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View Full Version : How would ya like to see ..........



Jack Stanley
07-31-2006, 06:50 PM
Savage reintroduce the 219 with rifle barrels again ? I've only seen a few at the shows and shops I travel . When I do see them they usually are pretty tired looking . I wrote Savage a letter a few years ago when they were trying to think of things that'd sell .
It seemed to me that the 30-30 would be as good as always . I'd like the 32-20 but I suppose that the Hornet or the Bee would be a nice option too . I wonder if the 375 Winchester would sell ..... the 7m/m Waters ? ............. OK go real modern the .500 S&W :roll: [smilie=1: .........:coffee: Just thinking out loud

Jack

Bucks Owin
08-01-2006, 02:07 PM
A .375 Win would be a great choice IMHO....(AND the .356)

It must drive manufacturers nuts trying to "predict" a cartridge that will sell. A whole slew of really good ones didn't make the grade over the years. The excellent .225 and .284 Winnies come to mind, the fine .280 Rem barely lasted until it could be renamed the 7mm "Express", the Bees and Zippers...

Handguns like the .22 Jet, .256 Win, the "Maximums"....

Of course the magic "M word" never hurts, as does the "legitimizing" of popular old wildcats like Remington does. The .22/250, .25/06 for example, the .30/338 (.308 Norma), .416....Even trickery like the identical .244 and 6mm Rem!

Cartridges are based on "ad campaign" success rather than actual performance IMO....

Crazy stuff...

Dennis :roll:

StarMetal
08-01-2006, 02:53 PM
Well the 244 and 6mm weren't trickery. Remington made the bad mistake that the 244 and Winchesters 243 would only be used for varmint hunting and they (Remington) went with a slow twist that wouldn't stablize heavier bullets for deer hunting. So they had to change the rifling and rename the cartridge to get it to sell because of the bad rap the 244 got with heavier bullets.

The 280 Remington is one of the top selling calibers especially in custom rigs. It didn't take long for knowledgeable riflemen to realize that basically you have a cartridge here that equals the 7mm Rem Mag without the belt, the large volume of powder, and the recoil. I think had the 280 been invented when the 270 Winchester came out that Jack O'Conner would have sang a different tune. The 280 is everyting the 270 is and more. I think it's one of the best all around cartridges ever conceived. Nothing wrong with the good old 30-06 except these new folks want something "different".

The 219 Zipper and the 219 Donaldson Wasp come along when there were alot of surplus Krags on the market, and the only other most common rifle was the leveraction. Both used rimmed cartridges and a varmint round, especiallin 22 caliber was needed, the 219's. Not a good choice today unless you want a leveraction in 22 caliber.

The 284 is still hanging in there and has spawned a bunch of wildcats, which the 6.5-284 seems the most popular. Good thing it's still around or alot of the forum members that use 284 brass for their 7.5 Swiss wouldn't have it.

I think the 375 died out because more and more hunters switched from leveraction deer rifles to boltactions. I don't know how it was when you were young where you lived, but from where I grew up leveractions were always concidered entry level rifles, and I must admit they were half the price of a bolt action rifle. Then after you got a better job you moved on up the ladder to a bolt rifle. The levers were good for young kids too because they are light, small, and don't recoil too much. This by all means not to say that a bolt action rifle is better for hunting then a leveraction. Just my opinion why the 375 died out. I think it's one of the best calibers that Winchester came out with on 94. Ever notice how towards the end there that leveraction cartridged tried to become bolt action cartridges, except with a rim? Like the 307 Winchester, which is very close to the 308, or the 7mm Waters, which is close to the 7mm-08, and the 35 calibers they made too, similar to the 358 Winchester. They were realizing that leveraction fans were turning to bolt rifles.

This is all just my opinion as I see it.

Joe

Bucks Owin
08-01-2006, 04:06 PM
Seems like trickery to me to unveil a "new" cartridge in the 6mm Rem. Why not rename the rifle rather than the cartridge? "The new Dual Purpose 1:9 Rifle!" Jeeze, Rem even put the same rounds in different packaging both .244 and 6mm!
(IMO, they could have just called it the "Rockchucker" rather than .244 Rem, it wasn't a Rem design, it was Fred Huntington's as I recall...)

Same with the .280 Rem/ 7mm Express. Why not just call the 7mm Mauser "The New .284x57 Remington"! The .280 Rem is an old cartridge, Rem's (too?) late answer to the .270's success but it was chambered in the wrong rifles IMO, who wanted the .280 in a semi auto in those days? (And of course, it didn't have J. O'C promoting it!) The 7mm "Express" gave it a new lease on life I think. It's a great caliber "rediscovered"...(BTW, I'm sure Jack was aware of the .280's potential but maybe he chose to ignore it due to his affection (affliction?) with the .270 Win. He was always a booster of the 7X57 and I know he used a 275 H&H on at least one hunt for antelope so it wasn't like he was allergic to .284" bullets...)

.22/250? It was the "Varminter" long before it was a "Remington". .25/06? I can't remember who it was that first necked the /06 down to .25 cal but it was many decades ahead of Remington!

Why is there a ".44 Rem Mag" but not a ".357 Win Mag"? Both companies paralleled as far as the design work went. More glory grabbing from Reminton?

I agree there are a ton of wildcats based on the .284 and I think that's a good thing. (My favorite is the 6mm/.284) One could argue that the .284 was the "new" Win "short magnum" ahead of it's time. But it was designed to fit a short action rifle (M88 and 100) with .270 Win or .280 Rem performance. I think it did just that but nobody seemed to notice I guess and the (fine) rifles themselves died...


I'm not slamming the cartridges themselves, just the name game advertising of them. They're all great rounds....

I think we're on the same page Joe, but maybe we're like O'Connor and Page? Win vs Rem [smilie=1:

In a way, I guess Rem's "name game" is a good thing. At least it's given some golden oldies a new lease on life for younger shooters....

One thing for sure, we're dating ourselves! LOL

:drinks:

Dennis

BTW, I agree about the Wasp and Zipper being early inexpensive "Krag Varminters" but they were also ushering in that great new game of Benchresting.....(If not in the somewhat weak "one lug" Krag action)

And I wouldn't mind a Ruger #1 in ANY of those rimmed oldies... :-D (Leverguns just ain't my thing I guess, when I see a rim on a case I think single shot...)

Jack Stanley
08-01-2006, 10:23 PM
I remember several years back the T/C came out with a single shot rifle with interchangable barrels .... I think it was called the TCR . Entirely different design than the Contenders which don't do a thing for me . The TCR was chambered for all the hot rod cartridges that I had on a bolt rifle and wasn't looking for in a single shot break open . Had they chambered perhaps the 30-30 or the .375 Winchester or any number of fine rimmed woodchuck slayers , I wouldn't have had to buy a Kimber 84 to aswage my grief . What's a fella gotta do to get a neat single .... buy a Merkel ?:roll:

Jack

Bucks Owin
08-02-2006, 01:00 PM
Kind of a follow up regarding old BR calibers...

Was reading an article from the Dec, 1954 AR regarding the 1st National BR Championship meet at Custer, SD. Here's the line up of calibers and how many were using them:

Shooters using......................caliber..............Ti mes "in the money"

43...........................................219 Donaldson Wasp............104
17...........................................222 Rem................................59
15...........................................22/250...................................15
1.............................................220 B&B................................2
1.............................................220 Swift...............................1
1..............................................25 Donaldson Ace.................0
1..............................................219 Zipper............................0


World record groups at that time were as follows:

100 yds 5 shot: .22/250 .1057"
200 yds 5 shot .219 Donaldson .3032"
300 meters 5 shot .250 Don. Ace .6735"

100 yds 10 shot .219 Don. .2677"
" " " " .222 Rem " " (tied)
200 yds 10 shot .219 Don. .5276"
300 meters 10 shot .219 Don. 1.740"


Kind of interesting that the .219 Wasp was still such a favorite even though the .222 Rem had been introduced years earlier. (1950 I think) I guess the "triple deuce" was just starting to catch on at that time. It sure went on to do great things BR wise!

Anyway, a little slice of BR history here FWIW,

Dennis

BTW, what the heck was the ".220 B&B"?

felix
08-02-2006, 01:27 PM
".220 B&B"? ... No idea. ... felix

9.3X62AL
08-02-2006, 03:58 PM
In 1954, I don't think it was "Bed & Breakfast". There weren't any yuppies yet.

Bucks Owin
08-03-2006, 12:26 AM
Maybe the ".220 Blastyn and Bytchen"? :roll:

Dennis

Junior1942
08-03-2006, 08:01 AM
. . . I think had the 280 been invented when the 270 Winchester came out that Jack O'Conner would have sang a different tune. The 280 is everyting the 270 is and more. I agree 100%.

StarMetal
08-03-2006, 11:13 AM
Thank you Junior for having the same thoughts as me on the 280. I really think it's a great cartridge and Remington really really screwed up first bringing it out in an autoloader and pump and downloading the round.

Joe

Newtire
08-04-2006, 12:08 AM
Why is there a ".44 Rem Mag" but not a ".357 Win Mag"? Both companies paralleled as far as the design work went. More glory grabbing from Reminton?


I'm not slamming the cartridges themselves, just the name game advertising of them. They're all great rounds....


In a way, I guess Rem's "name game" is a good thing. At least it's given some golden oldies a new lease on life for younger shooters....

One thing for sure, we're dating ourselves! LOL

:drinks:

Dennis

Hi Bucks,
I heard a good story about the Winchester/Remington rivalry back when Remington came out with their Wingmaster shotgun. One of the Remington Brass reportedly commented that he thought the name sounded a little too much like Winchester. He was told (the story goes), "Well who do you think is eating our lunch with their Model 12. Newtire=Proud inheritor of M12.

Bucks Owin
08-04-2006, 12:54 PM
Hi Bucks,
I heard a good story about the Winchester/Remington rivalry back when Remington came out with their Wingmaster shotgun. One of the Remington Brass reportedly commented that he thought the name sounded a little too much like Winchester. He was told (the story goes), "Well who do you think is eating our lunch with their Model 12. Newtire=Proud inheritor of M12.



I absolutely dote on M12 pumpguns! (Have two 12 ga, a 16 and a 20..)

Good story Newtire...

My Dad once saw Herb Parsons do some "Model 12 magic" at a fair and I think it was one of his fondest memories...

I'll bet Remington would've liked to have had THAT guy doing some exhibition shooting for them! I've seen film and the guy was a wizard with a M-12....

FWIW,

Dennis

Jack Stanley
08-09-2006, 09:50 PM
I went to a show last weekend and saw several model 12 Winchesters ( saw a couple model 12 Remingtons too! ) While I've seen the shotguns before I never really handled one so I looked at the show guns a little more . I can apprieciate the workmanship they put into them But for some reason it still didn't do anything for me . Maybe it's one of those things that ya have to freeze in a duck blind with one for a while or get into a thorn tangle chasing pheasants . That sort of thing I've done with a Super-X model one and a 870 lightweight magnum and I do like them a bit better .
I saw one that looked like it was a take-down , I thought that was a nice feature . Likeable guns , but for me the collectors have kept the prices higher than I want to try one to see if I like it . Maybe that's why I look at the old single shots huh? [smilie=1:

Jack

Bucks Owin
08-10-2006, 09:15 AM
I went to a show last weekend and saw several model 12 Winchesters ( saw a couple model 12 Remingtons too! ) While I've seen the shotguns before I never really handled one so I looked at the show guns a little more . I can apprieciate the workmanship they put into them But for some reason it still didn't do anything for me . Maybe it's one of those things that ya have to freeze in a duck blind with one for a while or get into a thorn tangle chasing pheasants . That sort of thing I've done with a Super-X model one and a 870 lightweight magnum and I do like them a bit better .
I saw one that looked like it was a take-down , I thought that was a nice feature . Likeable guns , but for me the collectors have kept the prices higher than I want to try one to see if I like it . Maybe that's why I look at the old single shots huh? [smilie=1:

Jack


All M-12s take down Jack.....

The reason for their demise as a production gun was the amount of hand work that went into each one apparently. They were then produced as a "custom" shotgun by Winchester with "custom" prices!....

I think most would agree that they were the pinnacle of American pump shotguns and you still see them everywhere, from the duck blind to the trap field...

( Not to mention as "trench guns" in both world wars...)

FWIW,

Dennis

BTW, I like some of the single shots too. I saw a M-37 Winnie "Youth" model for sale yesterday for $189 which I thought about trying to get for my little shooter. Had it been a 20 ga, I probably would have. Alas it was a .410 which is the last gauge (cal) that a 9 yr old needs! A lot of experienced shooters can't hit with that miniscule shot charge...

Jumptrap
08-10-2006, 10:54 AM
I have a model 12 that belonged to my grandfather...seems one of dad's brothers bought it about 1948, then later sold it to granddad..anyway..it made the corcle back to me...it's a 12 gauge..cylinder bore. There used to be plenty of quail years ago and a cylinder bored gun was quite popular...on the rise a load of 7 1/2's or 8's tended to score several at each shot. Anyway.........I fail to achieve an erection over the model 12. They're nice old guns, made the old fashioned way....but they do nothing for me. I never could understand why anybody wanted a gun you had to shuck when you could get one that shucked itself! I suppose the old man's model 11 Remington started that for me years ago and I never got over it. I have had a few O/U's, but prefer a nice double. If you want to see true shotgun magic....get yourself an Ithaca Mag 10..painless to shoot...much more comfortable than a 12 gauge with heavy loads...and it never ceases to amaze what happens downrange when the trigger gets pulled. But back to pumpguns......I dont like'em, have owned a couple and if I were going to buy one for everyday use.....it'd be a Mossberg 500...they're plain and ugly, cheap to buy and they work. I traded mine for a squirrel dog!

StarMetal
08-10-2006, 11:19 AM
My shotgun is a Browning Upland straight English stock short 21 inch barreled BPS in 20ga. I like the bottom ejection, no seed or dust get in the action when hunting, the receiver is all steel and still light, I believe Remington once had this action, then Ithaca picked it up, now Browning....I think it's the best of the pumps. Benelli is making a dynamite pump too now.

Joe

Jack Stanley
08-10-2006, 08:01 PM
Dennis , that goes to show ya what I know about them :-D Maybe someday the bug will bite and I'll trade the old Remington hammer sidelock for one o' them pump things .

Jack