Miss-fires from compressed charge?

[the_ursus]

I ended up with a couple miss-fires at the range the other day that had me puzzled.
.44 mag
LPM primers
21gr H110
340gr cast

I know the powder was crowding the bullet since I seated them a hair deeper than normal and could feel the resistance just before they crimped. Could the lack of air space with that slow burning powder actually cause poor ignition?

Anyway, going back to the range with another batch seated a little shallower.

[462]

Is that a published load?

[felix]

Yes. Small balls especially act as a damper to the primer's shock wave required for ignition. Primer's flame temp likely snuffed out as well. About all ball powders are laden with deterrent. If you insist in making those loads, use a primer that will force the boolit out of the case making some room for a better powder burn. Try various primers with a magnum designation. ... felix

[HeavyMetal]

I agree with Felix ball powders are harder to light.

However I think we need to do a little detective work here before we condemn the load just because it's a "slow" ball powder.

Type weapon being used?? Has it been "smoothed" up any? Has it got some end play in the cylinder? Hoping of course that you have a revolver.

Brass cleaning: are you adding anything to your media if your are tumbling your case's?

Where are you storing powder and primers? Any where near products like WD-40, carb or brake cleaner?

Boolit lube, what are you using?


Here's why I'm asking these questions: an action job usually gets lighter springs sometimes to light. you then get mis fires.

Brass cleaners, like Brasso, can and will leave a residue in the case that will affect the primer ask me how I know!

Automotive products, like WD-40, can "atomize" and drift across a ten foot garage with no problem and contaminate both powder and primers again ask me how I know.

Boolit lube, like liquid alox, in a hot envirment can run down into the case and contaminate the powder one of several reasons I no longer use an alox based boolit lube!

All of these issues have given me mis fires at one time or another.

Thats why products like WD-40 are stored in a sealed cabinet outside my garage where I
load.

Used Brasso in the 80's because it really cleaned my brass well best looking case's I ever got out of a Dillon tumbler but I started getting an odd misfire every 100 rounds or so in every caliber I loaded for at the time. Dumped the walnut shell got fresh and never used Brasso again and the misfires went away!! Go figure.

Tuned a couple S&W early in my life by simply "adjusting" the tension screw on the mainspring smoothed up real nice but to much and you get light double action hits and no bang.

I've also seen Smith revolvers with such huge cylinder movement that the hammer actually moved the cylinder forward rather than fire the round!

Lots of other issues may cause mis fires as well but the ones I mention are most common in my experience.

If the gun checks out and the storage of both powder and primer is not in any way called into question and you are certain your boolit lube is not getting hot and running back into the case then it's time to look at the powder itself.

Check it's age, if you can, by the lot number and give it a good smell to make sure it hasn't gone "sour" if this all seems good then I would suggest experimenting with hotter primers.

[mike in co]

it was a mag primer....LPM.....

[HeavyMetal]

Not all primers are created equal!

Some do burn hotter than others and aren't magnum. Lee's statements concerning primers in the tools they make have sure convinced me of this.

When I want to light "big" charges of WW 296 or H-110 in my 44 loads I usually go right to a federal 155 mag primer. I have no idea what the OP is using but LPM suggests Winchester??

As I stated I'm thinking other issues but curious to what the OP posts next.

[lwknight]

Some primers just don't light off at all. DUH!!
Knock out the misfired primer and smash it with a hammer. You will get a bang!!
It has nothing to do with the powder.

Magmun primers are commonly harder than non mag primers. Your firing pin strike may be borderline.

[JIMinPHX]

I've been loading compressed charges of H-110 in the .44 mag with WLP primers & j-word slugs for at least 10 years now. I've had nothing but great results. I've recently done the same with cast boolits & had equally reliable ignition.

Do your spent primers have good firing pin indentations in them? Are you sure that you seated your primers firmly in the primer pockets?

[Bass Ackward]

Old timers beat this by using a piece of news print to cover the hole. Said that it improved ignition on the chrono both ES and SD.

[243winxb]

Tumbling media in the primer pocket?

[bigdog454]

Had similar problem with my 454, changed to Win primers and problem went away. Try Win primers and if you still have that problem then you have contamination of some sort.

[JIMinPHX]

Old timers beat this by using a piece of news print to cover the hole. Said that it improved ignition on the chrono both ES and SD.

My .44 mag compressed charges of H-110 gave me less than 50 fps extreme deviation out of a full string of shooting. I don't see how you could get much better than that.

[WARD O]

I would tend to agree with Heavy Metal in that it is likely more of an outside problem rather than the load itself. A LPM primer installed correctly and struck by adequate force in a proper chamber should not have a problem igniting the H110 powder charge.

I happened to look at a current Federal Ammunition catalog last week where they were listing all of their premium cartridges. In that listing they specified the primer they used in all the loads. All of their premium loads in the 44 magnum used Federal 150 primers - not the magnum primer! I found this enlightening. I have read references here from others that the Federal 150 primer is just fine for use with H110/296 but now here is the factory backing up that claim!

Back to the problem, I think that perhaps a too light firing pin strike, a faulty primer, or something similar is likely to blame for these misfires.

I once had a customer that was experiencing problems with his 12 gauge trap loads not igniting properly. He would shoot and the wad and shot would exit the barrel just fast enough to open up the pattern and fall to the ground about 20 feet from the muzzle. We were unable to find anything in his routine that would cause this problem. Finally I visited his house and observed his reloading setup. His wife had some lines strung across the basement over his reloading bench and would hang wet laundry on them ocassionaly. Apparantly he had left his powder container open and water had dripped from the laundry into the powder. I impressed upon him the importance of keeping your powder can closed tightly and we removed a couple of the wife's lines, got some new powder, and all was right with the world.

Ward

[44man]

Been shooting 310 to 330 gr boolits from my .44 for years with 21.5 to 21 gr of 296 and I use Fed 150 primers.
Chronograph readings with a 320 gr LBT and 21.5 gr of 296 show a 29 fps extreme spread.
I used the same primer for all my years of IHMSA with 240 gr bullets too.
This sounds to me like a job was done on the gun for the trigger pull using reduced power springs. I use a 26# Wolfe over power mainspring. I have stressed for years and years to NEVER weaken a mainspring if you want accuracy and dependability. I changed my SBH spring once a year when shooting IHMSA.
I would think a 340 gr boolit would do better at 20 to 20.5 gr anyway.
I tend to think the primers did not fire. A mag primer can push boolits out of the brass if the powder does not light off.

Ward O, do you think Federal knows something or have they been reading my posts? :drinks:
I have had zero ignition problems with the 150 primer in the .454 using cut down .460 brass, in the .475 and also the 45-70 but a mag primer in the larger cases is more accurate.
The .44 is too small for a mag primer. Even a .45 Colt works better with the 150 when using 296.

[44man]

Yes. Small balls especially act as a damper to the primer's shock wave required for ignition. Primer's flame temp likely snuffed out as well. About all ball powders are laden with deterrent. If you insist in making those loads, use a primer that will force the boolit out of the case making some room for a better powder burn. Try various primers with a magnum designation. ... felix
Felix, for once, just once, I have to disagree with this. A primer alone moving the boolit is what I do NOT want. If not for the cylinder gap, it is a set up for S.E.E. A rifle or single shot can blow up.
Not only will every case have a different capacity from different boolit movement, giving large ES's and SD's but the powder charge can act like a secondary projectile.
H110 and 296 are not hard to ignite.

[44man]

Had similar problem with my 454, changed to Win primers and problem went away. Try Win primers and if you still have that problem then you have contamination of some sort.
The .454 case is an abortion with the SR primer. You can not work loads of H110 or 296. You must use only max charges or you can stick a boolit in the bore with no powder ignition.
You are borderline with the WSR primer and others say you must use only Remington SRM primers. Either way you still have a problem with poor accuracy.
We cut down .460 brass and went to the Federal 155 LPM primer and all book loads could be worked and accuracy was 200% better across the board. Even the Fed 150 would light off every load but the 155 is more accurate.
Your problem was a primer ignition but no powder burn.
(Unless you weakened the mainspring!)

[RICKLANDES]

I cannot help but wonder if you have loaded these rounds with a rifle primer rather than that of a pistol. It will cause exactly as you have described.
I am sure all are aware a rifle primer has a thicker cup than that of a pistol. They are not interchangable.

[RICKLANDES]

The .44 is too small for a mag primer. Even a .45 Colt works better with the 150 when using 296.

I cold temps a magnum primer is a better choice for a .44 IMHO.

[44man]

We were taking pictures of the muzzle flash from a large caliber revolver near dark, It took my friend many pictures before he caught it just right.
You can plainly see the flash from the gap and muzzle---real nice BUT when we looked at the pictures we seen something strange.
The hammer was back near the full cock position! Even though the gun had not risen in recoil.
This was with a factory spring. It means that with every shot there is a double hit on the firing pin and primer.
Now who would expect the hammer was coming back?
I installed an over power spring but we have not taken any new pictures.
Now to make this even stranger, the cylinder did not rotate.
The hammer was back past the point where the cylinder latch would be out of the notch.
I have seen double strikes on primers shot out of S&W revolvers. The main strike and then a light one to the side and that tells me the cylinder moved and the hammer bounced.
Go ahead and fool with mainsprings, we have no idea what the gun is doing when fired.
The left is from a S&W 29, see the double strike? The right primer also has a double strike from a single action. It has moved it just off center and deepened it. Other primers are centered without the depth.

[44man]

I cold temps a magnum primer is a better choice for a .44 IMHO.
I have tended to agree but have never proven it and I shot all winter in Ohio. But we didn't have 30 or more below zero.
I have shot in below zero but that is only Ohio weather.

[44man]

I cannot help but wonder if you have loaded these rounds with a rifle primer rather than that of a pistol. It will cause exactly as you have described.
I am sure all are aware a rifle primer has a thicker cup than that of a pistol. They are not interchangable.
The proper mainspring will fire a rifle primer, even the 23# standard in a single action.
Single actions made for a rifle primer will have a 28# spring.

[Bass Ackward]

My .44 mag compressed charges of H-110 gave me less than 50 fps extreme deviation out of a full string of shooting. I don't see how you could get much better than that.


One thing is for certain: If you ever bother to cut news print small enough for a pistol case, but large enough to cover the bottom so powder can not get under it and then go to all the trouble to put it inside and work it down to the bottom (PIA) so that it lays flat and you did this for handgun ammo for gosh sakes, ........... then I would say that someone MUST HAVE believed that they had a problem.

On the flip side, I guess that once you buy something, you gotta figure out how to make use of it. I do anyway.

[RICKLANDES]

I have tended to agree but have never proven it and I shot all winter in Ohio. But we didn't have 30 or more below zero.
I have shot in below zero but that is only Ohio weather.

In the past year Precision Shooting mag showed a series of primers being fired and the flash generated from each type. There were some very surprizing differences in the observable flashes produced. If memory serves those with the higher amount of flash tended to increase internal pressures above those with less flash. Intuitively, that stands to reason. They commented some on primer usage and sd variations. Nothing confirmed the mag primer in cooler temps hypothesis...that I can recall. (but then again I am unsure what was for breakfast this a.m.)

I have done this for years, but never tested standard vs mag in a cold temp over the chrony. I guess it is one of those things I have taken at face value. It does not confirm it as truth. I have hunted as cold as -17 below with a wind chill to the mid- minus 30's. I have not had a problem with things going bang when they were supposed to.

The odd thing is powder generally increases in pressure in warmth and cold with a "U" shaped pressure curve (all else consistent). It would almost stand to reason a cool and a warmer temp would merit a standard primer for pressure considerations and a mag in average temps. However, that would relate back to powder type.

I have shot 44's for a bit over 30 years in about a dozen differing pistols (and a few rifles). I cannot see that a magnum primer has ever had a negative impact on firing. Most problems have come in the form of light springs (even with some of the custom Redhawk coil spring kits) or poorly seated primers. I also have not seen where a standard primer was a plus.

I guess one would be advised to contact the manufacturer to see if the components that make a magnum primer differ from a standard or just have more of the ignition chemicals in the cup. I have no clue.

I have used in the main 110, 296, blue dot, lil' gun, 2400 even tried black powder once for fun. All went "bang".

I have to believe powder type will be a better guide to mag v reg when selecting a primer versus temp. even though I consistently use mag primers.

[44man]

In the past year Precision Shooting mag showed a series of primers being fired and the flash generated from each type. There were some very surprizing differences in the observable flashes produced. If memory serves those with the higher amount of flash tended to increase internal pressures above those with less flash. Intuitively, that stands to reason. They commented some on primer usage and sd variations. Nothing confirmed the mag primer in cooler temps hypothesis...that I can recall. (but then again I am unsure what was for breakfast this a.m.)

I have done this for years, but never tested standard vs mag in a cold temp over the chrony. I guess it is one of those things I have taken at face value. It does not confirm it as truth. I have hunted as cold as -17 below with a wind chill to the mid- minus 30's. I have not had a problem with things going bang when they were supposed to.

The odd thing is powder generally increases in pressure in warmth and cold with a "U" shaped pressure curve (all else consistent). It would almost stand to reason a cool and a warmer temp would merit a standard primer for pressure considerations and a mag in average temps. However, that would relate back to powder type.

I have shot 44's for a bit over 30 years in about a dozen differing pistols (and a few rifles). I cannot see that a magnum primer has ever had a negative impact on firing. Most problems have come in the form of light springs (even with some of the custom Redhawk coil spring kits) or poorly seated primers. I also have not seen where a standard primer was a plus.

I guess one would be advised to contact the manufacturer to see if the components that make a magnum primer differ from a standard or just have more of the ignition chemicals in the cup. I have no clue.

I have used in the main 110, 296, blue dot, lil' gun, 2400 even tried black powder once for fun. All went "bang".

I have to believe powder type will be a better guide to mag v reg when selecting a primer versus temp. even though I consistently use mag primers.
Every powder will change burn rates with temperature, some get faster when hot and some get faster when cold. It is out of our control.
Groups will change accordingly throughout the year.
But you confuse going "bang" with accuracy. All of my work is only for accuracy first. There are weather conditions where I have groups open and I am not about to work loads for every temperature.
However I have tested primers for years in cold and hot. In no test has the magnum primer shot better in the .44.
I shot these when it was below zero and even though my normal groups opened, the mag primer still did worse. I just do not know how to explain it better. Shooting the .44 since 1956 has given me the same results over and over. I have been through over a dozen .44's during the years and not a single one showed accuracy with a mag primer.
You have to define the gun going bang and hitting what you shoot at because there is a difference.

[44man]

Some would jump for joy with my 50 yard groups at 25 yards.
There are some fantastic shooters here and a lot of knowledge yet nobody has ever proven the mag primer in the .44 shoots better.
It is a simple matter to show what you do as you change components.
I go through at least a 5" thick stack of targets a year just testing.

[the_ursus]

Thanks for the insight guys, just a few comments.
I'm shooting a SRH with CCI LPM primers.
I don't use media for cleaning.
I do store my primers in the same cabinet as my cleaning supplies (no wd40 but hoppes)
Storage temp is 65
I've never adjusted the mainspring
Powder is fresh

I've never had a problem with misfires till now, but not really sure if it's a "problem", it could be just a couple of bad primers. I did have one CCI LP primer not ignite a couple days ago with a plinker charge. I took that primer out and smacked it with a hammer and still no bang, no mistery there anymore.

That same day, I put a dozen more of the offending loads I originally posted about through my SRH and they all did fine. I did decide to seat them out just a hair to reduce pressure on the powder.

Hopefully I didn't contaminate my primers with my cleaning supplies too nearby. I think I'd be sick...

[felix]

Do NOT store solvents next to primers, powder, etc. Don't even think about it. ... felix

[the_ursus]

Do NOT store solvents next to primers, powder, etc. Don't even think about it. ... felix

Primers were stored the next shelf up, well I know better now. Arrrgh.....

[RICKLANDES]

44 man...Sorry if I have created confusion...I was not addressing the accuracy issue with regard to the going "bang" comment. I just could not see how a compressed load of 110 would NOT go bang with regards to a compressed load. Compression increases the burn rate, not snuff the primers flash.

The accuracy you are seeking may well be better accross the board with a non mag primer...all most all benchrest shooters use a non-mag for their work if one follows the stats...BUT with regards to firing under a cold condition do you know if a magnum primer is a better choice?

I can deal with a given amount of accuracy reduction for the trade off of a must go bang under cold temps conditions as I am first and foremost a hunter. A 2" groups at 100 yards versus a 4 inch group will make little difference to the game I am after. Also, I am guessing that your best target loads are not the top velocity/energy loads. Again I am after top energy with accepatble accuracy for my purpose.

You shared the cool temps testing you have done. Could you give an estimate on what you might expect as a group change with just a primer change? I know that this is at best just for your pistols and a limited amt of testing under X conditions, but I for one would find it to be of interest.

I have found variations of powder load per pistol have had a larger impact than primers. Perhaps I shall have to build my best and then play with the primers.

I appreciate your sharing and insights.

[fredj338]

A mis-fire as in the primer fired but the pwoder did not or a mis fire where the primer never fired? In the later, it has nothing to do w/ a compresed load. I would suspect the primer or your gun. If it fired & the powder failed to ignite, maybe the primer, maybe not enough crimp? I have shot a lot of compressed H110/W296, the only issue I ever had were too light a powder charge & light crimp.

[lwknight]

Until recently , I never had a misfire except where it was obviously my fault with some crimped 30-06 cases. The last years primers seem to be different. Probably a lot of it has more to do with 24/7 production and less maintenance if production equipment.
Baf primers are not uncommon these days.
I find misfred factory ammo on the range quite often when I check the trash cans for brass.

The bottom line to my reply is to say that it makes no sense to think that a slightly compressed load has anything to do with the powder not lighting.

[the_ursus]

Roger that, compression means nothing in regards to ignition.

(got a first time miss-firerer here)

[44man]

44 man...Sorry if I have created confusion...I was not addressing the accuracy issue with regard to the going "bang" comment. I just could not see how a compressed load of 110 would NOT go bang with regards to a compressed load. Compression increases the burn rate, not snuff the primers flash.

The accuracy you are seeking may well be better accross the board with a non mag primer...all most all benchrest shooters use a non-mag for their work if one follows the stats...BUT with regards to firing under a cold condition do you know if a magnum primer is a better choice?

I can deal with a given amount of accuracy reduction for the trade off of a must go bang under cold temps conditions as I am first and foremost a hunter. A 2" groups at 100 yards versus a 4 inch group will make little difference to the game I am after. Also, I am guessing that your best target loads are not the top velocity/energy loads. Again I am after top energy with accepatble accuracy for my purpose.

You shared the cool temps testing you have done. Could you give an estimate on what you might expect as a group change with just a primer change? I know that this is at best just for your pistols and a limited amt of testing under X conditions, but I for one would find it to be of interest.

I have found variations of powder load per pistol have had a larger impact than primers. Perhaps I shall have to build my best and then play with the primers.

I appreciate your sharing and insights.
No problem because I CAN'T tell you where the magnum primer works better because of the cold.
I have worked charges from starting loads to over max with all primers and results through many, many years has always been the same. Magnum primers in the .44 have, on the average, tripled group sizes.
Back when there was only 2400, it did not seem as drastic but there was still a difference. But I was fat, dumb and happy then, not needing the accuracy for IHMSA that came later. That game turned revolver shooting on it's head for me.
I fell into the trap of loading manuals that said the .44 needed a mag primer. But groups were never what I needed so I started to do the work. That was all with jacketed bullets for IHMSA until later on. I shot cast before but thought jacketed was the way for long range. Not so, cast shoots as good or better.
I just hunt now but the thing is that the IHMSA experience never went away. It was the greatest revolver learning experience of my life and I will always be thankful for it. I will always be thankful for Elgin Gates, Blacky Sleeva, Terry Bradshaw and all the wonderful fellas. It just got too expensive and I had to drive too far.
I feel my job is to pass on some things just for all of you to try, but I get friction all the time. I don't ask for anything, just try.

[HeavyMetal]

Yep Hoppes, or any of the liquid or aresol, cleaners will migrate especially in an enclosed cabinet!

Time to change storage areas! I keep all cleaning stuff, gun or auto, in an outside cabinet under the covered back patio area.

Easy to do in So Cal only rains 6 times a year.

[RICKLANDES]

Thanks 44 man!