Guiding the Unenlightened

[KYCaster]

Gentlemen:[smilie=1: The following question and one person's answer were coppied from "The Unofficial IPSC List". Many times over the years I have heard similar questions and have heard many reasons why lead bullets are or are not, depending on the source of the opinion, a good idea for competition.

I see this as an opportunity to present your views to an audience that may benefit from your combined knowledge. (and maybe increase my bullet sales!) So I would like for anyone who cares to answer DK's questions, to post them here. I'll give the thread a few days to percolate, then post a link on the IPSC list.

I don't know DK, but I do know PVRAONE. He can be a bit of a pain at times:mrgreen: , but he's an OK kinda guy, so please don't treat him too badly.

DK's post:
I do not want this to turn into a battle of the bullet vendors, maybe that could be a different thread.
Short story.
Precision bullets(PB) left me out of ammo, due to no fault of their own - he had die issues. So I had to find another source. Enter Billy Bullets (BB).

With BB I do have leading issues. Cleaned post match with a Lewis Lead remover.

Does anyone have any experience with the effects leading on ISPC style shooting, not long range accuracy stuff?

BB is cheaper then PB and way cheaper the MG (Montana Gold).

So me being cheap, and if the impact is minimal, why not go with a cheaper solution that would result if more $ for more matches.


PVRAONE's answer:
Your gonna get a ton of opinions on this one! But basically the issue is what caliber are you shooting at what velocity? If you are shooting for example a bullet that is traveling at modest speeds, like under a thousand feet per second, it can be managed rather easily, but you will want to clean your barrel more often, and it will of course be harder to do. If you are shooting a hot loaded cartridge, like in an Open gun at 1400fps or so, lead can actually cause harmful effects because it actually gets melted and welded in to the pores of the metal of the barrel. One well known trick is to shoot a half dozen or so jacketed bullets through your barrel after shooting a batch of lead. These seem to "sweep" some of the lead residue out of the barrel for you.

I used to shoot NRA action pistol a lot. I was using down loaded ammo with lead bullets to practice at about a 120 power factor. I found no harmful effects on the barrel even with a residual slight visible coating of lead that I never could quite get rid of. I have even had a couple of barrel makers tell me that this coating could even be beneficial to accuracy, because it grabbed the bullet somewhat and made the spin of the bullet more pronounced.
I doubted the Hell out of that statement, and then went ahead and shot about ten thousand practice rounds of lead bullets to test the theory, and to my amazement, the gun actually did seem to shoot a bit tighter groups. I always practiced with lead after that untill I was just about to shoot a match, then I switched over to jacketed bullets because the lead ones create more smoke to have to see through.

The mix of lead and antimony in various lead bullet recipes is where the difference comes between brands. Some use cleaner lead to begin with, some use scrap crap lead. They all use a slightly different recipe, but basically they are about 90% or so actual lead, and the rest is tin or Antimony to make the bullets harder. The harder the bullet, the less it will lead up your barrel. If you can find old issues of Guns and Ammo, a gentleman named Ross Seyfried wrote many articles on this topic, and they are all very very educational. Ross is a former IPSC World Champion who became a Proffessional Guide in Africa after his IPSC days were over. He has used lead bullets on everything from IPsIc targets, to Cape Buffalo in his handguns, and is probably the authority on the matter. He has stated that one can get very satisfying results with a recipe of like about 95% old wheel weights and 5% tin if you are shooting low velocity loads - he was using them in a .45 ACP at about 750fps - But ask your bullet suppliers what "Brinnel Hardness" their bullets are, and I bet you will find the ones that are hardest cast will lead the least.

Another IpSicker, a noted author and authority named Layne Simpson wrote that he competed in IPSC shooting lead bullets exclusively in his .38 Super and 9x Whatever guns.
He said he didnt like to spend the extra money on jacketed bullets, and other than the muzzle smoke he had to deal with, they performed very well.

Seyfried even casts bullets that are very hard at the base, and soft at the nose to create his own magic hunting bullets. Very interesting reading if you can find it.



I'm eagerly awaiting your replies.:coffee:
Jerry

[Dale53]

I shot IPSC competition at the highest level for five years. I averaged 15,000 rounds per year for a total of 75,000 rounds through one 1911 .45 acp. I had zero leading problems. I had zero accuracy problems. I had zero reliability problems.

Proper cast bullets should work well in any properly set up IPSC pistol.

One thing to keep in mind - I cast ALL of my own bullets.

Dale53

[Buckshot]

".............If you are shooting for example a bullet that is traveling at modest speeds, like under a thousand feet per second, it can be managed rather easily, but you will want to clean your barrel more often, and it will of course be harder to do."

No leading, why mess with the bore condition? However cleaning of the pistol itself to remove possible lube residue from places it doesn't need to be will most likely be called for.

"..............I found no harmful effects on the barrel even with a residual slight visible coating of lead that I never could quite get rid of. "

Each following shot cleans it up and lays it's own. Not really optimum as there is something going on to cause it in the first place.

".............I have even had a couple of barrel makers tell me that this coating could even be beneficial to accuracy, because it grabbed the bullet somewhat and made the spin of the bullet more pronounced."

Whut?!

".............The mix of lead and antimony in various lead bullet recipes is where the difference comes between brands."

Well size DOES matter, too :-)

"............. Some use cleaner lead to begin with, some use scrap crap lead. They all use a slightly different recipe, but basically they are about 90% or so actual lead, and the rest is tin or Antimony to make the bullets harder."

Cleaner lead..........!? :-)

Tin AND antimony. Just antimony and lead is a pure mess in the waiting. Lead and tin works but 10% tin is way expensive, especially in a commercial application especially for Peestol boolits.

"................If you can find old issues of Guns and Ammo, a gentleman named Ross Seyfried wrote many articles on this topic, and they are all very very educational. Ross is a former IPSC World Champion who became a Proffessional Guide in Africa after his IPSC days were over."

That's backwards I believe. Ross's very first article was on paper patching lead and jacketed slugs for use in the African cartridges like the 470, etc.

"..............He has stated that one can get very satisfying results with a recipe of like about 95% old wheel weights and 5% tin if you are shooting low velocity loads - he was using them in a .45 ACP at about 750fps"

Ah, WW and 1-2% tin and a GC will see you to 1600 fps. Sans GC about 1200 - 1400 fps depending.................

"...............But ask your bullet suppliers what "Brinnel Hardness" their bullets are, and I bet you will find the ones that are hardest cast will lead the least."

Don't forget that 'size' thing. You need to know what size ya need.

"...............Another IpSicker, a noted author and authority named Layne Simpson wrote that he competed in IPSC shooting lead bullets exclusively in his .38 Super and 9x Whatever guns. He said he didnt like to spend the extra money on jacketed bullets, and other than the muzzle smoke he had to deal with, they performed very well."

Yup. My Witness in 38 Super shoots 1.5" at 25 yards with the Lyman 147 FNBB over WC820 @ 1260 fps. BHN about 14, Javalina lube, SIZED .357". No leading.

..............Buckshot

[AZ-Stew]

Hmmmm.... Well, yes, this WILL turn out to be a contentious and controversial topic. As they say, "fools rush in"...

Back in the mid-70s, when Practical Pistol still involved "practical" hardware, before the age of the multi-$K compensated auto pistol and skeletonized holster that the ACLU would have a field day with, were any civilian or police officer to carry such a rig on the street and actually have to use it for self-defense... Back when an officer's duty rig was sufficient to compete successfully in local matches, I enjoyed competing in the Southern California area using K- and N-frame Smith & Wessson revolvers in .357, .41 and .44 Magnum calibers, all using cast bullets. Had my competition era not been interrupted by the Navy, which rudely chose to send me to sea for 7 months, I might have actually won a match. When I returned from my cruise, family matters, my exit from active duty and subsequent move out of the area caused me to drop out of competition. The best I ever did in a match was second place, competing against mostly .45 ACP Colt 1911s, GI and civilian issue, some stock and others with trigger jobs, but none of which even remotely resembled today's high-tech 1911 offerings.

My favorite match gun was a S&W model 57, .41 Mag with 6" barrel. I used (and still do) a load of 6.7 (six point seven) grains of Dupont (IMR, Hogdon, whatever) 7625 (gray can) behind a 210 gr Keith SWC, sparked by a CCI standard Large Pistol primer. Velocity: 950 fps. Recoil: Moderate, but very controlable for double-action shooting. This load has power comparable to a standard .45 ACP hardball load and is very accurate. No barrel leading, regardless of the bullet alloy, as long as it's harder than pure lead. I've used this bullet cast of both linotype and softer alloys in full power loads (19.0 gr 2400) and have experienced only very light lead streaks within an inch or so of the muzzle with both the hard and soft alloys. Since the leading is near the muzzle, I'd attribute it to the bullet lube, rather than the alloy hardness or bullet diameter. Not having done any serious experimentation with regard to those three issues, I can't say for sure what the problem was, but I intend to set up some experiments to learn about them now that I have my shop completed and have a place to do the work in an environment that's more laboratory-like.

I have read that in revolvers it's best to have the bullets sized to cylinder throat diameter, rather than barrel groove diameter, and that a softer alloy (not "pure lead soft", but softer than linotype) is preferable to hard so that the bullet base can expand under gas pressure to fill the bore and eliminate powder gas blow-by, which causes most leading. I've never approached this in a scientific manner, so I intend to explore this issue with five calibers, .32, .357, .41, .44 and .45 and report my findings here in this forum. Shouldn't take me more than a year or so to get all the data together. Unfortunately, I have to work for a living, or I'd get it done sooner. Who knows? I might even get around to doing some experiments with the .45 ACP and 9mm if I can find a way to hang onto all my brass (God, I hate chasing it all over the range! That's one of the biggest reasons why I shoot revolvers.).

Anyway, I can report, without further experimentation, that the "blow the leading out with jacketed bullets" recommendation can be a VERY bad choice! I was once shown a S&W model 28 Highway Patrolman N-frame revlover that had the barrel badly bulged immediately in front of the frame by using this tactic. It seems that it was owned by an inexperienced shooter and handloader who had equally inexperienced friends. The owner wanted to do some cheap shooting and purchased some Speer swaged lead 158 gr SWC bullets (they ran about $3/hundred at the time) and loaded them up over a case full of 2400 powder. He didn't have anyone experienced around to tell him (and not enough sense to read the reloading manuals) that those bullets were nearly pure lead and were only suitable for .38 Special-type target loads at about 800 fps max. His were hitting the 1,300 - 1,400 fps range and were blowing right past the rifling in the barrel, shearing off massive amounts of lead in the first inch or so of the barrel. The more he shot, the worse the accuracy became. Checking the barrel between groups, he found the problem: a .32 caliber hole through what was supposed to be a .38 caliber barrel. "No problem", suggested one of his "friends. "Just shoot it out with one of your jacketed Magnum loads. I read that that works reeeely good!", he said. Needless to say (but I'll do it anyway), the bore obstruction presented by the soft lead that was plugging the barrel caused the barrel bulge on the first shot. I have used this method successfully to clear very light lead streaking near the muzzle of the gun, but as I've gotten older (wiser?) I've decided that a good brushing will preform the same job with no chance of damaging the gun.

I can also say with some authority (but I'll include this in my report data after thoroughly investigating it) that the commercial cast SWC bullets that have bevel bases are more prone to leading, regardless of alloy hardness, and less accurate than hand-cast Keith bullets with square bases. I've also used gas check bullets in revlovers, but I haven't found them to be as accurate as plain-based bullets, either. Due to the extra cost and a multitude of variables they present, I won't be including them in my testing. I leave that job to someone with more time and patience than I have to devote to it.

Anyway, there's my $.02. I'll post what I find with regard to alloy hardness, bullet diameter vs. barrel and cylinder throat diameters, bullet lubes and velocities. I might even try a couple of different powders at both ends of the velocity spectrum to see what effect, if any, they have on leading, but I'm digging myself a pretty deep hole now with the number of loads I'm going to have to fire to make these experiments definitive.

Regards,

Stew

[Bass Ackward]

Gentlemen:[smilie=1: The following question and one person's answer were coppied from "The Unofficial IPSC List". Many times over the years I have heard similar questions and have heard many reasons why lead bullets are or are not, depending on the source of the opinion, a good idea for competition.



Jerry,

Look at the proliferation of this board. The fact that people spend time here is that they want to learn. If they were comfortable with their knowledge base, they wouldn't be here. And look at just how in depth you can go into this. Look at how long some of the members have been at this. And in the end, you can still get a bad bullet. Want to bet a competition on that?

I am not sure that I wouldn't agree that for "most people", jacketed is the only bullets that should be used for competition.

I only compete with myself when shooting because I have enough other things in my life that I compete for that I want to get away from. And shooting for me is thereputic. I write the rules and reserve the right to break them if I want the gun to cool or to clean. And in the end, cleaning copper is much easier and faster for me than lead. Cast should provide that break and not add to stress. I shoot almost exclusively cast these days. On the other hand, if you ever did win with your own creations, I believe that the reward would be all so much sweeter.

Nope. Competition is what it is, competition. Shooting is what it is. And they are NOT the same thing. Some guys are casters and some are just shooters. Man should know (learn) his limitations and travel his own path.

[felix]

Chase out a leaded gun with lead boolits having their velocity as low as possible. Won't hurt to add grits, or something reasonably as hard, as a filler to the load. ... felix

[9.3X62AL]

No racegun experience at all here, I used duty rigs in practical pistol competition and PPC/Distinguished work through the 1980's and into the mid-90's. Most of this was done with cast boolits--tools were S&W 586 x 6", 686 x 4", SIG-Sauer P-226 (9mm), P-220 (45 ACP), and S&W M-645 (45 ACP).

Size matters, esp. with 9 x 19 or any other high-pressure round. All those racegun rounds that run such high pressures must be treated like rifles--boolit diameter MUST match throat diameter, and since many of these 9mm barrels run 1-10" twists, rather hard metal helps to keep the critters guided by the rifling. Best bet for those running cast boolits in 9mm x whatever self-loaders is to install a barrel with known minimum chamber and groove diameters (true .355") and slower twist rates--1:16" to 1:20". Felix has suggested 1:26" in past posts, that might be all right. The slower twist and tighter grooves will enable successful use of the plethora of commercial cast boolits out there in 9mm barrels.

45 ACP is LOTS FRIENDLIER to shooters of poured boolits. This caliber is about as dead as 8-track tape decks in the combat competition venues, but in the real world it still rocks. I lost interest in the IPSC-type venues when it locally became a gamesmanship pursuit and equipment battle, and the gamers got huffy when I wouldn't cooperate and finish last against their racegear.

[felix]

Yes, Al. 24-26 twist for 45's; 20-22 twist for 9's. Somebody really makes a 24 twist for the 1911's, but don't remember who. It is/was a match ready barrel, though. STI import from Isreal? Something like that. ... felix

[Bullshop]

The one little thingy that stuck in my throat was the notion that harder alloys will always result in a cleaner bore.
I am not too much into auto loaders but I am a lover of the single action revolver. There are a few writers whoes opinion I have high respect for, but most I feel are like stuffing in the turkey. When we talk of single actions Dave Scovill is one that I listen to. In many of his articles in the handloader and also in his book Loading the Peacemaker I read just the opposite, that in fact too hard an alloy can be the cause of sevear leading due to no obturation and gas seal.
So here I see two differing opinions from different sources. One speaks from experiance as in tons of lead through a rifled tube and is the editer of one of the most highly respected magazines on loading ammo, and the other is a guy at the range. Hmmmm, who should I listen to?
BIC/BS

[StarMetal]

Bullshop,

Listen to what you find. I have found that it depends alot on the gun. Some guns just don't lead much with any kind of bullet...soft or hard. Some are going to lead with anything. I've shot both real hard and soft alloys out of my guns and haven't seen alot of difference. Talking hand guns here, not rifles.

Stew,

I disagree that bevel based bullets lead more and aren't as accurate as plain base. I too have done alot of shooting with both and I don't find the same results you do.

Joe

[AZ-Stew]

StarMetal,

My comments were based on my firing several thousand rounds each of Meister bullets in .38, .41 and .44 calibers, moderate loads, in Smith & Wesson revolvers over the last few years. They provide cheap shooting, but in my experience, don't give the accuracy of the flat-based Keiths I cast myself. Admittedly, I haven't checked their hardness or diameters, since I was going for cost/quantity, rather than relying on them for match accuracy. I haven't worked with bevel-based bullets in auto pistols, so I don't have any opinion regarding them.

Since I don't have a bevel-base SWC mould, I'll have a tough time including these in my testing. However, if you know which commercial casters use which alloys (the associated Brinnel hardness numbers would be appreciated) I'll buy a few of the hardest and softest and include them.

The uncontrolable variable at that point will be bullet diameter, over which the only control I'll have will be to size them smaller. If they're already smaller than the correct fit for my guns, I'm not sure the data collected will have much value. All I can do is try them.

Also, I don't have a Ransom Rest, so I'll have to have someone "blind load" my guns so I don't bias the accuracy results by knowing what I'm shooting. The guns will be rested, but they won't be held as repeatably as they would in the Ransom Rest. That's the best I can do, but the results will have the same value as the rest of my testing.

Anyway, rather than argue about subjective observations, let's collect some data and see if we can come close to a "truth" on the issue. I'll appreciate any additional input you can provide to increase the validity of my results.

Regards,

Stew

[Old Jim]

I shoot .411 200 gr ww bullets with homemade lube out of single action
Ruger 41 Mag. Blackhawks and a Marlin 1894FG for cowboy action shooting. I try to maintain a velocity/energy level equivalent to a duty 45 ACP round, ie this bullet between 800-900 fps.
From Jan to June of this year I shot at least 2 matches a month. At least 120 round of pistol and 60 rounds of rifle a match. I practiced at least once a week and generally shot 100 round of the same ammo.
In June I went to a shoot that was very hot and decided that I had gotten sweat on my guns and that they needed to be cleaned. The last step was running a Lewis lead remover down all three barrels. No lead from any of the three guns.
My point? I don't know other than lead bullets don't have to lead barrels.
The only leading I have ever had was with a 44 Mag and 240 gr Bull-X bullets. The lube was intact on all bullets dug out of a dirt bank. It apparently functioned only as a decoration.

[David R]

It was menioned here that every gun is like a woman. All different. I agree. I have a 45 auto that just won't lead. When accuracy goes south (3, 4 or 500 rounds), I can clean the action and not the barrel. Accuracy will come back.

My K38 leads with the lightest of loads and tons of lube. This is after I made the throats all .3575 and fire lapped the barrel. I even put 500 J boolits through it after that. Its much better than before, but even now it still leads right where the rifling starts.

I just bought a 2" model 35 chiefs special. NO leading of any king no matter what I shoot. I had some 9mm 124 gr TC boolits I cast and hit with one coat of Lee Liquid Alox. Leaded the crap out of my K38. I only shot 10 out of the box of 50. I fired the rest in the model 36 with NO leading. Go figure.

44 Mag, full house loads behind a home cast 240 gr gas check boolit. No lead.

22-250 with a 225646 at 2684 av. No leading

30-06 311466 ahead of 50 grains of 4895 (Don't try this!). Sticky extraction, flat primers, no lead. Accuracy sucked.

David

[Bass Ackward]

30-06 311466 ahead of 50 grains of 4895 (Don't try this!). Sticky extraction, flat primers, no lead. Accuracy sucked.David


David,

Yep. Pressure goes straight up after 48.5 grains with cast. Try about 40 grains and a WLP primer.

[StarMetal]

Stew,

I swaped a mould for a Saecon 4 cavity 200 gr SWC for the 45 acp. It's a single lube groove beveled base bullet. I've been shooting 45acp and 45 Colt for over 30 years. I have semi-auto pistols and rifles, revolvers, and leveractions in those two calibers. I've shot just about every bullet under the sun. I have, at the moment, two highly tuned 1911 Colts (I build my own 1911's) that are very accurate. I can say for a fact that Saeco bevel base is as accurate, in a 45acp and 45 Colt, as any bullet I've ever shot in those 30 plus years. I don't need to compile any data. I know how those two tuned 1911's shoot and can say they and I can tell the difference in accuracy between styles of bullets and I'd bet those two 1911's on putting them into a Ranson rest that the Saeco bevel base is a very accurate bullet.

Look at match rifle bullets. I know this is going to come off as comparing apples and oranges, but most all jacketed match rifle bullets have boattails, with in essence is a bevel base. I can't see why a pistol bullet with a bevel can't benefit from it. I'll admit to probably an inmeasureable minute amount.

So think the bevel base lead bullet lead more because the bevel creates a wedge between itself and the bore to concentrate the powder gases. So far I haven't found any proof of that. They aren't leading anymore then plainbase for me. I believe most of the gas pressure is concentrate on the center of the base.

Joe

[Larry Gibson]

OK, I'll, throw my two bits in here; Years ago I shot a lot of PPC/TRC matches as a LEO firearms instructor. I also shot a lot of IPSC in it's infancy with three M1911s (Combat Comander, Colt series 70 and an early comp M1911). I quit IPSC when the "practical" became a "game" and I to be competative I was forced to do very stupid and non tactical maneuvers. However, my point here is I also fired thousands of cast bullets (it's what I used in practice and in competition) of my own casting and commercial cast. I found the commercial cast bullets with flat bases were as accurate as my own 452460s (the compgun would shoot 7 into 1" at 25 yards) but the bevel based bullets always gave less accuracy (2" in the compgun). Commercial cast bullets (hard cast) always leaded to one degree or another regardless of velocity or powder used. My own cast bullets lubed with Javelina and those commercial cast bullets that I relubed with Javelina did not lead what so ever. All my loads were major powder loads (the 200-205 gr bullets were used over 5 gr Bullseye).

I find quite a few problems with the original post but most others have addressed them specifically. Simply put given good barrels and hard cast bullets of reasonable quality at the velocities mentioned; if the hard cast bullets were not undersize then the problem is one of poor lubrication - period.

Larry Gibson

[AZ-Stew]

StarMetal,

Yes, some match rifle bullets are boat tail designs, but they are also jacketed bullets and do not have to pass a barrel-cylinder gap in a match rifle as they would when fired from a revolver. Gas blow-by is not an issue in this case. In addition, the boat tail design of a match rifle bullet is designed to cut down on drag, resulting in shorter time of flight, thus less wind drift. The small amount of bevel added to some cast handgun bullet designs is not sufficient to affect drag in any meaningful manner. It's intended to make it easier to load the bullet into the case without shearing off the sharp corner that's present in a flat-based design. Such damage to one side of the bullet base would have a major affect on accuracy.

By the laws of physics, the gas pressure in a firearm chamber is equal in all locations at any given instant. Therefore, the gas pressure in the wedge formed by the bevel at the base of a BB bullet is the same as it is in the center of the bullet. My thinking on this is that when a flat based bullet clears the cylinder face of a revolver, the gas behind it escapes at almost a 90 degree angle to the path of the bullet, while a bevel based bullet has the gas escaping parallel to the face of the bevel and at an angle along the path of the bullet until the flat of the base passes the cylinder face. This can only enhance the effect of gas cutting of the edge between the front of the bevel and the side (face) of the rear driving band on a BB bullet. This could contribute to leading, but I don't have the instrumentation to clearly verify it. Such gas cutting can damage the bullet base the same way as shearing the edge of a flat-based bullet while seating it. Either way, accuracy is diminished because the entire circumference of the bullet base must exit the muzzle at the same instant if any accuracy is to be had. This is why I asked you to provide any information you may have regarding the hardness of alloys used by commercial casters to make these bullets. By trying bullets of different hardness, I may be able to draw some conclusions about whether the bevel base actually promotes leading in revolvers. I'd use my own alloys if I could, but since I don't have a BB mould, I was hoping you could help out a bit by providing information on who's casting hard and who's casting soft. I wasn't trying to be a smart a$$ in my last post. I was offering you an opportunity to contribute to my research, which I'll gladly publish here for the benefit of all and will give credit to those who make contributions of their knowledge to my effort.

I've also been casting for over 30 years, but I have to admit that I've used some pretty cheap alloys (reclaimed bullets mixed with WW and pure lead and Linotype and shotgun shot and god-knows-what-else) that have varied greatly in hardness and have cost as little as possible. I've never approached the testing of cast bullets in a truly scientific manner. Since I've constructed my workshop behind the house, I now have a decent place to work where I can approach the topic in an organized manner, have good control over the process and will be able to keep good records. I also don't plan to base all my conclusions on a single bullet design in a single caliber. I'll be working with .32, .38, .41, .44 and .45 caliber bullets. All will be SWC designs, but there will be true Keith styles in all calibers, and some others that will be short-nosed commercial cast bevel-based SWC designs. I have these in .38, .41 and .44 calibers, and may also have some in .45. I don't think anyone is commercially casting BB SWCs in .32. I'll be trying different alloys, 1:20 T:L, 1:10 T:L, WW and Linotype in my Keith moulds. That's should give four distinct hardnesses. I'll try to get a close value of Brinnel hardness to publish with each alloy. I'll also try a fast and a slow burning powder, both for mid-velocity and Magnum loads to try to correlate the speed of the pressure curve rise with any observations of leading. I plan to try a couple of different types of bullet lubes. If you have any lube preferences, I'd be happy to include them. In addition to the revolvers I will use for testing, I have a Winchester M-94 in .45 Colt, a Remington M-788 in .44 Mag and a 14 inch TC Contender barrel in .41 Magnum that can all be used to test these bullets in arms that don't have a barrel/cylinder gap.

I've outlined an awful lot of casting, loading and shooting here for the purpose of collecting and publishing this data so that others might benefit. I've done the same thing on my web site with another hobby (photography) to dispel some myths that were often repeated in photography discussion groups. I don't get a cent from this, but I'm willing to do the work because I want to know the real answers and because I believe it's useful to others. It's called: Giving Back. If there's one thing I've learned from my 30+ years of casting,loading and shooting, it's that I still have a lot to learn, rather than basing all my beliefs on the observation of a single bullet design in one caliber and thinking that there's no more data to collect or knowledge to be gained. If you do have some data (load, velocity, bullet hardness, lube used, accuracy obtained, firearm used, etc.) for your Saeco BB .45 mould, please publish it for the benefit of everyone. Otherwise, your statements about its accuracy would be considered "hearsay" in the engineering and scientific communities. And this discussion group falls into both of those categories. Unless you can nail it down with hard data, it's only a rumor.

As I've mentioned several times, I'll gratefully accept any input you or anyone else may have that you or they believe will make my work more useful to others. That's why we're all here, I hope. The experienced handing down knowledge to the less experienced. I'll do the experimentation, but I'll also be willing to include the experience of others to make the experiments more definitive. This isn't supposed to be a spitting contest, it's supposed to be a collection of knowledge gained through controlled experimentation, and the publication of results in such a manner that the experiments can be repeated or improved upon by other interested parties. That's what I propose to do (photos, where useful, too), but I can guarantee you the results won't be published tomorrow.

Regards,

Stew

[carpetman]

A-Z Stew---You mention gas cutting. I have my doubts about that. Pass lead very quickly through a cutting torch. It doesnt melt. It was there a heck of a long time compared to how long a bullet is in a barrel. You think the flame from powder is as hot as a cutting torch? I dont. So we are getting melt with less heat and a heck of a lot less time exposed?

[omgb]

With gas cutting, pressur is the big deal. Add 30K psi and the flame will have a different effect on the base of a bullet than passing it through a hig temp flame at atmospheric pressure. I not sure though. Not enough to do any more than bring it up. I'm going to check out Veral Smith's book tomorrow and see what he says. So far, he's not been wrong in my experience.

[Char-Gar]

I can't speak to the game at hand, but I can speak to shooting high volumn of cast bullets per years as an old Bullseye shooter in the day of yore. It was not unsual for a top flite competitor to fire 30 to 50K rounds per year. The sport is slower, but accuracy level is demanding to say the least.

"In the day", that sport was shot with nothing but cast bullets, execpt for some service pistol competition that was done with match hardball.

A proper cast bullet, of a proper design, from a proper alloy, with a proper lube, that is a proper fit to the gun won't lead to any significant degree under even the most demanding level of competition.

Of course in those days, most of us were casters, we were not trying to buy super hard, bevel base, worthless wax lubed bullets, because that is what the makers could produce on the cheap.

My experience with store bought cast bullets of all makes has never been up to par with what can be produced in the garage. But the folks today have more money than time and are living life at much an obscene fast pace.

[Bass Ackward]

The small amount of bevel added to some cast handgun bullet designs is not sufficient to affect drag in any meaningful manner. It's intended to make it easier to load the bullet into the case without shearing off the sharp corner that's present in a flat-based design. Such damage to one side of the bullet base would have a major affect on accuracy.Stew


Stew,

This is not entirely the reason for a bevel.

As a PB bullet is sized, (all bores will size if the slug is at least bore diameter) metal is displaced. Sizing from the mid point of the bullet back displaces lead back. This lead can actually come back passed the base of the bullet to form a cup of sorts much like a cup on a shotgun wad. You can see this by sizing .003 or .004 off of a square base slug. Run your finger around the base and feel the difference. Notice how the base starts to .... sharpen with even less sizing than that. Then you also have the lead displaced by the rifling which is why some guys prefer thin based bands on their bullet designs because less has to be displaced and be prone to leading.

The very thin (weakened) nature of this cup not only increases friction in the base area as pressure reacts against it, thus heats to the point of melting depositing lead, ruining bullet balance, and ruining the seal break. But it doesn't transition very well at the cyliner break. Much like a hollow base bullet / wadcutter has pressure / velocity limitations, this can cause problems. Often you will hear a cast shooter say that too large of a bullet in a wheelgun will cause leading problems too. This person is likely experiencing this cup effect at a pressure level that is too high for that bullet hardness / lube combo. Especially if he is filling his considerably larger than bore diameter throats.

And that base really catches hell at the cylinder break. You can see lead deposits start to build up on the face of the cylinder causing problems with tight BC gaped guns which most competition types are. A bystander may be pelted with this metal or your pants can be cut if you are shooting between your knees making you believe you have a "spitter" or an alignment problem. If his bullet was a bevel, metal would still be displaced, but it would be less likely to form that weak cup.

At least that is the theory.

There is also another theory that says that a flat base directs more strap cutting gasses directly up at the gap where a bevel will break and direct it more at an angle towards the forcing cone. So it is supposed to lower flame cutting of the top strap too.

And as far as accuracy goes, the most accurate handgun bullet I ever SAW was a 255 gr BB, 45 caliber shot out of a S&W25-2. For those that think a bevel can't be accurate.

[9.3X62AL]

Maybe the best way to approach the challenges presented by moody guns and uncooperative boolits is to NOT regard these behaviors as "absolutes"--because there are damn few absolutes in this venue, given all the variables present. There is a lot more art than science present when the hammer falls.

A better way to proceed might be to equip a readership or customer base with a good working knowledge of the variables involved--alloy hardness/composition, dimensional relationships, lube characteristics/limitations, powder selections, and an honest appraisal of cast boolit performance capabilities and limitations--then allow the involved hobbyists to make their own assessments and diagnostics in their own firearms. That is what this board really does, just on a larger scale than our thread starter may have meant.

There has been a lot of good information presented so far herein, and we all have opinions about how to get a firearm operating well with castings. It's like NCBS in a way--those attending all come from scattered locations and take differing routes, but we get to the same place at the same time.

[omgb]

FWIW, LaserCast's bevel base .314 bullets for the 32-20 will not shoot for spit in my Browning. They lead starting at 1200 fps and they disperse in a random spray out at 100 yards. I've tried three or four different powders and loads of different charges but these things just won't shoot from my gun. OTOH, Lyman's 311314 shoots like a house a fire with 2400, Lil' Gun and Unique

[fecmech]

Yes, Al. 24-26 twist for 45's; 20-22 twist for 9's. Somebody really makes a 24 twist for the 1911's, but don't remember who. It is/was a match ready barrel, though. STI import from Isreal? Something like that. ... felix
Felix- I believe it is Schueman(sp) who makes the slow twist pistol barrels.

[StarMetal]

omgb,

Lasercast bullets are notorious for leading. They are the ones that claim they have alittle silver in them right? I tried a bunch of them when they were relatively new in my 45's and was the worse leading and THE only bullet that leaded those guns.

Stew,

Felix, myself, and other have talked about gas pressure peaking in the center of the bullet base. Myself and others have found fired bullets that were perfect other then the rifling grooves on them and the plainbase was very cupped by the pressure and with gaschecked bullets the gascheck was very cupped. Before you post they were cupped because they were big and swaged down in a much smaller bore, THEY WEREN'T.

I'm still studying gascutting. I've, again, found undamaged bullets that showed somekind of erosion or cutting from the base up to the first lube groove. The cut starts out sort of like a funnel then tapers off straight to the lube groove. Never have I found any recovered bullets where the base edges were melted round or any part of the base being melted. I don't buy that one poster mentioned there's alot of pressure with the gases and this promotes the cutting. I am thinking along the statement of Carpetman that the bullet isn't exposed long enough. I believe those cuts up the sides that I found on recovered bullets are pressure cuts, from the actually force of the pressure, not from the heat of it melting through. I've seen guys paint the bases of their bullets with a bright paint like gold or silver (they claim you can see them in flight from slower handgun velocities) and the bullets still had the paint on the bases when found. How can that be if the gasses are hot enough to melt the lead bases? Answer: it can't be because, like I said, it's not really melting the base.

I know this isn't a spitting contest like you mentiones, so I said in that post about bevel bases being more accurate in rifles and then I said that the difference probably couldn't be measured in handguns....remember? go back and read.

Bass,

One of the most accurate revolvers to shoot my Saeco beveled bases is indeed a Smith Model 25 in 45 Colt. My three screw Ruger Blackhawk in 45 Colt normally isn't a tack driver, but with the 45acp cylinder in it and with that Saeco beveled base, the dang thing near drills holes....I GOT A LOAD FOR THAT PUPPY!!!

Joe

[felix]

My next acp barrel will be the slow twister. I wonder if that guy can be googled up? ... felix

[felix]

Yes, pressure is equal throughout the chamber for any instant the boolit is not moving. Once it just thinks about moving, then the pressure follows the center of the moving object in a gradient fashion. That is, more towards the center and tailing off at the edges of the moving object and the rest of the cylinder equally. Otherwise, water would never go down the drain! Remember the tornado circle. ... felix

[StarMetal]

Felix,

Being too the bullet is spinning down the barrel, it might be that the bullet base is cupped nicely around because the pressure is in the center as the bullet rotates, sort of like a lathe it's (the base) is being turned around that "peak" of centered pressure.

Joe

[felix]

Yep, Joe. There is a compromise, allright! The center being pushed in must not be so great as to pull the outside diameter into the center. It is going to happen, no matter what. Now, the boolit must be squeezed by the barrel enough to add back that amount of pull-in, back to the tail-circumference of the boolit. If the pull-in is still too much, boolit too soft, then you have an automatic boattail. The bad thing about boattails is that the boolit is not going to be round enough at the crown after undergoing all of that mickymouse. Yes, boolit making is an art, most especially when materials are unknown. ... felix

[carpetman]

omgb---Gonna check with Veral as he has not been wrong. I hear he can help with taxes too.

[fecmech]

My next acp barrel will be the slow twister. I wonder if that guy can be googled up? ... felix
Here is the place Felix. http://www.schuemann.com/ I think his AET barrels start out with the rifleing straight and then twist. Nick

[fecmech]

About a year ago I was involved in a discussion on this board about bases melting and posted a number of pictures showing what I believe is melting and gas cutting with melting. I still my belief there is some melting on plain base bullets although the general concensus on the board was there is not.
The anology of passing your finger thru the cutting torch was repeated a number of times with no effect on your finger. I did'nt think of it at the time but let me put this to you who don't believe as I do. Have you ever had a competitors empty .45 case go down the back of your neck on the firing line?? Pretty damn hot right! Well that case sat inside of a huge heat sink( the barrel) transferring heat for one hell of a long time before being ejected from the gun. Whatever the temperature of that case was at the time of firing was also on the base of the bullet along with the associated pressure. The case was in the barrel pressed tightly to it thru the whole cycle until after the bullet left the barrel and brass transfers heat very well. As far as I'm concerned the torch anology does not work here. Just thought I'd stir the pot a bit. Nick

[StarMetal]

Nick,

A good portion of case heat from an auto loader is from friction of the case being rapidly extracted. Let me give you an example. One of my good friends had a Remington 30-06 autoloading rifle. He had begun reloading with that rifle using a Lee classic handloader, the pound type that only resizes the neck. Hey that brings up "so much for smallbase dies" for auto loaders huh, and he had nary a problem with feeding that rifle. Anyways back to what I was getting at. He fired a group, three shot, and we walked up to the target, then back to the bench. At the bench I noticed the last shot ejected the case on the bench and it rolled back and melted it's way completely through the styrofoam box that he had the ammo in, Remington, you know they used those styrofoam trays. The shell was still too hot to pickup and it had turned bluish purple from the case mouth to well down past the shoulder. The rifle didn't do this with factory or full lenght sized reloads. It was because the ammo was just necksized and the body just loose enough to fit the chamber. It was friction that made that brass so hot. By the way there was another round in the chamber, unfired, and the rifle still pointed at the target that we had just examined. I scolded his ass off for that one, thinking, hey, that round could have cooked off. We ejected it and it was might hot.

So in closing your theory for brass temperature for what temperature the bullet may be exposed to doesn't hold water in my book. Don't believe me? Take a 357 revolver put one round in it and fire it and then empty the case as fast as you can into your hand. Big difference from an auto loader.

Joe

[fecmech]

Joe I don't buy the friction idea, the heat is there from the burning of the powder imo. Run the case quickly in and out of a size die, I don't think it will melt any styro. As far as the revolver to auto comparison the time for the brass in the heat sink is apples to oranges. The case is out of the auto in milliseconds, I would say it would take more than a second to eject the case from a revo. That is more than enough time for most of the heat to transfer form the thin brass case walls into a cool steel heat sink. Nick

[felix]

Run your finger through the blue flame from a blow torch. Little hotter than just an open flame from the wood pile. Now, increase the flame temperature to 4K F. Do it again. Much hotter. Now, trap your finger on all sides with something that will direct that latter flame into the finger. Seems to me that revolters can get a little lead in front of the boolit by "skin" vaporization/sublimation. The lube just might grab enough heat to help matters provided an exquisite boolit fit and gun timing. ... felix

[9.3X62AL]

Lotta food for thought in THIS thread.......vintage Cast Boolits!

We may be straying a little far afield from the original intent of the initial post--and that's fine, we all learn a lot when that happens. I believe the thrust was toward prevention of barrel leading and maximizing accuracy potential with the castings.

For Felix et al......given correct alloy for the pressure impulse being used in a given application, how extensive is the boolit's base distention from that pressure impulse? I'm asking if the distention could result in sufficient deformation to affect form consistency from shot to shot. My guess is that the distention under a correct alloy/pressure ratio is negligible....but if the pressure is too high for the alloy being used, could the distention/deformation be part of the reason why gas cutting slips past a boolit sidewall? I firmly believe that gas cutting is the primary cause of barrel leading, BTW. The late Walt Melander has a very succinct description of how this occurs on his company's website (www.neihandtools.com), and that text makes a lot of sense to this here social science major.

[felix]

Yeah, Al, true. If you can think it up, it is probably happening with cast boolits most especially. Revolters provide the flames of hell for show and tell. ... felix

[StarMetal]

Fecmech

If you could extract that case from a sizing die as fast as a semi auto rifle or pistol could it would be really hot, believe me. If you don't believe speed has anything to do with it take the old bow-drill fire starters. Where they took a bow, wrap the string around a wood shaft with a semi point and spun it in a hole in another piece of wood to create friction to spark some embers. Now if they did this slow, guess what? No ember because no friction. They spun them fast. If a case gets as hot as you say out of that 45acp a revolver case still would hold enough heat to burn you finger and they don't. Look at the piddily 22 rimfire. In a semi those little casing are darn hot. Don't give me no BS that the powder does that alone. Take too Remington rifles in 30-06 or 22 rimfire, one a pump and one an auto-loader. Now don't tell me you can't shuck a pump gun to extract a shell faster then you can get a 357 case out of a revolver cylinder. The pump gun casings won't be near as hot as the auto-loader. If you haven't or can't do the test don't make the assumptions....I have and I'm afraid to say you're opinion just isn't correct.

I don't think bases get melted, but I do believe that the gases CUT up the sides of the bullet. Even jacketed roundnose like 45acp hardball has a very large area of real soft lead exposed on their bases, they don't melt

Joe

[KYCaster]

Well, I have to admit that I'm just a little surprised by the responses to this thread; although I shouldn't be. Any question posed to this Rogue's Gallery is likely to result in 1800 different answers. I suppose the only thing you can guarantee to be true is that there are no absolutes when you're dealing with cast bullets. And there are always several different ways to accomplish the same desired effect.


One comment that made me think a bit was by Bass Ackward, he said:
"Look at how long some of the members have been at this. And in the end, you can still get a bad bullet. Want to bet a competition on that?

I am not sure that I wouldn't agree that for "most people", jacketed is the only bullets that should be used for competition. "........

I am aware that that attitude does exist, but I have never personally considered it an option because of the level I compete at. It would be nice to stand in the winner's circle occasionally, but I can't realisticly expect to be there, in spite of USPSA's current "welfare" prize distribution, with five divisions, five classes and four catagories, almost everyone goes home with some kind of recognition. I like to compare it to church sponsered basketball league for six year olds where they don't keep score cause somebody's feelings will get hurt so everybody gets a participation trophy. I once read an interview with Doug Koenig. He said that one bad round could cost him $2500 so he doesn't trust factory loaded ammo for serious competition. He visually inspects every primer, every bullet and weighs every powder charge. That's fine, but the most a loss will cost me is a beer, so I don't find that level of care is justified. YMMV



A statement by Chargar probably sums it up best:

"A proper cast bullet, of a proper design, from a proper alloy, with a proper lube, that is a proper fit to the gun won't lead to any significant degree under even the most demanding level of competition."

That begs the question, "What is proper?"
The answer is, "It depends."
Every situation is unique, so one size doesn't ever fit all. DK's original question concerned commercial cast bullets so that's what I will address. I think I'm qualified to discuss the subject cause I've been selling bullets for about eighteen years and for the last twelve or so have sold at least two million (bullets, not dollars:roll: ) annually and sometimes more, depending on how much time my "real job" allows. The best advise I can give is, keep trying different vendors till you find one that works for you. Most of the guys selling to the high volumn market (IPSC, IDPA, gun shows) are making a very similar product; same equipment (Magma or Balisticast), same alloy (92-6-2 or reclaimed wheel weight), same lubes with some variation.
The biggest difference you will find is in size and lube. Both have a big effect on your results.

Sometimes the size a caster chooses defies logic. Early in my casting carreer, one of my competitors sized .45ACP to .450 dia. He never had a complaint about feeding or reliability, but hits on small targets past 15yds. were sometimes a problem and keyholeing was quite common. One very outspoken guy who had a tight chambered gun made it difficult for me to sell any .452 bullets. The best I can do is size to .001 over the most common groove dia. for the cartridge and offer the option for other sizes. Call me two weeks before the match or show and I'll deliver.

Lube can be a huge problem. In the past forty years I've tried pretty much every lube available. The first was RCBS, worked fine for .38 wadcutters at 700fps., but wasn't worth crap on .357 at 1200. I know lots of people swear by Lee Liquid Ear Wax, I can't stand the mess; although I am going to try it in a Krag with an eroded throat to see if I can get a 314299 to fit a little better.(everything does have a place)
The biggest problem I have with lube is not finding one that will do the job in the barrel, but one that will do the job in the box. The guy I bought my first casting maching from made lube with bees wax, parafine and Crayolas for color. It wasn't much of a lube and it didn't take long to improve on his formula, but the problems began when I started shipping to other areas. A guy in Florida complained cause all the lube was a sticky mass in the bottom of the box. It melted at about 105*.
Another guy in Michigan complained cause the lube fell off the bullet after sitting in an unheated garage over the winter. It shrank enough that it broke the sticky bond to the bullet. Eventually I found a guy in Garland, Texas (David Thompson) who makes the ultimate commercial bullet lube. I know you can make an excellent lube with bees wax, parafine, soap, eye of newt, hair of toad, just ask Felix, but all I have to do is call up Dave and two weeks later the big brown truck drops off 25 pounds of it, the right size, any color I want. The only hard part is writing the check and that doesn't hurt me as much as spending the time to make the lube.
I've seen alot of comments on this board about "those hard commercial lubes" and how they're still on the bullet when you dig it out of the backstop. Well, you just haven't tried the right one. I've used Dave's lube on everything from 600fps. .38 to 2200fps. .35Rem and .303 with excellent results. The only issue I've found with it is low temp. I'm still testing, but it appears that at ambient temp. below ~30* and velocities above ~1200 it takes two or three shots to condition the bore.

Bottom line is, nobody has all the answers, but it shouldn't be difficult to find a commercial cast bullet that will serve you well in IPSC competition, just find somebody with enough knowledge to point you to the right product.

To DK, if you have any questions, feel free to ask, or follow the links at the top of this thread and you'll probably find more answers than you can deal with. Confused?......Welcome to the asylum!!!!!!

Jerry

[carpetman]

Starmetal---You dont reckon that part of the reason the auto cases come out hotter is that they're using hot gas blow back to operate things do you? Not as fast as a semi auto--but for example with my Mod 12 pump I can have three cases in the air at once.

[fecmech]

Fecmech

. Don't give me no BS that the powder does that alone.

If you haven't or can't do the test don't make the assumptions....I have and I'm afraid to say you're opinion just isn't correct.

Joe

Joe-- You need to lighten up a bit. We'll just have to agree to disagree. Nick

[felix]

Friction adds little to the heat felt. The heat comes from the powder at 4K F, or at least 1000F before the case gets ejected. The heat remains in the case because of the time is not sufficient for the heat to dissipate to the surrounding chamber. ... felix

[StarMetal]

Have either of you two fellows heard of friction stir welding? Don't tell me that the friction adds little heat.

Joe

[felix]

Joe, keep adding the heat by having a case design that dissappears within the chamber immediately after firing, and another placed into position for a string of shots, and that 4000 F continually added to the bolt-chamber junction will weld the bolt to the chamber! You bet! So, you are right after all! ... felix

[StarMetal]

Felix and Fecmech,

I'm not mad and sorry if I'm coming at this alittle strong, but I know I'm right. Neither of you two fellows explained why my friends Remington 742 semi-auto rifle in 30-06 ejected EXTREMELY hot brass that was only necksized and yet ejected normal heated brass when using factory or fully resized ammo.

For those of you that don't know what friction stir welding is, it is a method of welding metal together where there is a call for the original metal not to be disturbed as much as it would in a more conventional type welding, that is, for example, melting the two metals and adding a metal to join them. The two metals are brought close together and a "nib" (the friction creating tool) is run between them creating friction that is hot enough to weld the two metals together. The distance, the nib, the speed, and many other things have to be highly controlled. The resulting weld has less molelecular metal crystal change then if it was melted with say an arc welder type welding.

I wish I had the means to build a rifle that would fire and eject a cartridge without powder, but by using air pressure alone. It would be an eye opener to how hot brass gets to being yanked out of a chamber in a micro-second. Don't forget guys, that after firing the brass case does shrink back some from grabbing the chamber walls tightly, but it's not as loose as one may think. Also in semi auto rifle or handguns, unlock timing is an important issue of when that brass is being extracted from the chamber. In other words, the brass may begin to be extracted and it's not fully shrunk back yet. That creates alot of friction. Couple this to the powder having just burned and heated the case up already, you have alot more heat in fast violenty extracted brass.

Joe

[slughammer]

With BB I do have leading issues. Cleaned post match with a Lewis Lead remover.

Does anyone have any experience with the effects leading on ISPC style shooting, not long range accuracy stuff?

BB is cheaper then PB and way cheaper the MG (Montana Gold).

So me being cheap, and if the impact is minimal, why not go with a cheaper solution that would result if more $ for more matches.



Suggestion, leave the leading in the barrel and go to the range with the sand bags. You'll need to test to see if there is a loss of accuracy. Don't assume there is one. Put the gun on the bags and see.

For IPSC shooting, you need to be able to rely on the gun to perform in a consistent manner. If the gun shoots the same leaded and unleaded, then you can rely on consistent results.

(FWIW I test at 25 and 50 yards, with 10 round groups)