Primers Falling Out When Fired

[Johnw...ski]

This doesn't really affect me but I have a friend who started using Wolf primers because of the recent primer shortage. He used to shoot Winchester with good results now the Wolf primers fall out when shot, maybe 1 in every 15 shots. The loads are accurate and function well except sometimes the primer falls into the trigger group and that stops everything.

Anyone else have this problem with Wolf primers?

Thanks,

John

[KCSO]

What brass?? Recent W/W brass cases I have found about 1-25 is defective with loose primer pockets in unfired brass. I sent samples to W/W and got a nice note telling me they can't confirm the problem because all 3 packages failed to arrive!

[Changeling]

What brass?? Recent W/W brass cases I have found about 1-25 is defective with loose primer pockets in unfired brass. I sent samples to W/W and got a nice note telling me they can't confirm the problem because all 3 packages failed to arrive!

Is there some reason that surprised you, LOL.

[mike in co]

i sort have to laugh at this one.

the one big problem we have heard is mis-fires traced to primers not seated. not seated because they "felt" right. felt was actually not seated beacuse the primers seem to seat harder in some applications.
now someone claims wolf are falling out.......

primers fall out because the brass is tired...and has a large primer pocket.

mike in co

[Johnw...ski]

i sort have to laugh at this one.

the one big problem we have heard is mis-fires traced to primers not seated. not seated because they "felt" right. felt was actually not seated beacuse the primers seem to seat harder in some applications.
now someone claims wolf are falling out.......

primers fall out because the brass is tired...and has a large primer pocket.

mike in co

You could be right, I just thought it was funny that the hundred he loaded with his last Winchester primers worked fine. Then when he reloaded some with the new primers from the same lot of brass but not the same cartridges they started falling out. Granted, not all of them but enough to raise questions.

I forgot to mention this was in an AR15 not that it should matter.

John

[shooterg]

If anything, the Wolf primers I've used seem to be OVERsize and harder to seat - which is a good thing with some many times fired brass. Mileage seems to vary on the Wolf's, but I'm into the 8th box of 1000 with zero misfires.

[Johnw...ski]

If anything, the Wolf primers I've used seem to be OVERsize and harder to seat - which is a good thing with some many times fired brass. Mileage seems to vary on the Wolf's, but I'm into the 8th box of 1000 with zero misfires.

He did mention that they seemed harder to seat. Good to hear about the zero misfires, though.

Maybe its not the primers fault, just thought I would fly it through here since there is so much experience.

John

[jlchucker]

i sort have to laugh at this one.

the one big problem we have heard is mis-fires traced to primers not seated. not seated because they "felt" right. felt was actually not seated beacuse the primers seem to seat harder in some applications.
now someone claims wolf are falling out.......

primers fall out because the brass is tired...and has a large primer pocket.

mike in co

Yup. Cases are manufactured with the primer pockets being formed by a tool called a "bunter", which does nothing more than hammers the case causing the head to be formed, the headstamp to be put on, and the primer cavity to be made. Wham! Later, rims are turned, some even becoming rimless, and the groove is cut. Those bunters break the primer forming tips off far more than they wear out, and if they did wear out the pocket would be smaller--not larger. Sounds like tired brass to me, too.

[EOD3]

What brass?? Recent W/W brass cases I have found about 1-25 is defective with loose primer pockets in unfired brass. I sent samples to W/W and got a nice note telling me they can't confirm the problem because all 3 packages failed to arrive!

Hard work playing to a crowd that's just not paying attention. :| Subtle humor never works on "mature" boards... [smilie=p:

[thenaaks]

must be real subtle (still not getting it)

[Houndog]

There are a few more reasons primers could be falling out of the pockets that need addressed ASAP! If the primer pockets are loose on ONCE FIRED brass, you need to check your load for a SERIOUS overload! That could be from the wrong powder or bullet in an absolute max load. Look for ejector marks on the head of the case! In most rifles it will show up as a convex round circle imprint on the face of the brass, and is usually, but not always accompinyed by a blown primer. Pay particular attention to the firing pin indention in the primer! A primer with the indention pierced or extruded into the firing pin hole in the bolt is almost always a sign of an overload! The next thing is defective brass, as in the case head being too soft. Again, look for ejector marks on the head of the case and look for head expansion of the case rim and web. Check the diameter of the web and the rim with a GOOD micrometer and compare these readings with an unfired case out of the same lot preferably. At least mike several cases from the same lot and compare the readings. A soft case will have a stretched case web and rim every time. In most cases of soft brass the primer firing pin indention will look normal IF we are not also dealing with an overload.

[mike in co]

try this for subtle...it aint the primers


and i have no idea about the othe posters issue with win brass.

i still shooting the lot of win brass that john feamster used to write BLACK MAGIC.

[mike in co]

Yup. Cases are manufactured with the primer pockets being formed by a tool called a "bunter", which does nothing more than hammers the case causing the head to be formed, the headstamp to be put on, and the primer cavity to be made. Wham! Later, rims are turned, some even becoming rimless, and the groove is cut. Those bunters break the primer forming tips off far more than they wear out, and if they did wear out the pocket would be smaller--not larger. Sounds like tired brass to me, too.

i thought the BUNTER was only for headstamp ?
yes no ??? i'll listen

lake city brass made and stamped when needed...not necessarily when made.


ears open.

mike in co

[Johnw...ski]

Thanks guys, I wasn't trying to stir anything up, just looking to see if there were any issues at all with Wolf primers. It appears they are as good as any.

Thanks,

John

[GabbyM]

It's fairly common among us paupers to use Wolf primers on what is worn out brass with enlarged primer pockets since the Wolf brand will generally stay in after US brands get loos. I've even read that trick in a publication.

I'm one of those compulsive types who worry to much over little details. Blowing primers out would set me off on a quest. Close inspection of the cases with lost primers would definitely be in order.

Once a batch / lot of cases start to fail they don't all go at once. Then their 's that issue with auto load rifles where your brass is in the grass along with whatever else was left behind. Also many shoot mixed head-stamp used brass without sorting it. There's a lot which could be going on with this. A micrometer will tell you real quick what diameter the primers are. Then your friend stated they were seating harder. It don't add up.

Blaming the primers then abandoning any search for the cause is probably faulty science.

[Harter66]

I would jump on the brass/pressure wagon ,but, I had a thing with a 22-250 a few years ago . I bought 40 rounds of Win 40 gn hps you know the value box. Now the kids were shooting so about a round every 10 sec or so. At the 9th the ejected round dropped its primer, the 8th round after a closer look was loose ,5,6,7 all had leak stains around the primers. I spent an hour just measuring cases. We went back out the next weekend and had identical results , so we sent the ammo to Win with lots of details and "I dunno its all to spec " . We picked up some fresh brass and started with a light 55gn load over 3031. Watching closely and repeating again rounds 6&7 were leaking. We tried again w Rem brass to again the same end. My best guess is that the Mark X mauser action and the Federal varmant bbl were just holding too much heat on the 90* days.

[Hip's Ax]

I forgot to mention this was in an AR15 not that it should matter.



I'm shooting Winchester 223 brass with Wolf small rifle magnum primers in my AR-15 NM service rifle. I was worried when the brass was new that the primers seemed to be going in too easy. I did some measuring of the primers I have and Wolf seemed large-ish as reported. I loaded all the brass and am still firing them for the first time but no problems. Some primers went in really easy and some were a bit tough so you know the primer pockets are all over the place dimension wise.

BIG question, are you using Wolf small rifle or small rifle magnum??

[NSP64]

Is it new, once fired or many fired? If new-could be bad brass, Once fired-colud be load, many fired- your friend may have tried to anneal and got the heads too hot, or brass is worn out.

I havent had any fall out, but have had them flow back into the firing pin hole and lock up a revolver. When I got it open that one might have been loose but I threw the case out and didn't attempt a reload of it.

[sagacious]

...
I forgot to mention this was in an AR15 not that it should matter.

John
It could matter, and help explain why this happened.

If it was a 223Rem case, many of the once fired and "processed" have had the primer pockets reamed with a crimp/stake removing tool. Often the reaming is done a little too zealously, and the primer pocket is enlarged.

I have seen this countless times, and it's a real problem around here. One has to check primer pockets carefully on any "once-fired" military caliber brass. That the Win primers stuck, and a Wolff fell out could be nothing more than coincidence. Good luck.

[milsurp mike]

I have been curious about Wolf primers myself.Havent bought any but thought about trying them because they are cheaper than what I am using.I was afraid of them because I am a firm believer in you get what you pay for.I may just try some and try to disspell this myth of you get what you pay for.In this case maybe it will be untrue.Mike

[Cherokee]

Have use many 1000's of Wolf primers in new and wellll used cases, rifle and pistol, no problems.

[shootinxd]

I have had the same concern with wolf primers in my AR.Never had a Winchester come out-ever.

[bearcove]

It doesn't seem that the primer would be the problem. Autos tend to have looser chambers, If you have a batch of soft brass a normal full power load will cause the brass to stretch some. That could cause the problem. I haven't had that problem myself, but the primer is just the symptom in my opinion. For what its worth. (bout 2 cents probably)

[jose wales 1957]

load over powered?