PDA

View Full Version : cast bullets in my br guns?



mainiac
08-01-2006, 07:51 PM
Been thinking about trying to shoot cast in my br guns.... Have a couple of 6ppc,s and a couple of .30 caliber wildcats. My favorite .30 is a .30 aardvark,(30-30 ackley improved with a tight neck), have barrells between 14 and 17 twist. Wonder how good cast would shoot out of these match barrells? What bullet would i use? If i choose to exept this mission, it might drive me to insanity, because these guns shoot 1 hole groups with hand made J-bullets and getting a cast bullet to shoot like that just might not be possible? Dont know,but am thinking about finding out.I bet felix has tried this???

felix
08-01-2006, 08:01 PM
You bet! Do it, and don't look back. Match boolit length to twist. Lead is heavier on the circumference, so boolit can be longer for same twist. Target boolits have fairly thick jackets (J4), and that means even more advantage to lead in terms of twist. ... felix

mainiac
08-01-2006, 08:44 PM
could i expect .300-.500 groups? What bullet would you use? My most accurate barrell by far is a 15 inch twist shilen, and would probaly screw this one on for the big experiment. I have burned many pounds of v-133 powder threw these barrells, could i just reduce and use this powder(under 2000f.p.s.) compared to full throttle and 2950 f.p.s.? Felix, i could ask a thousand questions on this topic,but ill quit for now. thanks

45 2.1
08-01-2006, 09:26 PM
I'm using a 308 bull gun that was used for position shooting. With the boolit correct for twist and properly fitted with correct alloy and load, you can expect groups in the range you quoted. The RCBS 308-165-SIL is a good off the shelf mold to try in the 30 caliber. That mold in my rifle would give 1/2" groups pretty well on demand in reasonable conditions.

felix
08-01-2006, 09:40 PM
Ask questions one at a time, so an answer can be made compact and to the point. Yes, you can reduce the load, but that won't give you satisfaction without using fillers. 133 is a stick powder, and it's granule size won't handle a fine grained filler like PSB, plastic shotgun balls, the only stuff recommended for a filler. 322 or equivalent should be on your shelf. That might work OK with a filler. Your best bet overall is to pick a faster powder that can deliver the same pressure or slightly less with less than a full case load. Try N110 at 11 grains, for example, in the 6PPC's. Just play around with 2400, 4227, BlueDot, and be leary of ball powders because of their deterrent coatings which can cause ignition havoc. Don't forget pistol primers! ... felix

cbrick
08-02-2006, 01:53 AM
mainiac, you might want to consider joining the CBA (Cast Bullet Association). You'll get their book and you can participate in the CB matches, you already have the guns . It'll really speed up your alloy education.

Rick

Char-Gar
08-02-2006, 09:01 PM
Cast bullets can be made to shoot into your expectations. It won't be as easy to do, as there are more factors and variables with cast, as opposed to those awful little yellow thingies. If you are up for a challenge, have at it. When you get there, there satisfaction will be comensurate with the challenge.

Billwnr
08-03-2006, 12:10 AM
could i expect .300-.500 groups? What bullet would you use? My most accurate barrell by far is a 15 inch twist shilen, and would probaly screw this one on for the big experiment. I have burned many pounds of v-133 powder threw these barrells, could i just reduce and use this powder(under 2000f.p.s.) compared to full throttle and 2950 f.p.s.? Felix, i could ask a thousand questions on this topic,but ill quit for now. thanks

1 in 15 is getting kinda slow. 1 in 12 is the standard for the .30 BR which is the short .308 case. Your groups will open up if you get over 2200 fps and you'll need to shoot linotype or an alloy that's mostly lino once you get above 1900fps. Also, you may have problems with your throat. Cast bullet BR guns have a shallow angle leade and jacketed bullets have a much sharper angle.

Just things to look out for.

stephen perry
08-19-2010, 09:15 PM
You asked for Cast bullets for a 30-30 A. Several would work. First 311 41 a Classic flat nose about 178 grn. Try with Unique powder. A couple more 311 466 and 311 467. Both Loverin designs always shoot well. If you want to go heavy 311 284 and 311 299. I would stay with Unique powder with all these bullets I size .309. Keep asking Felix one question at a time.

I feel you could expect 1/2" groups from Cast in a BR gun. To get 3/10" groups your asking what near perfect jacketed bullets do. You must use wind flags and Match cases. Go for the 1/2" groups first and try for the 3/10" groups on occasion. That's a realistic goal.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

Doc Highwall
08-19-2010, 09:49 PM
I am shooting a Remington 40X in 308 Win and I have shot a lot of groups less then 1/2" and my record is .305" using Federal gold medal cases that have over .001" neck wall variance. I am working with the new Lapua 308 Palma cases that are much better and with a new set of dies that I just finished modifying for cast bullets. You can check out the pictures in the reloading equipment under modifying dies for cast bullet shooting.

XWrench3
08-20-2010, 04:12 PM
the best groups my rifles (all of them) have ever shot have been from cast boolits. i can not imagine why yours would not benifit from them. the thing you should check into though, is if you can use cast boolits in competition or not. if you can not, it might be defeating your purpose for doing this. the best group i ever shot was from my box stock (other than i adjusted the trigger) remington 700 300 win mag with a 3-9x40 scope. the 5 shot group measued .462" @ 100 yards. not bad for a totally stock rifle.

Armorer
08-20-2010, 09:07 PM
OK ya'll this thread has me amped up and wanting to start pouring for my .308 Just a plain jane Stevens model 200 with a 1 in 10, but with 168 Gr Bergers she is a tack driver at 100 yds. This is my deer rifle, so I'd be looking at something in the 150 -175 Gr range. I'm new to casting so this may sound silly but where do I begin? I cast .45 ACP, 40 S&W and .44 Mag but it never really occured to me to cast for rifle. Any thoughts or points in the right direction would be greatly appreciated.

Doc Highwall
08-20-2010, 09:14 PM
Two thing for us to know when somebody asks a question like that. What kind of gun and what are you going to use it for? I assume you are going to use your Stevens Model 200, but are you going to target/ plink with it or are you going to hunt with it?

cbrick
08-20-2010, 09:27 PM
Armorer, RCBS 180 FPGC, 18-20 Gr SR4759, standard primer. Air cooled clip-on WW w/2% Sn @ 1800-2000 fps, sized .001"-.002" over measured groove diameter and a tack driver in my plain jane single shot 308.

Rick

Armorer
08-20-2010, 10:05 PM
Doc, the simple answer is both. I would like to get comfortable casting and shooting rifle boolits through the Stevens before I try to feed them to my Remington PSS.

Armorer
08-20-2010, 10:13 PM
Rick, excellent! I believe I can do that. Then just seat em to what OAL my rifle likes, just like I do the jacketed bullets? And why the extra tin? The ww don't have enough? I use straight ww for my pistols, albeit water dropped.

Thank you

Doc Highwall
08-20-2010, 10:21 PM
Armorer, the bullet I am using for target shooting the SAECO #315 is great for target shooting but not my first recommendation for hunting due to the exposed grease grooves. For a better hunting bullet I would go with the RCBS 180 FPGC and load like cbrick has posted should work to 100 yds for deer size game.

Armorer
08-20-2010, 10:50 PM
Thanks Doc! I'm going to see what I can do.

runfiverun
08-21-2010, 12:22 AM
remember as with the revolver, throat fit is gonna either be your friend or your enemy.

my wifes savage 0-6 will not shoot the rcbs boolit worth nothing, it likes the rcbs 150fngc
why? dunno, the noses are the same diameter it's just the body length.

my 308 refuses to shoot the rcbs-150, but i can't come up with a bad load with the 165 silhouette boolit unless i exceed it's happy velocity. same with both my 7.5x55's.
and neither will shoot the [walt] nei 150 [similar to the saeco 315] but my 340a savage bolt loves it to death at .310,as does my girls 7.7x58 but at 313,
and my 30-30 [win/94]lever likes the 150 fngc best also.

it's all in the throat boolit relationship.
i measured out the wifes 0-6 and thought the 165 silhouette would be an absolutely perfect fit,apparently the rifle likes a bit more body bearing length.
or just that extra little bit sticking out of the case filling the throat a tad more.
or maybe the extra neck tension.
i think it's a combo of bearing length and throat fill.

damron g
08-21-2010, 12:56 AM
Also, you may have problems with your throat. Cast bullet BR guns have a shallow angle leade and jacketed bullets have a much sharper angle.

I agree with Bill. Jacketed BR gun throats have been too tight an don't give me the accuracy of a 1 to 1.5 deg throated rifle.Running a .3095 x 1.5 deg throater in about .050 or so would be fine for most stock bullet designs .Worn throated high power 308's have done well for me as is though.

A 1/2 MOA or under cast bullet BR rifle is not all that easy to get.You may shoot a lot of groups that size,but your averages will not be close to that long haul. It takes top quality true BR actions,a hummer barrel,bump dies,etc..to get the constancy it takes to get average close to that.You hear guys bragging on their 308 varminters shooting 1/2 MOA "on demand" but they never seem to make it to the matches to prove it !If you are really averaging long haul below 3/4 MOA be happy.I have shot a lot of CBA matches and that accuracy will usually get you in the money unless you are shooting against Mel Harris's rail gun.



George

Doc Highwall
08-21-2010, 06:55 AM
damron g, I agree with you about 1/2" on demand, my gun is close to that but the loose nut behind the butt plate has to do his part also. I am getting ready to leave for the range now for some more 300 yard testing with my 308 Win 40X and I have been posting my results in the reloading equipment section under Modifying dies for cast bullet shooting, check it out and give me your thoughts.

damron g
08-21-2010, 02:53 PM
damron g, I agree with you about 1/2" on demand, my gun is close to that but the loose nut behind the butt plate has to do his part also. I am getting ready to leave for the range now for some more 300 yard testing with my 308 Win 40X and I have been posting my results in the reloading equipment section under Modifying dies for cast bullet shooting, check it out and give me your thoughts.

I had a trued 40x in 30BR about 15 years back that was close to 1/2 MOA for a few consecutive groups,but not long term.At 200 yards and wind just killed it as well.Darn bag handling was a big factor for me at 200 and 300 shooting.My new Shilen 40x isn't as accurate but shoots s few very small ones on occasion.

George

Crash_Corrigan
08-25-2010, 07:59 PM
I have a 6.5 x 55 MM Sweede that was built on Mauser 98/22 Action and with a Match Grade Douglas barrel and an excellent bedded laminated thumb hole stock it will put j word 140 grn bullets into a quarter at 100 yds if I do my part.

Messing with cast I tried a Lyman 266469 that makes a nice 140 boolit and lubed with lars Carnuba Red and loaded over 10 gr of Unique will shoot into 1 1/2" all day long. The benefit to me is that the recoil is nothing, cost is low and to get that 3/4" tighter group with J words ain't worth the money.

Do you know that them things cost? It is obscene and a waste of my hard earned bucks to waste them on bullets when I can make good ones from ww's.

I can sit on the 100 to 300 yd line and have at all kinds of gongs and baloons and get the thrills of knowing that I made the boolit, assembled the round and I am shooting at a very reasonable cost. Don't ask me what I have spent on this addiction over the last 17 years but I have 1 and 1/2 rooms full of gear all connected to firearms, shooting, casting and reloading.

I still trying to get a loading for this boolit that would use a real rifle powder but then I would be getting into paper patching and the use of fillers. I have tried both of those black arts with my 303 Brit and Garand with some success.

damron g
08-26-2010, 02:49 AM
"10 gr of Unique will shoot into 1 1/2" all day long. The benefit to me is that the recoil is nothing, cost is low and to get that 3/4" tighter group with J words ain't worth the money"

I agree.I give up a bit of accuracy with GC bullets that cost 4.00 per hundred rather than $30 j-bo's.I can shoot 100 rounds offhand with no fatigue for cheap and 1.5 MOA is OK for 100 and 200 yard stuff and a waste of jacketed bullets anyhow.I can buy a new mold and make 1000's of bullets for the cost of 200 Sierra Matchkings!!

George

303Guy
08-26-2010, 03:06 PM
... it will put j word 140 grn bullets into a quarter at 100 yds if I do my part. I'm convinced (perhaps on sketchy or dodgy evidence) that cast boolits will shoot every bit as good as a j-word. However, the gun will be a lot fussyer over the cast boolit. I took a good bored 303 Brit (the barrel had seen 450 Mk VIII cordite machine gun rounds in one day and a few hundred j-words more) and proceded to make a casting to fit the throat ans now slightly enlarged leade and bore start. This was a smooth sided GC boolit - the GC formed the base plug of the mold - and surface lubed and on first outing it shot MOA even though my heartbeat was causing a MOA shake to the gun. I was using Varget loaded to produce arounf 1800fps for that 245gr casting (which was too long for the mag).

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-745F_edited-1.jpg 220gr Sample
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-637F_edited-1.jpg

There is nothing BR quality about the Lee Enfield (this one caries furniture of my own making and a 4X scope)

How I did the rear scope mount to clear the bolt dust cover. It's a 1902 fitted with a new Mk4 barrel.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-539F-1.jpg

I've got too many Lee Enfields to be able to use all of them so I'll interested in tweeking this ones trigger and trying my hand at bench rest with it. (I need a use for it).[smilie=1:

I'm thinking that because the barrel and action stresses developed by mild cast boolit loads are fairly low, the gun should work quite well with it's lighter barrel and flexi-action. Firing pin strike could be a problem but I know this gun will fire from a very much shorter striker travel so maybe I can fix that problem.

madsenshooter
08-26-2010, 04:16 PM
Join the CBA! I've shot alongside those benchresters, some of whom build rail guns even, and I have to say the teenie tiny groups are throughly disgusting to a fellow shooting a Krag with a 6x scope! Get the 30s going first, then if you want to play with the 6mm, I have the cherry for the Eagan MX2-243, takes a tight bored barrel though. There's some pics of it on pgs 1 & 2 of this thread: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=69594 Don't get it confused with the main subject of the thread. I haven't had a chance to try them out myself yet. Got a heavy Obermyer 6mm barrel mated to a Krag receiver, about as far as I've gotten.

303Guy
08-26-2010, 04:37 PM
Get the 30s going first, then if you want to play with the 6mm, ...Again, from limited experience, I agree with that. It get's difficult to cast smaller boolits. The sprue plate hole has to be big enough to let the lead flow fast enough so the smaller the boolit the more difficult it gets. Freezing rates also dictate that a smaller diameter boolit is going to make it harder to get the molten alloy to flow down into the freeze cavity in the centre of the casting. Now swaging those castings into perfection might be a consideration but requires a little bit of engineering and forces one into using smooth sides unless the engineering goes up a level or two. Fairly hard/tough alloys can be swaged to the point of flowing out a nose bleed hole.

PAT303
08-26-2010, 08:01 PM
I have a 6.5 x 55 MM Sweede that was built on Mauser 98/22 Action and with a Match Grade Douglas barrel and an excellent bedded laminated thumb hole stock it will put j word 140 grn bullets into a quarter at 100 yds if I do my part.

Messing with cast I tried a Lyman 266469 that makes a nice 140 boolit and lubed with lars Carnuba Red and loaded over 10 gr of Unique will shoot into 1 1/2" all day long. The benefit to me is that the recoil is nothing, cost is low and to get that 3/4" tighter group with J words ain't worth the money.

Do you know that them things cost? It is obscene and a waste of my hard earned bucks to waste them on bullets when I can make good ones from ww's.

I can sit on the 100 to 300 yd line and have at all kinds of gongs and baloons and get the thrills of knowing that I made the boolit, assembled the round and I am shooting at a very reasonable cost. Don't ask me what I have spent on this addiction over the last 17 years but I have 1 and 1/2 rooms full of gear all connected to firearms, shooting, casting and reloading.

I still trying to get a loading for this boolit that would use a real rifle powder but then I would be getting into paper patching and the use of fillers. I have tried both of those black arts with my 303 Brit and Garand with some success.

Crash I have a very similar 6.5.I load 10grns of Trail boss and mine shoots inside an inch at 100.I also use 18grns of 2400 but it shoots hotter. Pat

w30wcf
09-13-2010, 09:19 AM
I knew a fellow that had Eagan make a 70 gr nose pour mold for his 6MM PPC. If I recall correctly, the bullet was made with a slight taper to fit the tapered throat in his rifle. He said that he was getting extremely good accuracy at close to 3,000 f.p.s.

Unfortunately, he passed on a few years ago.

w30wcf