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Fly
05-13-2010, 09:56 PM
I have a Lee Perfect Powder Measure that came with starter kit.Being this
is the only one I have ever used I don't know how it stacks up to the others.

What kind do you folks like the best?:coffeecom

DLCTEX
05-13-2010, 10:32 PM
I have a Lyman 55, and an RCBS, but for precise measuring I use the Lee PPM. The Lee also doesn't cut powder granules due to the built in wiper. Both the others cut stick powders.

Buckshot
05-14-2010, 01:23 AM
..................Several years back Precision Shooting magazine had a rather lengthly article on volumetric powder dispensers. At one end you had the Lee Perfect Powder Measure, which at the time was still fairly new on the market. One the other end of the spectrum you had the Harrel and Culver which are both considerably more expensive then the Lee, or most any other for that matter.

I dis-remember now how many they tested, or how many different tests they ran. They did test extruded, flake and ball powders and may have also done light, med, heavy charges too. To cut to the chase ALL the measures did their best work with ball powder and the worst with extruded powders. The Lee didn't shear the extruded powder as it has a rubber wiper, and possibly a couple other did too, I don't recall.

What the test ended up proving was regardless of price, make, or operation they were All comparable. Also as you'd suspect not one of the volumetric measures could compare to the accuracy of a balance beam measure.

...............Buckshot

mike in co
05-14-2010, 01:29 AM
..................Several years back Precision Shooting magazine had a rather lengthly article on volumetric powder dispensers. At one end you had the Lee Perfect Powder Measure, which at the time was still fairly new on the market. One the other end of the spectrum you had the Harrel and Culver which are both considerably more expensive then the Lee, or most any other for that matter.

I dis-remember now how many they tested, or how many different tests they ran. They did test extruded, flake and ball powders and may have also done light, med, heavy charges too. To cut to the chase ALL the measures did their best work with ball powder and the worst with extruded powders. The Lee didn't shear the extruded powder as it has a rubber wiper, and possibly a couple other did too, I don't recall.

What the test ended up proving was regardless of price, make, or operation they were All comparable. Also as you'd suspect not one of the volumetric measures could compare to the accuracy of a balance beam measure.

...............Buckshot


actually the lee came out on top........

and its just one more reason why some guys in br have gone to lab electronic scales.

AZ-Stew
05-14-2010, 02:06 AM
Buckshot,

I know what a balance beam scale is, but what's a balance beam measure? (Same thing?? And , no, I'm not yanking your chain. If it's something I've never seen, I'm interested in the concept.)

Regards,

Stew

Bret4207
05-14-2010, 06:46 AM
FWIW- I've tried weighing out powder charges, (and boolits), in the past. I am not able to determine any difference in accuracy with weighed over thrown charges. Yes, maybe it's just me, but when it takes a micrometer to measure groups because it's one raged hole (apologies to Joe) I stopped worrying about it.

I think my most consistent measure is my B+M. The easiest to use is my Redding BR, most difficult to set is my Lyman 55. Handiest is my 2 sets of Lee scoops!

chris in va
05-14-2010, 06:58 AM
I'm fairly new to reloading but still use 'homemade' dippers and my beam scale.

cajun shooter
05-14-2010, 07:38 AM
Chris in Va, That works for you and has worked for me in the past. The problem is that it is slow and with any scoop you are going to have a different weight. ZI shoot cowboy now and it is a volume loading thing here in Louisiana because we shoot 3 or more times a month. I now use a RCBS BP scale for my Dillon, a Lyman 55 BP for my shotguns and three electronic scales to keep them in check. The Lyman is the hardest scale to adjust but it is also one of the most accurate because of three measureing drums adjustments.

Rocky Raab
05-14-2010, 09:34 AM
Measures and scales are two entirely different things. Measures dispense a set volume of powder without regard to weight. Scales are used to measure weight without regard to volume.

Usually, reloaders use them together. For speed and convenience, a measure is set up to dispense a volume of powder that is then checked for weight on a scale. Load recipes call for a given weight of a specified powder because weight is more precisely measured than volume.

But using weight isn't actually best. The energy in gunpowder is controlled by how much of the reactive chemicals are present. Weight can vary with moisture content and solvent content regardless is how much actual gunpowder is there. A precise volume would be the better way to control the amount of energy used, but due to the random variability of packing, compression and such, powder volume is almost impossible to regulate. So we use weight.

All measures work by volume. Rotary drum measures, sliding cavity measures or dipped scoop measures are ALL simply fixed volume devices - and thus potentially equal in accuracy. I say potentially because user technique and other factors enter into the picture. Nonetheless, a $30 measure and a $300 measure are no different in how they work.

Fly
05-14-2010, 10:17 AM
Rocky Raab great reply.Funny how threads get off the topic at hand.I was asking about
powder measure & not scales.But I never gave volume & weight relationship much
thought.

That's some great points.Now please back to which powder measure you like best.

Fly
05-14-2010, 10:23 AM
One other thing.Have any of you ever checked to see how close factory powder loads
measure?

I know no one wants to break open a new box of bullets just to see.But I thought maybe
some reloading Mag might have done a test to see.Hummmmmmmmm?

Rocky Raab
05-14-2010, 10:58 AM
Fly, I much prefer digital dispenser scales. My original PACT/RCBS model just died after ten years of service. I'm looking to replace it with the current RCBS (rumor has it that they are about to unveil their third-generation model, though) or the brand new Hornady.

My backup rifle measure is a Johnson Quick Measure (it doesn't do the tiny charges for handguns) and my tertiary backup is an old Pacific/Hornady drum measure with rifle and handgun micrometer stems. I also have and use Lee dippers.

For scales, I have the RCBS digital and a Hornady balance beam. You might say I'm over-prepared, but that's my AF pilot training kicking in. I like to have secondary, standby, backup, alternate, and emergency alternatives - minimum.

parson48
05-14-2010, 11:29 AM
I like the Lee perfect. In fact, that's what I use on my Dillon 550b. It is consistent and easy to use. However, I have not tried it with stick powder. I only use stick for rifle loads and I typically weigh each charge when loading for rifle.

mdi
05-14-2010, 11:31 AM
Chris in Va, That works for you and has worked for me in the past. The problem is that it is slow and with any scoop you are going to have a different weight. ZI shoot cowboy now and it is a volume loading thing here in Louisiana because we shoot 3 or more times a month. I now use a RCBS BP scale for my Dillon, a Lyman 55 BP for my shotguns and three electronic scales to keep them in check. The Lyman is the hardest scale to adjust but it is also one of the most accurate because of three measureing drums adjustments.

I've been using homemade and Lee Powder scoops for quite a while, for no reason other than I like to. If you read the directions and scoop the same every time, repeatability is easy. For some of my scoops I've customized them to either measure a little more ( ream or drill the cavity) or a little less (cut the mouth of the scoop or glue BBs or drop epoxy in the bottom). I also have a Lee PPM, an
old Hornady (uses bushings in a slide), and another one that I don't remember the mfg. or where it is, but since I enjoy reloading and don't have to be in any hurry, I use whatever suits my fancy at the time.

AZ-Stew
05-14-2010, 11:34 AM
Measures and scales are two entirely different things.

That's why I asked. I've been handloading for nearly 40 years and I've never heard of a balance beam measure. Closest thing I can think of to that concept is one of the several digital scale/dispenser combos. I'm thinking Buckshot meant accurate charges could be best achieved by weighing each charge, but that's not what he said. Just curious. If there's something new out there, I'd like to know about it.

Regards,

Stew

Rocky Raab
05-14-2010, 11:52 AM
Fly, allow me to elaborate a bit on volume versus weight.

Let's imagine that we very carefully set up a measure (doesn't matter which) to dispense exactly 50.0 grains of powder. That charge gives us exactly 3,000 fps. A month or so later, we put the same powder in the same measure, and to our consternation, the charge now weighs only 48.5 grains. We re-adjust the measure to again dispense 50.0 grains, load some rounds - and now the load gives 3,200 fps, locks the bolt, and blows the primer!

What gives?

The answer is simple. In the interim, our opened can of powder lost both water moisture and solvents. So the volume of powder that USED TO weigh 50.0 grains now only weighs 48.5. When we changed the measure's cavity volume to dispense 50.0 of the now-lighter powder, we actually dispensed what WOULD HAVE BEEN 51.5 grains of that same powder before it lost weight. The energy content of the powder stayed the same, so the added number of lighter-weight powder kernels took us over maximum pressure. (Conversely, if we had not weighed the powder, a 48.5-grain charge of the dry powder would still have delivered a safe 3,000 fps because even though lighter, it would hold the same amount of actual powder.)

It can also go the other way, obviously. Work up a load for dry powder and the same WEIGHT of powder from a can of moisture and solvent-rich new powder will deliver lower pressures and velocity - because there is less powder and more "other stuff" in that total weight.

All this is part of why load books vary, why the same load delivers different results for different reloaders, and why we must always re-work load data when we change lots of powder (or anything else). Because "the exact same thing" - isn't.

dabsond
05-14-2010, 01:53 PM
Here is a link to a pretty good article/review of some leading powder drops.

http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting2005/powdermeasure/pdf/powdermeasure.pdf

ghh3rd
05-14-2010, 11:40 PM
My Lee Precision Perfect Powder measure seems Ok, but has anyone else noticed that it sheds the smaller powder through a small hole? Just a small amount, but it took me a while to figure out where it was coming from.

mike in co
05-15-2010, 12:37 AM
One other thing.Have any of you ever checked to see how close factory powder loads
measure?

I know no one wants to break open a new box of bullets just to see.But I thought maybe
some reloading Mag might have done a test to see.Hummmmmmmmm?



have you ever seen anyone win a benchrest match with factory ammo ???


there is some match ammo that works for cmp style shooting...but that is only moa.

hunting ammo is minute of deer.

all factory ammo is MEASURED powder...not weight.

most br shooters measure, but not all there is a trend to lab scales.

i have no idea what cast boolit shooters do in competition. i wegh when i cannot throw powder consistantly( powder dependent)

mike in co

mike in co
05-15-2010, 12:41 AM
Fly, allow me to elaborate a bit on volume versus weight.

Let's imagine that we very carefully set up a measure (doesn't matter which) to dispense exactly 50.0 grains of powder. That charge gives us exactly 3,000 fps. A month or so later, we put the same powder in the same measure, and to our consternation, the charge now weighs only 48.5 grains. We re-adjust the measure to again dispense 50.0 grains, load some rounds - and now the load gives 3,200 fps, locks the bolt, and blows the primer!

What gives?

The answer is simple. In the interim, our opened can of powder lost both water moisture and solvents. So the volume of powder that USED TO weigh 50.0 grains now only weighs 48.5. When we changed the measure's cavity volume to dispense 50.0 of the now-lighter powder, we actually dispensed what WOULD HAVE BEEN 51.5 grains of that same powder before it lost weight. The energy content of the powder stayed the same, so the added number of lighter-weight powder kernels took us over maximum pressure. (Conversely, if we had not weighed the powder, a 48.5-grain charge of the dry powder would still have delivered a safe 3,000 fps because even though lighter, it would hold the same amount of actual powder.)

It can also go the other way, obviously. Work up a load for dry powder and the same WEIGHT of powder from a can of moisture and solvent-rich new powder will deliver lower pressures and velocity - because there is less powder and more "other stuff" in that total weight.

All this is part of why load books vary, why the same load delivers different results for different reloaders, and why we must always re-work load data when we change lots of powder (or anything else). Because "the exact same thing" - isn't.



dang rocky, i have been telling people that for years and they say i'm crazy....

try lot to lot on canister powder.
your setting on can one is .450 on the micrometer to provide 25 grains.
can two takes .460 to get 25 grains but the billet now goes faster......

go back to .450 on can two and the bullet has the same velocity as can one.....

mike in co

303Guy
05-15-2010, 01:39 AM
I've said it before - I like the way Fly thinks and I like his questions! This time it's lead to Rocky Raab enlightening me on why my powder measure changes its throw weight!
Thanks to the both of you!:drinks:

Rocky Raab
05-15-2010, 10:43 AM
Pleasure's all mine.

Beekeeper
05-15-2010, 10:50 AM
OK Rocky,
Do you adhere to the only use a measure and scale or do you mainly use a set of dippers and check ever 5 or 6th charge on a scale?

Jim

Rocky Raab
05-15-2010, 12:00 PM
I use an electronic dispenser, which doesn't use volume at all, and automatically weighs to the nearest tenth of a grain. That checks EVERY charge.

Checking every fifth or tenth charge only verifies every fifth or tenth charge. That's like using radar on every tenth car and assuming that all the others are obeying the speed limit. What do you assume if one checked charge comes up "off"? Do you assume that's the only one, or all the ones since the last one you checked - or all of them, period - because maybe it was the other checked ones that were wrong. Hmmmmmm.

When my digital set is down (like now - it finally died after ten years of use) I'll use either my Johnson Quick Measure or my old Pacific/Hornady drum measure. Once I get a measure set, I'll throw and check five in a row. If they come out correct, I just start loading.

I use and like dippers for handgun loads. I'll check that I'm getting the charge I want against a scale, but then I just dip and load. My technique is VERY consistent - and I don't use dippers for maximum loads.

captain-03
05-15-2010, 12:13 PM
I started with the Lyman 55 and used it for 25+ years .. it started to do strange things. Several years back I purchased a Lee as a backup and it had been sitting in the box. I pulled it out and seeing how cheaply made it was, put it back in the box and put the box back on the shelf and purchased another Lyman 55; big disappointment - just can't seem to get the darn thing to hold a setting. Pulled the Lee back out of the box and gave it a try -- PERFECT!! The Lee now sits on my bench and I will order another (when they go on sale again) for my backup ... the two Lyman 55s are now in my "junk" chest ...

dudel
05-15-2010, 04:34 PM
I've gone through several, including the Lee Perfect and the Hornady. I settled on the Dillon. Works great for me and the powders I use.

Fly
05-15-2010, 06:07 PM
captain-03 Ole man Lee is one smart man.I have worked in research & development
most of my life before, finally retirement.

I assume your comment of it being made cheaply comes from it being it made from plastic.
But plastic has can be a advantage in many ways.The first being cost.It also won't rust
or corrode.

As far as being function it seems to work just fine.The only thing I did was modify the
stamped metal stand.I made a steel base & welded gussets to the sides of the stamped
stand to make it ridged.

The thing with Lee products that amaze me are they cost way less, & work as good or
better in most things I have used.

Fly
But being I never used one I did not know how it compared to others.

Rocky Raab
05-15-2010, 06:41 PM
Good friend Fly, I think you meant to write "to make it rigid" did you not?

Capt, I took your cue and uploaded an avatar. I was a Captain for almost ten years, delayed to Major because I left active duty while my promotion board was sitting, and then had to wait two more years to meet a promo board in the Reserves, and THEN almost a year to pin on the leaves.

Detour over; back to the regular thread ...

Fly
05-15-2010, 06:59 PM
I'm in good company with you two.My son 1992 West Point Grad.No longer in the military.

Tom-ADC
05-15-2010, 07:02 PM
I have the Lyman 55 BP version use it for everything, very quanity product, I also have the Dillon made one on my 550 press.

felix
05-15-2010, 07:15 PM
Serious production factories use centrifugal force to measure powder for rounds. Think of the Chinese firecracker wheel. ... felix

303Guy
05-15-2010, 09:18 PM
I use an RCBS drum measure. To make it accurate and/or consistent I fixed a small, out of ballance motor to the hopper as a vibrator. That sorted it out! It stays consistent from full to near empty.

Fly
05-15-2010, 10:55 PM
303 some good hip hop music with a lot of bass works also my friend.Wear ear protection though.

Buckshot
05-16-2010, 02:35 AM
Buckshot,

I know what a balance beam scale is, but what's a balance beam measure? (Same thing?? And , no, I'm not yanking your chain. If it's something I've never seen, I'm interested in the concept.)

Regards,

Stew

..........Nope Stew, no new invention, just fast typing[smilie=l: I meant balance beam SCALE. The electronic scales are wonderus things, and I've had a Dillon Determinator for over 10 years and it's been very useable if you let it warm up before using it. I bought one of the newer Lyman digital dispensers and it's okay. When zeroing, on occassion it will flutter between 111.2 and 111.3 on the pan weight. I'll just let it sit there and do something else for a bit, and it finally settles down and decides which one it wants, HA!

However I still like a GOOD balance beam scale too. It's just that for my type of shooting in 99% of my firearms a tenth grain just ain't gonna be that big a deal!

...............Buckshot

Elkins45
05-16-2010, 08:50 AM
I'm using a RCBS Uniflow for low volume loads because that's the measure the gun shop had in stock when I bought my gear back in 1986. I suspect my wife will sell it on eBay after I'm gone---it's hard to wear out a powder measure.

For volume pistol production I'm using a Lee Auto Disk with an adjustable charge bar I bought from E. Arthur Brown sometime in the early 90's. This was before Lee made their own adjustable insert. I do most of my pistol loading on a Lee turret press and I use the auto disk to drop my charges. The poor hopper just recently met the concrete floor and is held together with epoxy and toothpicks. When it finally lets go Im going to buy the upgrade kit and put that nice round hopper on it.

DLCTEX
05-16-2010, 09:06 AM
You will like the Pro Auto Disc upgrade for the ability to cut off powder flow and the adjustable charge bar.

whisler
05-16-2010, 08:56 PM
+1 on the Pro Auto Disc Upgrade. I like mine a lot.

TCLouis
05-16-2010, 09:36 PM
I started loading rifle with Milsurp 4831 and a Lyman 55 powder measure . . . A combination that was dreamed up in HE{{ and made a powder trickler an absolute necessity.

Now it is RCBS measures and mostly ball powder. Ball powder is like measuring water in a tube, same volume, same weight every time.

Chronograph has shown me that even with weighed charges there is significant velocity variations in some loadings and yet they are accurate.

Rocky Raab
05-17-2010, 09:12 AM
There are so many OTHER variables with every shot that charge weight variations are only a part of velocity variations. I've long established to my own satisfaction that a powder variation as much as 1% above or below the desired weight has no effect you can positively isolate.

In other words, you can't say definitively that a powder weight change was THE reason a given shot is "off."

parson48
05-17-2010, 11:25 AM
Correction: I stated that I used the Lee Perfect measure with my Dillon 550b. After checking, I find that it is the Lee Pro Disk measure with adjustable charge bar. Humble apologies.

I do have the Lee Perfect measure that I use for rifle loads, which I do single stage.