the crimping groove if you don't have issues with over all length and cylinder length...358429 is too long for short cylindered guns like S&W 27/28. I seat the MIHEC #H&G 503 clone in the crimping groove for my VAQUEROS (and MARLIN Cowboy rifles) but haven't gotten my S&W 29 and 629 out of the safe for too long a time. An ANNACONDA has a longer cylinder IIRC.

I use a taper crimp on my 44 SPECIAL loads with the 200 grain full wadcutter, but prefer roll crimp for more enthusiastic loads. I have never had a boolit jump crimp, but it happens. Getting a boolit out of the barrel is an experience I'd prefer to avoid.

:Fire::redneck::cbpour:

[fredj338]

So to answer your question: load the boolit to the crimp groove, size the boolit to match the throat of your gun, set these deminsions up before you start load development and, because each gun is a law unto itself, only use O.A.L.'s shown in the loading manuals as a guide.
.

I agree, but you are rarely if ever going to find OAL data in any manual for most lead bullet loads. You can't really go wrong crimping into the crimp groove unless your cyl is so short as to leave the bullet nose sticking out.

[Al_sway]

With your load, loading the bullet shorter as you have done with the nickeled cases is probably OK from a pressure point of view. If you were using a close to maximum charge, then seating the bullet deeper and not using the crimp groove could result in dangerous pressures. It is no fun trying to drive cases out of a cylinder!
If the oal works then using the crimp groove is probably best.

[MtGun44]

Elmer wanted his front driving band to partially engage the tapered section between the
chamber proper and the throat so that the boolit is more centered in the cylinder before
firing.

SO -- seat all the way out to the crimp groove absent length fit issues.

Bill

[S.R.Custom]

Elmer wanted his front driving band to partially engage the tapered section between the chamber proper and the throat so that the boolit is more centered in the cylinder before firing... SO -- seat all the way out to the crimp groove absent length fit issues.

Exactly.

And since you're taper crimping, you're free to seat the boolit out far enough such that the front driving band is just off the full constriction part of the chamber throat. (You'll have to leave things loose enough for the cylinder to turn.)

The closer you come to sealing the chamber throat with the front driving band before ignition, the less propellant gas will 'leak' past the bullet at ignition. Less leakage = better consistency in velocities, which of course = better accuracy.