The demise of small centerfires

[JohnH]

I've wondered what caused this.I figure it was the 223. For someone blasten groundhogs and prairie dogs crows and other pests, there was little a 25-20 would do that the 223 couldn't as well. In fact, the 223 was probably a vast step up in a varmint rifle. But it ain't much of a low/lower velocity plinker. I guess it replaced the 32-20 as well. Years ago I passed up a '92 or 65 (not sure which these days) in 25-20, could have been had for the handsome sume of $129.00. Seemed in good shape, bolt nor lever was loose. But my interests lay elswhere. Guess that's part of the problem too. Still it seems that with the Cowboy Action folks and their desire for it to gobang but not recoil, rifles such as this would be al the rage fromt he makers. Not so. Seems all they want to sell is the latest greatest superdupermagnumpooper. Finally saw a 300 RUM case a the gunshow recently. My buddy asked "What do you do with that?????" "Use it for reforming I reckon" I have trouble concieving a 3" long 30 caliber case. So who does one go to to get something like a 32-20 or a 25-20 or a 32 Mag or 45 ACP for that matter?

Of recent there was an article here about coming full circle on the powders we use. I wonder if we are coming into or leaving the age of the shooter. Perhaps someone will stick their neck out and offer something like the 256 Winchester. Winchester says it failed, but they never even offered a gun for it, where do they get off saying it failed when they never supported it? How about a 25 or 270 or 30 Remington MiniMax (hey, it's all in the name) Remington still makes 357 Max brass, couldn't they ressurect the rolling block or something similarly simple and offer us something more usable than a 300 RUM? Strikes me a market for stuff like this is at least as big as the market that buys that silliness.

OK, I'll stop ranting for the moment.

[C1PNR]

John,
I guess you're just going to have to go looking for an older Winchester '92. I don't know what the Rossi, Henry, and other clones are chambered for these days. MAY get lucky and find one of them in the caliber you're looking for.

I sure like shooting the 25-20, 32-20 (when I can get it out of my son's hands), and the 25-35. Don't make too many 300 yard kills on "whistle pigs," but sure do have fun!

[Willbird]

Well the old ctg. you mention had one thing in common, they were for wacking varmints for sure, and small game too, or rather the varmints WERE small game, the 223 does a poor job in factory loadings for killing small furry animals to eat.

a factory ctg. with the same powder capacity as the 300 whisper offered in 30, 7mm,25,22 and 17 caliber would be a great ctg. indeed. if loaded to 60,000 psi it could come close to the 7.62x39 muzzle energy in factory loaded ctg. . The 22 version would be a great black rifle ctg. for the 100 and 200 yard off season highpower leagues many people shoot in.

the 17 would be cool too.

I am seeing this with a nice sharp 35 or 40 degree shoulder.

for larger ctg. needs a 6mm BR case enlarged to equal 30-30 powder capacity exactly and offered in again 30, 7mm, 25,and 22 calibers would be good also. I would make an excellant hunter BR ctg. for one thing, and would offerer plenty of muzzle energy for whitetails.

Bill

[beagle]

Marlin made an attempt years ago to bring these little rifles back and it looks like it's time to do it again.

I have a 25-20 and it's sweet. I'd like to have a .32-20 and a .218 Bee but the safe just has so much room.

I agree wholeheartedly on the earspliztenboomers. They won't last. I've been looking (in vain) for a .300 H & H the last couple of months. All I can find are .300 Win Mags and .300 Supermagnums.

The time is right for Winchester to bring out a run of Model 43s in Hornet, .218 Bee, .25-20 and .32-20. They'd sell a pile if they made a plain, well made rifle.

Then there's Marlin. Reintroduce some of the oldies. Then throw in Paco Kelly's .30/357 and a .256 Win Mag version just for grins.

In either instance, they'd get my money and that's what it's all about./beagle

[Urny]

I wouldn't have much trouble making room in the safe if Savage would see fit to offer us the old Model 219 with a steel frame, stocks just like the old ones, and chambered in .22 Hornet, .25-20, .32-20, .30-30, and maybe .219 Zipper. .219 Zipper Model 219. It just has a pleasant ring to it.

[StarMetal]

beagle

I don't agree with you that the earspliztenboomers aren't going to be around long. Ever since the manufacturers come out with the first magnums they've been with us ever since and keep on coming in new packages. The 300 Win mag has been with us for quite some while now and it's not fading. The newer short mags haven't taken over much yet. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a magnum fan. I think we're a small sector of the shooting group in that we like to shoot cast and we love the old calibers. Fact is there's alot of hunters that buy the magnum stuff and the new stuff and use it for serious hunting only, not plinking or target shooting and alot of them DO use those magnums for long range big game shots. I have seen some crazy people back east that used a 300 Win mag for whitetail deer hunting in hilly very wooded states and they bragged about how it really wacked the deer and where proud of the big hole it put in it, plus all the ruined meat. I was out for the sport and for the fact the family really enjoys good venision, not blood shot stuff.

The 218 Bee is really a neat little centerfire. I would like to see them bring that back and of course they should make all the old lever cartridges you mentioned. They already have the platforms for this and in alot of instances even the boring and rifling set ups. All they need is the chamber reamer, for all we know, they might have those too. One thing they do need to do is make them in the right twists.

Joe

[StarMetal]

Urny

Yeah, the 219 Zipper and the 219 Donaldson Wasp, both very similar and both with a cool name. I almost chambered a rifle to 219 Zipper one time.

Joe

[trooperdan]

I've long had a soft spot in my heart for the little guys. I just recently bought a CZ 527 chambered in .221 Fireball and I have a couple of Marlin M62's, one in .30 Carbine (just think of it as kinda a 32-20!) and one in .256 Win mag that I really enjoy. I've been bugging my local shop to get me a Savage Model 40 in .22 Hornet but he says he can't find one.. time for me to try another shop, I think!

[sundog]

FWIW, there's an article in this month's Handloader about the .221 Fire Ball. sundog

[StarMetal]

Also fwiw there's an article I believe Guns & Ammo for June on the 221 Fireball and the rifle they used to test it was indeed the CZ and Mr. Forker was utterly impressed with the accuracy of the rifle.

Joe

[Buckshot]

............Marlin has a levergun in 32 Mag. Rossi offers a 92 clone in 38 Special.

..............Buckshot

[beagle]

Too many of the earsplitzenboomers are already for sale used. The ammo is too high and frankly, 99.5% of the available hunting can be done with something available that a heck of a lot more pleasant to shoot.

We got guys here in KY buying .300 Super Magnums for whitetail deer for god's sake.

Say they want them for long shots. You very seldom see them target them beyond 100 yards so how in h_ll do they expect to hit a 150 pound deer at 300 yards if they don't know how the gun shoots. 90% of our kills on deer here are at 70 yards according to FWL. Elk??? Some guy killed one here last year with a .35 Remington and it did just fine.

If you ask me, the "new magnum" craze is a pyramid scheme by Remchester to see how many guys they can leave holding the bag when it's all said and done./beagle

[beagle]

Oh man, I'd love to have a nice clean .219 Zipper. I had a .219 Ackley Imp Zipper on a highwall but got sacred of the action and let it go.

Then, there's the .25-20 SS. I'd love one of those or maybe a 2R Lovell. You guys quit tormenting me./beagle


I wouldn't have much trouble making room in the safe if Savage would see fit to offer us the old Model 219 with a steel frame, stocks just like the old ones, and chambered in .22 Hornet, .25-20, .32-20, .30-30, and maybe .219 Zipper. .219 Zipper Model 219. It just has a pleasant ring to it.

[JohnH]

Well the old ctg. you mention had one thing in common, they were for wacking varmints for sure, and small game too, or rather the varmints WERE small game, the 223 does a poor job in factory loadings for killing small furry animals to eat.

a factory ctg. with the same powder capacity as the 300 whisper offered in 30, 7mm,25,22 and 17 caliber would be a great ctg. indeed. if loaded to 60,000 psi it could come close to the 7.62x39 muzzle energy in factory loaded ctg. . The 22 version would be a great black rifle ctg. for the 100 and 200 yard off season highpower leagues many people shoot in.

the 17 would be cool too.

I am seeing this with a nice sharp 35 or 40 degree shoulder.

for larger ctg. needs a 6mm BR case enlarged to equal 30-30 powder capacity exactly and offered in again 30, 7mm, 25,and 22 calibers would be good also. I would make an excellant hunter BR ctg. for one thing, and would offerer plenty of muzzle energy for whitetails.

Bill

Sorry Bill, All that is exactly why one can't get a new in box 25-20 from Winchester or Marlin or Ruger or Henry for that matter and is everything I don't want. The 300 Whisper sounds cool, and could be a lot of fun, but as soon as one begins to push it to supersonic levels I am completely disinterested. I would settle for a simple 38 Special on the old Stevens 44 1/2 or even a 32 S&W Long.

But what sells is hotter and faster. But it sells because one can't buy anything else. Turns out that Marlin has so badly botched the isue of their 32 Mag lever that people who have had one on order for 15 MONTHS is ending the transaction and taking his money elsewhere.

I have toyed with the idea of building my own rifle, Brownells sells a book, written by a master machinist that takes one step by step through the process, it even includes how to document the arm so that it is legal. I just bemoan the fact that the factories seem to cater to the interests of the high speed shooters, while those like myself, who consume TONS of arms, ammo and components are ignored.

[JohnH]

............Marlin has a levergun in 32 Mag. Rossi offers a 92 clone in 38 Special.

..............Buckshot

I'll see what I can find out about the Rossi, Thanks, JohnH

[JohnH]

Too many of the earsplitzenboomers are already for sale used. The ammo is too high and frankly, 99.5% of the available hunting can be done with something available that a heck of a lot more pleasant to shoot.
/beagle

The problem I see here in Northeast Alabama, is that none of the guys who are buying those Super Magnums to hunt with, are shooting anything else. They deer hunt and bass fish. Very few shoot for recreation anymore, and those that do are toten' 30-30's and '06's, so they are probably a lot like us. Another part of the great problem is a place to shoot. I'm very, very lucky. I can walk out my back door and shoot anytime I please. Many can't, and the population is such these days that even using a 22 LR for squirrel can be hazardous to nearby landowners. It is possible that the population distribution has had a far larger effect on what is saleable today than might be evident at first glance. Even the areas that are today considered country are not country as I remember country, it is more like 5 to 100 acre lots in a really large, spread out suburb. You don't need a 25-20 to shoot a fox in the hen house or pot a 'coon for dinner, you need a 300 RUM so that you can prove your appetite for wreched excess to your huntin' buddies, and increase the wealth of your banker. Now where did I leave the keys to my Escalade?

[35remington]

I always though the .25-20 was the cartridge all small game hunters need, but none of them know it because they've never tried it. Don't get me wrong, I like the long rifle, but when I go afield with the .25-20 I am ready for anything that may come along.

I can hunt squirrels and rabbits during the day and ruin little meat, call in coyotes at dusk, and shoot raccoons at night. Same gun. Fox squirrel can be pretty tough buggers, but a cast .25 flatpoint at only 1150 fps knocks the crap out of them, even with hits that were not exactly where I wanted.

I also like the .22 magnum, and it does much better than the long rifle on the bigger critters, but the .25-20 is more effective than the .22 magnum. I'd say full power loads have around 3-4X the killing power of the .22 magnum, and I've shot quite a few critters with both cartridges. Cast bullet loads can greatly surpass .22 magnum killing power and ruin far less meat.

I would like an opportunity to buy a new half magazine .25-20 Marlin or Winchester. I was too ignorant to buy one when they offered them 15 years ago.

[StarMetal]

beagle

You're 100 percent right about those mags being used back east on small whitetail deer at close up shots when the old rounds are more perfect, but you're 200 percent wrong about them out west in the mtns hunting some kind of game that you can't get close to and have to literally shoot from ridge to ridge. The mags have the trajectory advantage and makes the task easier. Yes there are a small fashion of people that get close, some how, and slay the animal with an old round. You just don't like the mags and have no use for them. Why doesn't the military use a 35 Remington or a 30-30 for sniper work? See what I mean. Even the good old 30-06 is passed up in favor of the bigger newer stuff. Yeah I'm aware they still use the 308 in certain circumstances. Don't get me wrong I don't care for the magnums either. I don't have a use for them either.

Joe

[StarMetal]

I'm not trying to be a smartass here, I learned a long time ago that there are more then one side to a view. I forgot to say in the previous post that Rick Jamison of Shooting Times said it's a shame that the 260 Rem isn't getting all the attention that it deserves...he said that if there was a perfect whitetail deer cartridge, that the 260 was it.

Joe

[Scrounger]

I always though the .25-20 was the cartridge all small game hunters need, but none of them know it because they've never tried it. Don't get me wrong, I like the long rifle, but when I go afield with the .25-20 I am ready for anything that may come along.

I can hunt squirrels and rabbits during the day and ruin little meat, call in coyotes at dusk, and shoot raccoons at night. Same gun. Fox squirrel can be pretty tough buggers, but a cast .25 flatpoint at only 1150 fps knocks the crap out of them, even with hits that were not exactly where I wanted.

I also like the .22 magnum, and it does much better than the long rifle on the bigger critters, but the .25-20 is more effective than the .22 magnum. I'd say full power loads have around 3-4X the killing power of the .22 magnum, and I've shot quite a few critters with both cartridges. Cast bullet loads can greatly surpass .22 magnum killing power and ruin far less meat.

I would like an opportunity to buy a new half magazine .25-20 Marlin or Winchester. I was too ignorant to buy one when they offered them 15 years ago.

Seems to me it would be possible to make a .25 Rimfire Magnum, say on the Winchester 9422 or Marlin 39 platform... a 60 to 75 grain flatnose lead bullet at about 1500-1600 fps. You two guys would probably buy it, and I bet a few thousand others would too. Call it The Poacher's Special?

[JohnH]

StarMetal, it is almost ridiculous how many requests I see for someone to make a 6.5x55 here, but when the 260 is raised in the conversation things get really quite. I wonder how many 260's Remington would be selling if they had the press behind it they have put into their short and ultra magnums. How many articles have you seen on the front pages of the gunrags braggin' on the 260 as compared to the superdupermags? (as that goes, how many articles do we see on the art of shooting? :( )

Living on Lookout Mountian, and being surrounded by the lower Appalachians, I can attest that there are as good oppoutunities for ridge to ridge shooting here in the East as out West. The average 300 Win Mag shooter I see though has their ass hung out on a tree overlooking a persimmon tree, creek bottom or white oak grove where the shot is 60 yards MAX! People look at me like I'm stupid when I say that a 44 Mag is as good a rifle as I have currently for whitetails.

I guess parts of this we could flog to death. What I don't understand is that with the current craze in the Cowbaoy Action shoots, why in the world US Repeating Arms hasn't brought out a modern version of the '73 in 25-20, 32-20, 44-40 (Gee what a concept that would be). Oliver must be turning over in his grave. I wonder if there is anyone left there who even knows who Oliver Winchester was or how he made the Winchester fortune, or even how the '94 became the "Gun That Won The West" when in reality is was the '73.

[StarMetal]

Well there is a new 1873 out by one of the Italian makers and it's in 45 LC hahahahaha. Other then that it's suppose to be a pretty decent copy that is well made and shoots plenty good.

Joe

[Jumptrap]

Seems to me it would be possible to make a .25 Rimfire Magnum, say on the Winchester 9422 or Marlin 39 platform... a 60 to 75 grain flatnose lead bullet at about 1500-1600 fps. You two guys would probably buy it, and I bet a few thousand others would too. Call it The Poacher's Special?

Scrounger,

I've been opining for a .25 rimfire magnum for a few months now....ask beagle!

They'd have to make it so it wouldn't fit in any of the ancient .25 rimfires, but i figure a 60 grain pill at 2000 fps would be the cat's ass.........just a bumped up .22 mag. If they make it, I'll buy it.

[carpetman]

Starmetal---Uhhh Ummm Not to rub salt on anything,Rick Jamison made mention of the .260--thats good. Now if he continues writing about it--because nobody else is----like Jack O'Connor did wit the .270,are you gonna get rid of your .260?

[carpetman]

Starmetal--The Sgt Major is 200% wrong????? Didn't you learn anything in the Navy? A SGT MAJOR wrong????If it's too far for a 30-06 it's too far. The 30-06 is going to shoot through most everything in North America---and who cares how far beyond it shoots through? In MOST instances the 30 Magsuperduper owners are not shooters. MOST believed what the guy behind the counter(who in MOST instances wasnt a shooter either) said about getting close was all that was needed. They don't go to the range and sight in good as a couple of shots is all they can stand,and agaiin close is all that's needed with this cannon. Now tell me with this combination they are going to take game that you aren't with a 30-06? They are led to believe the 200-300 fps they have over the 30-06 is earth shattering. I dont think thats a big deal--but I do believe the extra 50% powder to get that increase in fps is shoulder shattering. Ever heard of the effects on shooting from things called jerk and flinch?? Nah--SGT MAJOR,as usual was right on.

[9.3X62AL]

I tried to not post here, but here goes anyway.

Buckshot and I just got back from our annual pre-NCBS NorCal rat-zap, and I missed having the 25-20 along. The ranges that most of the hunting took place at would have been perfect for the 25-20 and cast boolits. As it was, we did well with the 22 LR and 243/cast loads. The 223 was usable on some of the longer shots, but mine was kinda blasty with its 16.5" barrel. Rick's 24" barrelled Savage was a LOT more pleasant to be around.

I have always liked the 25-20's ability to decisively stop small game and vermin without disassembling/misting them like the 223's and 22-250's do.

[Bret4207]

Regarding a 25 cal RF, great idea already dead and gone. It was the 25 Stevens Long. Avialable through CIL (Canadian Industries Ltd) into the late 60's at least. There was also a 25 short. The Long had a 60 gr LFP boolit at around 1450fps IIRC. Guys are reforming 22 Hornet brass, altering for CF firing pin and enjoying the old guns.

Carpetman said it best. Too far for the '06 is TOO FAR TO BE SHOOTING! The 7mm mag and up is precisy the reason we have so many fat coyotes around here each fall. Slap a 6x18 power scope on the latest Remchester super magnum and watch the wounded deer pile up. I've ranted about this before. Shooting from peak to peak is not hunting, it's hoping for a freak hit. Not 1 guy a thousand, me included, can reliably say he can judge distance and wind and holdover at 300 yds plus. Those that can are either regular long distance varmint shooters or are high power rifle competitors. All the laser range finders in the world can't help you with wind, mirage and shadow. The magnums are marketing an idea that you can be lazy and still kill your game. The same idea is applied to the high power scopes and some, not all, of the so called "premium" bullets. Roy Wheatherby started the mass selling of velocity as a hunting tool and it's been pretty darn sucessfull. As for the "sniper" concept, I believe the average Police sniper shot is around 70 yards. Why would anything with magnum tacked on the end be needed at 70 yards? Military is different, but I imagine even they fall prey to advertising. A flattened trajectory is great, but it's the shooter making the hit. An inch more drop at 400 yards isn't anything to worry about.

As for the 218, 25 WCF, 32WCF, 2R Lovell etc., the market share for these guns is small. It's small because nobody other than a few state game depts promotes small game hunting. When is the last time you even saw a real squirrel hunting article, much less an ad? Been a while. Fox hunting? Call them close and bang 'em with a 10 gauge. Rabbits require at least a 12 gauge. Nobody but us would think of shooting a bunny with a rifle. It's not promoted, not marketed, and mores the shame and loss for all of us. Nothing better than a kid, his Dad or Grand Dad and some squirrels. The only way they'll market the 25WCF or 32WCF is as cowbay action guns, which means no 219 Savges or 43 Winchesters, much less the return of the best of the lot the model 23 series Savage bolt guns. Watch and see if that Savage single shot Hornet lasts more than 2 years. No sex appeal. What would be nice is the Stevens Favorites in 25 RF, 32 S+W Long and of course 22lr selling new for around $150.00. That'd get it started. Follow up with the Savage and REmington pumps in 25WCF, 32 WCF. Follow that with the '92 Winchesters and Savge 23's in your favorite caliber. I'll be waiting with the rest of you.

[Willbird]

Well Mr. Elmer Keith insisted the 25 stevens rimfire was a far better ctg. than the 22lr...that it had enough poop to take larger critters cleanly.

and my idea on the 300 whisper sized ctg. is to get a saami chambering out there with some nice lapua or Norma brass, then the loading intensity is up to the owner of the rifle.

one shortcoming to the 22 hornet is it is such an old ctg. that when saami made some specs for it the tolerance is huge, the brass doesnt even come close to being supported at the solid head...I assume the 25/20 is the same way because of it's age, even the 30-30 suffers from brass that is way too short for the saami chamber as I recall.

So start with a clean slate I say, and make ctg. that will sell, and then we have nice brass and rifles with snug chambers to fit it to do our thing with.

as for the loudenboomers, I will admit I own a 6-284 that is one of my favorite rifles, with an 8 twist barrel I can do lots of stuff with one gun, and it is rock solid 1/4-3/8 moa rifle that has dead steady POI day in out spring summer winter or fall, and I have the stoney point elevation knob marked to 1000 yards and enough vertical adj to get there. It shoots 75 grain boolits at 3800 fps, and 105's at 3200. It is the first wildcat rifle I owned, and the first rifle I fit and chambered a bbl to.

EVERY rifle I have does not have to be able to do that, but I like having ONE that will. I'd like to build a big 30 as well. But I also want to make some nice cast boolit loads for my 788 30-30....and my dads 03a3, and my grandads 03, and the krag, and the 375 H-H model 70

rifles are cool.........and flat and fast has it's place......as does medium/slow and frugal.

Bill

[StarMetal]

Carpetman Ray, I don't know what got into me, maybe too many hours out at sea. I'll go stand in the corner. Is corner correct for the Navy? You know, being the floor is the deck and the wall it a bulkhead?

Tpr Bret. I don't agree. I don't think you knew the guy on old Shooter, actually a youngster, as he was 19. Ballistics in Scotland will remember him. He went by 25-06 Remember. This boy could hit a one gallon milk jug full of water at 400 yards with his 25-06 I imagine every single shot. He practiced routinely every week for years. It became his passion. He did this too from different shooting positions. His intentions were hunting and taking long shot, which in fact he did. Another example, my best friend in Tulsa, Ok and his brother from Springfield, Missouri, practiced for elk hunting. My friend Mike uses a 30-06 (hey there's one for beagle) with a 4x12 scope and his brother a 264 Mag , not sure of power of his scope. I've actually saw Mike shoot 3 shot groups at 300 yards that I'm embarassed to say beat most anything I shot at 100 yards. Well they both went elk hunting, quite a few time out in Colorado before they finally got one. They both took an elk at somewheres around 400 yards. Mike layed on the ground with his 06 over his backpack for what he said was a benchrest solid shooting position. We use to have an informal on going shooting contest for an imaginary shooting champ belt buckle, which went back and forth between the two of us. I told Mike that after that great shot on the elk I would have to wing walk on the wing of an airplane and shoot a running whitetail deer with my short barrel Ruger 45 LC Blackhawk in order to top his feat. He laughed. BUT, the story doesn't end there, his brother shot his elk from the standing position! Through the heart! The thing I told Mike, that made him laugh, was I never though of the 264 Mag as a big game rifle, more like an overgrown varmint round, and didn't think it would have that kind of knock down powder on an elk at that distance. Well years later I learned more about the 6.5 caliber and especially the great work and performance of the 6.5 Swede. Yes Trooper Bret, there are hunters that do practice long shots and for good reason and they do make those long shots on game and they don't run off wounded. You're right in the average hunter has no sense in taking extremely long shots. On the other hand I've seen alot of deer run off to die somewhere because of lousy close range shots. Again, I use the sniper statement...why do snipers take long shots? Do you think the long shots snipers take and connect with are just luck? Not hardly.

Do I take long long shots? NOPE An old seasoned hunter once told me that if a deer is coming towards you, let him come, the closer he gets the better chance you have of getting him. Good advice...don't rush into a shot.

Joe

[floodgate]

Actually, there was an attempt by Remington, just before WW II, to upgrade the .25 Stevens. It was called the .267 Remington, and was identified by a special "U/267" (or "P/267" for the Peters version) headstamp, nickeled case and nicely-shaped RN bullet. The idea was dropped, IIRC, both because of the impending war, and out of concern for the many old and feeble actions out there that were chambered for the .25. But what we really need is a CF version. There were several wildcats back in the '50's based on blown-out Hornet cases, but we'd need better brass than those or the .25-20's provide. Hmmm... Starline, are you listening? floodgate

[Willbird]

When it comes to long range shooting it isnt the elevation that kills you, it's the windage.....for varmint shooting I always run the numbers in PCB ballistics and use the varmint bullet with the lowest wind drift at say 600 yards, With the way supersonic ballistics work that bullet also ends up having the highest impact velocity at most ranges past 200 yards, and also the longest point blank range.

Moving out to Williams county Ohio I had a goal to hit a woodchuck past 300 yards, 400 was in fact the goal, well last summer I skipped 400 and went right to 522, and he wasnt but a little feller :-).

also on the 6.5x55, it is a lot more ctg. handloaded to it's potential in a strong rifle than the 260 rem is unless I am remembering wrong.

Bill

[StarMetal]

You're right. As loaded they are equal, but being the 6.5 Swede holds about five grains more powder it would definately beat the 260 if loaded to potential.

Joe

[shooter2]

I'd love to have a 25-20 or a 32-20. Especially in a neat little package like a Winchester '92. A nice little walking around rifle. If they'd make it I'd stand in line.
I recently traded off a .260 Remington in a Remington model 7. It would put three shots into a nice little cloverleaf at a hundred yards. In fact, I have one or two loads for the .260 and some empty brass that I'll give to anyone on this board just for the price of shipping. Send me a PM if you're interested.

[NVcurmudgeon]

Joe, "corner" is prroper Naval terminology as long as you identify WHICH corner. For example, forward starboard corner.

[45nut]

I just read that USRAC brought back the 25-35 in the '94 .
I have one of the original issue pieces and it is easy to see why the round is warranted for a second go. I just need more time to play but everytime I have shot the trim little gun it has me wanting more.

[C A Plater]

Here is a picture of my T/C Contender in .25-20. I got the barrel from Ed's Contenders. You can get a carbine version too. It is a wonderful caliber in the 10 inch barrel and great fun to shoot.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

That is very much the saame as the .25 Stevens Long rimfire. They planned a high velocity version which would have done just about what you say, but I don't think it was ever marketed, and certainly not much. A possible explanation is that it might have been of marginal safety in the 44 action, of which very large numbers had already been made in the same chambering for the standard version.

[Bret4207]

Well Joe, re-read what I wrote about about long range shooters and read what you wrote. You ran into that 1 in a thousand guy. Good for him.

[JohnH]

For any who may be interested, Taurus is bringing out a line of pump and levers in 357 and 32 Mag www.taurususa.com click on the "Whats New" link. Maybe someone is listening afterall.

45nut, I've heard USRAC was bringing that one back. I bet it does leave you wanting more, Hopefully there will be enough people out there wanting something like the 25-35 to keep it alive this go round. I'd think there would be a huge interest in CAS circles. I certaily hope so.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

The tragic necessity to earn a living delayed my last post until plenty of others had made the same point. A high-velociy .25 rimfire would indeed be an excellent cartridge, but I am a little doubtful whether it could mak 2000 ft./sec. without some ill effects, even though we can do it in the .22 magnum. The basic rule on circular metal pressure vessels (and the rim of a rimfire must withstand pressure on its own) is that for a given pressure, wall thickness needs to be proportional to the square of diameter. Of course we can now draw fairly hard brass rather than copper, but I think about 1700ft./sec. is a bit more likely, and very useful.

I confess to being very fond of my 10lb. .300 H&H Magnum. It has almost exactly the same capacity as the .300 Winchester Magnum, and I don't consider the merits of the straighter body quite as certain as those of the long neck. But outwith the realms of ballistic experimentation, either is a specialised implement. There is a bit of an advantage (not more than that) for long-range accuracy, for shrp-pointed 190 or 200gr. bullets (which it can shoot at considerably higher velocities than smaller .30 rifles) offer a useful saving in wind drift as well as to trajectory. Sighting it to 300 yards imposes no unduly complex point of impact problems at any shorter range. Sighting it for 400 yards or more, however, does. It is the claims of shots over 400 yards that really need to be measured in what used to be called minutes of typewriter.

As to impact ballistics, I have always thought high-power rifles, properly aimed, are more alike than many people think. I think he .30 Magnums, old and new, would be well worth having if you want to make a .30 do for lion or large brown bear - neither of which take any harm from a hundredth of the people the makers sell the things to.

I've go more cause than most to know what a splendid rifle the .260 Remingon is. Three weeks after having my breastbone sawn open, while I still had difficulty finding a comfrable position to sleep, I achieved good shooting in perfect comfort with a friend's .260. (I wasn't till an employment medical and X-ray, a year later, that I found the stainless steel staples went a lot further down than I thought. But itn't functionally different in any way from the current object of my affections, the 6.5mm. Mannlicher-Schoenauer, or even the 7x57 or 6x58 Forster.

Here ius my candidate for a more interesting small-game round than a rimfire. I can't invent it as the .25 Less-than-a-Whisper, though. If you shorten the .25-20 dies and use only part of the length of the cases and chamber reamer, .255 Jeffery, admirably suited to my Army and Navy rook rifle which spent several decades bored out to .410, is what you get. Sorry about the bullet, but I was waiting for the mould.

[beagle]

I just finished making a HP pin assy for GeorgeXXX for a 55A CRamer mould he has. Turned out at 93 grains and the "solid" at 102 grains. What a nice little bullet for a .25/35.

I got tired of messing around and rebarrelled a Marlin 336 with a 1-10 twist Douglas in .25/35. It was worth the trouble./beagle


I just read that USRAC brought back the 25-35 in the '94 .
I have one of the original issue pieces and it is easy to see why the round is warranted for a second go. I just need more time to play but everytime I have shot the trim little gun it has me wanting more.

[floodgate]

John: Sorrry to hear you had to go to surgery, but v. glad to hear you sounding OK now. As to the problems with high performance rimfires, recall that Remington for years (until they recently re-entered the .22 Magnum market) stoutly denied they had ever loaded this round (nemmine some of us had examples clearly headstamped "U"). They had a sharp angle at the rim - body junction and sheared the heads neatly off, where CCI led the way with a case drawing scheme that left this area extra-thick and provided a radius at the junction that stopped the problem. See my post above on the .267 Rem. (cribbed from Chuck Suyddam's excellent "The American [Rimfire] Cartridge"; chauvinism? Not meant that way.). I DO like your neat little .255 Jeffrey (but WHAT is that ugly copper thingie sticking out the front?!?), but a little straight-cased .25 CF would indeed be a nice thing to have, too. Right now, though, I need to get back to finishing up my Stevens No. 44 in a .224" version of the .22 Maynard, which should make a nice little toy. floodgate

[Buckshot]

.........BiS, what a delightfull looking little cartridge! What kind of ballistics do you get with it? Wouldn't that be kewl in a #3 Rem RB? (just to name one action).

.........You know, one of the greatest things about being involved in casting your own (vs merely shooting cast lead) is the multitude of options open to us. While the expense of altering some neat levergun, or other suitable action to one of the older smaller bore cartridges can be substantial, we have the option of making larger ones act like them.

I really enjoyed shooting ground squirrels with my 03A1 Springfield utilizing the Lee C309-113F at 1450 fps with like 8.0grs of SR4756. Ditto the Lyman 77gr RN intended for the 32 ACP with tiny amounts of Bullseye in both the 30-06, 30-30, and 30 M1 carbine Ruger.

While at Winnemucca Tim showed us a superb jem. A Winchester Lo-Wall in 25 Straight. I don't recall the correct name for the cartridge, but it's name is sometimes confused with the 25-20. A nice octagon barrel, front insert tunnel sight with bubble level and rear tang sight. Obviously a old time small game or varmint type rifle. Sure was classy looking.

............Buckshot

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I recently (and this may be in the nature of a confession) bought a set of Corbin dies, for making j**k***d .224 bullets from .22LR cases. On eBay I bought about a thousand supposedly .22 rimfire cases which had never been loaded, and thus did away with the firing-pin indentation, which I've heard described as the only thing which stands between them and the highest benchrest standards of accuracy. Unfired ones will probably lessen the problem of ironing out the crease at the junction of rim and body, which will be as sharp as the chamber edge in fired ones, regardless of how the case was made. Mine had the primers removed by washing, but American shooters might be able to get them in the primed state from this regular seller.

What surprised me was that although undoubtedly of Long Rifle diameter, these cases were considerably longer. (They are in Scotland at the moment, and since this was only a nuisance for the intended purpose, I forgot to take an exact length measurement.) The headstamp was the same as modern Winchester rimfires, not the plain H. So who is to say what project they come from?

I found that a large rifle or pistol centrefire primer was a close fit in the neck, and some kind of tubular punch (so as not to crush the priming composition) would surely press it down to the head. I think it could be detonated through that extra layer of metal, though it would need some sort of metal rim epoxied or crimped in place, to hold the anvil. The return of inside priming! It would surely stand much higher than rimfire pressures, but the snag is the bullet. Heel bullets are a nuisance, and it is too small for bullets of neck ID size, and too small for .17.

The Maynard sounds like a fascinating project, and about the only really valid centrefire conversion of the Stevens 44 - i.e. one that actually does anything better than one of its original rimfire chamberings. Another cartridge which has always appealed to me, though I've never even seen one, is something on the lines of the .270 REN, which is simply the .22 Hornet case expanded to the .270 calibre which makes it perfectly straight. I don't even know the length of the REN, but I think the full-length Hornet case would make a great small Martini cartridge, and a shortened version a very useful one for the target or small-game revolver.

[Scrounger]

We could probably keep a battalion of designers busy for a year with all our ideas. Here's another one I could really go crazy for. You know the Remington .357 Maximum? Great caliber in Contender pistols and carbines. You can shoot very wimpy .38 Special loads in it, or step it up a bit with .357 Magnums, or really roar with the full bore .357 Maximum. All in the same barrel. Now imagine if you will a similar barrel shooting the puny .32 S & W, then the more robust .32 H & R, and finally, a yet to be designed .32 Maximum, flinging a 150 grain bullet, cast of course, downrange at 1800 FPS. Or a 180 grain bullet at perhaps 1500 FPS. I'd buy one in a heartbeat... Then someone would want to neck the case down to .25 caliber, or .22... There's no end!

[Buckshot]

........BiS, the guy (I forget his name) who developed the 270 Ren was a silhuette shooter at the range I use! At one time the Inland Silhuette club used our range one weekend each month and they used to hold the Western regionals there. It was developed for a particular pistol silhuette type regimen. A friend of mine had one for his Contender and found it better then his 30 carbine barrel.

...........Scrounger, "and finally, a yet to be designed .32 Maximum, flinging a 150 grain bullet, cast of course, downrange at 1800 FPS. Or a 180 grain bullet at perhaps 1500 FPS. I'd buy one in a heartbeat... Then someone would want to neck the case down to .25 caliber, or .22..."

Sounds about like the 32-40. Of course it's not a nice trim smaller case, but it does have similar ballistics.

..............Buckshot

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Buckshot, I never chronographed the .255, but it is undoubtedly supersonic, and much louder than a .22 rimfire, with a much flatter trajectory. We don't have anything to speak of to shoot, between large jackrabbit and greyhound-sized deer, so there is clearly a niche for the former, and no need to strive for the latter.

That Winchester might have been for the .25-21 Stevens cartridge, an extremely long slightly tapered case. It isn't usually listed as a Winchester Single Shot cartridge, but they made just about anything on special order, and I'd be surprised if an occasional .25-21 wasn't among them. There are contradictory reports of difficulty and ease of extraction, but that could have a lot to do with condition of the chamber. I think the extreme length would be unnecessary and harmful to consistency of combustion with smokeless powder. But if you feel the need, a 1/8in. per foot taper pin reamer would be about right.

Scrounger, there is no doubt about the versatility of the .357 Maximum with different loads, but I think there would be a penalty in accuracy in firing shorter cartridges in that chamber. Unless the brass is full-length, the bullet would have a chance to topple slightly before engaging with the rifling. There is also the possibility that erosion would widen the chamber, with the result that Maximum cases would become difficult to extract. This is a much over-rated problem with non-corrosive rimfire or black powder cartridges. But it might be significant if you use more than a few full-power Magnums in a Maximum chamber.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Note, though, that not all .32s are the same diameter. You might have trouble finding bullets or moulds for the .32-40 which aren't heavy and flat-nosed. Sizing down 8mm. ones ought to work.) Also it is large for a small action. I never liked the idea of the .30-30 cartridge family in a small Martini, for example, although people do it.

I have necked the .357 Maximum to .22, but like many wildcatters unless they are doing it for the process rather than the results, I found it rendered obsolete in one stroke by the German 5.6x50R which I now use.

I'm not sure if anyone ought to be rechambering a .310 Cadet Martini barrel, unless it is attached to a rifle so rough as to suggest complete remodelling. But the use of easily available brass and dies, with non-heel bullets, is an attractive proposition. .32-20 rechamberings sometimes work, sometimes work with oversized bullets, and sometimes don't allow the expanded neck diameter from doing this. But an option I think should work, is rechambering with a .30 Carbine reamer, and feeding .30 Carbine dies with .32-20 cases and larger bullets. I think this could probably be made to work with bullets of from .316 to .321, which covers most Cadet bores.

[Bret4207]

Buckshot- The cartridge could have been the 25/20 Single Shot. Usually confused with 25/20 WCF.

BiS- If your talking the 44 Stevens, not the 44 1/2 action, then another worthwile alteration is 32 S+W Long from 32 RF. Wonderfull little round for small game and plinking, and can be loaded up to astounding speeds in a strong action. Plenty good for woods walking. Also suitable for Remington #4 RB's, Stevens Favorites. The shorter and less powerful 32 S+W works in the Rem #6 and Stevens Crackshots. Forgoten little rounds.

[BruceB]

As a hopelessly-involved handloader who'd be handloading if it cost MORE than buying factory ammo, I must confess that the idea of any rimfire cartridge bigger than .22 Long Rifle leaves me cold. Handloading some sort of small centerfire case to give ballistic performance similar to the proposed .25 rimfire or like cartridges holds a lot more appeal for ME. I can see the appeal in in the idea, but...not my cuppa tea, dontcha know?

I think I recently saw a Marlin announcement of a run of .32-20 rifles. If so, some of us better jump on it right quick-like.

Regarding extreme-long-range game shooting, anyone here who REALLY has a strong stomach and a good grip on his temper should go to the Big Game Hunting Board at

www.accuratereloading.com

and read a couple of the long-running threads there on this subject. Some there claim RELIABLE, DEAD-CERTAIN kills on big game at well over 1000 yards. You may have to look back a short distance in time to find the multiple-page thread I'm mostly thinking of. I get ticked off just thinking about it...

As usual, I find myself applauding the common-sense attitudes I find here.

[BruceB]

That long-range thread I mentioned at AR is at the extreme bottom of page two, so it may get bumped to page three at any time. There are over 200 responses in the thread!

[Scrounger]

Scrounger, there is no doubt about the versatility of the .357 Maximum with different loads, but I think there would be a penalty in accuracy in firing shorter cartridges in that chamber. Unless the brass is full-length, the bullet would have a chance to topple slightly before engaging with the rifling. There is also the possibility that erosion would widen the chamber, with the result that Maximum cases would become difficult to extract. This is a much over-rated problem with non-corrosive rimfire or black powder cartridges. But it might be significant if you use more than a few full-power Magnums in a Maximum chamber.

I agree, and have never done it, but some people get all warm and fuzzy about the idea. The beauty of reloading is that we can take the Max case and load it all the way down to .22 CB level if we like.

[Scrounger]

........BiS, the guy (I forget his name) who developed the 270 Ren was a silhouette shooter at the range I use! At one time the Inland Silhouette club used our range one weekend each month and they used to hold the Western regionals there. It was developed for a particular pistol silhouette type regimen. A friend of mine had one for his Contender and found it better then his 30 carbine barrel.

...........Scrounger, "and finally, a yet to be designed .32 Maximum, flinging a 150 grain bullet, cast of course, downrange at 1800 FPS. Or a 180 grain bullet at perhaps 1500 FPS. I'd buy one in a heartbeat... Then someone would want to neck the case down to .25 caliber, or .22..."

Sounds about like the 32-40. Of course it's not a nice trim smaller case, but it does have similar ballistics.

..............Buckshot

But the .32-40 with its' tapered case would not be compatible with the smaller pistol cartridges I mentioned, got to be a new .32 Max. And the .270 Ren inventor was a brother of a friend of mine, Gordon Rensing. That came along just after they got tired of reloading (?) the .22 Magnum.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

That Accuratereloading thread was so interesting that I spent a lot more paid-for dialup time on it than it really merits, for someone unengaged in any formal anthropological researches. It was interesting to see Carpetman demonstrating his faith in human decency, by demanding figures from people who make them up as they go along.

There seems, in such circles, to be a blind unawareness of the difference between making a good long-range group, and knowing where it will go next time. The jetstream might be of constant velocity, but the wind blowing over the ground is quite impossible to estimate within a few mph, over a range of many hundreds of yards. It is hard to find a real-life situation in which there is the least significance in temperature, humidity or the two forms of non-wind related drift, one of which varies with the direction of the direction of the shot. But I think these people might do it.

To look on the bright side, quite a few people who didn't want their membership of the human race to lapse, kept up their end of the argument quite well. If a natural nausea makes people let these claims go unchallenged, they will think their views are getting the results they deserve, and it might be worth their while to take up hunting and try to do these things in real life.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I've a vague and uncertain memory that someone made the .22 WRM into a centrefire, with the orthodox small primer, and there are advantages to it. I know it's been done with the 5mm. Remington rimfire, after they played the shabby trick of discontinuing the ammunition for a rifle of which quite a number had been sold.

[StarMetal]

Art

I've heard and thougt too that firing a shorter case cartridge in a chamber made for and identical cartridge but longer would result in less accuracy. I've shot alot of 38 special target wadcutters out of my Model 19 Smith and there wasn't enough difference to make a difference. Another gun is my Ruger Blackhawk in 45 LC. I have the 45 acp cylinder for it also. The acp cylinder is actually more accurate in this revolver. I know the 45 acp is a little different in that the cartride portion isn't longer but the throats are exceptionally longer then the 45 LC cylinder. The only way to know is to try whatever you have and see what it does. Alot of times a person may be surprised. Look how well 22 shorts shoot of a long rifle chamber.

Joe

[Ballistics in Scotland]

None of these examples are as likely to be harmful as some of those quoted above. The Ruger with different cylinders is unsurprising, for the throat will be straight and of bullet diameter. The pre-Magnum .22 rimfires, with the heel bullet, which is of practically chamber diameter, are in very nearly the same situation.

The only surprising one is the Smith and Wesson, and that might be an exception which goes some way towards proving the rule. It is less than half the step down in case length than maximum to Magnum, and the full wadcutters carry their full diameter much further forward than most other bullets. Besides, what we'd consider excellent accuracy from a revolver might seem a bit less satisfactory with a rifle.

[Bullshop]

I've a vague and uncertain memory that someone made the .22 WRM into a centrefire, with the orthodox small primer, and there are advantages to it. I know it's been done with the 5mm. Remington rimfire, after they played the shabby trick of discontinuing the ammunition for a rifle of which quite a number had been sold. ***
I thought that was quite shamfull or Remington and it did have the effect of turning me to other makers. Just left a bad tast with me when I realised we are not important just the bottom line. An excelent little cartridge that I thought might see a revival when the 17 HMR prouved the market. But Rem prolly didnt want to open any old wounds with loyal customers. I just recently finished conversion of one of the Rem 5mm rifles to 5mm center fire. It is a very simple conversion and is reversible for colecter value. All parts are available from Shroader Bullet Works including dies and brass and bullets. With the advent of the 204 Ruger we now have good quality bullets available also.
BIC/BS

[Willbird]

On those extra long 22 lr cases, I wonder if those might have been for making the crimped 22 shot ctg ??

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Ah yes, western civilisation's method of getting some fun out of the cockroach problem. Now that is a possibility, all right. One does tend to forget guns that aren't meant to be pointed in quite the right direction.

[Poygan]

Weren't the CCI Stinger cases longer than the regular long rifle cases?

[carpetman]

Starmetal---You mentioned 25-06 Remingtonman and his long range shooting(years of practice). He was only 17 when I first started reading his posts. Last account I had of him,he was 19 and a senior in high school. He was contemplating going into the USMC---to be a sniper. I dont know if he could pass their weight standard as he was like 6"3" and 128 pounds. He shot everything way over all listed max. The max was to be ignored and someone with his vast experience and knowledge could safely go way above it. His family was moving from a small town in Oregon(forgot name of it--but I could find it out my neighbor has family there)to a town I think in Montana. At about that same time,I sent him some .243 cast bullets. Never heard from him again. Had his EMAIL address and my E's didnt come back,but were suddenly never answered. I think his first name was Cory or possibly Tory???Anyways was wondering if anyone has possibly ran across him on any of the other boards? He was not a bullet caster.

[StarMetal]

Ray

That sounds like him exactly. He was a very interesting young fellow and seemed pretty no nonsense and like he knew what he was doing. He also said alot of times he would never harvest a deer at long range unless he was positive and confident that he could do it each and every time. If you remember he said he had a farmer friend that let him practice long range shooting in one of his very large fields. Gee hope he didn't lose that range. I'd be interested in hearing what has become of him. That was one thing nice about old Shooters, it just wasn't only Cast Boolits.

Joe

[carpetman]

Starmetal---Joe you are correct he was no nonsense----he didnt have time for non sense from trying to defend his posistion from attacks by several that considered what he had said as absurd. He did a great deal of back peddling. For example that part he would never take a 500-600 yard shot on game unless he knew he would get it. You can KNOW what the wind is doing all the way out to 600 yards etc etc etc???? A lot of his theories would work on a keyboard,but many felt they wouldn't in real life. He would have been a good firefighter as he was constantly fighting flames.

[JohnH]

We could probably keep a battalion of designers busy for a year with all our ideas. Here's another one I could really go crazy for. You know the Remington .357 Maximum? Great caliber in Contender pistols and carbines. You can shoot very wimpy .38 Special loads in it, or step it up a bit with .357 Magnums, or really roar with the full bore .357 Maximum. All in the same barrel. Now imagine if you will a similar barrel shooting the puny .32 S & W, then the more robust .32 H & R, and finally, a yet to be designed .32 Maximum, flinging a 150 grain bullet, cast of course, downrange at 1800 FPS. Or a 180 grain bullet at perhaps 1500 FPS. I'd buy one in a heartbeat... Then someone would want to neck the case down to .25 caliber, or .22... There's no end!

I dearly love my 357 Max Handi rifle. I've lost some hair and while other has gone gray finding a few low velocity loads it likes, but it is a joy with them so long as I don't start thinking I should be getting 1/4 MOA groups from it. Were it lega for the purpose here, it would make one fine turkey rifle. Head shots on squirell would be a nice challange, but anything weighing 10 pounds or more is in deep doo. I've killed more than a few pesky beaver with it and one deer. 'Tis a shame that none of the rifle makers picked this cartridge up, it would be a real scream in a 94 or 336. For practical purposes it'll do anything the 38 Special or 30-30 will do. One hell of a lot of fun, one of those unknown must have's. And yes, I've had many thoughts of 30/357, 7/357 and 25/357 Max's.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Something like the Stinger occurred to me, but they are CCI, definitely nickel-plated, and shorter then mine, which have a Winchester headstamp. I might be wrong, but I think Winchester's only hypervelocity .22 is the Yellow Jacket, and it has a standard .22 LR case length.

If we are thinking of the same person, didn't he want to be a sniper without having decided on an organisation, or even a reason? I disapproved of this more than I thought it useful to say. But I mentioned that snipers tell you the shooting is the smallest part of their skill, that if you are successful there is no limit to the cost of the technology an enemy will direct at you personally, or that even the SS found their executioners always suffered psychological damage sooner or later. But I got the feeling I could have been talking in tones only dogs could hear.

[9.3X62AL]

I'm getting a little time in grade with three of the calibers mentioned here--the 25-20 WCF, 25-35 WCF, and 32-20 WCF.

I also was happy to see Winchester re-introduce the 25-35 this year in their 1894 series rifles. I believe these will have the standard 1-8" twist like my WWII-vintage rifle has, and the twist does BAD THINGS to short/light bullets of both jacketed and cast composition accuracy-wise. Beagle's 1-10" twist is a MUCH better idea in that caliber. If I keep velocities at around 1600 FPS or less, the NEI 114 grain flatnose shoots VERY well in my rifle. The Hornady 117 grain RN is a fine shooter too, clear up to 2300 FPS. On the small blacktails and muleys in the local mountains, this load would do all right to 100 yards. I wouldn't take marginal shots, though.

I'm currently assembling some test shots for the 25-20/Marlin 94 CL using Lyman #257420 and #257312 sized at .260". These boolits sized at .258" did weird things--half the hits from a 10-shot series would be in a nice cluster, while the other half went wide. We'll see if fatter is better.

The 32-20 Marlin CCL awaits load testing with RL-7 powder and the Lee Soup Cans. Again, I think this boolit lacks diameter and a purpose-built mold is in order. With the cast critters, the 32-20 and 30 Carbine (Marlin 62) are so much alike as to be twins.

The two smaller cases are just right for 90% of the varmint shooting I do. If I could find a smaller boolit for the 25-35 that shot well, it would get the nod, too. The NEI 114's do decent work on jackrabbits, for sure.

[beagle]

Remember the old days of the "mosqeeto"(sp?) when one of the big manufacturers (probably Remington)marketed the small clays, shot cartridges and smooth bore .22s.

Shooting big grasshoppers on the wing was all the rage one summer and then it died out real quick.

I was halway expecting Remington to bring back the 5mm rimfire through Aguila in Mejico but so far, I haven't seen any interest or indications./beagle

[Willbird]

Oddly enough roughly 1 out of 50 times a 22lr shot will kill 2 chickens at 25 yards with one shot...........the whole story is pretty long and boring, the lesson is that it is they CAN be lethal to medium sized animals once in awile hehe

Bill

[waksupi]

Back when I was a younker, I shot grasshoppers, and bumble bees on the flight. But I didn't sink to the depths of shot cartridges. It was all with LR .22 standard bullets. But back then, I could see well, and had better reflexes. I was also pretty darn good at killing quail on the wing at the flush with the .22.
Most likely considered most unsporting now, but it was food for the family back then.

[drinks]

The .25-35 '94 is still available at some closeout places, also the .38-40, not a small bore , but
, as factory loaded, a small game load.
I like the Lee 113 in my .303 Savage '99 carbine at 1500-1700 fps, makes a fine small game, not varmint, load. [I do not shoot what I shall not eat, unless protecting domestic animals or people], also have very good results with a 90gr w gc Lyman in my .243 at 1600fps to 2300fps, also a fine small game load.
The NEF ss in .243 would do for a substitute .25-20, with cast bullets , and the 7-08 or .30-30 would make loads that would cover all the .30-.32-.35 rimfires and small capacity cf's easily.
I really enjoy rolling my own and like to keep the load appropriate to the game.
Don ;D

[Dale53]

I have a 25/20 Marlin late issue lever gun and I dearly love it. It is THE answer to a small game rifle.

However, I recently decided that I wanted to play with another small game cartridge just for Sh*ts and Grins. I had a TC carbine with everything except the barrel. I had JDJones (SSK Industries) make me up a .32 H&R Mag 22" carbine barrel. I am having a ball with this. You fellows that are complaining because there is no rifle for a small game cartridge ought to consider a TC Contender Carbine. Mine has a terrific trigger and shoots VERY well. It weighs 6.25 lbs complete with a 2x7 scope and mount. I recommend that you, as I did, also get an adjustable objective. I consider this a 100 yard (125 yard max) rifle and as such, just like a .22 the cartridge calls for an adjustable objective so that the close small game shots are in perfect focus without a parallax problem.

The .32 should work as well as the 25/20 for small game and has the advantage of a straight case (carbide sizer) so when I run LOTS thru the Dillon I don't have to worry about applying and removing case lube. You can load the cartridge from the performance of a .32 S&W, thru the S&W Long, to the .32 H&R mag. I have shot a plain base bullet to exceed 1700 fps without leading and with decent accuracy. Of course, you have the advantage of using GC's if you desire.

I will be shooting mostly with plain base as that does everything that I need in a .32 carbine. The 1550 fps load gets 1100 fps in my revolver, also. I will probably load down for squirrels in the sub sonic level.

I'll tell you one thing, it is sure nice to run a 1000 loads in a couple of hours on the Dillon.

At any rate, it is hard to beat the TC carbine for a small game rifle, whichever cartridge you choose. Light, accurate, and a terrific trigger.

FWIW
Dale53

[felix]

One thing they do need to do is make them in the right twists. ... Joe

Well, Joe, you got that one right!

The 32 mag case has the same rim diameter as the 221-222-223 has, saving the cost of re-making a bolt face. Might have to consider a good gun with easy switch barrel capability. I would like to try a 25 fireball as my first go-around. 14 twist. No different than the 25-357 mag, right? ... felix

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
I got to shoot a 218 bee in a little Martine falling block a bit 1 summer long ago, in the 70's, what a sweatheart.
I agree the 223 has probibly influanced the disapperace of many of the old 22s,
on the other hand the 223 is not a bad cartrage.
I say this even though I have never owned one.

[Char-Gar]

I am a fan of the 25-20 with both a Winchester lever and Remington pump in that caliber. However, one of my long unrealized plans/projects is to build a 25 Copperhead.

Back in the mid-60's John Wooters had Jess Stark in Houston barrel a small Sako action to the .222 Remington case necked up to 25 caliber. He used a 1-14 Douglas barrel and the whole rig was made up in a 20" full stocked rifle. He gave it the name of "25 Copperhead".

He used both cast and jacketed and IMHO, this is the absolute total, died in the wool, nee plus ultra rifle for game up to 50 or 60 lbs.

I have so many projects stacked up, I may never get my round tuit. But then again...maybe..just maybe!

Addendum...I have finished shaping and sanding the stock for my NRA Sporter and am now applying the Tru-Oil.. Lordy, Lordy, what a piece of wood!!! Swirls, whirls, mineral streaks running lengthwise, and strong fiddle back grain , all in one piece of Claro which finishes up a dark natural color. Probably not the strongest piece of wood around, it is only a 30-06 and a cast bullet 30-06 to boot.

[35remington]

I'll agree a Contender in .25-20 makes a dandy small game rifle. I have one. Can't imagine anything better for the purpose. I'd recommend it.

But NOT as long as you shoot lead bullets in a T/C Custom Shop barrel in this caliber. T/C's barrels in .25-20 are very poor shooters with lead bullets. Save your money and buy a barrel from one of the small custom barrelmakers instead if shooting lead bullets in a T/C carbine is of interest to you.

[Dale53]

35remington;
I agree with you about TC's barrels. Some of them shoot really well but some of them do not. Typically, the chamber is at fault. That is why I got JDJones to build my ,32 mag barrel. If I later decide to get a 25/20 barrel for the TC it will also be a true custom barrel (NOT TC's Custom Shop, thank you).

Dale53

[454PB]

Most of the fellow shootists that know me tease me constantly about my "cannons". I own and shoot many .44 magnums, .454 Casulls, .7mm Re. magnum, .300 WM, and two .338 WM.

My first centerfire rifle was a Win 92 25/20. I've passed it down to my daughter now, along with a good quantity of handloads using both condom and cast bullets. I still have a .22 Hornet, .222 Rem., and a 22/250. I notice I'm shooting them more now that I have the time (retirement), and having a lot of fun doing it.

Of course I don't want to blow my image by telling all my friends about it.......

[hpdrifter]

most people today want super velocity. Heck, even bowhunters want more speed for flatter trajectories.

Not me. I've killed my share o deer and varmits(although prolly not near as much as most of ya'll) and I like to lob my bullets. I like ladder sights, and I also like rifle reports that don't still deafen you thru hearing protection. A little arcing trajectory is a lotta sport to me. So what if I happen to miss or don't even get close enough, I'll buy me a burger somewhere. I'd like to do some long range TARGET SHOOTING, but me hunting is up close and personal.

I haven't searched out any small caliber rifles(lever or single-shot; thankyou), but they do have their appeal and do sound mighty fun.

[35remington]

Dale, yep, you hit the nail on the head regarding the .25-20 T/C Custom shop barrel problem. The rifling starts immediately off the end of the chamber, which is also overlong in the neck area. There really is no throat, just a very short, very sharp taper into the rifling at the end of the neck. A Cerrosafe casting revealed all this, and these characteristics spell poor accuracy with lead bullets.

As received from the factory, the only loads it would shoot well used the Hornady 60 grain jacketed softpoint. Even the 75 Speer didn't shoot all that well, but accuracy with that bullet increased when I throated the rifle. It also became more consistent with lead bullets, but was still very picky.

The solution was an OTT Contender barrel in .25-20. I did like the 1-10 twist of the T/C barrel, though, so I retained that rifling pitch on the custom job. Sometimes I shoot the 75 grain V-Max or heavier lead bullets at slower velocities and the faster twist helps in that regard.

Back on topic-really, the 25-20 is the cartridge all small game hunters need, but none of them know it because they've never tried it. One of my very favorites, and by far my most often reloaded centerfire rifle cartridge.

[Bigjohn]

G'day fellow casters/shooters;
Please excuse me for jumping in here with a quick response as I have not had the time to read all of the entries and I have to go out in a few minutes.

I recall an article in John Biard's Buckskin Report many years ago call 'Old Man Chapman' which I think sums up the discussion here well.

The story, as I remember it, is about a shooters recollections of a character he met in his childhood years; Old Man Chapman.
Old Man Chapman had been there and done that (but prehaps did not publish his memoirs :-D ) who had returned to the family home to live out his final years.

HIS rifle (By choice or circumstance) was a paper cartridge breech loading civil war vintage SHARPS. Old Man Chapman was always loading for and shooting this rifle on an improvised range at his back door. He encourage the boy (the storyteller) to participate in the reloading and shooting processes.

When deer season came round, most of the towns folk would grab their once a year rifle and head into the woods to bag a deer. The same with Old Man Chapman and the Sharps.

The moment which the boy recalled most vividly was the day Old Man Chapman came in from the woods with the rifle slung over his shoulder a draggin' his deer and the boy asked him' "How many shots to get him, Mr Chapman?" to which Old Man Chapman replied gruffly, "ONE".

I believe the moral of the story is basically, "Choose the firearm suitable for the circumstance you will be shooting in, with which you are capable of completing the task required with one round."

If the old cartridges will do the job or a long range shot is required, choose wisely. I think you all know what I mean.

I had to print off a copy of this thread to read offline due to dail speeds as low as point two of a kbps line speed.

Keep safe, Gentlemen.

John :drinks:

[9.3X62AL]

I'm happy to see this thread and its discussion re-start.

My Marlin rifles in 25-20 and 32-20 as well as the Ruger #1 all feature the short throat and abrupt rifling leade pattern detailed above. I wonder if this throating form was intended for black powder usage "back in the day" when these calibers were developed, possibly to minimize throat area foul-out effects. Just a guess, that. Has anyone tried experiments with ogival boolit forms lacking the square front drive bands usually seen on lever rifle boolit forms?

I suspect the best answer is to modify the leade form to a more gentle taper, as posters have indicated here. This gentler angle seems to make rifles shoot better with more boolit designs, and I did learn that the Ruger's steep leade will shred paper patches quite efficiently. I think that was the most deeply-leaded bore I've ever seen--and I would have paid handsomely for some mercury to resolve it with.

[BAGTIC]

In today's market a modern .25 rimfire cartridge would sell for as much as a .256 Winchester.

I would like to see modern cartridges in .257, .308, etc. based on the .357 Magnum cartridge, the .256 is a good start.

Reviving the .25-20, .32-20 is self defeating. There are so many old guns out there that everyone is afraid to load modern high power rounds for those cartridges for those who want such. personally am happy with low-mid powered loads and lead bullets but there isn't a large enough market that thinks like I do. A newer cartridge that didn't have to worry about antique guns could be loaded in both standard and HV loads as the .25-20 and .32-20 were once.

Another consideration is that the case design of the older cartridges in question are of an obsolescent design with too thin brass, especially the necks. An all new design would produce a cartridge that is more versatile, easier to load, and more durable for reloaders.

[BAGTIC]

The imagined '.32 Maximum', already exists. A few years ago Casull was working on an enlarged higher pressure derivative of the .32 H&R Magnum. It seems to have gotten lost in the division between Casull and Freedom Arms.

What you are describing is something very akin to a .30 carbine. A rimmed .30 carbine case would be a possibility but a cartridge based on an existing case with larger than .308 growth potential would be more versatile.

[StarMetal]

Yeah this is a good thread. Deputy Al and myself are big advocates of such rounds as the 30 Luger, 7.62x25 Tokare, 32 Mag, and 32acp. I'm particulary fond of the 30 Luger. That's one hot performing little round.

Joe

[BAGTIC]

Would the .270 REN fall into this category?

Several years ago I had a little Handirifle rebored for a full length (1.4") variant of the ..270 REN. I left it full length because ffor me the most unpleasant part of reloading is case trimming. Everything else I actually enjoy.

In the future I hope to convert a Handiraifle to .38 S&W with a ball seat for shooting round balls. Should be the perfect close range small game round. I already shoot round balls in another Handirifle chambered for .357 Maximum but I use .357 Magnum cases with the ball seated directly on top of a light charge of compressed Red Dot. Makes a nice quiet subsonic load that kills rabbits, squirrels, etc. very effectively.

[Ricochet]

That ".32 Maximum" case might look a lot like a 7.62x38R Nagant revolver cartridge.

[Dixie Slugs]

Great Thread! After spending my adult life working for the Gun & Ammo Co's I have retired back to my native Florida......I don't even want to look at the Super-Dupper Magnums!
In act, my favorite shooting iron now is a NEF that was rechambered from .357 Mag to .357 Max.
I can load all the way down to the old 38 Long up to. and exceed, the .35 Remington using the 200 gr Remington CL.
If you decide to do this, find a smith that has a reamer designed for rifle leades, not a revolver reamer.
I think the Cowboy shooting is showing a trend in the American shooter/hunters.....a return to a more simple shooting calibers. NEF is selling their single shots as fast as they can make them! The firearm is simple and affordable, with an extra barrel program nobody ca beat! After leaning how to smooth up the action/trigger, they shoot like a dream!
Besides that it is a great cast Boolit gun!!!!! Look at the available mold for it!!! I think I will get a .44 mag barrel and rechamber it for my .44 Mag Max.
Now if Lyman/Saeco would just bring back the old bottom feed pot!...Regards, James@Dixie Slugs

[StarMetal]

James,

I think you may be right. I don't like the big boomers anymore either and find myself shooting smaller milder calibers. My best friend says "Geez, you're reverting back to non-scoped old rifles, especially leveractions and some milsurps". Yup, more fun.

Joe

[Dixie Slugs]

Joe and All......I think it is just learning to re-appreciate some of the old rounds! I still love to crawl into the swamps and TyTy for real Spanish blood wild hogs...........but I find myself slowing down and enjoying the woods........sitting in an oak hammock and watching the sun come up.
Hell, I've even gone back to fishing in the Suwannee River with a fishing pole and mealy worms for Red Belly Bream!
Maybe we went too fast by some real beauty the first time? Old guns, old trucks, old cartridges, old pocket knives, old hunting boots and jackets,........they just seem to have more class!
Oh well, It's time to feed my bulldogs......and maybe cast some boolits!
Regards, James@Dixie Slugs

[lmcollins]

I've been sitting here and reading this whole thread and cannot help but theink of John Wooters 25 Copperhead. This was a 222 necked up to 25 caliber. A 25-222 if you will.

Wooters Made this niece little rifle on a small Sako action with a 1 in 12 or 1 in 14 twist barrel. The 223 was around by then, but he thought he'd done the right thing buy going to the to the 222 case, and reading all the has been said I think he was correct in his actions. His thought was that the 222 case had all of the powder room that was needed, and that he appreciated the longer neck on the 222 round, and since you are using longer 25 bullets you would still have a short enough cartridge OAL to fit in the magazine with a jacketed bullet of up to say 75 grains. One of his key objective was to be able to use cast bullets for small game like pests and fur bearers.

This whole project is well written up in the Wolf pub titled "Wildcat Cartridges." This book ise all consolidated reprints of articles from old "Rifle" magazines. This is what we need.

It could easily be built on one of those niece little CZ action for the
222/223 cartridge family bolt face rifles. I would imagine that these actions have metric threads, so not only would you need a custom reamer, you'd need a smith with the right lathe to fit and chamber the barrel.

I have the JGS book of reamer prints, and think it is in there. It would be a bit of a project since you'd have to fool asround with a stock taper, and figure something that would clean up correctly for enlargeing the barrel chanel. The alternative to that would be to either start from a blank, or re-contour a pretapered blank.

Clymer might also have a reamer print in their online file. Google Clymer Manufacturing and look in their online wildcat offerings. I'm sure that C-H 4D would be able to furnish dies on a custom basis. You'd wat to send them a copy of your reamer print to make sure any tooling the have on hand was like theirs.

Just kind of thinking outloud as a guy who does a bit of his own smithing. Hope my two-bits helped....

[Dixie Slugs]

Great thread! Yes, there are some very interesting wildcats and I have designed a few......7.62x47mm International, .416 Beartooth, .375 Beartooth, and the .44 Mag Max. I did a lot of work years ago with the .25 Improved Krag.
But.......as I said iI settled on the .357 Max because it is super easy to make up on an NEF.
I have shot cast and jacketed, large and small weight bullets, fast and slow burn powder........everything seems to work well!
Now.......If we could get a Winchester thick-wall, low-ball at a reasonable cost!
Regards, James@Dixie Slugs

[Four Fingers of Death]

I love my 22 Hornet Bolt gun and my levers and load for the 32/20, 38 and 357 mag 44 mag and 44/40 30/30, etc, etc and I love tippy toeing around and popping em up close. But i also like smiting things at longer ranges with a realflat shooting bolt rifle. It is fun as well. Try and not grin after vaporising a crow or smacking rabbit at 300yrds. Capital F funnnnnnnnnnnnnn! Mick,

[500bfrman]

Great Thread! After spending my adult life working for the Gun & Ammo Co's I have retired back to my native Florida......I don't even want to look at the Super-Dupper Magnums!


NOw that's funny. Coming from the guy that brings us the terminator:-D

[StarMetal]

James,

I know this is off topic, but doggone your crossed flags icon sure reminds me of the crossed flags emblems on V8 Chevys back in the muscle car era.

Joe

[Bret4207]

MAny replies here mention the NEF Handi rifles. I think there is a market for custom caliber barrels, ala T/C's Fox Ridge Outfitters. Has anyone ever approached them on this? I'd love to have an inexpensive option for my evil experiments.

[35remington]

Yeah, I've gone through Fox Ridge to get a .25-20 barrel for my T/C Carbine.

It absolutely sucked with cast bullets.

If I sent you a picture of the chamber cast you'd see why.

If you order from them, make sure of what you're getting before you buy.

If you want it to shoot lead you'd better supply the reamer.

[JSH]

I won't talk about FR or TC's stuff. I will just say I have enough for now. I don't know how I missed this thread, need to pay attention I guess, more reading than I have time for at the moment.
As to the 30-20 and the 300x221. Some of you may have more experiance with the two than I do. I have been shooting the 30-20 for over 10 years. Started off with FLGC's until I saw the light. This is a factory TC barrel that must have been chambered when the reamer was new. It still has a long forcing cone type throat but will digest everything from 100 grainers up to the 220's. When I got this I also ahd the 300 whisper,aka 300x221. The whisper is long gone and don't care if I ever see another one. The 30-20 is still here along with a sister, only on a BF pistol. The 30-20 will do 95% of what the 300x221 will do. I have used the same loads and same powders with out a hitch.
I have toyed a long time with the thoughts an idea of a well chambered 30-20 in a carbine for a TC. A long time back at a GS, I passed on an old savage or a Stevens chambered in 30-20, it had a tube magazine like a 22RF. I don't recall the model number but wish I had on to fool with now.
I had a 256winmag for about one summer. It was a decent round but it just never tripped my trigger. It is a darn cute little devil of a case though.
I have a 221FB on a TC carbine that was made BY OTT from a Model 7 223 barrel. It is a dandy shooter and climbs right up there quick with the 223.
I also saw in what I read in the above mention of the 30x357. No big deal, take a 357 max or 357 mag and run it into the 300x221 die, there you are. Alo for those of you making 256 brass, that is a good intermediate step.
My thoughts on the superduperwhopperstoppers................
I think 90% of it is an ego trip. If you can't shoot or stand the recoil from say the 30-06,270,308 what in blazes would a fellow think he could shoot a 300killemtwicewithoneshot any better? Dunno myself. Only thing I can figure is that they read to much into the old "knock down" ideas and TONS of energy. All falls back to a poor placed shot with what ever caliber is still that.
The more I go and shoot at the club the more BS I hear. A town idiot was out there a few weeks back and was helping another idiot. One informs the other that the 7.62x39 is not good for anything past 100 yards, about like a 30-30 he says. Here I am shooting my pocket rifle in 30-30. Fellow says it had to be a 44 mag and I was lucky to hit somthing at 200M with it. Nope, it was the lowley thuty thuty and cast bullets too!
Then we started to play with the BF in 30-20. The two idiots wanted to know what the hell that thing was? "And you are going to stand and shoot wayyy out there?" They thought I was nuts and that itty bit cartridge is gonna do what? They laughed for a bit, then they left, after I asked them if they would make the line cold so I could set up another 15 Rams.
That same day before I left a gent shows up with a Dakota in 270W. Shooting some kind of Speer ammo. He had NO idea of what he had. A pie plate at 100Y and 3 out of 5 hits on it and he declared it was good enough for antelope later this month. My bud was there and shot it a few times and asked him if he could move the sight settings around. The fellow said yes but he had her pretty good. A Few clicks of windage a a few clicks of elevation. Smacked the 200M gong. The guy was watching in my spotting scope. He said you hit it the first time but don't know where the last two went. HELL the went right where the were supposed too, right on top of each other. He couldn't believe it walked out there to see for himself. If that gong didn't weigh several hundred pounds I think he would have taken it with him. He wanted to try it but no more ammo. He was going to walmart as they had ammo on sale. We tried to tell him to go back with the same ammo, but I am sure it fell on deaf ears.
As long as we have folks as I described above, there will ALWAYS be a market for a bigger thunder stick. Don't blame it on remchester, blame it on the guys that think a new gun every couple of years will make them shoot better. Besides they had 10-12 boxes of ammo through it and it has to be shot out........................

Dafanition of an over achiever=the guy that comes in first and third in a J**koff contest
Jeff

[Bigjohn]

Well, this is one of the most interesting threads on this site with regards to discussing the various calibre cartridge combinations out there.

When you boil it all down, basically as mention in my previous thread about Old Man Chapman; it's not what your shooting calibre or cartridge wise, but how well you know what it can do and use it within it's capablities. In other words; don't go hunting elephants with a .22 rimfire.:Fire:

I enjoy the opportunity to shoot as many cartridge, calibre and firearm combinations as can can fit in to my shooting life and include amongst the the .55 Boys Anti tank rifle; .54 paper cartridge Sharps and .50 AE Desert Eagle.:Fire:

Put at least one round from the Boys AT Rifle through an old engine block and 'ringbarked' the tip of a finger checking out the hole left by a .54 boolit through a 4gal. (20 litre) oil drum full of water.[smilie=1:

As 4fingermick says in his entry into this debate;
Capital F funnnnnnnnnnnnnn! Mick,
:-D

JSH; yes mate, "They are out there!". We have one here who just had to have a 7mm STW, because that will knock over the game with the muzzle blast. Then he wanted to know how to download the cartridge as he couldn't take the recoil. Ended up trading it in on a Ruger .204" which off the bench I can group inside of .6" or better at 100 yds. Don't know what he can do with it but he should be able to achieve the same.

:drinks:
John

[JSH]

Well, sat here and read through this thread, took three cups of java to do it.
I see there is quite a bit of interest in the 357 max case. A few years back there were quite a bunch of us that got all gung ho on wanting a rimmed 223 type case. I forget now the european designation. But it worked very well in break type action, just hard to come by and pricey in this country. One of us had contacted Starline to see if they would make a run. They would do it,BUT, you footed the bill for ALL of the dies , that of course they kept and it seemed like the minimum order of cases was 100K. Time it was all said and done the 5.7x52R( I think) looked fairly cheap.
I think that case in a straight wall or long taper would equal a lot of the early Maynard types?
I have also thought on the 414 and 445 super mag cases and neck them down to what ever may be desired. I just have not found a "stock" die that would do it. I have the article around here some place on the 22x44mag that Steve Herret did quite a few years back. It was a PITA and case life was short as I recall. On the other hand necked to say 30,25 or 6.5 would be a thought.
Before I caught the CB bug I used to have more extra time in the winter. I actually would either run out of the FLGC's or brass to load. Now that CB's are around it seems as if there is always empty brass or CB's that need sized and lubed.
When I had the free time though the neatest little brain storm I had was to take a 30- 40 or 303 Brit case and run it into a 7BR form and trim die. I still have stupid thoughts on this one. I have looked at a lot of wildcats and still have not seen this done. The 7BR die is just a tad bigger than I would like and after talking to a few fellows with experiance in that area they don't think the dies will work to bump the shoulder in a satisfactory manner. The closest thing that I had seen to thsi was the 7BR rimmed made from the 7x57R brass, that stuff isn't at every corner gunshop. The idea was once again brought up when I aquired a 30BR barrel and form die set.......................... My whole thoughts to the rimmed case was somthing user friendly in the break type actions and those requiring a rimmmed case for extraction.
Actually I am like the rest of us, I should finish some other projects before thoughts lead to others.
A very intereting bunch of thoughts here, stay after it gents. This is one of the better reads that I have seen on net for quite some time.
BTW, if any of you need some 256 brass I have some here that I made and ran across. I can get an approximate number if there is any interest. I would trade it for some 32-20 brass.
Jeff

[Dixie Slugs]

This has been/is a very interesting and informative thread, even if we are discussing two concepts at the same time......existing and baby wildcat cases.
After being in the gun and ammo inudtry for 40 years, iI have seen many changes in attitudes. There was a time that rifle people shot all year. That was the hayday of friendly little calibers. I once hard a very nice Stevens 44 in 25-20 Single Shot....anybody remember that old cartridge? We would spend one day each weekend shooting pasture pest, like amadillos (sp). Those were get times and gret riflemen. It is hard today to even find a range to shoot on.
Since NEF has come out with a single shot that "working people" can afford, I see more "fun" shooting with the little calibers, like the .22 Hornet. I spend more time shooting my .357 Max now days on Dixie's 50 yard range......not a long way, but close. I have a nice 200 grain load worked up and just might hunt woth it this year!
Regards, James@Dixie Slugs

[uscra112]

Yes, some of us know the 25-20ss, even if we were born in 1945. My best one is a Stevens 44 1/2, and despite having a barrel that looks like a log chain was dragged thru it, it has shot 1 minute groups on occasion. Still a mainstay favorite of mine. I make my brass out of .223, so I can't be too critical of that round, although I don't own a gun for it at all.

[Four Fingers of Death]

The .222 rimmed is popular in Australia, being used in the Martini Cadet action. Brass is available, but you can also get a rimless extractor for the Martini. My first rifle was a Martini, but I can't get too excited about them.

A gunstore in Broken Hill (wayyyyyyyyy outback) called Myra's Sports Store produced a run of wildcats based on the 222 and 223 case. I always fancied a 6mm Myra, 223 necked out to 243. Nice little rifle for small and medium game.
Mick.

[shdwlkr]

jeff is that 256 brass for the 256 winchester mag? if it is I might be interested in it.

I have a 32-20 with a 24 inch barrel and a 256 winchester being built for me and it will be on a 24 inch barrel. I have a 357 mag with a 20 inch barrel a 30-30 with a 24 inch barrel and would love to get a 22 hornet someday along with a 45-70 with a 22 inch barrel and 26-28 inch barrel.
With my old eyes 200-250 yards is as far as I want to shoot anymore so the old calibers are really interesting to me. I like the 375 winchester, 356 winchester, 307 winchester, 218 bee, 25-35, 45-60, 44 special etc all in levers as that is what I really like now. I have several bolt actions but the levers just seem to be more fun to shoot. My ten year old handicap kid likes my levers also and shoots most of them too.
I am a throw back to other times as I like to have at least a 24 inch barrel on my rifles unless it is a real pistol cartridge and then I am ok with a 20 inch barrel but wouldn't pass a 24 inch barrelled one up either.
I like the small report from the old calibers and with the price of everything going up I get more bang for my buck with the small calibers.
I also have a 32 and 36 caliber muzzle loaders to play with. See I knew one day I would grow old and that the small old calibers would do just fine for my needs so I bought them while they were available. I figured they wouldn't last long but was stupid and it took me for ever to find the moulds for them but have that taken care of so I am happy. Would love to see the old calibers back and I would most likely buy one of each if they were well made at a fair price.
my 3cents

[Tristan]

I'll see what I can find out about the Rossi, Thanks, JohnH

I've held one, and heard good things about them, but when the fun shop had one in stock I held back too long and it was gone...

I don't think I'll make that mistake again. [smilie=1:

Can anyone comment on the model 92 Rossi's accuracy reputation?

- Tristan

[peter]

That is very interesting every body loves the .25-20 Stevens, but does any one know were to get brass and a Reamer. My chamber is buggerd up.
Othervise my 44 is in very good shape

Cheers

Peter

[7br]

I always fancied a 6mm Myra, 223 necked out to 243. Nice little rifle for small and medium game.
Mick.


Sounds similiar to a 6mm TCU. I have a contender carbine in 7mmTCU and if I use a rifle for deer this year, that will probably be it. If my son decides to go deer hunting, that will be his rifle on his frame. It shoots lights out and I think it is pushing a 120gr bullet about 2600fps.

[Powderface]

I've really enjoyed this discussion very much. Here's what's going on here.

I just picked up a Rem 600 action. The bolt face is the right size, it's going to be a 6mm/223 also called 6/47 and a few other names.

I've had this on the back burner for 15 years. The barrel is ordered, The new trigger & safety is already here. I have to get a new bolt handle, that dog leg that's on there just has to go. I'm still deciding on the new stock design.

When finished, it will be a perfect walking around varminter.

At least that's the plan,

Mike

[Bullshop]

Powderface
Have to make one little correction on ya there bud. The 6x223 is not the 6x47 but is the 6x45. The 45 being the 223 case and the 47 being the 222 mag case. I have a 6x45 on a rem 700 short and it is the most accurate rifle I have. It is one of a two gun set I had built for fur hunting by Slim Lambert when he was in Nome. The 6x45 is my early season mid range rifle. One of my pet loads is with the Speer 70gn tnt at about 3200 fps. Shoots flat to 300 yards and only makes one little hole in a coyote. Tears up fox sumthin awful though. The other rifle is for late season and long range. Its also a rem 700 short with a 28" heavy sporter 1/9" twist chamberd for the 22/243 middlestead. Pet load for that one pushes the 80gn Siera to 3500 fps.
BIC/BS

[carpetman]

Powderface--I bought a 600Rem in 6mm and traded it for a 600Rem in .222 almost before I got home with it so to speak. At that time my grandson was young and the .222 was better for him. He did get a deer with it too. I like .222-good round. A company in Colorado was making a steel trigger guards for 600 Rem and I think they were about $125-$150 last I saw. I still might get one???Funny thing about the doe he shot was that it was about the size of a yearling buck I shot with my 30-06---both hit about same spot and somehow the 30-06 shot one travelled a longer distance. I think it was a case of that yearling just being tougher--should have been dead in his tracks. Goes along with what I have always said--you just dont know till you pull the trigger.

[carpetman]

Bullshop--You confuse me. You use jacketed bullets on coyote and fox and cast on moose. Is there a vast difference in the range on early season and late season?

[MT Gianni]

Can anyone comment on the model 92 Rossi's accuracy reputation?
I have a 92 in 44 MAg and like it with 240-275 gr bullets. It shoots 310 lees acceptable but prefers the 429244. The sight is not the best and would probably be best replaced with a receiver sight but it is a good shooting lever. It is not in the same class as a bench rest gun but neither is the cost or intended application. Gianni.

[Bullshop]

Bullshop--You confuse me. You use jacketed bullets on coyote and fox and cast on moose. Is there a vast difference in the range on early season and late season?

carpetman
I am surprised I assumed I was on your cull list.
Yes there is a vast difference between early and late season. In early season there is little or no snow and still tall grass and some leaves up so there is much more cover. Most hunting is done from call stands and game is called in. The new crop of the year is pretty easy to call in. If you miss they wont be easy again. These are not stands like an eastern hunters dear stand but rather good natural cover locations offering cover for the caller and a field of fire radiating out from the caller in a cone shape. What I look for is a bush or small tree about 3' high that I can sit behind and just see over but it blocks me from view. Then it needs to have taller cover just behind me to break up the outline of my upper body. Most shots will be 50 yards or less. Ocasionaly a shot out to a couple hundred yards may present itself.
In contrast late season hunting involve more still hunting. The snow is deep and things seem more spread out. Most of the lower brush is under the snow now. Now is when you have to hunt like a coyote. When you move always travel in the low gullies for more cover. Never expose yourself over the top of a ridge, always stay on the shaded side of the hill. If you have ever followed a coyote very far you will begin to see how they hunt.
You want to expose yourself as little as possible between stands.
I will move from stand to stand and spot and stalk before the sun comes up, but as soon as you begin to cast a shadow quit moving till the sun is about down. In mid day when the sun is up I just like to get to a high spot and glass for sleepers or catch a nap myself. Coyotes like to take a mid day nap while the sun is warm. They like to bed on a small mound that is far from any cover and out in the open. This way nothing can sneek up on them. You have to train your eye to pick out what looks like a little ball with a point on top. They will curl up in a ball with thier nose to thier tail and one ear up. What your looking for is something that is reflecting light differently than everything else. Once you find that you look for the point, the ear that is always up. You would be surprise how a trained eye can pick them out but an untrained eye will pass them over. When fur prices peaked in the late 70's early 80's I hunted full time for my income from Oct. to Mar. The thing that realy made the difference for me in finding sleepers was when I bought a pair of 10x Sworofskie bino's. I instantly became a better hunter and also became a better paied hunter. Those expensive glasses paid for themselves in a single season. I still have them and when I head out hunting they always hang from my neck right beside my lanyard of calls.
Just as today when I went to check the mail and stole away a couple hours to make a couple call stands my glasses and calls were there.
No fur called in today but I feel refreshed just the same.
I guess that answerd your question, but a bit longer winded than I thought it would be. This kind of hunting is something thats in your blood. If it is you just have to do it. I cant explain it very well, but its like another personality that you have but nobody ever sees it. You keep it hid until you use it and then when your out there you turn it loose and it takes over, you dont think about it, it just hunts!
BIC/BS

[Bullshop]

To be on topic the cartridges I spoke of yesterday, the 6x45, and the 22/243 I do not at all consider them small cartridges, neather do I consider the 223 or similer cartridges as small.
I realy dont know where I would draw the line between small and well I guess not small distinction.
I think it was John Whooters that wrote a couple articles for Handloader/Rifle about what he felt would be a perfect companion rifle for small game, varmint, and even up to deer size game out to 200 yards.
His ideas became known as the 25 copperhead. I have to agree with everything he said even to the point that I have been considering converting my Sako L-461 to the little 25 copperhead.
He had considerd the 47mm/222mag case, which by the way is now the 257 Kimber but felt it would have more powder volume than needed for the intended purpose. So I guess if there is a line between small and not small John may have pegged it right there.
Anyone interested in small cartridges should read those two articles he wrote long ago. Good sound reasoning from a gun writer, something we dont see much anymore.
BIC/BS

[felix]

Dan, I couldn't have said it mobetta myself. The Copperhead would be a fine performer, even if the powder space were expanded a smite for ease of making cases. The idea would be to up a 223 to 25 caliber, and make the neck length identical to that of the 222. Cut the case neck back just enough to make it square. The hardest part of making a case is shortening it. ... felix

[Bent Ramrod]

Peter,

You can get Bertram .25-20 SS brass from Huntington's and (I think) Midway. You can get reamers from Clymer's. If your chamber is merely scratched, sometimes a split or otherwise useless case can be mounted on the end of a screw, coated with lapping compound and used to polish out the rough spots.

[carpetman]

Bullshop--I too believe in good optics. In my books the old Bausch & Lombs made in Rochester NY were as good as they got. You can still find them on EBAY and prices aint too bad. Now you did say one thing---the binoculars around your neck. Get yourself one of those bino straps that goes over the shoulder--not around the neck. The binos stay against your chest and are not flopping around( I realize with coat they aren't flopping and you wear a coat up there---but the weight is off your neck. Try em you'll like em.
But you didnt address using jacketed on coyotes and cast on moose?????????

[HORNET]

Carpetman,
I imagine Bullshop uses the different projectiles due to the differing requirements for performance. With moose (mooses? meeses?), you want a big hole going through and a big exit hole. Cast work perfectly for these requirements. With fur-bearers, you want a very small entry hole and prefer NO exit hole. Holes lower the price of the hide. I used to know a guy that prefered the .17 Rem for fox for just that reason. Getting that kind of performance consistantly with cast boolits tends to be a bit iffy and not justifiable for the potential income loss.

[26Charlie]

Answering MTGianni - Don't know about the Rossi's reputation, but the two I have shoot 3 to 4 inches at 100 yards with cast loads. One is a 20" .44-40, the other is a 16.5" .357 Mag. My anecdotal evidence says they are pretty darn good, for lever action carbines. The .44-40 loads are a 200 gr. SAECO or RCBS bullet with about 10 gr. of UNIQUE or 11 gr. of HERCO. The .357 load which is the best for accuracy and power is a 180 gr. GC or PB of several different designs with 16.5 gr. of H110 and a small rifle primer.

[JohnH]

Well, I believe I've found an answer..... 223 Remington. I have never shot this round much, except in AR15's that belonged to other people, and I always associated with the gearing up for Armageddon mentality. Never really thought of it as a play round.

Got a barrel for my Encore, bought 1500 milsurp 55 grain FMJ bullets, load 'em on top of 7.5 grains of Blue Dot and light it with a small pistol primer, and I'm having more fun than a 10 year old with thier first 22! Cost is about right at 7.5 cents a pop. Load is very accurate, shoots nicely formed 1 1/8" groups at 75 yards. I understand now why the 223 essentially replaced all the other small cartridges. The best all around answer for me and my Encore is prolly gonna be a 300 Whisper. I'll have to talk with Santa about this........

[leftiye]

.25 Rimfire, Could anyone be made interested in a .25 Hornet? Would be somewhat the same, and then probably a little more. I understand it gets 2100 fps out of an 8'' barrel on a converted K22 with 80gr. Speers (I think). So it might even be close to a 25-20 (I'm not too clear as to handloads in a 25-20 and it is a much bigger case). Plus, it could be loaded down as desired to equal a rimfire (lower pressures, you know).
I'm a .221 afficianado myself. I have at present one contender barrel, .22 Hornet persuasion, and one .221 chambering reamer that I want to have get acquainted. Such a cute little thing in Contender Carbine!

[Four Fingers of Death]

I used to carry binos all day long in the tanks when I was a tender young thing in the Army. We hang them off a neck strap and put them inside our tanksuit and did the zipper up to keep them flopping about.

My current (and I think they will be my last pair) are Steiners. They are the night specialised ones, but they work fine in daytime. Where they really shine is at sunrise and sunset heading into dark , where we do a lot of hunting.

I don't move without them, even when we are having lunch by the beach or in a park, my wife and I can be seen with a big and a small pair of Steiners, one, trying to get the big pair off the other. I gotta buy another big pair!

[carpetman]

4fingerMick--I've mentioned this before,for binoculars get the shoulder harness and they stay put on your chest and don't flop. You want big binoculars? Go to EBAY and get a pair of WW2 era Bausch & Lomb 7x50--they are big but Mac truck tough. I'll put em against any for sharpness etc.