cast bullets in 30-06 rifle

[whitetailsniper]

hello all, can someone tell me the max. speed fps. that one should stay under
when using cast bullets in a 30-06 interarms rifle to avoid leading
problems?? i have 3 molds i bought for my sons 30-06 interarms rifle. there all rcbs molds,there all gas check, the following are the grain weight after casting
173 grain,,,176 grain,,187 grain. i am trying to figure out,and decide witch of these will be best suited for deer hunting, while providing the best accuracy. i am thinking the 176 grain would be best choice as it has a nice flat nose. thinking of setting this bullet on 13.0 grain of red dot to start and going from there. any suggestions are welcomed,and greatful.

[Blammer]

what mould numbers are they? that may help.

I'd say that around 1800fps will be pleanty for deer.

I'm shooting a 311284 that wt's 226gr at approx 1850 fps and think it will do just fine on deer.

[Marlin Junky]

I take a different approach to hunting type loads in small bore rifles. Given your boolit fits your rifle and your alloy is the proper strength (notice I said strength, not hardness) I like to fill the case with the same "on-the-slow-side" powders used with copper patched boolits. In your case, about 40 grains of 4350 might be a good place to start.

Your barrel is the limiting factor with respect to accuracy & velocity and if your particular barrel is only capable of accuracy at 1800-1900 fps, air cooled clip-on WW metal that is .001" to .002" over maximum groove diameter is a good place to start. Size and gas check boolits soon after casting; however, load and range test boolits 2 to 3 weeks later for best results. Shoot 10 to 15 round strings while developing your load and be willing to try a few quality lubes. If your air cooled WW metal won't group, alloy it with softer lead and either water drop or heat treat. Heat treating a lead/WW alloy up to about 14-16 BHN will produce a good hunting type boolit that, depending on your barrel and chamber pressure, may take you to 2500 fps or more. Higher tin/antimony boolits are easier to cast and will yield higher BHN values when air cooled but they will be harder, more brittle and poorer hunting boolits. What we're looking for is a boolit that will withstand the rotational stresses of barrel travel opposed to one that's hard through and through. In the event you find a boolit with a small meplat that shoots well in your rifle, assuming you have cast it with a HT'd lead/WW alloy, you can pass a propane torch over the ogive while the boolit is standing in water to draw back the nose.

OR, you can take the paper patch approach! Both methods are good but I think the grooved/lubed boolit is less work once you've figured everything out.

MJ

[whitetailsniper]

on what molds they are,,,i have 2 rcbs,,and 1 lyman. there as follows=rcbs 30-180sp
rcbs 30-165sil
lyman 31141 173 fn
all are gas check and dropted from mold using wheel weights,and adding gas ck the weights are 184 grains
173 grains
178 grains my bullet hardness is about 18

id like to know what max speed not to exceed so i dont smear the bore with led. i was told as long as i stay under 1500 fps, i should be ok,,is that true? of these 3 molds witch would you suggeste to use for deer,,and loading with red dot how much,??

[Blammer]

the lyman 31141 will be a very good choice for deer hunting, it has a nice meplat and will work well. I would choose that one to start with.

If you have any IMR3031 I'd try about 30gr of that for starters. I have no experience with red dot, sorry.

Your "max speed so you don't smear the bore with lead" is really the wrong sort of question.

Leading, (smearing the bore with lead) or lack of it, depends mostly on the fit of the bullet to the barrel and the lube used. Velocity is not really part of that equation. I can get a whopping 2200fps out of my 30-06 with the 31141, no leading in the barrel but accuracy is poor . I can get 1800fps with that bullet and no leading but very good accuracy. Results will vary from person to person.

What you should be striving for, in my opinion, is good bullet fit to bore and good accuracy.

Lube is another important factor. I use speed green for everything, it works well for me. There are many other lubes out there that also work well for hi velocity, hi pressure rounds.

First thing I would do is slug the barrel and throat to see what size you need to size your bullets to. If it comes out at .308 dia, I'd see if a bullet sized to .310 will chamber and start from there.

Deer can be killed with velocity ranges from 1300 fps and up.

Wheel weight alloy is a good place to start. It is sufficient for deer hunting too. I would not worry about BHN right now, choose an alloy and a method, water quenching or air cooled and stick with it for a while till you get some results.

A general rule that I've heard is that WW alloy air cooled can easily be shot at 2000 fps and less without leading.

I have a 35 whelen I push a 180gr bullet at 2400fps and get no leading. It's WW alloy air cooled. It's devestating on ground hogs at 15 yds. :)

[Marlin Junky]

I have a 35 whelen I push a 180gr bullet at 2400fps and get no leading. It's WW alloy air cooled. It's devestating on ground hogs at 15 yds. :)

Manufacturer and spec's on your barrel, please. Can I assume the accuracy holds out beyond 15 yards? :-)

MJ

[whitetailsniper]

hi guys, ok did a powder inventory, heres what i got, imr4350 3 lbs of it,red dot,bulls eye,unique and lots of it,,varget,trail boss,clays,universal,long shot,w296 and lots of it,,700x,herco i have sluged this barrel=.308 i also know the exact chamber length for each of these molds. i lube with and only have spg lube,and use it on my 41 rem mag,45 acp.45 long colt, and my 454 casull,44 mag, and .50 ae,, the reason i went with spg is the price was right for tons of it,id like to get another lubamatic 2 ,but not as of yet. when i do lbt blue soft would be my first choice. so with the powders i have what do you recomend to start with. i was thinking the lyman mold for 1st choice. lyman 31141 @173 grains flat nose gas ck. yes, this rifle is wicked accurate,, like i stated i loaded up some siearra 115 grain,,and @200 yrds the kid was putting them in the same holes,, there were guys sighting in there 30-06 rifles that were asking all sorts questions,and shooting 1000.00 rifles with patterns all over the map. kid was grinnin from ear to ear. i told him we need to get the casted bullets to shoot like that. of course i loaded those 115 grains with varget.

[mroliver77]

You have been given some good advice. Start with a squeaky clean copper free barrel.Personally, I like to have the antimony/tin ratio even as in 92-4-4 or 94-3-3. This makes for a tough malleable boolit that stays together well and expands nicely. I use a powder on the slower side for the cartridge and find a starting load around 1800fps and use Dacron to fill the air space in the case.Find the loading depth of the boolit and then start looking for accuracy. I will load up to 2200 if accuracy is there but normally keep around 2000fps unless longer shots are a possibility. If pushing the speed envelope and the first couple can be shot with acceptable accuracy I might use that load if cleaning gear can be had soon. I would not take a load that fouled the bore deep into the mountains or outback where dangerous game could be a consideration. A 180 grain with a blunt nose and proper alloy fired at 2000fps will take deer very well at 200+ yards. I dont like to use marginal power loads as where I hunt if an animal can move very far after hit it might soon end up under somebody else tag.
My limited experience.
Jay

[Blammer]

whitetail, of the powders you listed, if it were me I'd start with Varget or IMR4350. I personally would not use fillers to start with. You should be able to get good results with out them. When I load varget or IMR4350 in my jacketed bullet ammo I don't use a filler. :)

not sure if spg is up to the task on the 30-06, others may chime in to say so. If you have bullplate sprue lube and some beeswax you can make speed green.

marlin junky, PM incoming on the 35 whelen, I don't want to hi jack this thread.

[whitetailsniper]

blammer, with what weight should i start with on these powders would you sugjest.

[lead chucker]

Hi I have used the Lee 170 gr With 50/50 ww to lead gas checked over 29 gr imr 3031 and have been pleased with that 1.5 inch group at 100yds crono at 1800 to 1850 fps. Have not had leading problems. My rifle is a western field 308 win. I hope this might give you some help. I tried red dot but could never get any good groups out of it.

[grouch]

There's a lot of good comment here. I tried this some years ago with a 4 groove Spingfield, Lee 309150F with water dropped ww+2%tin and H4895. Went to 44gr before the bore at the muzzle turned grey and I chickenned out. The velocity was 2530 fps with 43gr. As to bullet selection,if velocity is the goal, I favor Veral Smith's theory that the less unsupported nose wobbling off down the bore the better, and that means as much full depth contact length as possible, NOT bore ride.
As to leading, if you watch what you're doing and work your way up without firing a lot of shots loaded way too hot, the minor leading you get will clean out easily if your bore is decent. I've tried fillers several times and found them counter productive every time even with small charges of fast powder. That's my 2 cents worth.
Grouch

[Blammer]

with IMR4350 I'd probably start with 36gr and move up in one grain increments until a group developed. I'd go no more than 48 gr.

I'd shoot 5 shot groups at 50 yds to start.

I'd have to do some research on Varget.

[Rockydog]

Gentlemen, Unless there are circumstances surrounding the use of cast boolits that I'm not aware of, and this is a fairly new arena for me, I'm a bit confused about your recommendations for loads of IMR4350 that far exceed minimum loads as published by IMR for calibers and bullet weights. I know that I've read in numerous places that powders as slow as 4350 should not be reduced below factory published minimums due to the fact that these powders can be hard to light and may result in extremely high pressures if, for example, they light after the bullet has already started down the barrel due to primer pressure, acting like a bore obstruction. There are many anecdotal accounts of ringed chambers etc. Small amounts of faster powders that have traditionally been used for cast boolits or the use of Trail Boss powder might be more appropriate as would published, reduced loads of 4895. There are references to not underloading 4350 in several reloading manuals. I certainly wouldn't reduce 4350. Just my opinion. YMMV. Rockydog

[Blammer]

This info was from the Lyman Cast Bullet reloading manual with that caliber and bullet.

Cast bullets have a LOT less FRICTION than a jacketed bullet, so your pressures won't be as high.

[runfiverun]

as to the 4350 i'm with rocky on this.
other powders are much better suited, but not 4350.
it seems ideal, but it does have the highest incident rate.
small amounts of fast powder, medium burn rate rifle powder with a filler, or a case full [or dang near so] of a too slow powder has always worked best for me.

[Char-Gar]

My thoughts on the subject at hand.

The RCBS 180 will actual cast out at 190 grains and makes a fine hunting cast bullet. Like wise for the Lyman bullet although lighter in weight. The meplat on the RCBS is too small for a good hunting bullets.

1.5 to 1.7 fps is plenty of speed for deer and many powders like 2400, 4227 and 4759 will get you there without a protracted search. These fast burners don't do well if the velocity gets much above 1.8K fps as they deliver a quick spank to the bullet base which results in distortion/accordion effect of the bullet. Faster loads do much better with slower powders that don't spank the bullet base as hard. They shove rather than spank the bullet down the barrel.

Now as to very slow powders like 4350, 4831 or WC872 with cast bullets. They all deliver very fine accuracy, but you need a lightly compressed powder column for a good safe uniform burn. If the powder charge itself isn't tall enough, then a filler like shotshell buffer will do the trick. You can expect some unburned powder with these loads but who cares if the accuracy and speed are there.

Cast bullet accuracy is the right combination of bullet size (nose and body), bullet temper, bullet design, powder type, powder charge and a decent lube. These factors will vary from rifle to rifle and load velocity to load velocity (pressure). See how simple it is :-)

[Larry Gibson]

If we are talking the potential of SEE then it is 4831 that has the greatest track record along with some other of the slower burning powders also being involved. However, SEE is caused, under certain conditions (yes they have been replicated in labs for some years now) by the bullet becoming a bore obstruction in the throat. This is with a jacketed bullet. I do not know of a single case of SEE from a cast bullet. Reportedly there is one case but the facts have not been clearly presented so that one is still up in contention. SEE is well documented in cases where a jacketed bullet is used with a reduced load of slow burning powder where the throat is long (due to a long throat or a bullet seated way off the leade). This sets up certain conditions after a couple or several shots are fired where the bullet sticks in the throat before the pressures are high enough to keep it moving. Then as the pressure builds the stuck bullet is then essentially a bore obstruction and excessive pressures are the result with attendant consequences. There is also one documented case of SEE in a Contender 45-70 using 2400 under 300 gr jacketed bullets.

As to the use of 4350, 4831, RL19 and RL22 in reduced cast bullet loads; I have been using these powders for many years in such reduced cast bullet loads and have got no indication of any "high pressure" unless the load was loaded as a high pressure load. There has been no indication of any high pressure "spikes". When reduced loads are used without any filler then erratic ignition can cause large variances in pressure. However none of them are "over pressure". As most of you know I not only have been chronographing loads since '75 but have been measuring pressures for the last few years. I have used 4350, 4831, RL19 and RL22 extensively in loads where pressures have been measured. There has been no indication of any factors leading to SEE what so ever. As a matter of fact the last few months I have conducted extensive tests in the 6.5x55 with just such powders at 45 – 60% loading densities. I have so far fired over 500 rounds with the pressures of each shot being measured and a graph of the time/pressure curve being shown. Not a single case of pressure spiking or abnormality has been noted.

Another point is that the lead of a cast bullet of the hardest of alloys of 28 - 30 BHN let alone any of softer alloys if it gets stuck in the throat or bore will get pushed out the barrel well before dangerous pressures are achieved in a SEE situation. Interesting to not in the time /pressure graph you can see where the bullet is sized into the throat and bore and when fully groove engraved the pressure evens out slightly and then picks up again. As mentioned with such powders if the loading density is less than 80 – 85% then a filler (dacron and the shot buffers work well) is a considerable help with ignition consistency.

The use of such slower burning powder reduced loads with medium to heavy weight cast bullets for caliber are very useful for several applications; softer alloyed bullets at higher velocity for hunting, high velocity loads, etc. They are, or at least can be, very accurate and very useful. The king already knows about this so there is not much to be gained by commenting on the sky is falling. Some do not like to use fillers and there are other avenues open to them. Many of us do like to use fillers with certain powders in certain loads. Those open additional avenues to us. They have been proven not to be dangerous at all. The key to their use, like with anything else, is to use them correctly with in the parameters intended. In the case of filler use those parameters are pretty wide. The key 2 parameters being that it must be a filler and not a wad. One also must understand that when using a filler with a given powder charge (any burning rate of powder) the pressure and velocity will increase. Conversely there are many benefits to using fillers with medium to slow burning powders such as mentioned.

If you want to use such loads with fillers then it is incumbent on you to learn about them and their proper use. If you don’t want to use them then by all means don’t. However, please don’t criticize the use of them simply because you choose not to understand how to use them or to use them.

Larry Gibson

[rockrat]

I have been working with water cooled WW's and LBT blue soft in my 7.62 x 39 Ruger #1. So far, best load pushes the 30-165 Sil to 2307 fps with no leading and about 2MOA on accuracy so far.

I would lean towards the 311041 slug, pushed by 4350 as stated above. On the Hodgdon website, 44 gr of Varget will go 2500fps with a 180gr bullet. If it was me personally, I would start around 36gr of Varget and work up, probably not to exceed 41-42gr as that will give you all the speed you need. Plan on working with a 190gr FP boolit in the '06 as soon as I get over my knee surgery.

[geargnasher]

While I have no personal ballistics lab to prove the safety like Larry, I have been shooting both IMR and H4350 (not interchangeably, though) for years in .30-'06 with excellent results. I'm a very careful (paranoid, even) reloader, and have had zero pressure issues using J-word powders with cast, although I can't assume any given individual would have the same knowledge fund regarding how to do it safely.

Generally, the charge is right within the J-word range for the same weight in cast, with 200+ fps greater velocity. My philosophy with cast boolits in "small" caliber rifles is to approach J-word performance, literally just substituting projectiles, rather than operating from the paradigm that cast boolits are only for low-velocity, cream-puff loads. Don't sell cast boolits short, you can achieve excellent accuracy up to at least 2400 fps in a ten-twist .30-'06 with 150-ish grain boolits cast of the proper alloy, lubed with a GOOD lube, and loaded to fit all dimensions of the gun. Now, do you NEED to shoot that fast for deer? NO. But I like to have the capacity for 250-yard hunting, and 1700 fps is kinda wimpy out at that range, not to mention drop from the not-so-ideal BC of most cast boolits.

Take it with a grain of salt,

Gear

[Bass Ackward]

Boy oh boy, my favorite power is ........................ well I don't have a favorite powder unless it works.

Scary accurate huh? I don't know, I can be pretty brave. :grin:

For the 175 grain area I like that ever life threatening and dangerous 4831 / RL19 class of powders in an 06 at about the 49-51 grain level.

If you got 4350, chop off 2 grains.

[madsenshooter]

I'm becoming a fan of some of the slower burning powders myself. BA is certainly in the right range. 44.4gr of H4350 gives me 2150fps with the NOE K31 bullet, which is close to 190gr. That's using fireformed 7.5x55 cases, which have only slightly less capacity than the 06. That's a mild load that doesn't even seal the cases, accuracy was super with 4 of 5 shots within 1/2" at 100 yards, the 5th wasn't far away, it was one I fed from the magazine and the tip got shaved. Now, once you learn a bit about hardening bullets, I've used 49.6gr of RL19 to get 2450fps with an Eagan MX-30AR, 169gr bullet out of my K31. Accuracy wasn't as good as the K31 bullet, but was more than acceptable. The hardness of that bullet was near 23BHN, probably too hard for hunting, but fun at the range.

[whitetailsniper]

ok guys tell me if i was told wrong,,friend of mine told me NOT to load cast bullets and shoot with powders like varget and exspected speeds of 2500-2800 fps,,as it will led up the barrel something nasty, and ill have to spend time,and money for led remover to get that mess out.
cast bullets,in rifles like the 30-06 and high fps not a problem,is a problem.what are the speeds to exspected to be with cast bullets and rifles???

[whitetailsniper]

yes i have a good suply of 4350 imr powder. with a cast bullet in the 30-06 were shoulf i start with a lyman 31141 gas ck bullet? exspect speed? how far yrds wise youll think she will do?
being realalistic here im thinking under 200 yrds will be just fine for him.

[mroliver77]

If I were giving you advice I would tel;l you to stick with a fast to medium burn rate powder, air cooled WW alloy and get my feet wet using cast in the 1500-1800fps range. Read all you can about boolit fit and alloy strength you can while doing this. Then after doing an impression of your chamber/throat/barrel decide on what your needs/wants are and compare to the theorized ability of your gun. Worn tired old rifles will shoot cast but usually cannot be pushed in the velocity area.
With proper alloy and fit try out some 2000fps loads and slowly work up form there. The target will tell you when you reach the max velocity for your setup. I have found 2000+ not too hard to achieve accurately and even 2400+ in some rifles with various tweeking. Now 2" 100 yard ten shot groups is plenty accurate for hunting accuracy for me. I advise to take it slow and learn all you can. Walk before you run.
A lot of guys seem to advise about cast with little knowledge backing them up. I can shoot 2700 -3000fps in certain rifles without leading. Without accuracy too but no leading. Learn to read what your gun is telling you and it is not too hard to shoot "high velocity" cast but you will never shoot lead to the speed of jacketed with the accuracy of jacketed.
I read an awfull lot and try to understand fully what I am about to undertake when trying a new loading/shooting technique. I rarely ask for anothers load and if I consider using a posted load will research it with published info and make an INFORMED decision before using it. When asking for help list all pertinent information and not just something like " Hey can you give me the best loads for my .45 with lead?"
A book could be written to answer your question and still not cover all the bases. Hope I have helped
Jay