Of 30-40's, 311284's and Glenn Fryxell

[Trailblazer]

I was all set to get a copy of the Lyman 311284 for my 1895 Winchester in 30US. My main purpose was to have an accurate heavyweight that I could push to 2000 FPS for High Power Rifle Silhouette. Then I read Glenn Fryxell's article on the 30-40. He said that he didn't get good accuracy from the 311284 at higher velocities. My 1895 shoots the RCBS 30-180-FN into about an inch at 100 yards at 1600 FPS or so. I haven't tried pushing it yet. Need to cast some more up.

Has anybody managed to get accuracy down around an inch at 2000 FPS or so with the 311284 in a 30-40 or any other 30 caliber with a 10" twist barrel? I realize rifles and molds all vary but Glenn knows what he is doing so it makes me wonder.

[Marlin Junky]

Has anybody managed to get accuracy down around an inch at 2000 FPS or so with a 30-40 or any other 30 caliber with a 10" twist barrel?

Yep,

10" twist 336A chambered in 30-30 using RCBS 30-180-FN weighing 200 grains checked (WW metal alloyed with a little Pb) does 2000+ fps with 1.5 MOA accuracy (using good iron sights). H380 and 414 are the powders of choice. Use the slowest powder that will give you a good burn (check your chronograph stats). What will probably be your limiting factor is your rifling. Faster twists need taller rifling or more grooves, or a combination of the two. My 336A has only 4 grooves but the rifling is .005" tall near the chamber and only a couple "tenths" less at the muzzle.

MJ

[Marlin Junky]

I just read Glenn's article on the 30-40 and he never mentions using an alloy other than air cooled wheel weight metal (he references BHN 12 a few times) nor does he mention internal barrel config's. His conclusion:

"...311284 tends to shoot well in .30 caliber rifles with a 1 in 10" twist rate up to around 1800 fps, then accuracy starts to drop off above that. Faster loads were acceptable, but clearly not as accurate as the 1800 fps loads. Rob Applegate was the first to point this tendency out to me, and my experiences with this bullet have fallen in line with his."

is nothing more than conjecture.

Granted Glen needs to be brief at times in order to contain his articles within some predetermined length; however, all too often brevity leads to misleading. I wish Glen would chime in to state whether he has tried his 30-40 experiments again by substituting 450F heat treated 311284's for his air cooled WW 311284's (all else the same).

MJ

P.S. And, if he doesn't get better accuracy with the stronger, HT'd (not higher Sb!) alloy, I'd want to know how his barrel is configured.

[Bass Ackward]

Depends on how you define accuracy.

I used WDWW for the 311284 and LBT Blue in an 06 with 56 grains of H-870 sitting atop 5 grains of 2400 as a kicker charge (resulted in a compressed load) sized .310 for 2100 fps that would hold 1 1/2" and I didn't spend a lot of time with it. I had the powder on hand so I used it up.

To produce that velocity, Quickload puts that right at 28k.

So .... it's going to depend on the condition of your rifle and how long the pipe is whether you get there or not with that weight.

[Marlin Junky]

Depends on how you define accuracy.

John,

He's talking about 2-3 MOA (3MOA w/ his sloppy fitting 311284HP). Here's the link:

http://www.lasc.us/FryxellCB30-40Krag.htm

MJ

[jlchucker]

Trailblazer, do you have a 311284 mold yet? I have a bunch of these boolets cast but not sized (WW cast 10-1 with pure lead). I no longer have a rifle they'll work with, and if I get one I can always cast more. I could spare some if you like. send me a PM.

[Shiloh]

What is the advertised diameter for the 311284. I would need a minimum of diameter of .3115
and nose of .3015.

Shiloh

[451whitworth]

my Browning 1895 30-40 with a 200gr. LBT LFN with blue soft lube and either RL-7 or IMR3031 can shoot 2" or under @100 yards if i do my part. velocity is 2150 fps average.

[Glen]

Marlin Junky --

No I have not done anything in the .30-40 Krag with heat trated projectiles. You're right, I could probably push things a little harder with a much harder bullet. Generally speaking, I cast for hunting loads and I like my hunting bullets to expand, so I generally don't have a lot of interest in making bullets with a BHN of ~30. If I were shooting this carbine in competition, that would be a whole 'nother story, but I'm not.

That being said, I don't know anyone who has done more with the 311284 than Rob Applegate. The 311284 can be a very accurate bullet, and Rob has worked up some very accurate loads for a variety of .30 caliber rifles with it. But he tells me that every time he got above ~1800 fps, his groups start to open up, sometimes substantially. My experiences with the 311284 (cast to BHN of ~12) in the .30-40 Krag and .30-06 fall in line with Robs. I have gotten some very nice groups at 1600 fps, but as velocities approach 2000 fps my groups have become much larger. It might be an alloy effect, but I don't think so because I can get the RCBS 30-180-FP and the Cramer HP described in the article to shoot very well indeed at 2000+ fps with the same alloy.

[Trailblazer]

My question should have read: Has anybody managed to get accuracy down around MOA at 2000 FPS or so with the 311284 in a 30-40 or any other 30 caliber with a 10" twist barrel?

I was given a dozen commercial cast 311284 bullets sized at .310". They did not shoot well at all. I don't know how hard they were. Probably hard. I probably should have removed the lube and relubed them too. Those are the only 311284's I have fired.

If the 311284 doesn't deliver I need to look at some other 200+ grain molds. Any suggestions for a long throated 30-40?

The rifle has a 28" barrel. The bore is a little rough but not excessively so. The bore is tight despite the light pitting. It's a good shooter with round nose jacketed and the RCBS 180FN. It doesn't care for spitzers.
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/Resized_1895.jpg

[runfiverun]

look at the loverign designs.
in my 95 i started with the rcbs 165 silhouette as that was my only 30 cal mold for quite a while.
the 28.5 grs of 4895 and a filler worked a bit better than jacketed loads so i just left it there.
i do have an nei 165 gr loverign design that my savage bolt gun [30-30] really likes, but in the win levers it has to be seat pretty deeply to function, but i haven't tried it in the 95 yet.
the nose has to fit the bore as much as the body fits the grooves on a bore riding rifle design, and the long throat is not gonna work well with the bore riders.
unless you are able to get excellent alignment to the bbl.
and even then you are fighting a losing battle, as there are far more transition issues to deal with with all that room there.

[JeffinNZ]

I shoot a similar weight bullet in my SMLE .303 over 41gr H4350 for 2000fps on the button and get 2 MOA. I heat treat the WW.

[Buckshot]

John,

He's talking about 2-3 MOA (3MOA w/ his sloppy fitting 311284HP). Here's the link:

http://www.lasc.us/FryxellCB30-40Krag.htm

MJ

(3MOA w/ his sloppy fitting 311284HP). I wonder if this might have had something to do with it? By sloppy I am going to assume he means the nose to land fit? If so I can for sure bear witness to the extreme importance of a proper nose to land fit and what the difference in accuracy can be between one that does, and one that doesn't.

...............Buckshot

[madsenshooter]

Yes, both the HP and regular 311284 Glen mentions would be a sloppy fit in a Krag bore. The majority of original Krag barrels have a .301 bore. Happily the NOE version of the 311284 drops them with a .302 nose. Still, I have to admit I haven't worked with it enough to see if there is a velocity related drop in accuracy above 1800fps. In my case, I've never gone that low! I started with a load that gave me 2000fps and produced 1-1.5 moa once I switched to Gator checks so as to stop shaving of the gas check seat. I certainly wouldn't pass on the 311284, as produced by NOE, based solely on Glen's article. As we all know, each rifle is an entity unto itself. I would however pass on a recently produced Lyman version as I have heard from many other casters that say the nose is coming out at .299 or less.

[Marlin Junky]

Marlin Junky --

No I have not done anything in the .30-40 Krag with heat trated projectiles. You're right, I could probably push things a little harder with a much harder bullet. Generally speaking, I cast for hunting loads and I like my hunting bullets to expand, so I generally don't have a lot of interest in making bullets with a BHN of ~30. If I were shooting this carbine in competition, that would be a whole 'nother story, but I'm not.

Well, there's a lot of ground you can cover between ACWW metal at BHN 12 and whatever alloy you might be thinking about at BHN 30. Please allow me to advocate an alloy of WW metal alloyed with approx. 50% Pb and HT'd to about BHN 16. This alloy would make a good hunting boolit which maintains accuracy beyond the velocity limits of ACWW metal.


That being said, I don't know anyone who has done more with the 311284 than Rob Applegate. The 311284 can be a very accurate bullet, and Rob has worked up some very accurate loads for a variety of .30 caliber rifles with it. But he tells me that every time he got above ~1800 fps, his groups start to open up, sometimes substantially.

How about getting Rob to join us and explain the characteristics of 311284 that make it fall short in the accuracy department when compare to e.g. Cramer 41B. Is there any chance the influence may be mold quality rather than cherry design? Perhaps his mold(s) are out of round or not particularly uniform? We are talking about pretty big boolits cast in those little bitty Lyman blocks. I enjoy hearing about others' experiences but passing judgement on a design without a thorough evaluation lacks credence.


My experiences with the 311284 (cast to BHN of ~12) in the .30-40 Krag and .30-06 fall in line with Robs. I have gotten some very nice groups at 1600 fps, but as velocities approach 2000 fps my groups have become much larger. It might be an alloy effect, but I don't think so because I can get the RCBS 30-180-FP and the Cramer HP described in the article to shoot very well indeed at 2000+ fps with the same alloy.

If you were just comparing 30-180-FN (it's FN, not FP) to 311284 I probably would have said the former has more % bearing surface than the latter; however, as I look at and read your description of Cramer 41B, it appears 311284 has more bearing surface than 41B. I would suggest the nose portion of the Cramer mold might be more round than that of 311284. I'm kinda leaning toward mold quality as an issue here rather than cherry design... there's got to be more to this story than 311284's funny ogive. :-D

MJ

[Bret4207]

Frank Marshall (RIP Uncle Frank) did quite a lot of work with the 284 in the '06 with 10" twist Springfields and Win 70's. I don't know what speeds he was shooting at as most of his work was in the pre-chrony days, but his collected works are available on CD from the CBA for $10.00. Might be worth a look. Plus, he was a great writer.

[Bass Ackward]

I was given a dozen commercial cast 311284 bullets sized at .310". They did not shoot well at all. I don't know how hard they were. Probably hard. I probably should have removed the lube and relubed them too. Those are the only 311284's I have fired.



I'm going to guess that you are going to need more than .310 in that piece. Have you sluged the throat to see what you really need.

[Throwback]

Depending on the rifle I typically use a 14 BHN alloy at 1,800 to 2,000 fps. I have never gotten MOA accuracy at 2,000 fps in any .30, including the Krag but then too I normally shoot open sights. I am quite happy to hunt with 2-3 MOA loads. I did struggle with the 284 in shot-out pre '64 '06 and a couple Krags with similar bores. I think the pits will frustrate your efforts with the 284 and probably with other heavyweights as well. Shorter pills are more forgiving. If the bore-riding portion of the long 284 doesn't fit perfectly it will bend at higher velocities. Harder alloy will only abate the issue slightly.

[Char-Gar]

I have five rifles in 30-40. Three of them are Krags and two are of the 1895 Levergun pattern and have had success in them all with 311284. I have a couple of observations to make on your question.

1. None of the rifles I own, will deliver true 1 MOA groups (1 " at 100 yards), with any bullet or any load. That is just beyond the mechanical ability of the rifles. Now if you are talking 1" at 50 yards all of them will do that and that would be 2 MOA.

2. The key is bullet fit to the barrel throats, lands and grooves. There is no one size fits all. My rifles run different sizes and require different sized bullets.

Krag 1 - .301 X .3095
Krag 2 - .301 X .311
Krag 3 - .301 X .308
Winchester - .302 X .311
Browning - .300 X .308

3. The trick to running any cast bullet to the 2K fps is bullets of the proper temper, proper size, good lube and slower burning powders. I have found 311284 cast of Lyman No. 2 alloy over 50/WC872 to give me velocities of 1,950 to 2,050 depending on the individual rifles. Most have 22 inch barrels, but the leverguns have 24 inch barrels. WC872 is a very slow surplus machine gun powder and I do know if it is available any more or not. I bought 32 pounds a few years back and still have about 25.

I have ran the bullet to 2,000 fps with medium burning powders like 3031 and 4895, but the results with WC872 have been better so I quit playing with the other powders for this purpose.

4. Unless I am going hunting, I see no reason to run bullets at 2,000 fps. A proper fitting 311284 trucking along at 1.5 to 1.7 fps is a fine general load and 16 to 18 grains of 2400 will fine the sweet spot.

There are of course many other 30 caliber cast bullet that give good results in the 30-40 round.

P.S. I have a number of other 30 caliber rifles and the only one that will deliver true 1 MOA groups with cast bullets is a Remington 700 VS in .308. The load there is 165 RCBS Sil over 49/WC872. I can get consistent .75 to .95 inch ten shot groups (100 yards) with that bullet in that rifle. None of my other 30 cal rifles will do better than a consistent 1.5 (1.5 MOA). I have a rack grade 03A3 that will do that any day that I can do my part.

[Trailblazer]

Thank you gentleman for your answers.

Chargar, My 1895 will indeed shoot 1 MOA. It did it with 180 Remington RN bullets and the RCBS 180 FN. See below. These groups were shot at 100 yards.
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/RCBS_Sierra_180_100_yds.jpg
The upper group is with the 180 Sierra spitzer. It doesn't care for spitzers. I did get one five shot group of 2-1/4" with the Hornady 150 BT so I may get there yet with spitzers. The lower group is five shots with the RCBS bullet which admittedly isn't quite MOA. It measures 1.2". I shot the group on a cool morning and the top bullet that opened the group was the last shot. The mirage from the heat rising off the barrel washed out the bottom of the bull and that shot went high. A larger bull might have helped me there. That is the only five shot group I have but it went under an inch for three shots the couple other times I checked it. I find that the tang sight with the 28" barrel rivals a scope for shooting at paper. If you don't have good sights you don't know what the rifle is capable of.

This rifle did not shoot like this when I got it. It shot 3" to 4" groups at 50 yards. I pulled the barrel and set it up in the lathe to have as close to zero runout as I could get and counterbored the muzzle. It made a difference!

The reason I want a 200+ grain bullet at 2000 FPS is because I want to use it for silhouette. The load needs to reliably knock a ram down at 500 meters. I have a lot of H4831 and I would like to use it if I can get it to shoot. I am well aware of the need to fit the bullet to the rifle. I have not slugged the throat. My RCBS 180's run .310" to .311" and .300" to .301" on the nose. They are not round. I size them in a .311" die.

I can use a bullet with a longer body than the RCBS design. It seats well above the base of the neck. I have plenty of room for a longer nose too since I seat the RCBS to 2.93" and the magazine will take rounds almost 3.1" in length. Maybe I will have MM make a custom mold since the 311284 looks problematic for what I want. Bass is the only one who has got groups close to what I want.

[Thumbcocker]

I have not used 311284 but have gotten 2000 fps with acww in .30-40 Ruger No3's and a .30-06 No.1. AA8700 with no duplex or magnum primers. Lots of unburned kernals but consistent accuracy and no leading.

[Char-Gar]

Trailbazer.. I have fired many targets like that. But REPEATABLE ten shot groups is the gold standard for accuracy. The occasional 3 shot or 5 shot group only means the bullet zigged and zagged and landed near each other.

Can you fire three consecutive ten shot groups into an inch or under with that rifle and then come back and do it again the next day? If you can, then you will have a true MOA rifle. When I talk accuracy, that is what I am talking about. I guess I am old school as the occasional bragging group doesn't tell anything about the accuracy potential of the rifle and load.

I am not trying to be hard on you, but this internet thing seems to have no standards and folks define accuracy by a wide variety of standards. I just wanted to set out my standards so folks will understand what I am talking about. Others can define accuracy any way they wish, that is up to them, but you and I am not singing off the same page when we talk about the accuracy potential of a rifle.

We do agree that without good sights, we are wasting time. I started shooting three position match shooting in the mid-50 with good receiver sights and they can still deliver accurate shooting as good as a scope.

[45 2.1]

But REPEATABLE ten shot groups is the gold standard for accuracy. The occasional 3 shot or 5 shot group only means the bullet zigged and zagged and landed near each other.

Can you fire three consecutive ten shot groups into an inch or under with that rifle and then come back and do it again the next day? If you can, then you will have a true MOA rifle.

A couple of generations back the gold standard was 50 shot groups and the 10 shot group guys were being stepped on. The truth of the matter is a rifle will start to walk groups around the 6th shot. After that all it will tell you that the bedding isn't stabile. What are you shooting at that requires that. What are you testing anyhow?

[Trailblazer]

As far as accuracy, or the measure there of, I want a heavy weight to shoot like the RCBS. Not interested in debating semantics or statistics.

[Char-Gar]

Bobby - If a rifle will start to walk shots somewhere around the 6th round (a statement I do not concede to be factual in all cases), then how is accuracy determine, if we don't go past the walk stage? How about one hole groups?

What am I testing? Well the accuracy of the rifle. If a rifle walks I want to know that and how far. That may very well be an indicator of something that needs attention. For me, it takes ten shots to see what the accuracy potential is.

I have not checked lately, but bench rest shooters used 10 shot group. Why don't they use three shot, or five shot groups...simply because it takes ten shots to determine the true accuracy potential of a rifle and load. Yes, it is also a test of the shooter.

Bobby, you can do whatever you want, as can everybody else. You and others can adopt any personal standard for accuracy you wish. I truly don't care. But to understand someone else when they say they have an MOA rifle, I need to know the standards by which they make that determination. At least is they are asking for advise, counsel or feedback, which was the case in this instance.

I just wanted to state my standards so folks can interprets my posts correctly. If, I go by the occasional five shot group with one shot called out because of sight blur or the sun, then my gun safes are filled with MOA rifles, but I know that isn't true, at least by my standards. I am a half century into this shooting game and far past the need to brag on rifles or shooting. I have nothing to prove to anybody.

Trailblazer... If you only need to to have a heavy 30 cal cast bullet shoot as well as your RCBS 180 then that is entirely possible. 311284 that is a proper fit etc. etc. etc. will do that. I also have a custom Mountain Mold 220 grain with a honking .250 meplat who will also do it at 2,000 fps. I also have an old Hensley and Gibbs mould that casts a 225 grain GC bullet that does very well in my Brownchester 30-40. It has a long nose that runs .300 so doesn't do as well as others in the other 30-40 rifles that need a larger nose.

You can get all the accuracy the rifle has to give, whatever that may be, with 200 plus grain gas check bullets

311284 isn't a true "bore rider" as least by my definition as it is about 50-50 body and nose. With so much body, it will do a reasonable job of keeping the nose centered if it is a hair to small. That is the genius of 311284, 311291 and other original Barlow/Ideal designs. True bore riders had better have the nose riding on the lands or else!

Others may do it different ways but here is my way, which was the point of your original post.

Alloy ACWW or No. 2
Sized to fit the throat, lands and grooves
Lube.. Felix
Power and charge 50/WC872 - dribbled in through a three foot drop tube to compact it.
Primer - Remington 9.5.. I have used Rem. 9.5M and it does give a cleaner burn, but groups open up a smidge.

In several of my rifles, this will deliver accuracy on par with your RCBS 180s which is an excellent bullet. I have an NEI clone of that bullet that is nose pour which is also very good at the 190 grain weight range. Lyman 311467 will also produce the results you want in the 180 grain grain range. 311407 will also do it, but ten grains lighter due to the meplat. 311291 will also deliver that accuracy at the 165-170 grain weight.

311339 was designed for the Krag, but my mold is too small on the nose at .299 to give best accuracy although it does reasonably well. In the 150 grain range 311466 is great. I also understand that some of the Lee molds are good.

Cast bullet accuracy that you want is fairly easy if you stay under the 1.7 fps mark. When you want to go to 2K and beyond, then things become more complicated due to the pressures on the bullet, but it can be done.

I went to gibrass.com and WC872 is available, but the price is way higher than I paid some years back. I guess the days of cheap mil-surp power are now history. Lots of luck with your 30-40 rifle. As you can tell, I favor them strongly along with the 30-30 and 30-06. I just like, and have always liked 30 caliber rifles. They are "American's caliber".

Keep em in the X-Ring... Charles Graff

[45 2.1]

Bobby - If a rifle will start to walk shots somewhere around the 6th round (a statement I do not concede to be factual in all cases) Probably so , then how is accuracy determine, if we don't go past the walk stage? How about one hole groups? Give this a try: Take a rifle you know to shoot well that has a good scope on it you can see well with, Load enough ammo to shoot 5 - 10 round groups + whatever foulers you want, shoot your rifle at a target (whatever way you like) and plot each shot (as it happens) on a representative target. Let the rifle completely cool down between each group. Shoot all the groups. Now, do you see a pattern to the shot placement? Does that pattern repeat itself? I've tested that for the last 30 years. With a dependable load in an accurate rifle it repeats. When one repeats like that it is possible to hold off for each numbered shot and shoot a smaller group than what it actually produce.
What am I testing? Well the accuracy of the rifle. One shot every ten minutes does that also, but its irrelevant to what you want. If a rifle walks I want to know that and how far. That may very well be an indicator of something that needs attention. For me, it takes ten shots to see what the accuracy potential is.

I have not checked lately, but bench rest shooters used 10 shot group. I just checked the CBA site for their records, they shoot 5 shot groups. Why don't they use three shot, or five shot groups...simply because it takes ten shots to determine the true accuracy potential of a rifle and load. Yes, it is also a test of the shooter. The shooters before us said they used 50 to determine what you want. Things change, don't they.

Bobby, you can do whatever you want, as can everybody else. You and others can adopt any personal standard for accuracy you wish. I truly don't care. But to understand someone else when they say they have an MOA rifle, I need to know the standards by which they make that determination. At least is they are asking for advise, counsel or feedback, which was the case in this instance.

I just wanted to state my standards so folks can interprets my posts correctly. If, I go by the occasional five shot group with one shot called out because of sight blur or the sun, then my gun safes are filled with MOA rifles, but I know that isn't true, at least by my standards. I am a half century into this shooting game and far past the need to brag on rifles or shooting. I have nothing to prove to anybody. You answered my question........Thanks.

[Pat I.]

I just checked the CBA site for their records, they shoot 5 shot groups.

Actually we shoot 5 and 10 shot groups and score. Not all ranges shoot groups because you have to have a moving backer system so no one is tempted to not quite finish or put one in the dirt so they don't destroy that perfect group they have going but at regionals and the nationals the course of fire is four 5 shot groups at 100 and 200, two ten shot groups at 100 and 200, and four score targets at 100 and 200. Records are kept for all of them.

Some clubs do shoot group matches without a backer system but without one you can't set a record.

[Trailblazer]

Chargar, thanks for the answer on the heavy weights.

[Bullshop]

Forgive me fellows but I just cant help myself when the talk is of 30/40's.
This has nothing to do with your heavy boolit discussion but it is 30/40.
Yesterday my boys and I abandoned all work efforts and headed for a local gravel pit.
We set up a target at 500 yards and started having some fun.
BSx2 was shooting a Rossi 44 mag and managed a couple hits. BSx1 was shooting his Husky 30/06 and doing well. I was shooting a mod 1899 Kraig and doing OK too.
Shooting was done in formal good ol boy style leaning over the PU.
The Kraig shooting a Saeco 180gn TCGC over 19gn Alliant Steel was holding between 2 and 3 moa with most shots staying in 2.
The WW boolits found after impacting gravel were well smooshed.
This 30/40 is new to me and I feel in time we will get it to do much better. None the less though it was a great day as it has finally warmed up here and the time spent with my boys having fun was well spent.
Oh BTW this was made possible because BS Mom took all the girls to FB for some shopping. When the task master is away!!! Don't nobody tell now, ya hear!
BIC/BS

[Crash_Corrigan]

I have been messing around with the 311284 with WDWW's and then sized down to .308 and paper patched and then sized with a dollop of JPW and pushed thru a Lee sizer at .309.


Loaded over 30 gr of 4064 I am getting 1750 FPS out of a Garand with light recoil and the empties are dumped right in front of me! No searching around for the brass. Accuracy is excellent out to 300 yds.

The downside is confetti in the innards of the weapon when field stripped. A clean bore but I imagine that without cleaning after a couple of hundred rounds the functions may go south with this loading.

Next is to try some fillers and see if I can improve the accuracy from 2 MOA to something better.

[onceabull]

Dan: In the advanced literature on the subject,the short form description is '' Using a Taffin/Kelly machine rest "... Onceabull

[w30wcf]

Trailblazer,

I have two .30-30 788 Remington rifles with a 10" twist. I have two 311284 molds. One has a .300" forepart, and the other, .302". In heat treated wheelweights, the bullet with the .302" forpart will shoot moa at 2,100 f.p.s. .....if ido my part. The bullet with the .300" ......not so good. As has been said, the bullet really needs to fit the barrel....both fore and aft.....

Regarding the best factory .30 Caliber bullet for 500M silhouette shooting, several fellows that shoot cast at the Ridgway Rifle Club (NRA High Power Silhouette National Championships have been held there)have found either the 311299 or 314299 (depending on the best fit for the individual bore) to be the bullet of choice. Bullets from my mold in w.w. + 2% tin weigh 208 grs. with the g.c. on board.

Not to say that the 311284 won't work...it will, but the 299 has a higher ballistic coefficient and will flatten 500 M rams just fine. For folks using .308's and .30-06's, the 299 does not protrude into the powder space like the 311284 can.

One other thing to consider......the velocity decay @ 500M is higher at 2,000 f.p.s. than it is @ 1,800 f.p.s. 1,078 remaining velocity vs 1,013.....only 65 f.p.s. difference.

Have fun.
w30wcf

[Ben]

For whatever it is worth in this discussion on the 311284 ............It has been my experience that under the right conditions that the 311284 can deliver fine accuracy. I've never tried pushing it to 2,000 fps or over so I can't say what it would do at those speeds ?

These bullets are from the NOE , 311284, nose is .302, Bands are .3115 "
I'm sizing the bands to .3095 " They are cast from air cooled WW's.

My rifle is a 98 Mauser with small ring internal threads in the front of the receiver ring. The barrel is a pristine new ( I acquired it in the green paper packed in and out in red brown cosmoline ) Springfield 1903 - A3, RA - 44 , 2 groove barrel with a mirror smooth bore :

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/PICT0003-28.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/PICT0009-6.jpg

[JDL]

Nice rifle Ben! What am I looking at under the receiver, a clip?
JDL

[qajaq59]

Sorry to stray here, but what brand is that peep sight? I'd like something like that on my Win 94 instead of the Williams I have on it now.

[Trailblazer]

The sight is a Pedersoli. I got lucky on that one. Bought it in Cabela's bargain cave for $72.

Just a couple comments. I decided on the 311284 because it was designed for the 30-40 with its long throat. I thought it would be more accurate than the 311299 in the long throat. As far as velocity goes, more is better. The general rule is you need 1000 ft. lbs. of energy to reliably take the rams. We are talking about 500-600 ft. lbs with these cast bullets so even 80 FPS would help.

[Doby45]

Nice rifle Ben! What am I looking at under the receiver, a clip?
JDL

Looks like it might be a magazine. Clips go in a rifle from the top, not the bottom.