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View Full Version : UNIVERSAL clays is great



Willbird
05-07-2005, 09:13 PM
I loaded some UNIVERSAL clays today, seems like a great powder for 45 colt and 44 magnum. 10.2 grains in my 44 magnum redhawk with a 240ly-keith beagled to .432 seemed to shoot real good. advert velocity for that load is 1244fps

8.0 grains in 45 colt with the heavy Lee roundflat was very nice to shoot, that load is advert at 941 fps

Both loads seemed to shoot very clean.

Bill

StarMetal
05-07-2005, 09:37 PM
Willbird

For years I used Unique in my 45LC and it was just fine. I decided to try the Universal Clays and found that it shot very very clean and that it was pretty close to Unique burning rate. Sounds perfect except for one thing, it didn't shoot as accurate as when using Unique. I tested it out on quite a few guns (both hanguns and rifles). I also chronoed it to get the same velocities I was getting with Unique, but it still wouldn't match Unique's accuracy. I just shot the stuff up and haven't bought anymore of it.

At the present I'm shooting some Clays in a 30 Luger. Now this stuff is alot faster, just about like bullseye. It too burns clean. I just mentioned this since it's in the Clays series of powder and didn't mean for you to try it in the 45 LC. I think it's too fast and the little amount of it in no ways would fill the large 45 LC case.

Joe

beagle
05-07-2005, 09:44 PM
My favorite in the .41 Magnum also./beagle

Willbird
05-07-2005, 09:48 PM
Oh I have used the Clays too Star, in 357 and 45 acp, great stuff, but not for loads where you want more poop.

There are loads listed for 45 colt for clays, and it does bulk up more than bullseye thus making double charges easier to spot I think.


Bill

Scrounger
05-07-2005, 10:25 PM
Joe, there is an unchambered .30 cal 1911 barrel on Ebay. It generates wild thoughts, doesn't it?

StarMetal
05-07-2005, 10:28 PM
Art

Boy, it sure does. Lot of possibilities there. You thinking about getting it?

Joe

StarMetal
05-07-2005, 10:35 PM
Art

Wow, thirteen inches long too! You could make an artillery 30 Luger out that except on a 1911...guess an artillery 1911. There's a Colt 38 Super barrel there too cheap and it's new. You could make that 357 Sig from that. Find yourself a 9mm/38super slide at a reasonable price.

Joe

Scrounger
05-07-2005, 10:58 PM
Art

Wow, thirteen inches long too! You could make an artillery 30 Luger out that except on a 1911...guess an artillery 1911. There's a Colt 38 Super barrel there too cheap and it's new. You could make that 357 Sig from that. Find yourself a 9mm/38super slide at a reasonable price.

Joe

I'm also looking at this one. Some pretty impressive velocities...

The 9x25mm Dillon is formed by necking the 10mm Auto case to 9mm with a sharp shoulder and short neck. This creates a relatively high capacity pistol cartridge which is based on a high pressure case. With the proper bullet and powder the 9x25mm Dillon can generate significant muzzle energy and it easily achieves IPSC Major Power momentum levels. Vihtavouri has recently designed a powder (tentatively called N105) specifically for this and similar cartridges. Hodgdon will soon announce a similar new powder in their extensive product line. Appropriate 9mm bullets are readily available. The future is bright for this cartridge, which might very well achieve commercialization very soon. Springfield Armory offers guns in this chambering and several custom barrel makers chamber their tubes for this round. Representing an increasingly unique example of the breed, the 9x25mm Dillon meets a recognized need.


Source: Cartridges of the World


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


9x25mm Dillon Reloading Data
Bullet (grs.) Powder / (grs.) MV ME Source
100 FMJ/RN No. 9 / 15.3 1751 680 Lyman
100 FMJ/RN W296 / 17.2 1769 690 Lyman
115 JHP Her-2400 / 13.0 1587 640 Lyman
115 JHP W296 / 15.0 1566 625 Lyman
124 FMJ/FP W296 / 14.4 1529 640 Lyman
130 Cast W296 / 13.5 1479 630 Lyman (#356634)

StarMetal
05-07-2005, 11:05 PM
Art

I read about that cartridge. There were a bunch of them when the 357 Sig was in the making and that one you mentioned sure sounded like a hot one to me. It's impressive. You concidering one?

Joe

Scrounger
05-08-2005, 12:46 AM
Art

I read about that cartridge. There were a bunch of them when the 357 Sig was in the making and that one you mentioned sure sounded like a hot one to me. It's impressive. You considering one?

Joe

I was looking for a smaller caliber, high velocity round I could just buy a barrel and drop in a 1911. You know, cheap and easy. But everything seems to require a different slide and other parts as well. Heck, I could probably buy a Glock or SIG for what it would take to convert a 1911. What about something else? An Auto Mag in ..22Mag or .30 Carbine? They still make them? Any semi-auto pistols in .17 HMR? My original thought, .38/45 Clerke might still be the best solution...

StarMetal
05-08-2005, 01:18 AM
Art

You bring back old memories with those Auto Mags. I always wanted one of those in 22 Mag. I don't think they make them anymore Art. The 38/45 is okay. When I first got mine I shot the daylights out of it. You know what, that son of a gun was surprisingly accurate. Funny because it was built on a 9mm barrel and man I tell you, I never saw any 9mm Colt barrel shoot like that 38/45. This was with a RCBS 124 gr Truncated Cone cast bullet over some Unique. Group was five shots into 3/4 inch at 25 yards. I still have the barrel and occassionally shoot it. Like I told you before Art, you can't really hot rod it without getting into trouble unless you do alot of mods. Now if you used a fully supported chamber, which means a ramped barrel, which means mods to the frame, bush the firing pin to a small pin such as for the 9mm, and make your cases from say 45 Win mag or 45 Supers, then you'll be fine. The problem with the chamber that's not fully supported is the webs can blow out on the cases and this blows the magazine out of the gun and shatters the wood grips. Seen my friend do after I warned him not to load it hot. Art if you want I'll contact that previous owner of Springfield Armory and see what he can come up with for a slide and barrel for your 357 Sig conversion. I know he was going to sell me a completed upper in 9mm for $270. He has a bunch of those. I was going to have the barrle sleeved for 30 Luger, maybe the 7.62x25 Tokarev. Art, that 7.62x25 is one hot 30 caliber round. To give you an example it beats the 32 Mag. The only 30 that comes to mind that beats it is the 30 carbine. Let me know.

Joe

Scrounger
05-08-2005, 02:13 AM
Art

You bring back old memories with those Auto Mags. I always wanted one of those in 22 Mag. I don't think they make them anymore Art. The 38/45 is okay. When I first got mine I shot the daylights out of it. You know what, that son of a gun was surprisingly accurate. Funny because it was built on a 9mm barrel and man I tell you, I never saw any 9mm Colt barrel shoot like that 38/45. This was with a RCBS 124 gr Truncated Cone cast bullet over some Unique. Group was five shots into 3/4 inch at 25 yards. I still have the barrel and occassionally shoot it. Like I told you before Art, you can't really hot rod it without getting into trouble unless you do alot of mods. Now if you used a fully supported chamber, which means a ramped barrel, which means mods to the frame, bush the firing pin to a small pin such as for the 9mm, and make your cases from say 45 Win mag or 45 Supers, then you'll be fine. The problem with the chamber that's not fully supported is the webs can blow out on the cases and this blows the magazine out of the gun and shatters the wood grips. Seen my friend do after I warned him not to load it hot. Art if you want I'll contact that previous owner of Springfield Armory and see what he can come up with for a slide and barrel for your 357 Sig conversion. I know he was going to sell me a completed upper in 9mm for $270. He has a bunch of those. I was going to have the barrle sleeved for 30 Luger, maybe the 7.62x25 Tokarev. Art, that 7.62x25 is one hot 30 caliber round. To give you an example it beats the 32 Mag. The only 30 that comes to mind that beats it is the 30 carbine. Let me know.

Joe
Sounds good to me...

Willbird
05-08-2005, 12:35 PM
Well for a drop in ctg. with factory ammo (winchestor) and factory brass you guys are totally overlooking the 9x21.

It has many strong points, it may not do what the necked down 10mm will but you can have a 9x21 and I guess a 38 super, and a 9x19 all with just a bbl swap.

http://www.gunweek.com/2003/feature1001.html

another idea towards the 38/45 idea would be to use 45 gap brass, which has a very strong web sort of like the 9x21 does, this is to make up for the large feedramp in der plasticpeestolas I guess.


Bill

StarMetal
05-08-2005, 12:51 PM
Willbird

You're right the 9x21 is a neat round. Not much mods there to a 9mm barrel, or you can get the 9x21 barrels new.

I thought of the GAP case necked to the 38/45 but I thought it would be too short. Not worried about the powder capacity, but the stubby round may not function right out of the magazine, maybe feeding problems. The 38/45 is a pretty stubby round to start with when made on the 45 acp case.

Joe

Willbird
05-08-2005, 04:51 PM
Good point on it being short, we need 45 super-gap hehe.

Wild Bill Caldwell used 308 cases chopped off, and loads them hotter than heck in several wildcats, uncluding a 22 called the 224 zipperer


Bill

Four Fingers of Death
05-09-2005, 08:04 AM
Art

I read about that cartridge. There were a bunch of them when the 357 Sig was in the making and that one you mentioned sure sounded like a hot one to me. It's impressive. You concidering one?

Joe
This is a recent development in Australia. Our Prime Minister, John Winton (or Winston, I'm not sure) Howard (JWH) was the main reason why we recently lost our right to own bigger than 38cal. This round was bought out by die hard 45 fans who wanted to keep their 1911s. It is based on a 45 case necked down and has serious velocity.

I liked the idea of it, but I owned a Commander and the bbl had to be 120mm or about 4.75 inches and I thought it would look silly, so I reluctantly handed it with my Glock 26 (barrel too short). I immediately went out and bought a Beretta 92FS to replace the Glock (we now have the model 17A on sale here, which is a model 17 with a slightly longer bbl) and a 38 Super to replace the Commander. I really loved the Commander, but I'm growing to like (love!) my 38 Stupor.

I will have to get a 357 JWH 1911 just to get up his nose. Maybe on a Glock platform.

slughammer
05-09-2005, 07:36 PM
In 45 ACP I found about the same 50 yard accuracy as the faster powders I was using, but I also found a 100fps ES in velocity and a bigger boom. No doubt that it is a cleaner alternative to Unique, but my luck with lower pressure rounds like 45 acp and 44spl left me to save the stuff for future trials in higher pressure rounds such as 357 and 9mm.

OT (Scrounger: 9x23, 38 super comp, 38 super and 9x19major are the hot cartriges in USPSA open division at this time. 9 x 21 and 9 x 25 were fairly short lived, but you may be able to pick up a used barrel from one of the custom pistol shops. If you want a 45 breech face welded and recut try EGW Evolution Gun Works. I still like the 45 breech face with something necked down, just as interesting and saves on a new slide AND magazines.)

Blackwater
05-09-2005, 10:11 PM
With all this talk of the faster/flatter rounds for the 1911 platform, has anyone tried the .400 Cor Bon? I got a barrel cheap. It had been through 2 or 3 hands before I got it, and I got it for $69 out the door. Who could have resisted THAT?

The recoil is sharper and maybe just a tad heavier than the std. .45 ACP, but it shot to the exact same POI in my steel framed Commander as the .45 barrel. That was probably just plain old-fashioned luck, but I'll definitely take it! Oh, and in my gun it also shot a bit more accurately, sweetening the deal a bit.

I got some 135, 150 and 165 gr. Cor Bon loadings, and 500 rds. of brass to reload. The caliber has really impressed me, and I think it just may be what the .357 Sig only aspires to be. It out-does the Sig in every department.

I took it with me to a gathering for a shoot, and when I broke it out, I hadn't shot it past 50 yds. I initially took aim on a 7" high steel target at 100 yds., and since I didn't know where POI would be at that range, took a std. 6:00 hold to see how low the bullet would strike. Silly me! I hit that gong with every one of the 8 rds. in the gun! That aint' too shabby!

So far, the only live target I've shot with it was an armadillo, just as it topped the big, wide ditch, and was about to disappear into the tall wire grass. That's the second animal I've ever shot that didn't even quiver, at least that I was able to detect, as it died. It was like shooting a string that was holding a sack of sand. Just went down, and splat, with no movement, no quiver, no nothin'. That was with the 135 gr. Cor Bon factory load at an advertised 1450 fps.

I walked over to examine the carcas, and was amazed when I saw its innards blown out in front of it for about 18". The bullet entered the center of the right ham as the 'diller faced almost straight away from me, and came out just to the left of the center of the chest, at least as far as I could make that out, anyway. Pretty spectacular performance!

I think the .400 would be a very definitive defensive handgun round for "combat" purposes, and likely better (dare I say it?) than my beloved .45 ACP! I DID, however, conclude from that 'diller that I'd use the 150's and maybe 165's for defensive use. Might encounter a BIG man, you know? That 135 might not be any great shakes at penetration, and penetration to the vitals IS a vital part of any round's "killing power."

I've really been impressed with the round, and the quicker recoil impetus lets me actually get back on target maybe a couple of miliseconds quicker, too. The trajectory is WAY better than the .45's, and for field use, that can make an important difference. I'd use it more, but with a bad back, picking up ANY auto pistol's brass just ain't as much "fun" as it used to be.

Of course if they've outlawed over .38 caliber, that won't help any in Australia. Hard to believe what's happening over there. Never met an Aussie I didn't like, but .... well, I guess it's a lot like over here. Those
@#$%^&* city folk sure have some darn funny ideas, don't they????

Just an FYI for anyone who may be interested in things along these lines.

StarMetal
05-09-2005, 11:49 PM
Although I don't own a 357 Sig I'll stick up for it some. The 400 Cor Bond doesn't beat the Sig for what it was designed for and that is to fit into a more small compact semi-auto, offer 100 % reliable feeding because of it's bottleneck design (at least more reliable then any straight sided cartridge, don't forget Bo Clerke invented the 38/45 first and formost for reliable feeding) and to be a man stopper, which our resident experts in the field tell us that the number one first shot kill caliber is a 125 gr 357 caliber bullet and that is exactly what the 357 Sig is. Don't full yourself that a Sig won't throw that bullet as fast or faster then a 357 Revolver.

The thing wrong with the 400 Cor Bon to me is it's not exotic enough, not different enough. It's not even that much smaller then 45. For that matter one can still get a 10mm with is very much like the 400.

Joe

Scrounger
05-10-2005, 12:36 AM
Although I don't own a 357 Sig I'll stick up for it some. The 400 Cor Bond doesn't beat the Sig for what it was designed for and that is to fit into a more small compact semi-auto, offer 100 % reliable feeding because of it's bottleneck design (at least more reliable then any straight sided cartridge, don't forget Bo Clerke invented the 38/45 first and formost for reliable feeding) and to be a man stopper, which our resident experts in the field tell us that the number one first shot kill caliber is a 125 gr 357 caliber bullet and that is exactly what the 357 Sig is. Don't full yourself that a Sig won't throw that bullet as fast or faster then a 357 Revolver.

The thing wrong with the 400 Cor Bon to me is it's not exotic enough, not different enough. It's not even that much smaller then 45. For that matter one can still get a 10mm with is very much like the 400.

Joe

You don't like it, Joe? Hey, that's good enough for me. I'll take it. (just kidding, Joe, don't get upset)(Hey I was buying some lettuce the other day and I saw some strange looking fruit in the produce section: Starfruit ??? Any relation?) Seriously, I have six 1911 type .45s, I need some diversity. But I don't want to buy another gun or do a modification that is going to cost $300 or $400 just for a barrel and slide. This Corbon seems to meet my criteria: It's cheap. It's easy (barrel drop in). It's simple. It gives me a high velocity round. I will investigate further. Oh, anybody want to buy 1000 .357 Sig cases?

StarMetal
05-10-2005, 12:48 AM
Art

That doesn't matter if I don't care for it. If you're happy with that, that's great. It is cheaper to do I'll admit. What is that Starfruit?

Joe

carpetman
05-10-2005, 01:25 AM
Starmetal--What is a Star fruit? With your name,I better be careful here. Oh yea,I remember now. It's a male starfish that likes other male starfish.

Willbird
05-10-2005, 06:51 AM
Actually in a 1911 platform I think the 9x21 on paper looks like a much better ctg. Larger magazine capacity for one thing.

the only real thing the 357 cig has going for it is that you can have a 3 caliber gun 357 cig, 40, and 10mm, only one of which ctg. really fits the 1911 like it should, the 10mm mags actually hold one more round that a 40 mag.You CAN use the 10mm mags with 40 I'm told and they usually work but they made them smaller for a reason.

One reason you can load the 9x21 and the 38 super hotter than 45 acp is the bbl is a lot stronger. 45 sooper isnt loaded to near as high a pressure as 9x21 can be.

Bill

Scrounger
05-10-2005, 09:18 AM
Art

That doesn't matter if I don't care for it. If you're happy with that, that's great. It is cheaper to do I'll admit. What is that Starfruit?

Joe

I don't know what it is, some kind of fruit. Imagine a 5 pointed star with very rounded edges. That's the top view. Now imagine the side view. It is abpot 8 inches tall. That's all I know. It's a funny thing, when I was a kid in Indiana, there was only 5 or 6 different fruits in the market. Now there must be 50 of them. God has sure been busy...

http://photos.gunloads.com/images/Scrounger/starfruitv.jpg

StarMetal
05-10-2005, 11:23 AM
Geez Art, never seen anything like that. You're right, God has been busy.

Joe

wills
05-10-2005, 11:35 AM
http://food.oregonstate.edu/a/star.html

StarMetal
05-10-2005, 11:37 AM
Carpetman Ray

Good one as usual

Joe