Gun forums and businesses.

[Adam10mm]

The American Dream. Entrepreneurship. Ain't it grand? Providing a service or making a product to serve the needs of your fellow Americans, make money, "get richer", live the good life. Do what you know how to do well; the ol' hobby into a business venture.

Many of the members here know me from other forums and have known me for years on them. Few in person, a pair from this very forum. I too had the spirit about me. Got into handloading some 5 years ago. Realized the savings and figured I could make a little side business out of it. Would pay down the credit card debt I acquired through foolish mischief. Perhaps be a full time gig some day supporting my family, having employees, and enjoying the success of my hard work and determination. Ahhh, the good life.

Well, in a nutshell, things look good on paper and I had a miserable business failure. My situation isn't unique in business, but it sure as heck hurts. I wrote a book on my failure in the ammunition manufacturing business. It includes details on what I did wrong as a business manager and how I could have prevented it. Also is geared towards guys like you and me that have some reloading stuff and could get the FFL to make things legal and make some money rolling ammo.

I've given free advice in the past on forums when others want to enter this industry, but those days have come short. I decided to write my book based on it, so all the things I learned- and there are plenty- and paid so dearly a price for that knowledge, would put some money in my pocket. Go into many details and things discussed that most people I talk to think it's the complete opposite. Yeah, me too. That's why I'm in this position. Because I had to figure things out for myself, learn the hard way. I had no mentor, no guide, no book. Just a will to succeed and lots of coffee.

That being said, I will share some thoughts and opinions on the gun businesses (micro businesses, ie less than 6 people). For free. Take it with a grain of salt, but I've been in this industry 3 years and learned tons more than I will share here. Here goes:

Forums are great for marketing. They are free to join, free to sell, and have a couple thousand members to use as a customer base. Sometimes a forum sponsorship is required, which should not be turned down. If you're making money without paying for the use of the site, your signature line, offering your product in every post you can think of that's not "fair" to the forum host. I've been to some forums where there are no sales or trades allowed and others that you must pay a fee to be able to sell and they have strict rules as to how many threads you start, etc.

Forums are getting more and more popular, more than ever. I know it's tough to do business on the Internet, I've been there. I know. But please take this advice from a guy who's been there and done that.

Stay off the forum. This sounds funny, being posted on the forum, but forums are the best and worst places to do business and I can't think of one company that hasn't given up on forums after so long. It isn't a question of if, but when.

I know the cycle. You get all squared away with your new business. You're eager to get the word out. Post on a few forums and wait. Then orders come in, keep coming, work piles on, things get delayed, customers are upset they aren't treated like royalty. Instead of working things out with the company, they will post on the forum and then the dogpile mentality starts. People that have no business with the event that's going on chime in with their 2 cents like they own the place. That fuels the fire. You know where it can end.

Forums are one of the worst places to do business. Why? Lack of customer service. Not so much on your part, but as a state of being. There simply isn't any great customer service from any company on any forum. Period. It goes to a point, then it happens. Been there, done that, seen it all to often. Can't please everyone and the most demanding customers are on gun forums.

You post a thread on the forum. PM's come in. Then an order is placed on your site, payment made. They wait for tracking info when it ships. 2 days later they email you, call and leave a message, PM you on the forum and post in your For Sale thread on the forum asking about their order status. You now have FOUR mediums of communication you have to manage all at the same time. Neglect one, customer is upset, post on the forum, etc. Then it snowballs from there.

Forums are nice for marketing, even paid marketing, however they are usually more trouble than they are worth and end up costing you more money than you make.

Do not backorder. Ever. If it's not in stock, ready to ship in 24 hours, it's not for sale. I don't care what it is or how much it costs to make. If you can't afford to carry inventory, you can't afford to be in business. It will ruin you like it did my company.

Custom products have no place on forums. The turn around time is too long for the average person to wait. If you do any "custom" stuff, you have to make it first, then accept payment. If you can't afford that or it's "too risky" for an order cancellation, then either don't go into business or don't sell custom stuff online.

For manufacturing something, get the bugs worked out first. Spend some time, not just a few weekends, making sure your methods are sound. Try out cell manufacturing versus line manufacturing. Your two goals in business are profit and efficiency. Being efficient will increase your profit. Get your material supplier lined up, and a second, third, fourth. Making things one at a time is inefficient, long lead time, and will cause CS issues down the road when you are swamped in orders. I did a group buy on ammo that needed to be loaded yet. Never loaded it on that press but went ahead with it anyway. That was a huge mistake and cost me my business. If it's not in stock ready to ship within 24 hours, it's not for sale. Period.

Make your product in batches according to previous sales plus a percentage. Wait until it sells out to make more. When you can juggle making and shipping together (ie you have employees besides yourself and family) at the same time, then have new material on order when you finish making and packing the last batch for sale. Pretty soon you will be making 1 for every 1 that was just sold, just like Walmart's model. When you buy something and it's scanned at the register, the computers in AR route the warehouse to ship a replacement product to that very store on the next truck that it will fit on. It does this well and is the best model at it. Walmart is profitable due to two things: efficiency and volume.

Do not handle customer service issues online. I got into this and am trying to stop doing this. The transaction between you and your customer are not for the world to see, although some customers think otherwise. Whomever calls 911 first will be treated as the victim. Same as in customer service. Nine out of ten times the customer will post on the forum before they attempt to contact the company for remedy. No matter how bad you want to put someone in their place, it's just a waste of time. No matter what you say, you are lying, you are wrong, you are evil.

Do not ever take payment before the product is ready to ship. If you want to be a rebel and take back orders, just take them on paper. Do not accept any money until they are ready to ship. Then contact the customer, get the payment, then ship right away. I had this problem. Took order, gave lead time, took payment, delays, etc then people got ticked, canceled. Money is tied up in materials with no reserve cash, now I'm a sitting duck and things spiral out of my control. What I do now is take payment via bank check or money order. That gives me a 2-3 day window to get the order together, packaged, labeled for shipping. When the payment arrives, ship the order. When the order is delivered to the customer (according to tracking number), THEN the payment is yours and you can deposit it.


If you are going to represent a business online, leave the personal **** out of it. Few customers care about your health, your family problems, etc. They want their product and they want it yesterday with no excuses.

Know your limit. Be honest with yourself about production and delivery times. Actually do it several times to get a feel for things. Always book maximum 80% of capacity. This leaves room for "life". When I gave lead times, I tripled my estimate. Should have it done in 1-2 days means you tell the customer one week or two if things don't go right. Under promise and over deliver. Tell them 2 weeks get it there in one. Then of course, since you're selling from stock on hand you won't have that problem.

Make it.
Sell it.
Ship it.
Cash it.

That's the order for online and gun forum businesses. I hope you can find some good in this post to help you on your venture. I learned a lot from my failure and hope you don't have to go through what I'm going through. Just when you think you hit rock bottom, things get worse.

[Lloyd Smale]

custom pistol smiths should read this. THere way of busisness is to take money then you wait they will usually say 6 months. At six months they havent even looked at it. Six months later still nothing. Six more months call them and they will tell you your next in line. Six more months go buy and call again and they give you some kind of family excuse and say it will be done in a month. Now youve got two years into it and maybe sometime this year they actually will build it. Dont bet the bank on it yet though. I never could figure this out. Why say 6 months when they know its going to be 2 years. Youd think theyd want to avoid all the phone calls and people that dont have patients. Freekshow got his fill of this and he legitimately tried to keep his word. Most bussiness dont even give a dammed if your ticked off or not.

[hoosierlogger]

very good advice. If I ever decide to venture into business on my own Ill heed your advice.

[mike in co]

[QUOTE=freakshow10mm;901446]Make it.
Sell it.
Ship it.
Cash it.

QUOTE]

have it in stock
advertise
sell it
cash it
ship it

i agree 100 percent on not advertising something that is not in stock.

my product is brass.

i limit internet sales to unique products. packing schipping labels all take time...too much time.

i quit internet sales of my main product due to time only...was selling plenty, but was eating a ton of time doing it.

all common stuff is sold locally wholesale and retail.

mike in co

[WILCO]

very good advice.

Ditto for me. Glad to see you're alive and well after blazing your own path.

[MT Gianni]

I would add to not undercut someones product as in claiming you know what it is. If a man makes his living selling it, and you think you can do a better job and cheaper go ahead. But don't claim to know his secrets of development and give them away.

[cajun shooter]

Well Freak show, What you have posted I have seen happen more than just a few times. The gun business is not unique to what you have posted either. It happens to be what you are familiar with but it happens with several types of business adventures. I don't quite know if you mean that you were reloading for 5 years and then started the business. If this is true then that is problem one. Any business school will tell you that going into a hobby business is risky at best. I don't think that 5 years in reloading is enough time to see and learn about the business. The post by Lloyd is another problem that fits almost every gun business today. Who would have known 5 years ago that we would be in a almost 2 year drought of all loading supplies. Anyone that did made a huge bank account for themselves. Now as far as promises go most people stretch the truth trying to keep the customer. One shotgun expert that sells lever action cowboy shotguns is famous for this. A lot of people speak ill of him without having ever met the man. He is a very nice person and knows his work but is a terrible business man. He will tell the first customer who calls that it will be 2-3 weeks. That is fine until you reach a certain number. You can't tell the 200Th customer that his gun will be ready in the same amount of time as he does. I myself would prefer the man to tell me that I'm buried in orders and it will be six months before your number comes up. In the end that customer will like you much better and tell others and that is what builds or tears down a business; word of mouth. It goes farther than any money spent on advertisement. Times for the past 4 years have been hard unless you are in a high CEO job that is immune to a depression so don't feel like it is you that did all the screwing up. The last thing is when you go into business don't expect all your friends and family to be your customers. Some people will go buy from someone else if they are $1.00 cheaper than you,that is how they are put together. I was paying a average of $5-$10 a trip more to help a friend start a fishing equipment store and keep it afloat. I knew he would go under as he could not buy at jobber price and therefore compete with the big boys. I ran a large gun store and we purchased most our stocking items at jobber price. The little just getting started guy can not fight the odds. Want an example; look at what has happened to all the mom and pop's of this country after the move in of a Wal-Mart. Look at the parking lots and figure out who the locals are buying from. The people who have lived there all their lives and have been in business for 25 years or the 2 week old Wal-Mart.

[Adam10mm]

I don't quite know if you mean that you were reloading for 5 years and then started the business. If this is true then that is problem one. Any business school will tell you that going into a hobby business is risky at best.
One of the other lessons I learned about business. Making a hobby into a business venture is very risky, but it seemed on the surface a fool proof plan. Simply sell the ammunition I shoot myself. Do what you know how to do well.

I have been reloading a total of 5 years, 3 of it as a licensed commercial manufacturer. I've been in business since October 2006.


I don't think that 5 years in reloading is enough time to see and learn about the business.
My problem was I can make damn good ammunition but I don't know how to run a business. Lots of "forum businesses" are like that. Guy with no business experience trying to make money. Recipe for failure.

Loading ammunition is very easy. It's the business aspect of it that is the hard part. Reloading experience won't give you business experience, only business experience will give you business experience. The Internet is no place to learn. That was another mistake.

What I should have done, and what I advise in my book, is to take care of the local market first for a few years. Build your loyal customer base in your city, then county, then region. Once you have a well established customer base of your state, then you can try to get an e-commerce website and do business online. Case in point: Missouri Bullet Company.

Right now I'm clearing out all the 9/40/45 ammo on my site and am taking products off except the .357 Mag heavy and the 10mm ammo. They will remain online but always out of stock (not taking orders). The popular 9/40/45 stuff that requires volume setups is left to my local customers and the less popular low volume stuff is OK for online sales. Limiting the sales online which makes shipping more efficient will bring more profit. The local gun shop buys all the .380 and .45 ammo I can get together so what's the point of listing it online if I can flip it locally? Sure I take a 20% hit pricing for wholesale, but it's consistent income. In May so far I've made almost $600 profit from the LGS alone (unfortunately all of which went right back out the door in refunds to my other customers to settle debts). Now if I didn't have the debts I do and that was all profit for the business, that $600/mo is a good deal plenty for supplemental income. Another month or two and I will settle all my business debts with my customers and then start moving forward. Start small instead of taking on the country without being able to handle the demand.

That's the point I'm trying to make in the "know your limits". My reloading setup is very modest. I have a single Dillon 1050, Dillon 550, and RC I use for the business. The 9mm and .40 get loaded on the 1050. Everything else on the 550 and the RC is for odd jobs. Now if you take the 1050 for example, the advertised rate is 1,000 rounds per hour. In reality without a bullet feeder, that's optimistic. Real world is 750-800/hr. But let's use 1,000 per hour. 40 hours a week is 2080 hours per year. That's 2.08 million rounds annually that can be loaded on the machine. The 550 does half that. Figure maximum production of 3 million rounds. Sounds good but in reality I doubt any commercial reloader makes 2 million rounds a year on their 1050.

What I did was use the fantasy advertised rate to compute my lead time (in addition to what my suppliers were telling me for their lead time). Three to four weeks turned into three to four months. Why? All the things I didn't think of happening happened. Life gets in the way of business. Right now I could be cranking out .380 ammo for the 1.5 case order for the LGS, but I have my 3yo son with me until 1pm so I can't load anything right now. Sometimes it's a week or two before I get the time to load. My actual production is perhaps 10,000 rounds per month. This month is a little more; I've done about 14,000 so far. [smilie=w:

Lesson there is operate your business within your capabilities. It's like the CAD designer that makes drawings that can't be manufactured with the machinery's capability. Happens all the time in machine shops. Looks nice in 3D but impossible to machine. My business lives off a 1050 and 550 being run maybe a total of 8-10 hours a week. That's about how much free time I have to spend on loading ammo. That's how I should gear my business plan. Not what I want to produce, but what I can actually produce. You don't produce to meet demand, you produce to meet your capability of production.

Those things you don't learn reloading for a number of years, you learn by being in business or being business educated.

[wiljen]

Don't you wish you'd known that before you started Adam? Experience = that which we gain too late to be beneficial. ;)

[Rocky Raab]

Great post, my friend. One word of advice: don't take orders for that book until it's in print, LOL!

Seriously, that's a very good book idea. "How To Fail Miserably In Your Own Business" ought to be a good seller. I recommend you do write it. From your post, you have the word skills to do so. If you need free (and almost worth it) tips, contact me off-channel.

[Adam10mm]

Don't you wish you'd known that before you started Adam? Experience = that which we gain too late to be beneficial. ;)
True words. Sometimes the hardest lessons we learn the most from. I learned handloading on a Lee hand press. I learned so much by using that than I could have on any other press. That alone gave me an appreciation and understanding into the steps of assembling ammunition that money simply can't buy.


Great post, my friend. One word of advice: don't take orders for that book until it's in print, LOL!
For sure! ;-)


Seriously, that's a very good book idea. "How To Fail Miserably In Your Own Business" ought to be a good seller. I recommend you do write it. From your post, you have the word skills to do so.
Working title is "Rock Bottom Keeps Getting Deeper". Still have to figure that one out. I hate picking names and titles. So many books are "Oh look I'm stinkin' rich" but this is a different side of business that doesn't get told too often. The real world nitty gritty. My grandfather (RIP) told me failure isn't the end of things but the beginning of success. Failure is simply an opportunity for improvement. Failure is to be acknowledged, but not accepted.


If you need free (and almost worth it) tips, contact me off-channel.
I will do that for sure. I'm heading out of town for the weekend after work tonight with my wife. Trying to work on our marriage and save it so we are going away to a cabin for the weekend to forget about the world and focus on us. I'll hit you up with contact next week. Thanks for the offer.

[Springfield]

That works fine for something like ammo which is somewhat generic but some of those rules fly out the window when making custom ordered items like leatherwork, like I do. I'm not about to make a custom made holster without at least 50% down, 'cause if the order gets cancelled while I am in the middle of making it I wll never be able to sell it to anyone else. But I wholeheartedly agree about over estimating your lead time. I have 2 small kids, and so much "stuff" comes up to mess up your at-home business that you wouldn't believe. Some people think "well, just spend some overtime hours on the business and catch up". Except the business itself IS the overtime hours, your regualr day is taken up with kids, wife, and just life in general, so there is no extra time. I have been up 'til one in the morning trying to get caught up more than once, but you have to sleep sometime. I think the reason some guys under estimate the time is they are afraid to lose customers if they give a totally accurate lead time. But I have found ticking off customers after the order is WAY worse than ticking them off before. I have never seen anyone post that "don't do businees with so and so 'cause his lead time is too long", they will just go elsewhere, but many will post if you take forever after you take their order and money. Been there, done that, trying to do better. Like you, I am a better craftsman then business man, but I have learned quite a bit in the last 6 years.

[44fanatic]

Adam,
Great post. Like a bone that gets broken, may your business and relationship w/ your wife come out stronger in the end. Sometimes lessons learned the hard way are the best learned.

To many folks would have thrown in the towel.

[Adam10mm]

My critics are calling for me to be done with it and close the business completely. I simply cannot accept failure as an end. It's just not in me. Most businesses that are successful have failed a few times before they got it right. Even one of my most outspoken critics has stated to me his current venture is his 5th business attempt. His previous 4 failed miserably. He continues to persevere yet opine that I give up, something my family just simply doesn't do. You can knock me down but I'll keep getting right back up.

[Rocky Raab]

Adam, here's a pithy message for you:

When you're going through hell -- KEEP GOING!

[pmeisel]

Appreciation for your well written and wise thoughts. Good luck in ALL your endeavors.

[thenaaks]

a old hillbilly friend of mine once said, "an education costs money." wiser words have never been spoken. everything important i've learned has come at some cost...some more than others.

i've got a flooring business and have to keep telling myself to turn down jobs that i just don't have time for. people are more often willing to wait for good work than you would believe.

good luck with your smaller scale venture...may it grow into a lucrative enterprise.

[Edubya]

I've gotten a lot of insight from this post. I've been operating a small business for 14 years now and had very little business experience prior to starting this retail business. It is totally different but I see some of my mistakes differently now. One of the biggest that I see was to make a special order for someone that they never came back, apparently fond it on the Internet at a cheaper price, and I ended up either eating the total cost or sold it at wholesale price just to get rid of it. This is why I so adamently support local businesses now. The first three years I did not turn a profit. Then it turned around. I told my wife, "This will be our last year if we don't show some profit." I had just accepted that it was the last year. I stopped kissing up to my customers and bowing to their whims. It seemed like I was trying to offend the customers and to cut off their dependency on my providing for them. I felt uncomfortable but all of a sudden they started showing a little respect for my goods and services. One of the regulars asked me today if I'd get a certain product in for him; I replied, "If your willing to put down the cost of the product and the shipping, I'll order it but I'll charge you an extra 20% when it comes in." He agreed, and I ordered it after collecting. I could never have been that forthright inthe first three years and almost went under.

I really hate to see anybody's business take a hit like you have and hope that you recover and can report at a not too distant future that you are up and swinging. It will be the best thing that ever happened to you if you can.
Best of luck,

EW

[Rockydog]

Freakshow, There's a book out the called "Failing Forward" by John Maxwell. He talks about lessons learned from one's own failures and the failures of others. Good read but I think you've got the basics from it already. BTW, Been there, done that, got the T-shirt. You get over it eventually but once in a while, even 25 years later, something triggers a memory and you feel the sting. Rockydog

[ktw]

Start small instead of taking on the country without being able to handle the demand.

As a word of encouragement, I have a neighbor who doesn't handload ask me recently if I had ever heard of you or your ammunition company. He had picked up some 40 (or 45, I forget which) from Northwoods. He was happy with the product and the price. He plans to buy more.

-ktw

[nicholst55]

Freak: Your post is very timely. In about 2006 I was very seriously considering getting into commercial ammo manufacturing. I had drawn up a business plan and was researching government financing. For various reasons, I elected not to pursue the plan at that time.

If I had gone through with it, I would have probably been up and running at full bore right about the time that metal prices skyrocketed and Obama got elected. I would doubtless have been severely impacted by the cost of components and the inability to obtain them. As it is, I now have a secure civil service job and am nearly debt-free.

I've been reflecting on 'what if' just recently - what if I had borrowed a large sum of money to get into the business, and then the bottom had fallen out? What would I be doing now? You can't imagine how happy I am that I decided not to start that business!

[Trapshooter]

Thirty-some-odd years ago, I learned a couple other secrets to success in a small business. First was to work until you were down to working half days, then you could work which ever 12 hours you liked :). This wasn't a side business, it was the sole source of income. A business is a very jealous mistress. Most wives don't take well to mistresses.

Trapshooter

[Adam10mm]

As a word of encouragement, I have a neighbor who doesn't handload ask me recently if I had ever heard of you or your ammunition company. He had picked up some 40 (or 45, I forget which) from Northwoods. He was happy with the product and the price. He plans to buy more.

-ktw
Tell him I appreciate it and am very glad he enjoys my ammunition. Northwoods has been extremely supportive of me and my venture; very understanding to life, etc. I'm going to look into venturing over to Indian Country Sports and see if I can drum up business there too. Rick told me I have a little fan club at his place. Says he has customers who stopped buying other brands of ammo and they will wait as long as it takes for my ammo to show up so they can buy it. Quite flattering.

Thank you for sharing that with me.


A business is a very jealous mistress. Most wives don't take well to mistresses.

Trapshooter
Quoted for truth. One of the issues with the business is I spent more and more time with it and less and less time with my wife. By going small market again that allows me to operate within my realistic capacity as well as give my wife the time she needs with me. The one person that stood by me the whole time when no one else would, was pushed away. And I was so involved in my business I didn't see it happen.

On that note, I've got a 2hr drive to the cabin where we are meeting up for some time together this weekend. Later guys.

[Lead Fred]

Several of the forum sellers here do not adhere to your advice.
They sell a superior product, that you have to pay for in advance, and wait for.
and the wait was well worth it for Me

I guess they are the exception

[Tazman1602]

Really, really good advice Adam. I've been in the gun business for a number of years off and on, now am on again.

"Back in the day" when you could buy 98 Mauser and 96 Mauser actions for next to nothing I used to buy them in bulk, chop 'em up and rebarrel, scope, and sporterize for shooters. Never had a complaint --- BUT, I learned REAL quick if I took an order for a rifle and promised that rifle in two weeks it had darn well better be DONE in two weeks, not just started on.

Eventually I took to building the rifles first, then selling them which eliminated the issues with customer service. The one thing I personally can't stand is to be told "we'll have it back to you in a month" and then have it take 8 or 9 months with a slew of excuses -- and these excuses were not from the little guys. I had Shaw one time take a YEAR to get me back a barreled action and just couldn't believe it.

Now days, like you say, if it isn't in my hand then it is NOT for sale.

One other point, the "is this item 100% perfect?" question. I just sold a rifle on Gunbroker to a gentleman. Within two hours of listing it I had a dozen emails asking the above question. I had listed the rifle as new in box -- which it WAS, but it had the normal handling marks on it -- nothing big, you had to take a magnifying glass to find the defects, but they were there. I ended up editing the post explaining that it definately was NOT 100% perfect due to handling but if someone wanted one in unopened condition I would be happy to order it for them at 100% FULL RETAIL.

I got burned on shipping so bad taking returns back in the day when ebay was young I simply post pictures saying what you see is what you get. I had a guy want a return of money on an Oregon Myrtle rifle stock I sold him because he spotted what he called a "crack" which was actually a check on the end of the stock where the buttpad would go.

These days I take it nice and easy. The rifle shop gives me good income but I have NO illusions that I will ever make a fortune at it nor do I really wish to. All I want to do is sell a quality product at a reasonable price and make a tiny bit of profit from it. Word gets around and before you know it you've got a good little business going.

The only thing I take money in advance for is if people want me to order them a gun -- 50% down, NON refundable, IN ADVANCE or I know when they change their minds, when their wive's start complaining of them spending money on another gun, take your pick of excuses, I am going to be STUCK with that gun on my shelf for a long, long time before it sells and chances are I'm going to have to sell it for less than what I paid for it just to move it.

All of this is made clear, in writing, before I ever shuck out any of my funds to make a purchase.

Sorry you've had the troubles you've had but it seems you have learned some great lessons and are putting them to good use. My single advantage with the rifle shop is that my wife is totally engaged in the business with me, is a shooter, and loves doing the gun shows with me.

..............keep in mind one thing --- "failure"............uh-huh. The ONLY people who don't fail at things? Those are the people that don't do a damn thing.

Keep reloading, keep it in perspective, follow what you've outlined here and I'm willing to bet you'll do just fine.............eventually!

Art

[Echo]

Very informative, Freak. A good post, and thread, and puts bugs in the ears of folks thinking about doing what you did.

I was a Management consultant until I retired several years ago. This thread is about Business. Management is what takes place inside the front door. Business is what takes place outside the front door. Two different things. Lots of books written on both subjects. I look forward to ordering a copy of your book when it comes out.

[exile]

Successful people all have one thing in common, failure! The only people who don't fail are the ones who don't try. I have been fired from one job in my life and it turned into the most successful experience I have ever had. (Look at Harry Truman, for example.)

Your post is a good reminder for us consumers to be patient with suppliers. Having spent my life working with people, it is my opinion that many times the product provided has little to do with why people complain. People complain to strangers because no one in their private life will listen to them (wife, friends, etc.,.). They look at is as free stress relief.

The internet is not the unqualified good that everyone claims it to be, it can be a pain in the rear as well.

I have only been married for 11 years, but it is my opinion that nothing is more important than a marriage. We will be praying for you.

exile

[PatMarlin]

Best of wishes to you in the future freakshow10mm. You took on a big venture and I have read on other forums where you are standing by your principals and making good on your mistakes to the forum customers you have done business with which in a world today where most would walk away- that is very commendable.

I've been self employed all of my life. There are exceptions to every rule in business, and certainly one size does not fit all. Thankfully we still live in a country that allows us the freedom to pursue our dreams.

My situation was a little different from most as I never intended to manufacture. Before I started selling my designs here CB, I had made arrangements to have it manufactured, and once I started selling, they left me hanging with members money from orders, and no product.

I wrote the note below on one of my threads here at CB and thought it would be appropriate to include it here- for better or worse:


....:Fire:

My goal has been to manufacture a quality product first, then perfect production to have it available where the wait time is minimal. I'm very near to achieving the second part of that goal with all of my products.

Still- a small Mom and Pop business will have it's delays from time to time. If I get sic or injured, or have a family emergency, or the many things all of us live with, the machines out in the shop will stop for a time. But the reason I market my products here at CB is the support of family- our family of Cast Boolit members that understand this.

If I was selling something you could order from your favorite box outlet, I wouldn't be doing it. What I offer is unique, and EVERYONE has been extremely happy and even excited with their purchases and make it a point to let me know. This is what keeps me going, and makes doing the work and taking on the challenge enjoyable.

I'm not trying to be a shooting box outlet. If you choose to buy from me you are getting my personal custom unique products, and I ask those who want a box outlet buying experience to go there. I can't compete with that and never will, and I will not let impatient customers stress the life of myself and my family.

I share my shooting experiences and life occurrences with my customers. Some folks consider that poor excuses, but If I can't do that and enjoy life while doing this for a living, I will move on to something that I enjoy.

I started from scratch last year and in a short time have progressed to a CNC machine production operation (that's completely paid for with no debt). The exciting thing for me is I have designs to come that may seriously surprise some folks, so organizing and perfecting what I do now will pave the way for future cool stuff.

Happy shooting-

Pat ...:drinks:



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